Senna - the movie

WIDD · Post by **WIDD** » 13 Jun 2011, 16:30

I really enjoyed Senna. As I missed him by about four years it was really interesting to see how F1 used to look above and beyond whatever we see in BBC's classic highlights. Wasn't really sure about the portrayal of Balestre and Prost (especially Prost)-a very partisan film undeniably (disappointing they never showed the clip where he admitted he deliberately smashed into Prost), but still really enjoyable and insightful.

karsten · Post by **karsten** » 18 Jun 2011, 21:42

i just got the chance to see it and i'm extremely disappointed by how they forgot berger's apport and friendship to the great champion.

he would have been less of a man without such friendship.

they also didn't mention senna having an austrian flag on his body at imola 94 and berger's tribute at hockenheim. i really don't get why they forgot such an important part of his life.

also in the end i saw the film as a little too much "brazil centered"....

DOSBoot · Post by **DOSBoot** » 18 Jun 2011, 22:28

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 18 Jun 2011, 22:30

Merge this with the previously existing thread?

karsten · Post by **karsten** » 18 Jun 2011, 22:35

i apologize... i guess i missed the previous thread

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 18 Jun 2011, 23:28

I've merged karsten's thread with noisebox's original thread.

And I agree that they could have dedicated at least some minutes to the Senna/Berger friendship, but mayb ethey didn't want to make the film too long and went straight to the essentials? However, if (and that is a big if) that was the case, I don't think people would have complained if the film was 3 hours long (maybe a Director's Cut will be released when the film's BluRay comes out with added parts about Senna's life, including Berger's jokes?).

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 19 Jun 2011, 12:22

WIDD wrote:a very partisan film undeniably (disappointing they never showed the clip where he admitted he deliberately smashed into Prost), but still really enjoyable and insightful.

I agree with this. It was a brilliant film, but my one gripe was that I think they needed to make it more explicit that it was deliberate. This is really a fascinating point considering his religion and safety-conscious nature, and I think it would have actually added to the film.

I also would have liked it if they talked more about how Senna and Prost probably would have been good friends in the future. They sort of implied it by showing Prost at the funeral and mentioning that he was a trustee of the Senna charity, but could have made it more clear, in my opinion.

Some people in the crowd (at the Sydney Film Festival today) cheered when the commentator announced Senna as 1990 WDC just after the crash, and I don't think that would happen if they showed footage of Schumacher at Adelaide 1994 for example.

One other oddity that maybe someone can explain. When the film talks about Senna arguing about the pole position side at Suzuka in 1990, it shows some footage of Senna arguing with a FIA official about the grid position, but this footage is actually at the Hockenheim pit exit... Maybe someone could explain this?

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 19 Jun 2011, 16:43

Ed24 wrote:
One other oddity that maybe someone can explain. When the film talks about Senna arguing about the pole position side at Suzuka in 1990, it shows some footage of Senna arguing with a FIA official about the grid position, but this footage is actually at the Hockenheim pit exit... Maybe someone could explain this?

That's interesting. I didn't catch that one when I watched it -but it certainly isn't Suzuka.

My guess is that the same problem arised at the Hockenheimring, and they had that archive footage while they didn't have anything from Suzuka.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 19 Jun 2011, 18:04

I have now watched this a few times and sadly I have not enjoyed it as much as most people.
I didn't find any of the footage particularly fresh, I didn't appreciate the way they had stylized it and added sound effects to certain clips (such as crashes). I didn't feel the disembodied voices in the background added anything, and I thought the ending sequences were quite crude.
Nonetheless, it is good as a racing fan to have something like that hit the mainstream and meet success, as it can do wonders for the sport. But at the same time I feel let down by the massive hype that has surrounded it for the past year.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 20 Jun 2011, 11:03

I agree that some things were a bit crude - those canned sound effects and that false footage about Senna discussing the side from which the pole man -him- would start at Suzuka 1990 on the pit exit (it can be seen the car in which the marshall is is an Opel Astra, but I didn't pay enough attention at the time). If they didn't have footage from Suzuka 1990 with Senna discussing that issue, they should have omitted it. While it was definately enjoyable, some things seemed like if they were there just to give it a more mainstream apparence.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 21 Jun 2011, 22:48

Just seen it...

