2011 Japanese Grand Prix Discussion Thread

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:51

Well they all have been ...

...and you cant penalise all racing incidents...thats just idiocy.

NFA , Nice one Jonesey.

GwilymJJames · Post by **GwilymJJames** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:52

We get told there's debris at Turn 7.

We don't see why.

We see two cars hitting, with one releasing debris.

Martin: "What was that about????"

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:54

GwilymJJames wrote:We get told there's debris at Turn 7.
We don't see why.

They showed a replay when Webber and Schumacher had a contact.

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:56

Vettel's pace is yo-yoing at the moment

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:58

Rosberg pulled a Kamui-ish pass on Petrov at the hairpin!

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 09 Oct 2011, 06:59

ADx_Wales wrote:"You are allowed to race down the pitlane"

SINCE WHEN MARTIN!"?!?!?!?!!?

Since late last year apparently.

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 09 Oct 2011, 07:09

Alonso has jumped Vettel

WTF? Perez fastest lap

GwilymJJames · Post by **GwilymJJames** » 09 Oct 2011, 07:14

Perez Fastest Lap. :shock:

Schumacher Leads. :shock:

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 09 Oct 2011, 07:24

What the hell is with this TV feed? Three times it has been lost in one race?

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 09 Oct 2011, 07:26

Japanese Sattelite Delay

Bear In mind the radiation problems earlier this year may restrict the signal from somewhere, or maybe thats me being ignorant.

REMAIN INDOORS!

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 09 Oct 2011, 07:33

Ok Christian Horner we get it, you have a leg.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 09 Oct 2011, 07:35

Congratulations to Adrian Newey for designing a bulletproof car with the most flawless design that the rules allow.
Congratulations to Dietrich Matescheitz for having enough money to keep that car going, with the possible suggestion that the team may be spending over budget.
Congratulations to Mark Webber for being the finest of all deadbeat teammates.
Congratulations to the entire F1 organisation for managing to generate the most boring championship in the history of the sport (yes thats including 2002).
Congratulations to the fans who have had the wool pulled over their eyes in thinking that this season great (look at me being up since the start of the Bathurst 1000, and losing the ability to type). Lets face it nothing has been great this year anyways.
Congratulations to Bernie Ecclestone for making the british viewers decide not pay 5 times the license fee for the privilage to watch this sort of championship next season. (you think anyone's going to try and watch this sort of racing via justin tv next season? I certainly wont)
Congratulations to Sebastien Vettel for having an index finger and nothing more. The definitive boring champion, even Schumacher had the good grace to cheat (PROPERLY) once in a while.

(oh and for bonus points)

Congratulations to the tool that is going to react to this thinking that im a hardline troll.

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 09 Oct 2011, 07:37

Jenson hasn't put the steering wheel on, that could cost him the victory

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 09 Oct 2011, 07:37

ADx_Wales wrote:Congratulations to the fans who have had the wool pulled over their eyes in thinking that this season great. Lets face it nothing has been great this year anyways.

The championship has been boring, but the races (not including Valencia of course) have been pretty good.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 09 Oct 2011, 07:46

What crawled up Alonso's exhaust and died?

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 09 Oct 2011, 07:50

ADx_Wales wrote:Congratulations to Adrian Newey for designing a bulletproof car with the most flawless design that the rules allow.
Congratulations to Dietrich Matescheitz for having enough money to keep that car going, with the possible suggestion that the team may be spending over budget.
Congratulations to Mark Webber for being the finest of all deadbeat teammates.
Congratulations to the entire F1 organisation for managing to generate the most boring championship in the history of the sport (yes thats including 2002).
Congratulations to the fans who have had the wool pulled over their eyes in thinking that this season great (look at me being up since the start of the Bathurst 1000, and losing the ability to type). Lets face it nothing has been great this year anyways.
Congratulations to Bernie Ecclestone for making the british viewers decide not pay 5 times the license fee for the privilage to watch this sort of championship next season. (you think anyone's going to try and watch this sort of racing via justin tv next season? I certainly wont)
Congratulations to Sebastien Vettel for having an index finger and nothing more. The definitive boring champion, even Schumacher had the good grace to cheat (PROPERLY) once in a while.

(oh and for bonus points)

Congratulations to the tool that is going to react to this thinking that im a hardline troll.

Not a troll, but you do go on about it.

