2011 Belgian Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 27 Aug 2011, 13:32

kostas22 wrote:OK, my two cents on Hamilton v Maldonado.

At the bus stop Hamilton had every right to do that. He was on a crucial qualifying lap. Pastor left the door wide open. They touched because Maldonado turned in sharply in the second phase of the corner, Hamilton entered at a shallower angle so by the laws of physics couldn't turn left for the correct racing line as quickly as Maldonado could. Hamilton was in the right there.

And then the follow-up incident...absolutely shameful. He should be banned for several raaces for something like that. What if Lewis was going a bit quicker and Maldonado only caught up at Eau Rouge and pulled that? The result could have been much much worse.

The Finns might be happy about that, Valtteri Bottas would get his F1 debut as a result

I do believe Pastor was on a flying lap at the time, Lewis should have slowed down, and got out of the way altogether. What it looks like happened was that Lewis swerved into the way, I think Pastor was lining up for Eau Rouge early, but because Lewis didn't slow down, they collided. It's unlike F1 anymore for intentional ramming, that stuff happened in the 90's when stewards weren't idiotic, inconsistent dictators.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 27 Aug 2011, 13:33

Ferrim wrote:Looking again at the replay, I would say Hamilton wasn't completely innocent in the second incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzixd6oewTw

Notice how they start to accelerate in parallel. Then they turn into each other, trying to occupy the same part of the track, acting like if they didn't know the other was there. The first time I only caught Maldonado's move; but now it's plain to see that Hamilton is moving towards Maldonado as well.

That camera angle is deceptive, because Hamilton is following the curve of the track, which makes it seem like Hamilton is deliberately moving right while Maldonado is simply holding course. If you look from the more straight-on angle, it Hamilton who is following the racing line and Maldonado who moves left.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 27 Aug 2011, 13:34

Peter wrote:I do believe Pastor was on a flying lap at the time, Lewis should have slowed down, and got out of the way altogether.

I don't think so. When Hamilton had crossed the line the chequered flag had already dropped - as Hamilton was ahead of Maldonado, he can't have been on a flying lap.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 27 Aug 2011, 13:35

The session was over, they had crossed the line at 0:00 a few seconds earlier. So no flying lap for Maldonado.

EDIT: Paul Hayes and I have just done a Maldonado vs. Hamilton: both trying to do something at the same time :lol:

at least we didn't know what the other was doing, which can't be said of these two.

Post by **mario** » 27 Aug 2011, 13:43

Peter wrote:Not accusing anyone of anything here, but pretty often, when a mainstream driver like Hamilton in involved in a race incident, the fanboyism lurks and the other driver involved is blamed.

Well, we'll see if there is any on board footage from Maldonado's car showing his steering wheel movement, which should go some way towards settling the argument. If Maldonado was indeed turning left into Hamilton's path as they exited La Source, than it would indicate that Maldonado's action was probably intentional; if he was continuing directly ahead, or not trying to cut across Hamilton's path, then the evidence should be there for the stewards.
Whatever happens, though, it's somewhat ironic that the incident was partially caused by Hamilton's old team mate Kovalainen (after all, it was because he was backing Rubens back into Maldonado, which in turn backed Maldonado into Hamilton, that the two were in such close proximity).

solarcold wrote:Have I been the only one who beleived in Bruno all way through? Let him make the marvellous race tomorrow.

Easy now - we are talking about unusual circumstances here that have in effect skewed the grid at what is an atypical venue. After all, only a few minutes earlier in Q3 we saw how Perez, by virtue of switching to the slick tyres first, was on pole, though he finally wound up in 9th place.
Also, Bruno Senna did have the advantage of an extra lap thanks to when he switched to slicks, which also helped him gain time compared to those around him (after all, most of those drivers were finding several tenths of a second a lap, if not more, every lap they went round).

So, for now it'll pay to be cautious since the race is likely to be very different to qualifying - Maldonado qualified in 7th place in Silverstone in similarly mixed weather conditions, and ahead of his team mate, and for which he gained some praise here, but come the race he finished in 14th and behind his team mate. Bruno might have qualified well but Button and Alonso, who are both out of position, are realistically in faster cars and it'll be hard for Bruno to maintain his position, let alone improve on it.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 27 Aug 2011, 13:47

Speaking of Maldonado

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt5nt7IdyPs

He got the 7-10 split!! :lol:

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 27 Aug 2011, 13:51

Peter wrote:Speaking of Maldonado

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt5nt7IdyPs

He got the 7-10 split!!

