2012 Silly Season

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 14 Dec 2011, 21:08

BaconLettuceNinja wrote:I blame the clingers-on who clearly don't know when to give up (Trulli and de la Rosa, I'm looking at you two.)

And Schumacher and Webber and Barrichello.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 14 Dec 2011, 21:13

eytl wrote:On further thought, this reflects really poorly on Marko and the Red Bull young driver program. Just when they've got Buemi and DJ Squire to a decent level of consistency, they dump them. What a waste of the last 3 years. Plus they'll miss their experience next year when Ricciardo and Vergne struggle on set-up.

The young driver program has developed no-one they've wanted to keep long term except Vettel. That's a fail in my books.

As much as I am going to raise the ire of this board when I say this, in order to both make their young driver program worth its time and to actually make an improvement in the driver department, they should have sacked Webber and taken Alguersuari for the 2012 drive. As much as I like Webber as a person, he was not good enough this year to actually be worth retaining a spot in the best car currently in F1. Odds are he is only retained because he makes for a good little slave to Vettel and is not even likely to challenge him next year which cannot be said for Alguersuari who - oh shock! - might fight with Vettel for wins.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 14 Dec 2011, 21:17

eytl wrote:On further thought, this reflects really poorly on Marko and the Red Bull young driver program. Just when they've got Buemi and DJ Squire to a decent level of consistency, they dump them. What a waste of the last 3 years. Plus they'll miss their experience next year when Ricciardo and Vergne struggle on set-up.

The young driver program has developed no-one they've wanted to keep long term except Vettel. That's a fail in my books.

When you consider the line between success and failure in their team is "Become the best driver on earth or you're fired" it's not quite so bad.
Plus, I don't think they should have given up on Alguersuari. He may have been around for a few season now but has everyone forgotten how young he is? If he were to win the world championship in 2012 he'd be the youngest ever champion, and if he won in 2013 he'd still be the second youngest!

The real question should be - are drivers being moved up the racing ladder too quickly?

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 14 Dec 2011, 21:41

Ricciardo is OK, but Vergne? Jeez, Toro Rosso WILL hire anybody these days! Buemi at Force India anyone?

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 14 Dec 2011, 22:00

I can add no more, except.. what is Franz Tost doing?

Never mind what he's doing... if only I could obtain some actual, real F1RMGP cars and have then run with all the drivers out of work in a separate championship, we'd have something extra to watch. Maybe I'll ask FTM, the deflowered Virgins and HRT where they're hiding their 2010 cars...

...although I know there's one VR-01 in the ex-Virgin factory (evidence: here and here, redecorated in MVR-02 colours) and there's the one with mutant sidepods that might or might not still be in UST Global's office.

S951 · Post by **S951** » 14 Dec 2011, 22:30

fair play the vr01 was a nice looking car

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 14 Dec 2011, 22:35

Crikey, I didn't expect Toro Rosso to replace both drivers. (Or, indeed, either of them really!)

The Red Bull driver programme is quite ruthless, isn't it?

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 14 Dec 2011, 23:08

And we thought this silly season was going to be monotone :shock:

Seriously, I was expecting Buemi to be dropped and replaced with Ricciardo, but I thought they would've given Alguersuari another year to prove his worth, and that would've been fair. I think they've gone a step too far.

Minardi Man · Post by **Minardi Man** » 14 Dec 2011, 23:16

So many of the teams this year seem to be going for either inexperience over decent, SLIGHTLY older, but better experienced drivers (Torro Rosso with both seats now and Lotus) or just going for the worst option available to them (Ferrari, Red Bull, Lotus, H.R.T and Caterham)

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 14 Dec 2011, 23:42

TBH honest, after thinking more about Webber and Massa keeping their seats, I thought, is there a sure-fire more efficient option? Sergio Pérez still needs nurturing and I'm very unsure about Kubica. As for Red Bull, I think Alguersuari needed to improve a bit more, but he was on the right way and now they've dumped him. Take a seat, because who knows if Massa and Webber will prolonge their tenures in 2013...

QuickYoda41 · Post by **QuickYoda41** » 14 Dec 2011, 23:47

I have no problem with Webber staying - he had an average year after a few strong ones, he deserves another chance IMO. Felipe just got that another chance this year, and he was even worse than last year.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 15 Dec 2011, 00:53

Phoenix wrote:TBH honest, after thinking more about Webber and Massa keeping their seats, I thought, is there a sure-fire more efficient option? Sergio Pérez still needs nurturing and I'm very unsure about Kubica. As for Red Bull, I think Alguersuari needed to improve a bit more, but he was on the right way and now they've dumped him. Take a seat, because who knows if Massa and Webber will prolonge their tenures in 2013...