...Imola 89, one glaring omission.

Senna's jump from Karting to the 1984 Monaco GP, it happens like that(!?).

I've come to the conclusion that Prost was a bigger c[whoahthere]t than I originally thought.
Balestre......just flat out c[now your just being crude]t anyway.

Nothing was made of his conflicts with other drivers, Schumacher and Irvine for instance...

Xuxa "A kiss for 89, a kiss for 90, a kiss for 91, a kiss for 92, a kiss for 93..." No kiss for 94(?!)...

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 21 Jun 2011, 23:44

ADx_Wales wrote:I've come to the conclusion that Prost was a bigger c[whoahthere]t than I originally thought.

And this is why I am suspicious of this movie. Any villanisation of Prost in such a movie would come either from false information or jealousy that Prost simply was better.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 22 Jun 2011, 00:38

ADx_Wales wrote:Xuxa "A kiss for 89, a kiss for 90, a kiss for 91, a kiss for 92, a kiss for 93..." No kiss for 94(?!)...

That part gave me goosebumps...

madmark1974 · Post by **madmark1974** » 22 Jun 2011, 08:46

Klon wrote:
ADx_Wales wrote:I've come to the conclusion that Prost was a bigger c[whoahthere]t than I originally thought.

And this is why I am suspicious of this movie. Any villanisation of Prost in such a movie would come either from false information or jealousy that Prost simply was better.

Well, what was said cannot be un-said, and Prost says some pretty bad things in the film. But I guess a lot of it is down to the context and the editing.

I'm sure Senna did too, but they didn't show any of that ...

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 22 Jun 2011, 12:58

Off at slight tangent, there's talk now of further F1 based movies specifically Hunt/Lauda & a Hunt bio-pic......

What will Hollywood make of them I wonder?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/movies/ ... witterfeed

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 22 Jun 2011, 20:30

Did anyone ever listen to either the Motorsport Magazine Podcast with John Watson as guest, or when John Watson was on the BBC made Senna eulogy at the end of 1994.

John was at the swiss training camp that McLaren go to either at the end of 87 or the start of 88, and Senna was there too, he asked Watson about Prost, Watson said that McLaren is basically built around Prost and Alain himself is close to several of the sponsors. John advised Senna to "bide his time" within the team. Senna suggested otherwise, Senna wanted to out-do Prost at every single oppertunity, and have the team "swing" in favour of Ayrton.

From the reaction of the Frenchman, first at the San Marino GP in 1989 (which wasnt shown in the documentary), and also the 1989 Italian GP, Senna pretty much did what he set out to at McLaren.

karsten · Post by **karsten** » 23 Jun 2011, 19:09

i don't think prost was pictured that badly.

he was just like that more "pratical" than "heroic" in his way of driving.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 24 Jun 2011, 20:03

In other news... Hunt vs Lauda movie, anyone...?

http://adamcooperf1.com/2011/06/23/fros ... uda-movie/

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 24 Jun 2011, 20:59

AndreaModa wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:I would have liked to have seen more from Murray Walker, and less of ESPN's commentators and their mispronounced 'Proust'.

It's not limited to ESPN, mind; Simon Taylor does exactly the same on some of the season review videos, as does "BRIIIIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!" in the 1983 edition. All the bones in my ears scrape furiously whenever I hear it.

Yeah true that's what it reminded me of when I heard it in the cinema, but I think they only said it then because Prost was fairly new on the F1 scene back then. In one of the later season reviews I have (with Stirling Moss so 88 or 89 I think?) Taylor does the commentary and pronounces it right. It's a bit petty but it can get very annoying!