Wowser! Doing an Alonso in Brazil 2003.

Priceless · Post by **Priceless** » 27 Aug 2011, 13:58

Just came back from watching qualifying.

Great performance by Bruno Senna, in his first race weekend on a proper F1 car (let's remember Bruno himself used the GP2 cars as a comparison parameter for the speed of HRT at some point of last year) - outgunned Petrov and even ended up ahead of Alonso!

Of course, on normal conditions Alonso and other guys, like Button and Schumacher, would have been faster... but anyway, nice job for him.

On the Hamilton vs Maldonado incident... to me it looked like there was over-reaction by both parties, with Maldonado taking the larger share of the blame in the end. It all started with Kovalainen (unintentionally, of course) slowing down Barrichello, who in turn slowed down Maldonado, who slowed down Hamilton, who never took too nicely to being slowed down. Hamilton then did that very aggressive passing move on Maldonado. Alright, Hamilton was on a fast lap and fighting for the top places, so he had every reason to force his way through as he did. It went sour by the slowdown lap, when the two met side by side - something must have been going on there. Hamilton first steered the car towards Maldonado, which looked offensive to me... and when Hamilton was about to go away Maldonado responded by (deliberately? Looked like it to me at least) causing contact.

On the back end of the field (one of the reasons why I like it here :mrgreen:

), nice performance by Kovalainen dragging the Lotus into Q2, and... d'Ambrosio and both HRT men failed to meet 107%, but, as stated in the F1 official site, "are expected to be allowed to start". Why have the 107% then? Schumacher should be allowed to start, the Mercedes is obviously fast enough and he went out by no fault of his own, but d'Ambrosio and the HRT guys were just slow - shown by the fact that Glock cleared the 107%.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 27 Aug 2011, 14:04

Priceless wrote: Hamilton first steered the car towards Maldonado, which looked offensive to me...

I don't think so... if you look at the clip, Hamilton starts moving right before Maldonado starts to pass him, then jinks left out of the way when he realises Maldonado is coming round the outside. But the move starts while Pastor is still behind him.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 27 Aug 2011, 14:05

I must say though, Vettel isn't going to win tomorrow. Lewis just has better race pace than him, whether it be dry or wet. I don't see him winning tomorrow unless Lewis gets into trouble, either at the start, or with the stewards, or both.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 27 Aug 2011, 14:06

In regards to this clip posted above:
[url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzixd6oewTw[/url]

as someone in the comments says, if you look at the grid markings, rather than the two cars' apparent position in relation to the camera, Maldonado clearly makes a left move.

EDIT: It's actually a little like an optical illusion. If you look at the cars, Hamilton moves; if you look at the road markings, Maldonado moves. It's like two different incidents.

Post by **mario** » 27 Aug 2011, 14:16

Priceless wrote:[...]On the back end of the field (one of the reasons why I like it here ), nice performance by Kovalainen dragging the Lotus into Q2, and... d'Ambrosio and both HRT men failed to meet 107%, but, as stated in the F1 official site, "are expected to be allowed to start". Why have the 107% then? Schumacher should be allowed to start, the Mercedes is obviously fast enough and he went out by no fault of his own, but d'Ambrosio and the HRT guys were just slow - shown by the fact that Glock cleared the 107%.

But, the 107% rule does contain the reasonable proviso that the car should only be barred from starting if at no point during the race weekend has that driver and car combination looked like it could have qualified within 107% of the leader in normal racing conditions. If the weather conditions are varying throughout the session, then in effect the 107% rule does not apply - how can you judge the relative performance of two cars when one set his times in damp conditions, whereas the other set a time in much driver condition?
After all, Glock's time came simply because he bolted on a new set of tyres and set a last minute time, whereas the other drivers set their times much earlier in the session when the track was much wetter - had they been on track at the time, then it's not unreasonable to expect that they could have improved their times.

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 27 Aug 2011, 14:17

I do think Maldonado is at fault for the incident. It was no way Hamilton's fault for pushing past his at the chicane, mirrors are there for a reason, but it's clear that Maldonado turned in on Hamilton.

