2011 Japanese Grand Prix Discussion Thread

QuickYoda41 · Post by **QuickYoda41** » 08 Oct 2011, 07:13

What's the point in going two laps with a set of tyres, and thus not setting any time?

kobayashiftw · Post by **kobayashiftw** » 08 Oct 2011, 08:40

(insert random kamui fanboyism here)

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 08 Oct 2011, 09:49

Just seen the qualifying session. It's already masochistic enough that I'm going to get up early tomorrow only for Vettel to stick his finger in my... eeeer... family forum.

I know I'm repeating myself, but please, NO penalties for those who don't go out in Q3. It's a strategy that they think it's worth it (I don't completely agree; why the hell Kobayashi pulled in instead of completing that slow lap on the harder compound? He would have either qualified 7th instead of 10th, or forced Schumacher and the Renaults to go out). Therefore we need changes that make not worth to stay in the pits. The first that comes to my mind is giving them an extra set of soft tyres for Q3. An easier and cheaper one would be to remove one set of soft tyres (the one that has done the least number of laps) to anyone who doesn't set a time in Q3. A variant of the first solution: give an extra set of soft tyres for the race to anyone who has set a time on soft tyres during Q3 (this has the advantage of being easier to handle; Pirelli wouldn't need to hurry up after Q2).

The Spanish commentators didn't found out until after Q3 was over, but I immediately guessed that Hamilton had run out of time. When Alonso went out for his final attempt there were just two minutes to go. They showed the exit of the pitlane and you could only see Vettel and Massa leaving. Then they changed to a shot of Alonso but it was clear that it would be very close. Vettel started his final lap with 18 seconds to go, then came Massa, then you could see no one, but Webber, Button and Hamilton were still to come. There simply wasn't enough time for all of them to fit safely.

I'm optimistic for tomorrow. For whatever reason, Red Bull aren't so competitive, McLaren will race for the win, Ferrari are nearly there and there will be a nice scrap for the final points with Kobayashi-san involved. It will be interesting to see Rosberg coming through the field as well.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 08 Oct 2011, 10:24

Drivers who know they are not gonna be able to get pole not going out to set a time in Q3 is a joke... something NEEDS to be done im gonna suggest some thing.... if no time is set in is set by a driver in Q3 unless its for a mechanical reason, then just make the driver fofeit 1 set of tyres....

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 08 Oct 2011, 10:38

Ferrim wrote: Vettel started his final lap with 18 seconds to go, then came Massa, then you could see no one, but Webber, Button and Hamilton were still to come. There simply wasn't enough time for all of them to fit safely.

And it was Hamilton who caused himself and Schumacher to miss out on setting a time as on his outlap he was ahead of Webber on the road. (Although I for one am not sure if Schumacher could have made it regardless)

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 08 Oct 2011, 11:14

Kobayashi to start 7th

Is the dream on tomorrow afternoon?

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 08 Oct 2011, 11:22

Ferrim wrote:why the hell Kobayashi pulled in instead of completing that slow lap on the harder compound? He would have either qualified 7th instead of 10th, or forced Schumacher and the Renaults to go out

I correct myself, as it seems that going out and starting a flyer was enough to effectively force these people to go out if they wanted to outqualify him, and not setting a time allows him to start on whatever tyres he wants for tomorrow. So good thinking from Sauber, but you shouldn't be allowed to outqualify someone without setting a time, and still be allowed to start on the tyres you want!

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 08 Oct 2011, 11:34

Personally, I think it all just adds to the strategy and cunning. Tomorrow is the fun bit.

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 08 Oct 2011, 12:27

Wizzie wrote:Kobayashi to start 7th

Is the dream on tomorrow afternoon?

I'm glad the grids been sorted out. I worked it out pretty quickly that Kobayashi should be 7th, yet the BBC listed him as 10th, behind the Renault's who didn't even go out. As long as he doesn't see the red mist in front of all his fans tomorrow, we could have a solid race from him.

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 08 Oct 2011, 12:32

At least he didn't steal Webber's this time...