Reminds me of the USGP in 2007. They pronounced Vettel's name "Vhehtehl" rather than the "Vettle" that we have come to know. I think that even Senna's name was pronounced differently in 1984.

Anywhere online that I can watch this movie in English yet? It will never show here in Jamaica, so that's my only hope. Anyone? Pretty please?

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 25 Jun 2011, 09:29

I finally had the chance to watch this on tuesday evening.
It's a superb editing job, no doubt about it. I enjoyed the film, although I found a couple of things irritating, like the annoying engine noise track over some of the interviews and the protrayal of Prost as a villain. I suppose the film is called Senna not Prost but I am not happy that the public-at-large that is aware of the situation only through this film will come away with the wrong idea.
I'm going to see it again tonight.

RAK · Post by **RAK** » 25 Jun 2011, 17:51

AndreaModa wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:I would have liked to have seen more from Murray Walker, and less of ESPN's commentators and their mispronounced 'Proust'.

It's not limited to ESPN, mind; Simon Taylor does exactly the same on some of the season review videos, as does "BRIIIIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!" in the 1983 edition. All the bones in my ears scrape furiously whenever I hear it.

Yeah true that's what it reminded me of when I heard it in the cinema, but I think they only said it then because Prost was fairly new on the F1 scene back then. In one of the later season reviews I have (with Stirling Moss so 88 or 89 I think?) Taylor does the commentary and pronounces it right. It's a bit petty but it can get very annoying!

The Simon Taylor review where he mispronounces Prost's name is for the 1981 season. Simon Taylor did the 1987 review with Peter Ustinov; by then, he was pronouncing it correctly. Of course, Clive James was pronouncing it properly from 1982 onwards...

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 25 Jun 2011, 20:15

I've only just got round to watching the film, it was a very good insight into Senna. The film didn't make Prost look as bad as I thought they would.

I was hoping Gerhard Berger would feature in the film though.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 25 Jun 2011, 21:42

Just seen the movie and the bit i found was shocking was the crump when the car hit the wall also in the cinema everone was so quiet as soon as the bit with the '94 imola weekend came on....

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 25 Jun 2011, 22:02

When I saw it, when Barrichello's crash was shown there was a sharp intake of breath throughout the screen and one guy pretty loudly went 'Sh*t!'. It's pretty violent.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 26 Jun 2011, 11:16

shinji wrote:When I saw it, when Barrichello's crash was shown there was a sharp intake of breath throughout the screen and one guy pretty loudly went 'Sh*t!'. It's pretty violent.

Gasps in Port Talbot aswell, I dont remember it happening at THAT speed.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 26 Jun 2011, 14:29

AH MY GAWD WHY WON'T THEY RELEASE THIS MOVIE IN MY COUNTRY YET!!!

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 26 Jun 2011, 14:37

redbulljack14 wrote:I've only just got round to watching the film, it was a very good insight into Senna. The film didn't make Prost look as bad as I thought they would.

I was hoping Gerhard Berger would feature in the film though.

'Insight' is the one word I wouldn't use. Does this film actually offer any new interpretations or analysis of his life, that hardcore F1 fans didn't already know?

In some ways, the Top Gear film on him offered more analysis of his life.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 26 Jun 2011, 16:31

I also saw the film for the first time last night.

GOOD POINTS:

- Focus on Senna v. Prost a good choice, as that is what Senna is most well-known for. And if it had expanded to cover Senna against Mansell or his camaderie with Berger, it might have started to have just started turning into a documentary about late-1980's F1.
- I had missed most of the Imola weekend at the time due to visiting relatives, so to watch footage in chronological order, and on a big screen, helped to show just what effect earlier events had on those involved, and just how much things got out-of-control that weekend. I also hadn't seen some of those clips before, like Senna getting alongside the pace car and some of the angles of the crashes.