Anyway, good performance by Kovalainen again, almost forgetting how average he was at McLaren.
Di Resta and Sutil should have fun moving through the field tomorrow, I do think their cars are good enough for top 7 or 8. Senna too, looked very composed. You can go on about the weather helped him get 7th, and he was lucky to do so, but bigger names failed to do what he did, so kudos to him.

Priceless · Post by **Priceless** » 27 Aug 2011, 14:29

fjackdaw wrote:
Priceless wrote: Hamilton first steered the car towards Maldonado, which looked offensive to me...

I don't think so... if you look at the clip, Hamilton starts moving right before Maldonado starts to pass him, then jinks left out of the way when he realises Maldonado is coming round the outside. But the move starts while Pastor is still behind him.

Yes... taking a closer look now, looks like you're right... but even so, I wouldn't totally exempt Hamilton even though I think Maldonado is more to blame for the incident. That camera angle shows Maldonado clearly clipping Hamilton's path.

mario wrote:the 107% rule does contain the reasonable proviso that the car should only be barred from starting if at no point during the race weekend has that driver and car combination looked like it could have qualified within 107% of the leader in normal racing conditions. If the weather conditions are varying throughout the session, then in effect the 107% rule does not apply

Yes, I really didn't take that into account... maybe I didn't pay enough attention, I really did think the other three guys were on track at that last minute... since the lap is very long maybe they were already on the slowdown and going back to the pits when Glock set his time.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 27 Aug 2011, 14:43

OK, having now watched a replay of this, I guess at the bus stop, Hamilton squeezed through and he and the Reveren McDonald touched in the process. It's a tight place to go through 2-wide so no offense there, it was just racing.
Then the chequered flag came out.

Exiting La Source, the Reverend overtook Hamilton and clipped him when moving over. It looked rather amateurish.

It's strange that Williams' most recent pole sitter Nico Hülkenberg had to give up his seat for this driver and does not have a ride at this point. So I say bring back the Hülk!

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 27 Aug 2011, 14:50

Well Maldonado would already have been angry at being blocked by Barrichello coming into the Bus Stop, so no wonder be lost it when Hamilton came through.

Hopefully the onboards of this incident are revealed and not saved for the end of year DVD or something.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 27 Aug 2011, 14:53

Ed24 wrote:Well Maldonado would already have been angry at being blocked by Barrichello coming into the Bus Stop, so no wonder be lost it when Hamilton came through.

Who in turn was blocked by Kovalainen. So Kovalainen is at fault for the entire incident. To the back of the grid with him.

Priceless · Post by **Priceless** » 27 Aug 2011, 15:13

Klon wrote:
Ed24 wrote:Well Maldonado would already have been angry at being blocked by Barrichello coming into the Bus Stop, so no wonder be lost it when Hamilton came through.

Who in turn was blocked by Kovalainen. So Kovalainen is at fault for the entire incident. To the back of the grid with him.

Barrichello himself cleared Kovalainen... he said to Brazilian TV "it's not his fault, he's just on a slower car". And I think so too, I think it was just unfortunate that those three caught up to Kovalainen in the middle of a fast lap... I know, the Lotus is still somewhat off the pace in terms of competitiveness with the midfield, and quite likely Kovalainen would not improve on his 17th place anyway, but I wouldn't blame him for trying.

stupot94 · Post by **stupot94** » 27 Aug 2011, 15:22

I just have to say. Well done to Bruno! And It is a cliche and I hoped I hadnt have to do this, but Senna name is back in the Black Gold Lotus!!!

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 27 Aug 2011, 15:31

Priceless wrote:
Klon wrote:
Ed24 wrote:Well Maldonado would already have been angry at being blocked by Barrichello coming into the Bus Stop, so no wonder be lost it when Hamilton came through.

Who in turn was blocked by Kovalainen. So Kovalainen is at fault for the entire incident. To the back of the grid with him.

Barrichello himself cleared Kovalainen... he said to Brazilian TV "it's not his fault, he's just on a slower car". And I think so too, I think it was just unfortunate that those three caught up to Kovalainen in the middle of a fast lap... I know, the Lotus is still somewhat off the pace in terms of competitiveness with the midfield, and quite likely Kovalainen would not improve on his 17th place anyway, but I wouldn't blame him for trying.