GwilymJJames · Post by **GwilymJJames** » 09 Oct 2011, 07:51

Congratulations to Vettel.

Next year is HRT's year.

Post by **mario** » 09 Oct 2011, 07:55

sswishbone wrote:Jenson hasn't put the steering wheel on, that could cost him the victory

Strictly speaking, Vettel shouldn't have gone to see the mechanics and greeted them in the way he did either, but somehow I doubt that he'll be penalised for that (neither Bernie or the FIA would want that sort of controversy, would they?). What might be more of a risk for McLaren might be Button's marginal fuel load (that is why he pulled off so quickly after the flag), because McLaren will need to provide the FIA with a fuel sample after the race.

Also, interesting comments by Button after the race there to Vettel - looks like he was still a little unhappy there with Vettel's move at the start (that comment about "Did you see me?" was a little barbed, given that Vettel had been looking in his mirror whilst still moving towards him). Also, curious how Red Bull were having to manage both Vettel and Webber in that race (the warning to "take no risks" to Webber as a hint for him to back off, and an indication that they had to tell Vettel to back off from Alonso after trying to reclaim second place).

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 09 Oct 2011, 07:56

Button also said 'so that's how we're racing' to Vettel at the end, looks like Button is not gonna be giving Vettel anything from now!

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 09 Oct 2011, 08:34

sswishbone wrote:Button also said 'so that's how we're racing' to Vettel at the end, looks like Button is not gonna be giving Vettel anything from now!

But I loved how classy it looked. Of course Button was happy to win and that did help, but I can't imagine Alonso or Hamilton doing it that way. "Ok, Sebastian, it's nothing personal, but I didn't like the way you pushed me into the grass. I may be smiling, but I'm serious: be careful with me next time, because I will drive the same way."

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 09 Oct 2011, 08:36

That reminded me a bit of how Hakkinen was with Schumacher after Spa 2000 - I don't think any other of Schumacher's rivals from the day would have done it that way!

IdeFan · Post by **IdeFan** » 09 Oct 2011, 08:41

fjackdaw wrote:
ADx_Wales wrote:Stuff.

Not a troll, but you do go on about it.

I got as far as the 2002 comparisons before realising its ADx_Wales and stopped reading.

Sometimes I suspect he doesn't actually watch the races and merely looks at the qualifying and race results, if you do that then this championship is very boring, but the actual on track action (unfortunately almost all of it behind Vettel) has been entertaining and compelling.

That said, this race did fall a little flat, at least by 2011 standards, most of the passing was done in the pits, and aside from a bit of tension for Button at the end (which he seemed to have well under control) there wasn't much action at the front.

Nice to see Button win, I have always been a fan but up until this year I always felt that whatever success he had required a hefty slice of luck, but in the second half of this season he has been driving better than ever (IMO) and is hopefully winning some of his critics over.

Hamilton's now in total meltdown, and I am ashamed to say I am taking some delight in it, I hope I don't turn into the next DonTirri!

@sswishbone - I think one can read more into that than is actually there, both Button and Vettel have pretty good records when it comes to on-track shenanigans, and I don't think either man is one to hold a grudge, the fact that Jenson went on to win moves it to more of a cheeky comment than genuine frustration for me.

Post by **Londoner** » 09 Oct 2011, 08:53

IdeFan wrote:
Nice to see Button win, I have always been a fan but up until this year I always felt that whatever success he had required a hefty slice of luck, but in the second half of this season he has been driving better than ever (IMO) and is hopefully winning some of his critics over.

Hamilton's now in total meltdown, and I am ashamed to say I am taking some delight in it, I hope I don't turn into the next DonTirri!

What really delights me this season is that people are finally seeing what I've said about Hamilton since about Japan 2007, that he is a dangerous, overated idiot. How much of that was down to Lewisteria, I don't know, I actually started respecting him again after China and Spain this year, but then came that atrocious, petulant performance at Monaco...

I've always supported Button, even through the dark days of rampant Lewisteria in 2007/2008, and it always makes me happy to see him succeed.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 09 Oct 2011, 09:31

I genuinely used to think Hamilton was the best driver out there, but...

What if rain had hold off for a couple more minutes that day in Brazil? Or if the Piquet-gate had never happened? What would be Hamilton's reputation right now? The "next best thing" who managed to throw away two championships he had all but won and, after five years, still has to win one? The guy who was defeated by journeyman Massa, the same Massa who most of the time is 0.5s slower than Alonso? These days he's starting to look like Webber, granted he's still very fast and most of the time still has the measure of Button over a lap, but what's that worth if he keeps running into trouble?