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 08 Oct 2011, 13:30

Frankly, I don't care that drivers aren't going out in Q3 - I'd much rather have a boring qualifying session than a boring race. The frontrunners are still fighting for pole, so you still had excitement on the track. So what if Kobayashi, Schumacher, Senna and Petrov weren't setting times?

Post by **mario** » 08 Oct 2011, 13:35

Ferrim wrote:Just seen the qualifying session. It's already masochistic enough that I'm going to get up early tomorrow only for Vettel to stick his finger in my... eeeer... family forum.

I know I'm repeating myself, but please, NO penalties for those who don't go out in Q3. It's a strategy that they think it's worth it (I don't completely agree; why the hell Kobayashi pulled in instead of completing that slow lap on the harder compound? He would have either qualified 7th instead of 10th, or forced Schumacher and the Renaults to go out). Therefore we need changes that make not worth to stay in the pits. The first that comes to my mind is giving them an extra set of soft tyres for Q3. An easier and cheaper one would be to remove one set of soft tyres (the one that has done the least number of laps) to anyone who doesn't set a time in Q3. A variant of the first solution: give an extra set of soft tyres for the race to anyone who has set a time on soft tyres during Q3 (this has the advantage of being easier to handle; Pirelli wouldn't need to hurry up after Q2).

It is the inevitable flip side of cutting the tyre durability further and further, coupled to Pirelli going for ever more aggressive tyre combinations for the rest of the season to maintain some interest in the remaining races. OK, Pirelli themselves are unhappy about the situation and are talking with the teams about alternative options, but at the same time they acknowledge that the current regulations give the lower half of the top 10 an increasing incentive to preserve their tyres to try to maximise their performance in the race, even if it means sacrificing qualifying. It's especially difficult this weekend given that the tyres are burning out very quickly - some teams are talking of three to five stops, even allowing for the greater durability of the medium tyre - so tyre management is becoming increasingly critical.

After all, you can see why Renault are deliberately not running - given that Force India is now threatening what had looked like a reasonably secure 5th place in the WCC, Force India might have had an advantage in the race through not using as many sets of tyres as Renault had, and potentially passed them in the race. As far as they are concerned, what might be good for the overall show is not good for them, and they'd rather save the tyres and maximise their chances of points. You really do need to create an incentive for teams to try to improve in qualifying, and not just penalise, because I half wonder whether some teams could be unscrupulous and "manufacture" a problem that conveniently means that they cannot set a time.

AdrianSutil wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Kobayashi to start 7th

Is the dream on tomorrow afternoon?

I'm glad the grids been sorted out. I worked it out pretty quickly that Kobayashi should be 7th, yet the BBC listed him as 10th, behind the Renault's who didn't even go out. As long as he doesn't see the red mist in front of all his fans tomorrow, we could have a solid race from him.

The irony is that had Schumacher, Webber and Hamilton not been squabbling at the end of their out laps, Schumacher probably would have set a time - Mercedes intended to - yet still ends up behind Kobayashi, who never intended to complete his lap.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 08 Oct 2011, 14:13

mario wrote:You really do need to create an incentive for teams to try to improve in qualifying, and not just penalise, because I half wonder whether some teams could be unscrupulous and "manufacture" a problem that conveniently means that they cannot set a time.

I took that into account when thinking about my proposal. Consider what would happen if you introduced this rule: "Any driver who sets a lap time in Q3 will receive an extra set of tyres for the race, of the same compound he used for that lap". People who set a time would have a new set of tyres for the race, plus whatever tyres they had left. If you stay in the pits you wouldn't have new tyres, so why wouldn't you want to go out? It could be perceived as unfair for the people qualifying 11th and further behind, but those people are already allowed to start on whatever tyres they want. If you reached Q3 you would have the chance to use a set of very worn tyres and receive new ones, but that's actually an incentive for people to go out and try to reach Q3. And, as long as the "start the race on the tyre you qualified on" rule is kept, it wouldn't make much sense.