BAD POINTS:

- I now want to watch a documentary in the same style about late 1980's F1.
- Senna's relationship with Berger was a large influence on his life. 5 - 10 minutes on this would not have gone amiss.
- The film mentioned the rivalry between Prost and Senna in 1988, without mentioning just how dominant they were! How could they not have added 5 seconds to the film to say just how far ahead of the rest of the field these two drivers were that year???
-They failed to emphasise that the relationship between Senna and Prost was healing before Senna's death. It was clear that Prost was carrying the coffin, and that he was now a trustee of Senna's charity, but did not say that this all started with Prost's retirement.
- The film talked about how Tamburello was taken easily flat and that a mechanical problem had to be to blame for the accident, as if no accident had happened at this corner before. If I were editing this, I would have added Berger's accident a few years earlier as a kind of foreshadowing of what was to happen, and also to emphasise how unfortunate to have had two deaths the same weekend, while Berger had survived his fireball.

It was a good film, but I would like to see a film with a wider scope, or a series of films with different focuses. 'Lauda', 'Mansell', 'Prost', 'Williams', 'McLaren', 'Ferrari' (in several parts?), 'Lotus', 'Moss', 'Schumacher', etc. Bernie, F1 could benefit from more films like this - lower the copyright fees PLEASE !!!

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 27 Jun 2011, 11:56

dr-baker wrote:I would like to see a film with a wider scope, or a series of films with different focuses. 'Lauda', 'Mansell', 'Prost', 'Williams', 'McLaren', 'Ferrari' (in several parts?), 'Lotus', 'Moss', 'Schumacher', etc.

Also: "Villeneuve", and you all know the one I mean. There must be enough footage in the archives to do him justice.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 27 Jun 2011, 12:09

dinizintheoven wrote:
dr-baker wrote:I would like to see a film with a wider scope, or a series of films with different focuses. 'Lauda', 'Mansell', 'Prost', 'Williams', 'McLaren', 'Ferrari' (in several parts?), 'Lotus', 'Moss', 'Schumacher', etc.

Also: "Villeneuve", and you all know the one I mean. There must be enough footage in the archives to do him justice.

Humm... "The amazing life of Jacques Villeneuve: The Awesome movie"? :lol:

Post by **tommykl** » 27 Jun 2011, 12:30

DanielPT wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:
dr-baker wrote:I would like to see a film with a wider scope, or a series of films with different focuses. 'Lauda', 'Mansell', 'Prost', 'Williams', 'McLaren', 'Ferrari' (in several parts?), 'Lotus', 'Moss', 'Schumacher', etc.

Also: "Villeneuve", and you all know the one I mean. There must be enough footage in the archives to do him justice.

Humm... "The amazing life of Jacques Villeneuve: The Awesome movie"?

That would probably be directed by the Zucker brothers :mrgreen:

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 27 Jun 2011, 13:38

DanielPT wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:
dr-baker wrote:I would like to see a film with a wider scope, or a series of films with different focuses. 'Lauda', 'Mansell', 'Prost', 'Williams', 'McLaren', 'Ferrari' (in several parts?), 'Lotus', 'Moss', 'Schumacher', etc.

Also: "Villeneuve", and you all know the one I mean. There must be enough footage in the archives to do him justice.

Humm... "The amazing life of Jacques Villeneuve: The Awesome movie"?

And we are all thinking of THIS Jacques Villeneuve, aren't we?

minrdi · Post by **minrdi** » 19 Jul 2011, 13:10

This thread's been a bit quiet for a few days so I thought I'd kickstart it back into life!

SENNA is enjoying its Australian premiere tomorrow night in Melbourne - I'll be travelling down to do some work on the red carpet - and I've just gotten off the phone with its director Asif Kapadia, with whom I had a really enjoyable interview.