As much as I didn't like his father, I think he was a far better manager than whoever is running (ruining?) Lewis' career now, and in retrospective, maybe Anthony saw this coming, tried to avoid it but Lewis didn't accept it, and that's why they split. Not actually a criticism of Lewis -you can't live forever under the shadow of your parents-, but is it a coincidence that, since they split, he looks more and more unfocused?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 09 Oct 2011, 10:03

Ferrim wrote:What if rain had hold off for a couple more minutes that day in Brazil?

It was because of the rain he nearly lost the championship in the first place :roll:

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 09 Oct 2011, 10:05

Wizzie wrote:
Ferrim wrote:What if rain had hold off for a couple more minutes that day in Brazil?

It was because of the rain he nearly lost the championship in the first place

I think he means the rain that made Timo Glock so slow on that last lap.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 09 Oct 2011, 10:12

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
Ferrim wrote:What if rain had hold off for a couple more minutes that day in Brazil?

It was because of the rain he nearly lost the championship in the first place

I think he means the rain that made Timo Glock so slow on that last lap.

It was the same rain that allowed Vettel to get past Hamilton in the first place :lol:

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 09 Oct 2011, 10:30

Ok, I guess it was a bit silly "what if", but you get what I meant.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 09 Oct 2011, 11:18

Also if Sebastian Bourdais hadn't got that ridiculous penalty in Japan for the Massa collision which promoted Massa a place (and robbed Bourdais of his best-ever finish), then Hamilton wouldn't have had to have passed Glock in Brazil either.

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 09 Oct 2011, 11:35

James1978 wrote:Also if Sebastian Bourdais hadn't got that ridiculous penalty in Japan for the Massa collision which promoted Massa a place (and robbed Bourdais of his best-ever finish), then Hamilton wouldn't have had to have passed Glock in Brazil either.

Behind Massa, Bourdais probably had the worst luck in 2008 of all drivers; Melbourne, Spa, Monza, Japan etc.

However, the bigger what if, as alluded to earlier, is the crash-gate saga, as while dodgy stewards decisions, as in human error, is a part of sport, race fixing is not, and it's a massive shame that those disgraceful actions played such a big role in the championship battle.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 09 Oct 2011, 12:17

Ed24 wrote:
James1978 wrote:Also if Sebastian Bourdais hadn't got that ridiculous penalty in Japan for the Massa collision which promoted Massa a place (and robbed Bourdais of his best-ever finish), then Hamilton wouldn't have had to have passed Glock in Brazil either.

Behind Massa, Bourdais probably had the worst luck in 2008 of all drivers; Melbourne, Spa, Monza, Japan etc.

However, the bigger what if, as alluded to earlier, is the crash-gate saga, as while dodgy stewards decisions, as in human error, is a part of sport, race fixing is not, and it's a massive shame that those disgraceful actions played such a big role in the championship battle.

Yeah, Massa probably would've won that race - as I remember, he was leading strongly until the infamous safety car, which resulted in him pitting and leaving the pits with the fuel rig. I'd imagine that, in a less high-pressure situation, the stop would've gone smoother.

What's interesting to note about Hamilton, though, is that he has only 4 podiums throughout this year, and you have to say that the McLaren this year isn't that bad. Even in 2009 he got on the podium 5 times (although there still are 4 races to run this year). Alonso and Webber both have twice as many podiums as him. Out of the 4 drivers behind Vettel, Hamilton was the first to make 3 podium appearances, but the last to make a 4th, and since his win in Germany, he has had not one clean race with the exception of Monza, where he was instead too cautious.

I definitely think Button has psyched Hamilton out a lot this season, if you think back to China, Hamilton made that excellent pass on Button into the first corner which contributed to his win. Later on he tried to do something similar in Canada only to crash out, and at Italy the roles were reversed, and instead it's Button sailing past both Hamilton and Schumacher who held off Hamilton for 20-odd laps. I don't think it's any coincidence that Lewis' drop in form began at Hungary, a race where through a mixture of luck and different driving styles, Button took a win Hamilton thought should have been his.

Just putting that out there.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 09 Oct 2011, 12:21

GwilymJJames wrote:Congratulations to Vettel.