He's gotta try hasn't he. No point settling for 17th in mixed conditions like these.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 27 Aug 2011, 16:00

Klon wrote:
Ed24 wrote:Well Maldonado would already have been angry at being blocked by Barrichello coming into the Bus Stop, so no wonder be lost it when Hamilton came through.

Who in turn was blocked by Kovalainen. So Kovalainen is at fault for the entire incident. To the back of the grid with him.

It's not blocking if he's on a flying lap!

Therefore, send the Lotus design team to the back of the grid for making a car that's too slow to set a decent pace.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 27 Aug 2011, 16:00

Lewis reprimanded. 5 place grid drop for Maldonado. (Ian Parkes F1...unconfirmed)

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 27 Aug 2011, 16:01

Five-place penalty for Maldonado and a reprimand for Hamilton, apparently:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/08/27/m ... reprimand/

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 27 Aug 2011, 16:05

Paul Hayes wrote:Five-place penalty for Maldonado and a reprimand for Hamilton, apparently:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/08/27/m ... reprimand/

He's a lucky boy he didn't get chucked out of the race, if that's true. I can only assume the stewards didn't find enough evidence to suggest it was deliberate.

Priceless · Post by **Priceless** » 27 Aug 2011, 16:08

Paul Hayes wrote:Five-place penalty for Maldonado and a reprimand for Hamilton, apparently:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/08/27/m ... reprimand/

That's reasonable. I think I'd do the same.

DOSBoot · Post by **DOSBoot** » 27 Aug 2011, 16:16

stupot94 wrote:I just have to say. Well done to Bruno! And It is a cliche and I hoped I hadnt have to do this, but Senna name is back in the Black Gold Lotus!!!

I'll see how he does in the race before I would say that. I still think Alguersuari's time was more impressive.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 27 Aug 2011, 16:18

Paul Hayes wrote:Five-place penalty for Maldonado and a reprimand for Hamilton, apparently:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/08/27/m ... reprimand/

Yet another erroneous decision from the stewards. I think it was just a mistake or perhaps a misunderstanding between both. However, if the former, then Williams should begin to worry about the form of Maldonado.

As for the rest of the events, well done for Senna and Alguersuari. Now here's one hoping they can hold their own tomorrow.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 27 Aug 2011, 16:37

Peter wrote:Speaking of Maldonado

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt5nt7IdyPs

He got the 7-10 split!!

How did he get the Williams seat again? Just clumsy

And Alonso? Where is he? He must have been replaced by a Heidfeld clone

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 27 Aug 2011, 16:46

Paul Hayes wrote:Five-place penalty for Maldonado and a reprimand for Hamilton, apparently.

Just how many reprimands can one get before actually serving any kind of sentence? Not saying he should have got one, but seriously. :lol:

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 27 Aug 2011, 17:09

I come back from work to see the times and its yet another 1/2 second job. That and somebodys head at Mercedes is going to roll...

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 27 Aug 2011, 17:28

Priceless wrote:
Paul Hayes wrote:Five-place penalty for Maldonado and a reprimand for Hamilton, apparently:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/08/27/m ... reprimand/

That's reasonable. I think I'd do the same.

Why did Hamilton get a reprimand? For riling the idiot in the first place?

Did it not look like Maldonado was going into the pitlane at that point? Hamilton, indeed ANYONE would have stuck to the racing line in that instance...

5-places.... NASCAR gets away with this sort of bollocks.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 27 Aug 2011, 17:40

Well, a months break is behind and let me say that it was a great way to kickstart the season once again. Which further proves my point that rain = entertainment.

Can't wait for the race.

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 27 Aug 2011, 18:04

Klon wrote:Just how many reprimands can one get before actually serving any kind of sentence? Not saying he should have got one, but seriously.

Well they actually brought in a rule at Silverstone, probably largely due to Hamilton, that from now on, three reprimands equal a 10 place grid penalty.

Everyone started with a clean slate of course, but based on Hamilton's record, you wouldn't rule him out being the first to experience that rule before the end of the year. :lol:

EDIT: Here's Hamilton's onboard video of the incident. Pretty damning for Maldonado! I still want to see longer videos of both drivers, because it started further up the hill with Hamilton seemingly moving towards Maldonado.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hHG3rPl5UM

Post by **mario** » 27 Aug 2011, 18:17

ADx_Wales wrote:
Priceless wrote:
Paul Hayes wrote:Five-place penalty for Maldonado and a reprimand for Hamilton, apparently:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/08/27/m ... reprimand/

That's reasonable. I think I'd do the same.

