Spa Francorejects

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

There has been a lot of talk lately (with new races getting added to the calendar and others wanting races) about how Spa doesn't make money, is broke, yadda yadda yadda.

What gives? It's the best track with the best racing and it's in the middle of a small continent with a wealthy population. How on earth can they not make money? And if they can't, how can any of the other races be making money?

[Peter]

I don't know about not making money, but the inhabitants of this pace in the middle of nowhere have bee nfighting to get the track closed due to noise and the disturbance of racing. Then it leaves you wondering, who the hell would buy a house near a racetrack, especially in the middle of a forest, if they aren't interested in racing?

[Horns]

Well, I bought tickets. I'm told its one of the best tracks to go on a cheap General Admission tickets, so seemed an ideal opportunity for my first Grand Prix (and first post here too).

Its on the doorstep of a lot of people, so I'm not sure why it would be struggling. Maybe the great racing this season will increase interest?

[Salamander]

Belgium doesn't have any oil tycoons/sheiks/barons/whatever. That's probably your answer.

[GroupLotusRenault]

Belgium doesn't have any oil tycoons/sheiks/barons/whatever. That's probably your answer.

And it isnt a boring Hermann Tilke designed track which has to make you bored and fall asleep (the European GP I fell asleep as it was midnight in New Zealand)

[mario]

I don't know about not making money, but the inhabitants of this pace in the middle of nowhere have bee nfighting to get the track closed due to noise and the disturbance of racing. Then it leaves you wondering, who the hell would buy a house near a racetrack, especially in the middle of a forest, if they aren't interested in racing?

My understanding of the recent battles between the local inhabitants and the circuit owners is that the situation is a little more complicated than just that.

As you may recall, some time ago there were some concerns that the noise emissions from the circuit were exceeding the permissible noise limits, which could have potentially seen events like the F1 race prohibited as a result. Now, the Belgian authorities, concerned about the loss of the Belgian GP, rushed through a piece of legislation that relaxed the restrictions on the circuit temporarily - however, the allegations from the local inhabitants is that, since then, the circuit owners have abused that waiver and are now exceeding even the more generous allowance that was made in that legislation (including running an increasing number of Endurance and 24 Hour races).
As a consequence, they want to have the temporary waiver revoked, so the circuit would no longer be able to run as many events as it does now - not necessarily to close the track down, just getting it to cut back on the number of races it can hold.

Anyway, going back tot he original question. Spa Francorchamps has been loosing money for a long time - for example, back in 2008, they were running at a €3.3 million loss, forcing the regional government to bail them out, whilst those losses increased to €5 million in 2009 and €5.1 million in 2010. It doesn't help either that they've been hit with a few unexpected losses - remember the rebuilding work they had to do after an access tunnel collapsed near Les Combes last year during the winter, probably due to frost heave.

It's a long standing, and deepening problem, and in part it is because, despite the great length of the circuit, the actual crowd capacity of the venue itself is really low, and overall their attendance figures are pretty poor. Back in 2009, for example, they sold around 50,000 tickets (and that was technically over capacity for the circuit - there was one session where the fans had to be moved back from what was a restricted access area for the marshalls only) for race day - which for them was a relative success, although ticket sales have been pretty static in recent years, and have dipped in recent years.
The biggest problem, though, is the fact that the attendance figures for the practise sessions and qualifying are rumoured to be pretty dire - in effect, for those two days, the venue still has very high running costs, but is seeing very little revenue coming in. By comparison, Silverstone - one of the more successful venues - has been rising year on year, and attendance on race day has topped the 100,000 mark some time ago, and some of the more recent attendance figures suggest that over 310,000 people attended over the course of the race weekend (with around 115,000 of those on race day - comfortably more than double what Spa has managed).

Even allowing for the recent deal it struck with Shell to sponsor the event, there are simply not enough people who are willing to travel to Spa (my understanding is that it is a reasonably lengthy trip there from the nearest large city), especially given its reputation for unpredictable downpours. The fans might rave about how good the venue is, but it seems that most of them are content to view the track from the comfort of their own home, not a sodden grass bank as another rain storm sweeps across the track.

[WeirdKerr]

Im gonna come out and say it..... and ive been there back in '95... Spa Francorchamps in its current form is over rated as a circuit.... im sorry but thats my view appart from the section from la source to the Kemmel straight ....

[AdrianSutil]

Surely the main problem is to do with the amount of different races the circuit holds throughout the year. F1, GP2, Sportscars, endurance races etc... All these races cost a lot of money to hold and especially the 12 and 24hr races, there's not going to be a lot of people (revenue) coming in. If they just cut back, surely the costs will fall.

[Captain Hammer]

Belgium doesn't have any oil tycoons/sheiks/barons/whatever. That's probably your answer.