Next year is Nick Heidfeld's year.

Fixed

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 09 Oct 2011, 12:21

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Yeah, Massa probably would've won that race - as I remember, he was leading strongly until the infamous safety car, which resulted in him pitting and leaving the pits with the fuel rig. I'd imagine that, in a less high-pressure situation, the stop would've gone smoother.

Yes, and even if they did screw up the pitstop, the field would've been more spread out and he wouldn't have had a dangerous release into Sutil, so he would've salvaged some points. It's not a surprise that Massa's bitter towards Piquet!

Singapore 2008 is probably the most influential race in F1 over the past 10 years, apart from title deciders I suppose. If that was a legitimate race, Massa may've been champion, Hamilton may've been even more of a mental wreck (as discussed earlier), Renault may have pulled out of F1 earlier or still be there with Briatore - maybe preventing the whole Group Lotus/Team Lotus saga, Piquet would probably still be driving for a lower team etc. etc.

QuickYoda41 · Post by **QuickYoda41** » 09 Oct 2011, 12:32

It was a race from the past, tactical era - it still was great with the 3 big teams being so close to each other.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 09 Oct 2011, 13:43

Well, this was a pretty boring race, I have to say. I'm glad for Vettel to be World Champion, he's had a virtually flawless year and he really deserves it. The only point I want to commentate is, how come Hamilton wasn't penalized for his near-clash with Massa? All along the year he's been unfairly punished, and now that he finally deserved it, they let him go? Those race stewards will never cease to amaze me...

And I'm also sad for Kobayashi, he was far from repeating last year's heroics and had his back end properly kicked by Pérez

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 09 Oct 2011, 13:48

Phoenix wrote: The only point I want to commentate is, how come Hamilton wasn't penalized for his near-clash with Massa? All along the year he's been unfairly punished, and now that he finally deserved it, they let him go? Those race stewards will never cease to amaze me...

Firstly, I wouldn't be surprised if Alan Jones had a more liberal attitude to what constitutes dangerous driving than some of the other guest stewards we've had.

Also, I think the stewards are more and more considering the consequences of the actions, not just the actions on merit - which is a mistake, I think. I'm sure if Massa had a puncture, or lost control and went into the fence, it would've been a penalty. It's the same as what happened at Spa, if it was Kobayashi, not Hamilton, that retired, I'm sure Lewis would've been given a drive-through.

I think that it should definitely have been a reprimand for Hamilton, at least. His lack of spatial awareness and nous in the car this year continues to astound me.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 09 Oct 2011, 15:49

Ed24 wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Yeah, Massa probably would've won that race - as I remember, he was leading strongly until the infamous safety car, which resulted in him pitting and leaving the pits with the fuel rig. I'd imagine that, in a less high-pressure situation, the stop would've gone smoother.

Yes, and even if they did screw up the pitstop, the field would've been more spread out and he wouldn't have had a dangerous release into Sutil, so he would've salvaged some points. It's not a surprise that Massa's bitter towards Piquet!

Singapore 2008 is probably the most influential race in F1 over the past 10 years, apart from title deciders I suppose. If that was a legitimate race, Massa may've been champion, Hamilton may've been even more of a mental wreck (as discussed earlier), Renault may have pulled out of F1 earlier or still be there with Briatore - maybe preventing the whole Group Lotus/Team Lotus saga, Piquet would probably still be driving for a lower team etc. etc.

You could probably write a book on all the 'what if's and 'might have been's as well as what actually happened in that race. Would make for interesting reading.

Post by **mario** » 09 Oct 2011, 16:35

Ed24 wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Yeah, Massa probably would've won that race - as I remember, he was leading strongly until the infamous safety car, which resulted in him pitting and leaving the pits with the fuel rig. I'd imagine that, in a less high-pressure situation, the stop would've gone smoother.

Yes, and even if they did screw up the pitstop, the field would've been more spread out and he wouldn't have had a dangerous release into Sutil, so he would've salvaged some points. It's not a surprise that Massa's bitter towards Piquet!

Singapore 2008 is probably the most influential race in F1 over the past 10 years, apart from title deciders I suppose. If that was a legitimate race, Massa may've been champion, Hamilton may've been even more of a mental wreck (as discussed earlier), Renault may have pulled out of F1 earlier or still be there with Briatore - maybe preventing the whole Group Lotus/Team Lotus saga, Piquet would probably still be driving for a lower team etc. etc.