If Ferrari keep Massa after 2012 and he didn't pull another 2008 out of his ass, I think perhaps we need to be questioning Ferrari's driver choices - I reckon about half of the drivers on the market now could probably do a better job than Felipe. He's lucky enough to still be there for 2012.

golic_2004 · Post by **golic_2004** » 15 Dec 2011, 01:00

fjackdaw wrote:I still think Klein is one of the biggest wasted talents of the last few years - dropped by TR for no real reason, and having not found a seat since.

He was actually dumped by Red Bull. He was the original Red Bull driver, along with Coulthard. He never drove for Toro Rosso.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 15 Dec 2011, 01:07

golic_2004 wrote:
fjackdaw wrote:I still think Klein is one of the biggest wasted talents of the last few years - dropped by TR for no real reason, and having not found a seat since.

He was actually dumped by Red Bull. He was the original Red Bull driver, along with Coulthard. He never drove for Toro Rosso.

Ah yes. Still another casualty of that particular roundabout though.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 15 Dec 2011, 03:16

"I want to splinter the Red Bull Junior Programme into a million pieces and scatter it to the winds." -JFK

It's evil being done against Buemi and Alguersuari. Being shown the door after a brilliant season for both drivers. For what? Two hugely overhyped drivers, with little more than average lower formulae results.

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 15 Dec 2011, 03:37

I wouldn't say Ricciardo is over-hyped. He did a pretty good job last year at HRT to get rid of the 'over-hype' tag. But Vergne? Two Friday morning runs and he gets a seat he doesn't deserve? So very, very wrong. Alguersuari must be absolutely gutted. I feel really sorry for him. Buemi on the other hand, I wasn't his biggest fan. But both shouldve been given another chance.

Anyway, wasn't the while point of Toro Rosso having young drivers, the opportunity to mature them into Red Bull drivers? Seems like a waste of nearly 3 years.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Dec 2011, 04:05

Paul Hambery, Pirelli's man on the ground in F1 just posted this on twitter: “@f1peter27: @PaulHembery If you were in charge of @clubforce who would you pick as 2012 drivers?” Di Resta Hulkenberg confirmed

What he means by confirmed remains to be seen.

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 15 Dec 2011, 04:11

To play the devil's advocate, I have to wonder if Red Bull are now thinking it may have been better for them to sack Webber after 2011. Then they could've placed Alguersuari alongside Vettel and maybe Buemi at HRT or Caterham, and they needn't have lost any young talents.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 15 Dec 2011, 04:30

I wonder if DJ Squire has a shot at one of the Force India or other drives that are now available? I don't really care about Sebastien Borat to be honest...

Boomstick · Post by **Boomstick** » 15 Dec 2011, 06:20

Ed24 wrote:To play the devil's advocate, I have to wonder if Red Bull are now thinking it may have been better for them to sack Webber after 2011. Then they could've placed Alguersuari alongside Vettel and maybe Buemi at HRT or Caterham, and they needn't have lost any young talents.

Same here, tho I wonder what cards Webber had this year when Negotiating with Red Bul this year for next year? Maybe information on how he was treated in 2010 and the potential (media) damage it could do to Seb?

/Long time lurker
//first post!
///Hey guys!

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 15 Dec 2011, 07:11

Klon wrote:
eytl wrote:On further thought, this reflects really poorly on Marko and the Red Bull young driver program. Just when they've got Buemi and DJ Squire to a decent level of consistency, they dump them. What a waste of the last 3 years. Plus they'll miss their experience next year when Ricciardo and Vergne struggle on set-up.

The young driver program has developed no-one they've wanted to keep long term except Vettel. That's a fail in my books.

As much as I am going to raise the ire of this board when I say this, in order to both make their young driver program worth its time and to actually make an improvement in the driver department, they should have sacked Webber and taken Alguersuari for the 2012 drive. As much as I like Webber as a person, he was not good enough this year to actually be worth retaining a spot in the best car currently in F1. Odds are he is only retained because he makes for a good little slave to Vettel and is not even likely to challenge him next year which cannot be said for Alguersuari who - oh shock! - might fight with Vettel for wins.

I - almost - tend to agree.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 15 Dec 2011, 07:18

Toro Rosso and the driver development program have largely failed. There are too many drivers and not enough seats to go around, and the team has been too hesitant to be a little ruthless and take drivers out of the equation. Buemi should have been dumped for this year, and Alguersuari should have been promoted for 2012.

That's the problem with Toro Rosso: they're not a real team. They're a holding pen for Red Bull. As soon as a driver shows promise, they are snapped up and put into Red Bull, effectively making Toro Rosso the only team on the grid that physically cannot compete with the other teams, because Red Bull will raid them the moment they start coming good. If Red Bull want to evaluate drivers, then they have GP2 and FR3.5 for that.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 15 Dec 2011, 10:09

AdrianSutil wrote:I wouldn't say Ricciardo is over-hyped. He did a pretty good job last year at HRT to get rid of the 'over-hype' tag. But Vergne? Two Friday morning runs and he gets a seat he doesn't deserve? So very, very wrong. Alguersuari must be absolutely gutted. I feel really sorry for him. Buemi on the other hand, I wasn't his biggest fan. But both shouldve been given another chance.