Hungary doesn't either. They seem to do just fine.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Belgium doesn't have any oil tycoons/sheiks/barons/whatever. That's probably your answer.

Hungary doesn't either. They seem to do just fine.

That's because half of Finland live in Budapest

[DanielPT]

Belgium doesn't have any oil tycoons/sheiks/barons/whatever. That's probably your answer.

Hungary doesn't either. They seem to do just fine.

That's because half of Finland live in Budapest

And because HWNSNBM is from Hungary.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

Thanks for the replies. However, I'm still confused a bit. Obviously they're losing money, but is it all down to low attendance? If they just need more proper seating, they should be able to manage that. Unlike all the new tracks, they shouldn't have the enormous construction costs to offset because the track is so old (I know it's been redone and there is a lot of upkeep, but all the tracks have that whether they're new or old).

Secretly I suspect that none of the tracks make money and that the ones that aren't complaining about that fact have other motives. I desperately hope this isn't the case and would love to be told I'm wrong and why.

[Faustus]

Secretly I suspect that none of the tracks make money and that the ones that aren't complaining about that fact have other motives. I desperately hope this isn't the case and would love to be told I'm wrong and why.

Bingo! Very few racing tracks in the world (maybe with the exception of the States, because NASCAR generates serious amounts of money and possibly Japan) actually turn a profit. The only way to recover the costs of hosting a Formula 1 race is to have a title sponsor that is willing to pay enough money.

[Nessafox]

If wallonia is comparable to flanders, then it is because they hate motorsports. I live very close to Zolder and know how people think about these things.
It's all about cycling and football here (but even then people will complain if you build a stadium for more than 1000 attendants) , other sports are a big no. (despite belgians being very good in motocross and not bad in rally either, people are generally against it)

So the government does not support racing, because it will cost them votes. Which makes it financially very hard (zolder is actually pretty much on the verge of bankrupcy since beginning of the eighties)

It must be said that the ban on tobacco sponsorship really hurt belgium very hard, because when motorsport was succesful, we had big belgian companies like bastos and belga bringing in some funding, and we still had petrol company Fina, which has now been bought by Total.

[muttley]

And it isnt a boring Hermann Tilke designed track which has to make you bored and fall asleep (the European GP I fell asleep as it was midnight in New Zealand)

Well, La Source could have been designed by Tilke. And he did a good job with Kurtköy

[The Mountain Man]

Another thing that hurts badly tracks such as Spa is the fact they are heavily underutilized.
Our local track (a smallish affair at 2,5 km) is in use pretty much non-stop from late March to early November. Apart from competitions they have private testing by car and tyre manufacturers, historical rallies and track days. Lots of them. "Hiring the track out" as much as possible helps cover costs, especially given the fact spectator capacity is pretty small.
I understand Spa is used very intermittently outside of competitions and this isn't good. F1 is an extremely expensive affair and without big sponsors willing to shoulder the costs it means they'll always run into losses, losses they cannot make up at least in part with testing and track days.

[Peter]

Maybe track days and testing is Spa's solution. As far as I know, no testing goes on at Spa, and there are few track days. Maybe they just need to up the ante, get F1 to start testing there, and maybe Le Mans too?

[Nessafox]

they can't do that with the sound restrictions they have, which means they will have to drop championships, or try reducing the sound (possible for amateur championships, but at zolder they tried it with wtcc and it didn't work, so it will certainly not work for gt's, proto's or formula cars on the highspeed spa)

[Peter]

Then how about paying the whining citizens out of their homes so they can STFU and GTFO?

[DanielPT]

they can't do that with the sound restrictions they have, which means they will have to drop championships, or try reducing the sound (possible for amateur championships, but at zolder they tried it with wtcc and it didn't work, so it will certainly not work for gt's, proto's or formula cars on the highspeed spa)

Which has appeared first? The track or the citizens were already living there?

[Phoenix]

they can't do that with the sound restrictions they have, which means they will have to drop championships, or try reducing the sound (possible for amateur championships, but at zolder they tried it with wtcc and it didn't work, so it will certainly not work for gt's, proto's or formula cars on the highspeed spa)

Which has appeared first? The track or the citizens were already living there?

The circuit was designed in 1920. Make of that what you will.

[DanielPT]

they can't do that with the sound restrictions they have, which means they will have to drop championships, or try reducing the sound (possible for amateur championships, but at zolder they tried it with wtcc and it didn't work, so it will certainly not work for gt's, proto's or formula cars on the highspeed spa)

Which has appeared first? The track or the citizens were already living there?

The circuit was designed in 1920. Make of that what you will.

Hum... I make that people came after the circuit was built. And in that case those guys knew what was going on there before they moved in... It is not fair for Spa!

[Klon]

Then how about paying the whining citizens out of their homes so they can STFU and GTFO?