Throughout that season, though, there are so many different iterations of events that could have happened and lead to very different championship outcomes with more than one potential championship winner - let's not forget that after the British GP, which marked the mid point of the season, that Hamilton, Massa and Kimi were all on the same points total - 48 points - with Kubica only two points further back. You could even argue that, in the opening few rounds at least, that even Nick Heidfeld was in contention for the title, and after the British GP he was still just about in touch with the front runners on 36 points.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but we do not know how any of those drivers, or their respective teams, would have approached the latter half of that season in light of what we know now, or had various events taken place in a different fashion. We could easily be talking about Kubica taking the title that season, or how Kimi was a double world champion - because Kimi, being stuck behind Massa in the pit lane blunder in Singapore, lost out quite heavily too, and he could easily have scored a podium or even won that race himself and put himself back into contention (he was still on course for 5th place when he crashed, having fallen to 17th during the safety car period) - so it is by no means as simple as just being down to Massa v Hamilton at the end of the season.

However, that is a very different discussion, so perhaps we should move forwards to the modern day instead, and in particular this comment:

Phoenix wrote:Well, this was a pretty boring race, I have to say. I'm glad for Vettel to be World Champion, he's had a virtually flawless year and he really deserves it. The only point I want to commentate is, how come Hamilton wasn't penalized for his near-clash with Massa? All along the year he's been unfairly punished, and now that he finally deserved it, they let him go? Those race stewards will never cease to amaze me...

And I'm also sad for Kobayashi, he was far from repeating last year's heroics and had his back end properly kicked by Pérez

As ever, throughout this season the long standing complaint that the stewards have been inconsistent in their judgements remains, and it shows all the way down the grid. For example, in Belgium we saw that Timo Glock and Bruno Senna were given penalties for colliding with another car, which you could say is fair enough (both drivers were somewhat out of control at the start) though Perez, IIRC, was not given any penalty despite running into the back of Buemi later in the race and forcing him out.

The driver steward often confuses things further given that many of them have had different attitudes to racing (Alan Jones, for example, was known for getting into quite a few scrapes on track and probably would have thought that the Massa-Hamilton collision was not a patch on what the drivers in his day got up to). Many have called for a panel of professional stewards, instead of the current ad hoc system drawing on a disparate collection of national representatives, in the same way that most other sports have professional regulators, and I would agree with the idea that employing professional stewards would be a good idea. That way, though we wouldn't always agree with the decisions made by the stewards and race control, hopefully we could have that sense of consistency which is missing right now.

Anyway, in case you are curious, the official decision by the stewards on the Hamilton-Massa collision is as follows:

STEWARDS DECISION
No /Driver : 3 Lewis Hamilton
Competitor : Vodafone McLaren Mercedes
Time : 15:39
Having viewed the video evidence in relation to the action of the driver of Car 3 at Turn 16 and after comparing the line that Lewis Hamilton took on the previous lap, and having noted that Car 6 Felipe Massa was attempting to overtake on the left into a right hand corner the Stewards decide to take no further action.
The FIA Stewards of the Meeting
Garry Connelly, Jose Abed, Alan Jones, Kazunari Yamanashi

In addition, Toro Rosso have received a €5,000 fine for an unsafe release (the loose wheel on Buemi's car), which is hardly surprising or contentious.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 09 Oct 2011, 16:50

why didn't Button just bin in into vettel's car at the start? penalty or not, vettel wouldn't have finished, giving Button more of a chance.
admittedly the season has been a bit dreary. one of the very small amount of exciting things was hamilton vs schumi in italy.
hopefully there's some sort of rule added on or taken away that somehow brings everyone else up to speed with the red bulls. what Mclaren needs is a 6 Cylinder Twin Turbo Honda. but 2013 isn't here yet. argh!

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 09 Oct 2011, 17:04

Ferrim wrote:But I loved how classy it looked. Of course Button was happy to win and that did help, but I can't imagine Alonso or Hamilton doing it that way. "Ok, Sebastian, it's nothing personal, but I didn't like the way you pushed me into the grass. I may be smiling, but I'm serious: be careful with me next time, because I will drive the same way."

That's because Jenson is a gentleman, and not a spoilt brat like his team mate, who if it were not for McLaren being essentially 'his' team would be out on his ear for next year by now.