Anyway, wasn't the while point of Toro Rosso having young drivers, the opportunity to mature them into Red Bull drivers? Seems like a waste of nearly 3 years.

Ever since the start, Red Bull has been hyping up both Ricciardo and Verne as the next Sebastian Vettels. Tell m that isn't overhyping.

Unless your name is Sebastian Vettel, then your career will not prosper much beyond your Torro Rosso years. The STR drivers are meant to one day graduate to the Red Bull team, but with fingerboy locking out one seat for another 10 years, and Webber not doing poorly enough to make Red Bull replace him, let alone with someone lacking experience. Even then, Red Bull have set high standards it seems for not only keeping your STR seat, but to graduate to a Red Bull seat. The one man to ever do it, Vettel, had to pole and win a race before he was promoted, and you could say that probably wouldn't have happened unless Coulthard retired.

It's just going to be an ultimate failure when you have something like 10 drivers going for 2 seats that may never be available for several years.

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 15 Dec 2011, 10:24

DJ Squire Surprised

And with good reason. I echo most of the replies here in saying that Alguersuari deserved another season. Buemi in my mind was questionable, but quite frankly, disappointing to see both of them out just like that.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 15 Dec 2011, 11:02

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula ... 187987.stm

As Brundle tweeted it earlier "Buemi + Alguersuari have had a magic carpet ride to F1 courtesy of loyal Red Bull millions. They are not the next Vettel or Hamilton."

Well, quite.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 15 Dec 2011, 11:06

Being discussed in the Silly Season thread.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 15 Dec 2011, 11:10

Ooops, sorry Im new.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 15 Dec 2011, 11:12

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:DJ Squire Surprised

And with good reason. I echo most of the replies here in saying that Alguersuari deserved another season. Buemi in my mind was questionable, but quite frankly, disappointing to see both of them out just like that.

And he seems to be a very good lad too from those declarations. I hope someone throws him a lifeline (yes, Caterham, I am looking at you!).

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 15 Dec 2011, 11:36

CoopsII wrote:Ooops, sorry Im new.

Really?

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 15 Dec 2011, 11:47

eagleash wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Ooops, sorry Im new.

Really?

I will take advantage of this and push this thread further away from its topic by welcoming back the new/old Coops. So without further ado:

Welcome back, new!

madmark1974 · Post by **madmark1974** » 15 Dec 2011, 11:50

CoopsII wrote:Ooops, sorry Im new.

Spambot????

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 15 Dec 2011, 11:54

DanielPT wrote:I will take advantage of this and push this thread further away from its topic by welcoming back the new/old Coops. So without further ado:

Welcome back, new!

Obrigado!

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 15 Dec 2011, 11:59

The decision STR did makes it probably more difficult to evaluate:

They should have kept one and hire a new one, therefore there's chance to see if Ricciardo/Vergne is really better than Alguersuari/Buemi.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 15 Dec 2011, 12:12

Yeah, I am somewhat surprised at discarding the Saurus too. He seemed to have a decent grasp of F1 and was quite consistent too. Hope he gets taken on elsewhere. Buemi though, had become stale. He had been at TR for long enough so he needed to show more or move.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 15 Dec 2011, 12:15

It's absolutely alarming at the number of drivers being unceremoniously dumped at this late stage, especially ones who I think deserve better given how they've performed this year (Petrov, Alguersuari, probably Sutil too if the Force take Di Resta and the Hulk.....). Also think Barrichello is more deserving of a seat more than any of the other veterans except possibly Schumacher (and Webber if you class him as one, I don't yet!).

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 15 Dec 2011, 12:36

CoopsII wrote:Ooops, sorry Im new.

And just to prove I don't only welcome the girls round here, Welcome (back) Coops (II)!

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 15 Dec 2011, 12:40

dr-baker wrote:And just to prove I don't only welcome the girls round here, Welcome (back) Coops (II)!

It's too late. You have already scared her. :lol:

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 15 Dec 2011, 12:47

What? You've got girls on here now?

8-)

Frentzen127 · Post by **Frentzen127** » 15 Dec 2011, 12:51

CoopsII wrote:What? You've got girls on here now?

None your age if that's where you're going.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 15 Dec 2011, 12:54

Frentzen127 wrote:
CoopsII wrote:What? You've got girls on here now?

None your age if that's where you're going.

You really know how to stick it in and break it off, dontcha