Yeah, and if a government chooses to shoot people protesting so we can have a nice and uninterrupted GP, they are evil. F1 fans really don't know what they want

[DanielPT]

Then how about paying the whining citizens out of their homes so they can STFU and GTFO?

Yeah, and if a government chooses to shoot people protesting so we can have a nice and uninterrupted GP, they are evil. F1 fans really don't know what they want

Yes, but according to FIA shooting people should probably guarantee Belgium its GP for years to come .

[mario]

they can't do that with the sound restrictions they have, which means they will have to drop championships, or try reducing the sound (possible for amateur championships, but at zolder they tried it with wtcc and it didn't work, so it will certainly not work for gt's, proto's or formula cars on the highspeed spa)

Which has appeared first? The track or the citizens were already living there?

I would have thought that the villages have been there long before the track came about - after all, the original venue was built around public roads from Malmedy to Spa and Stavelot (those corner names are taken from the villages that the track used to run between), and the old venue would run between the houses (in the 1966 Belgian GP, Jo Bonnier ended up being thrown through the window of one of the houses surrounding the track when he lost control of his car - and to give you an idea how fast he was going, bear in mind that the window was on the first floor).

Then how about paying the whining citizens out of their homes so they can STFU and GTFO?

Though the track no longer runs through those villages, it is still located very close to them, and it's easier said than done to resettle several thousands (probably tens of thousands) of people. Besides, as pointed out before, the main charge against the circuit owners is that they were abusing the terms of their agreements with the local inhabitants as to how many races they'd hold a year, and how late they would run - so it looks like the circuit owners might not be as innocent as they are trying to portray themselves.

As for testing, well, at the moment, I think that is unlikely for a number of reasons - firstly, facilities like Barcelona are generally more convenient for the current F1 teams because of the strong transport links the venue has and the fact that there are few testing restrictions (beyond those imposed by the Resource Restriction Agreement).
Also, the track conditions of venues like Barcelona are much more representative of the rest of the calendar - medium to high downforce conditions (whereas Spa Francorchamps is a low to medium downforce venue), with a broader range of corner types (from high speed sweeping corners to low speed traction - Spa has mostly medium to high speed corners), and, most importantly, the climatic conditions, being dry and relatively mild track temperatures, are closer to the typical track conditions the teams face during the season (whereas Spa would be much colder, and probably wetter, than the season normally is).

And, to be honest, other racing series don't seem that interested in testing there, because there are other venues that are often better suited - Paul Ricard, for example, because the track layout can be customised very easily and it is probably the most advanced track testing ground around the world, although the main test is considered the Sebring 12 Hours (often considered to be one of, if not the toughest, endurance test for a racing car).
Asides from that, Monza was pretty popular as a test venue ahead of the Le Mans 24 Hours - Peugeot, Audi and Aston Martin all tested there as it is the best venue for testing low downforce configurations as required at Le Mans (and there is also the pre-race test session, which in itself is a pretty major event). Besides, Spa is already on the Endurance Racing calendar (both the European Endurance Series and the International Le Mans Series hold events there), so as far as the Endurance Racing series is concerned, they probably spend enough time there as it is.

Secretly I suspect that none of the tracks make money and that the ones that aren't complaining about that fact have other motives. I desperately hope this isn't the case and would love to be told I'm wrong and why.

Bingo! Very few racing tracks in the world (maybe with the exception of the States, because NASCAR generates serious amounts of money and possibly Japan) actually turn a profit. The only way to recover the costs of hosting a Formula 1 race is to have a title sponsor that is willing to pay enough money.

I think that Silverstone just about turns a profit on the British GP, simply because the turnout is so large (over 300,000 people across the race weekend) - although it is a pretty slim profit, it must be said (the last reports suggested that their profits on the British GP were less than £200,000).

As an aside when discussing the profitability of the track, it doesn't help that Spa Francorchamps is some way away from the nearest major city - being so close to the border with Germany, the track is closer to Aachen than Liege.

[Nessafox]

spa is also extremely close to the nürburgring, which makes it less interesting for germans. And as belgians aren't really interested, spa mostly gets some dutch and north-french fans.

Spa is also just weird, when you're walking on the inside of the track, you can hear the birds sing, not the cars race While taking a walk around the track is more of a survival than anything else.

It is however as far as i know the only F1 circuit that you can ski on in the winter (the raidillion obviously)

[tommykl]

Well, it's about as far from Aachen as it is from Liège, and the amount of people that live within serious earshot of the track wouldn't pass 2000 (seriously, almost nothing has changed since 1970).

The problem is, it's still 45 minutes to get to the track, and you can never see much of it. The best you can actually see is the exit of La Source, Eau Rouge, the start of the Kemmel straight and, thanks to the hills, Malmedy and the-corner-which-is-currently-unnamed-but-is-famous-because-that's-where-Petrov-noobed-into-the-barriers-during-qualifying-last-year.