Why did Hamilton get a reprimand? For riling the idiot in the first place?

Did it not look like Maldonado was going into the pitlane at that point? Hamilton, indeed ANYONE would have stuck to the racing line in that instance...

5-places.... NASCAR gets away with this sort of bollocks.

That is certainly the line that Hamilton is taking, and disputing the comments from Maldonado that their clash on track was just a racing accident - he, at least, is fairly adamant that Maldonado's actions were not accidental, which is what Maldonado seems to be trying to suggest. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94043

I have to say, though, that this is not going to do Maldonado's career any favours - the general opinion from the press and public at large suggests that quite a few people believe that Maldonado's not been treated harshly enough for his move (and, having viewed the footage from Hamilton's car, as provided by Ed24, it looks hard to argue that Maldonado didn't intend to hit Hamilton given how quickly Maldonado was going and the line that he took).
To be honest, on viewing the footage again I'd have to say that Maldonado was probably lucky to get away with just that - given the nature of the collision, I think that Maldonado could well judge himself lucky not to have his times for the session deleted altogether, or even a temporary ban (we've seen others hit with temporary bans in the past for accidental collisions).

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 27 Aug 2011, 18:32

It's one of those incidents that's hard to forget. I still can't really abide Hamilton after the liegate farrago, but at least he's fast, so still employable... if you're slow and do dumb things, mud sticks more.

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 27 Aug 2011, 18:36

Best qualify of year so far and I expect more fights in the race.

Also, according to the Brazilian transmission, Rubens still has no contract for next year.

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 27 Aug 2011, 20:12

Dangerous though it was, I laughed my head off at Maldonado trying to push Lewis off, if only because it gives him a taste of what he's done to many people over the last few years (including Pastor at Monaco this year of course) while acting like a spoilt brat. And whatever DC and Brundle said, I don't agree that him trying to shove Maldonado off at the chicane is 'fair enough' actually.
Pretty poor showing all round from the Beeb today anyway I thought, with Eddie Jordan's partly nonsensical marks for the season so far where he claimed Di Resta was the best rookie when really you'd have to say it was Perez, and then Jake completely ignoring Alguersuari's excellent performance in quali when he did the grid rundown at the end, primarily I expect because he was rushing everything so they could get the oh so exciting rugby on. Given up already have we?

Oh, and I was impressed with Bruno Senna, much as I didn't want Renault to get rid of Nick.

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 27 Aug 2011, 20:18

I also forgot Brundle's spectacular inability to spot that Vettel had got pole - has he got Legarditis?

jpm · Post by **jpm** » 27 Aug 2011, 22:45

Barbazza wrote:I also forgot Brundle's spectacular inability to spot that Vettel had got pole - has he got Legarditis?

I brought this up in the unpopular opinions forum, in which I excersised my dislike for Brundle as a commentator; he misses several key pieces of data, and only announces to them to the audience when they are no longer relevant. As Eddie Jordan said today to descrobe Mercedes, he is an "epic fail."

With regards to Maldonado, I can't believe nobody has brought up the case of Stefan Mucke, who earlier did a similar thing at Silverstone in the World GT1 championship. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zv_j84t0Bw

The stewards at the meeting reccomended that his racing licence be removed, but the German FIA branch decreed otherwise. Whatever happens, this won;t be the end of it for Pastor. What he should have done was pretent that he was Senna, wait till later and pretend that Hamilton was Eddie Irvine, Suzuka 93' style :lol:

QuickYoda41 · Post by **QuickYoda41** » 27 Aug 2011, 22:59

fjackdaw wrote:
Peter wrote:Speaking of Maldonado

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt5nt7IdyPs

He got the 7-10 split!!

Wowser! Doing an Alonso in Brazil 2003.

Today's action was again Alonso-like (vs. Doornbos) - se we can see now, who is Pastor's idol :lol:

Anyway, I think I should watch qualifying at my dad's place more often - last time I did before today was Brazil '10. :lol:

This grid now can mean a good race both in the dry or the wet - only reason I'd still vote for the latter because I can sse a slight chance of a Lotus-point then :shock:

Also, Alguersuari was awesome - and also Bruno, as much as I hate to admit this. Can't wait to see what they'll manage to convert their grid positions into.