Thought you'd enjoy being among the first to read it here:
http://richardsf1.com/category/exclusive-interviews/asif-kapadia/

We're also running a giveaway competition to our Australian readers to win one of five double passes to see SENNA in cinemas when its released here from August 11. Details for the giveaway are at the foot of the interview article.

Cheers,
Richard

madmark1974 · Post by **madmark1974** » 19 Jul 2011, 13:41

Thanks for that, Richard, and I hope it's ok for me to share this bit of info from your interview with everybody else here :

"What are your plans for a post-cinema release of SENNA on DVD and Blu Ray?

We’ll be releasing a retail version of the film that is one-hour longer, and it’s largely got up to an hour’s extra interviews, including lots with Alain Prost, Ron Dennis, John Bisignano, Sir Frank Williams, Professor Sid Watkins, Richard Williams and more, you’ll have all this material and opportunity to watch them go off on a tangent and give everything even more context."

Has to be good news for those wanting to get their own copy of the film when available, still no mention of Gerhard Berger though ....

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 19 Jul 2011, 16:43

madmark1974 wrote:still no mention of Gerhard Berger though ....

That was the main problem with the film, surely there should have been a part with him, a significant one.

Benetton · Post by **Benetton** » 19 Jul 2011, 16:46

redbulljack14 wrote:
madmark1974 wrote:still no mention of Gerhard Berger though ....

That was the main problem with the film, surely there should have been a part with him, a significant one.

Yes, it didn't exactly ruin the film but should've definitely been included over some lame Xuxa stuff. Berger was a significant part of Senna.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 19 Jul 2011, 19:30

madmark1974 wrote:Thanks for that, Richard, and I hope it's ok for me to share this bit of info from your interview with everybody else here :

"What are your plans for a post-cinema release of SENNA on DVD and Blu Ray?

We’ll be releasing a retail version of the film that is one-hour longer, and it’s largely got up to an hour’s extra interviews, including lots with Alain Prost, Ron Dennis, John Bisignano, Sir Frank Williams, Professor Sid Watkins, Richard Williams and more, you’ll have all this material and opportunity to watch them go off on a tangent and give everything even more context."

Has to be good news for those wanting to get their own copy of the film when available, still no mention of Gerhard Berger though ....

It has already been released in Italy, because I've got the special edition 2 disc DVD from there. There are a few extras in the 2nd disc as well.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 19 Jul 2011, 19:49

Benetton wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
madmark1974 wrote:still no mention of Gerhard Berger though ....

That was the main problem with the film, surely there should have been a part with him, a significant one.

Yes, it didn't exactly ruin the film but should've definitely been included over some lame Xuxa stuff. Berger was a significant part of Senna.

Exactly the point I was trying to make, definitely didn't ruin the film.

karsten · Post by **karsten** » 19 Jul 2011, 20:12

didn't ruin the film but made it incredibly "flat" and took out a lot of ayrton's character.

Berger was fundamental in senna's life and afterlife. they should have shown berger's win at hockeneim, and they should have mentioned senna having on his body an austrian flag to commemorate ratzenberger.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 20 Jul 2011, 00:34

karsten wrote:didn't ruin the film but made it incredibly "flat" and took out a lot of ayrton's character.

Berger was fundamental in senna's life and afterlife. they should have shown berger's win at hockeneim, and they should have mentioned senna having on his body an austrian flag to commemorate ratzenberger.

I think it would have been more appropiate to show Berger's win in Suzuka 1991. That one was a gift of Senna, already WC since Mansell spun early on, and it would have fitted perfectly with a subplot where Senna's weaknesses as a human being could have been explored. Senna had a hard time relating with other people, because he took everything he did (and particularly racing) so seriously and wasn't interested in anything else; two years of intense rivalry with Prost had only increased that. Berger's role was pretty important in bringing a more relaxed side of Senna. Letting Gerhard through over the line to take a race win had much more meaning to it than just being nice to a teammate and would have worked as a way to express Ayrton's affection for him.