Also, you can't really count Francorchamps as a village that should complain. The circuit is pretty much the only reason that place thrives.

Since the track was built in 1922, you can't say that you were there before, unless more than half the population is over 80 years old, and I seriously doubt that that is the case.

If you don't like the noise, then deal with it or move out

[DanielPT]

Also, you can't really count Francorchamps as a village that should complain. The circuit is pretty much the only reason that place thrives.

Talk about killing the goose that laid the golden eggs...

[mario]

Well, it's about as far from Aachen as it is from Liège, and the amount of people that live within serious earshot of the track wouldn't pass 2000 (seriously, almost nothing has changed since 1970).

The problem is, it's still 45 minutes to get to the track, and you can never see much of it. The best you can actually see is the exit of La Source, Eau Rouge, the start of the Kemmel straight and, thanks to the hills, Malmedy and the-corner-which-is-currently-unnamed-but-is-famous-because-that's-where-Petrov-noobed-into-the-barriers-during-qualifying-last-year.

Also, you can't really count Francorchamps as a village that should complain. The circuit is pretty much the only reason that place thrives.

Since the track was built in 1922, you can't say that you were there before, unless more than half the population is over 80 years old, and I seriously doubt that that is the case.

If you don't like the noise, then deal with it or move out

I suppose that, if you were a pedant, it's worth pointing out that the original venue, by its nature as a temporary venue, was only infrequently used - by the late 1970's, due to several drivers and a marshall being killed in Endurance races in the preceding years, the temporary circuit was only used for the Spa 24 Hours race and a MotoGP race before being dropped. So, in effect, the old circuit had almost fallen out of use due to its poor safety record, with the construction of the modern venue being comparatively recent (anybody over the age of about 40 would have been born before the modern venue was built).

As you say, though, with a 45m trip to get to the track, if anything is going to kill off the Belgian GP, it is more likely to be the fact that the long journey puts most people off, combined with the fact that other venues have already locked out the testing market (because, ironically, Spa is so unique, it would probably be a flawed testing ground).

[EDIT] Two slight corrections - firstly, the new venue was actually finished in 1979, it seems (at least according to the official website for Spa-Francorchamps), and secondly, although Turn 9, where Petrov came to grief last year, has become famous for being a corner without a name, in fact it does have a name (Davidson let it slip during the practise sessions ahead of the race last year). For those who are curious, Davidson said that the corner is actually called Liege, as that corner is built upon the public road that used to lead to Liege before the circuit was redesigned.

[AndreaModa]

So what's stopping them doing what Silverstone did and whacking in a lovely dual-carriageway to whisk people in and out of the circuit? Or does it already exist? I'm not familiar with the area so I don't know I'm afraid.

[Nessafox]

So what's stopping them doing what Silverstone did and whacking in a lovely dual-carriageway to whisk people in and out of the circuit? Or does it already exist? I'm not familiar with the area so I don't know I'm afraid.

it does exist and is pretty close, but it still lots of traffic jams between the highway (which goes from verviers to north-luxemburg and thus not an important one) and the track
the thing is that the many hills make it difficult to make a big road between the malmedy exit and the track, and to the north they have to cross the francorchamps village. There is an alternative from the malmedy road then heading south towards masta,stavelot etc, but that would on the other hand make things extremely complicated, plus that inhabitants of the villages of masta, rivage and burnenville wouldn't be happy with it, even though there don't live many people, it's enough to block things.

The other thing is that apart from the circuit ,there is no need for any big roads, as even the city of Spa is quite far, and Verviers is underrated, but nobody cares about that city. Thus my suggestion is to build there a stadium for standard de liege, who need a bigger place than 30000 with practically no parking space anyway, it could be a win-win. At least when there are decent train connections, which aren't there either.


well mario, you're talking about 'the modern venue' but large part of the current track was in the original from the 20's too, so i don't really know what you want to say (and that's a rare thing happening)

[tommykl]

Yes, the only realtively close highway has two exits that lead to the track. One leads you through Francorchamps to Eau Rouge, with an option to take another road down to Les Combes. The other gets you on the old circuit, between Malmedy and Masta, with option to go all the way to Les Combes, or all the way to Stavelot, where there aren't really any grandstands, but paths that lead to the pitlane with a wonderful view of Blanchimont, or to the grass mounds at Pouhon.

[Peter]

Perhaps Spa could strike a deal to pay compensation to civilians for the track noise. $100 a month? Is that enough to get them to STFU and let Spa have as many races as they wish?

[coloni_subaru]

If Spa really does have financial worries and/or needs upgrades, how about asking all real all F1 fans for a 1 pound donation? I'm pretty sure that would do the trick, and probably turn a large profit as well...

especially if it comes to saving either Booorcelona or Spa