You could have a situation where someone goes on a very slow lap to "use" a set of tyres and receive an extra one for the race. To avoid that, you could rule that people running slower than, let's say, 110% of pole time are not entitled to a new set of tyres.

I guess that scrapping the rule about starting the race with the tyres you used in qualifying may sound good, but if they did there would be people qualifying on softs and others on hards. And we would complain that some teams are thinking about the race instead of doing their best in qualifying...

Mister Fungus · Post by **Mister Fungus** » 08 Oct 2011, 14:29

So it was a smart move by sauber, they got the 7th place and can still choose with which tires to start the race.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 08 Oct 2011, 14:40

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Frankly, I don't care that drivers aren't going out in Q3 - I'd much rather have a boring qualifying session than a boring race. The frontrunners are still fighting for pole, so you still had excitement on the track. So what if Kobayashi, Schumacher, Senna and Petrov weren't setting times?

I agree - the back half having that extra set of tyres could potentially mix things up a bit. It also takes away the bonus of qualifying in 11th, which has to be an even sillier glitch.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 08 Oct 2011, 16:13

7. Kamui Kobayashi, Sauber-Ferrari, No Time
8. Michael Schumacher, Mercedes, No Time
9. Bruno Senna, Renault, No Time
10. Vitaly Petrov, Renault, No Time

Time to remove the "start on Q3 tyres" rule...

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 08 Oct 2011, 16:17

I believe one one of the "Big Three" starts doing the same thing THEN they'll remove the start on Q3 Tyres rule...

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 08 Oct 2011, 16:57

How about giving all the teams one extra set of softs that are designated as qualifying only? Teams can choose to run their entire qualifying on that set of tires, or they can use their race allocation if they wish.

IdeFan · Post by **IdeFan** » 08 Oct 2011, 18:33

LionZoo wrote:How about giving all the teams one extra set of softs that are designated as qualifying only? Teams can choose to run their entire qualifying on that set of tires, or they can use their race allocation if they wish.

Qualifying tires! Super super soft set for Q3 only!

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 08 Oct 2011, 21:29

you know what? i just remembered something. 1990's title decider should happen again. Did you hear that, Button?

tkcom · Post by **tkcom** » 08 Oct 2011, 21:59

nome66 wrote:you know what? i just remembered something. 1990's title decider should happen again. Did you hear that, Button?

With a Japanese driver on podium... How hard can it be?

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 08 Oct 2011, 22:26

this hard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bateVoomrTY
hire Taku for one race and we'll see.

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 09 Oct 2011, 05:59

So glad Kobayashi has been moved to 7th, he'll get swamped on the line, but glad he is moving forward :lol:

Vettel's start was very dangerous, that could have been a serious accident

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:18

No action on start
Hamillton rear puncture

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:21

Hamilton has lost out here big style

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:25

Buemi retires with... what a surprise, a wheel failure!

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:29

Be interesting to see if there is some fine for Toro Rosso over the wheel

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:31

And Kobayashi passed Alguersuari - without getting hit this time!

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:35

haha yeah! Menwhile I think Button is gonna take this in the later stages of the race when they can't pit all the time for tyres, his style is working really well now

Button through! This changes everythiong

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:38

[cynic]can vettel win the title if he takes button out of the race?[/cynic]

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:40

Ok , you all hate hamilton, now's your chance

READYAIMFIRE!!!!

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:41

And another contact between Massa and Hamilton...

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:44

Safety car deployed!

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:46

"You are allowed to race down the pitlane"

SINCE WHEN MARTIN!"?!?!?!?!!?

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:46

Yeah this drag racing in the pits should be banned, really dangerous

Stewards investigating Massa and hamilton collision

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:47

Nice to See Gryffindor House being Marshalls at the Japanese GP.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:47

Massa-Hamilton incident investigated...

dejavu :roll:

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:48

Ok if hamilton gets a penalty, why didnt Justin Bieber get one?

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:50

Anthony Davidson thinks just a racing incident like hamilton/kobayashi at Spa

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:51

Webber's front wing at Turn 7...