2012 Silly Season

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 17 Dec 2011, 11:49

Minardi Man wrote:Doesn't matter how endearing he is, he has got promise

Tell that to team principals. There are plenty of talented drivers out there who aren't utter prats when it comes to receiving offers from teams.

Post by **mario** » 17 Dec 2011, 12:12

Captain Hammer wrote:I think it's much simpler than that - if Williams offered Hulkenberg a seat, he would probably turn it down because they're not very competitive. That's what rubs me the wrong way about Hulkenberg: he seems to be demanding the most competitive car available. And while every driver has the right to expect that, Hulkenberg does seem to give the impression that he feels certain teams are beneath him. In the same interview where he revealed Virgin had approached them, Willi Weber said that Hispania had also come knocking, but Hulkenberg did not want to be driving such an uncompetitive car. Compare that to the likes of di Grassi and d'Ambrosio and Pic and van der Garde who are taking whatever they can get (or trying to get whatever they can find) and are making the most of it. Sure, d'Ambrosio is trundling around three seconds off the pace, but not once has he complained about it. And the fact that he was so close to Timo Glock on such a regular basis means that he certainly deserved being considered for a 2012 drive. But the way Hulkenberg turns his nose up at certain seats does not endear him to me in the slightest.

Against that, the context in which Hulkenberg made those decisions should be borne in mind - remember, in the off season there were concerns over whether HRT would even survive (the F111 was barely ready in time for scruitineering in Australia, and afterwards the team admitted it was a relief they'd DNQ'd because the mechanics were worn out after working through the night to get them ready for qualifying), let alone how competitive they'd be.
As for MVR, being a second driver for them didn't pay off for either Di Grassi or D'Ambrosio, especially since the latter has been thrown out rather unceremoniously despite putting in some relatively good performances. Asides from the high probability of being thrown out of the team for a pay driver at the end of the year regardless of how well he performed, it has to be said that Glock's career is basically stagnating right now (which is a shame because I do think he deserves a better car).

Yes, perhaps Hulkenberg may have been fussy to some extent when picking his drives, but you can kind of see why he wouldn't be keen on driving for either of the two tail end teams - at best he'd probably be on a one way ticket into anonymity, and at worst potentially being kicked out before the end of the year (see what happened to Karthikeyan). Whether or not you agree with it is another matter, but you can kind of see the logic behind his actions.

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 17 Dec 2011, 12:45

Captain Hammer wrote:I think it's much simpler than that - if Williams offered Hulkenberg a seat, he would probably turn it down because they're not very competitive. That's what rubs me the wrong way about Hulkenberg: he seems to be demanding the most competitive car available. And while every driver has the right to expect that, Hulkenberg does seem to give the impression that he feels certain teams are beneath him. In the same interview where he revealed Virgin had approached them, Willi Weber said that Hispania had also come knocking, but Hulkenberg did not want to be driving such an uncompetitive car. Compare that to the likes of di Grassi and d'Ambrosio and Pic and van der Garde who are taking whatever they can get (or trying to get whatever they can find) and are making the most of it. Sure, d'Ambrosio is trundling around three seconds off the pace, but not once has he complained about it. And the fact that he was so close to Timo Glock on such a regular basis means that he certainly deserved being considered for a 2012 drive. But the way Hulkenberg turns his nose up at certain seats does not endear him to me in the slightest.

Seems like sensible career management to me. Drivers only have a short time to establish themselves, and trundling around in a truck for a year can be a very effective way to stall a career. It may be risky to be fussy but making the wrong car choice can destroy your reputation. Ask Jacques Villeneuve and indeed Michael Schumacher. Virgin does not seem to have done much done much good for d'Ambrosio either.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 17 Dec 2011, 18:06

Do you really think Hulkenberg would want to move to a team that would effectively be career ending? A football equivalent would be moving from a benchwarmer at Newcastle United to regular starter at Al-Ahli. The UAE Pro-League is where careers go to die. Just like the three new teams is where F1 careers go to die. OK, so Senna managed 6 months at Lotus-Renault but lets be honest, that was at least partly to do with his name & the extra sponsorship it brought for a while.

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 17 Dec 2011, 18:25

So, Sutil has been thanked for pretty much, 6 years work.

I don't mind him being turfed out on his ear, it happened to Liuzzi last year. But I'll be pretty cheesed off if Williams don't go for him now. He'll bring a load of experience, won't cost a lot, personal sponsorship from Medion and would love to be a 'proper' number one. Come on Frank...

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 17 Dec 2011, 18:48

AdrianSutil wrote:So, Sutil has been thanked for pretty much, 6 years work.
I don't mind him being turfed out on his ear, it happened to Liuzzi last year. But I'll be pretty cheesed off if Williams don't go for him now. He'll bring a load of experience, won't cost a lot, personal sponsorship from Medion and would love to be a 'proper' number one. Come on Frank...

I think hes a shoe-in at Williams now. I still hope Rubens gets a stay of career-execution though, however unlikely that may now be.

14 Hundred Hours · Post by **14 Hundred Hours** » 17 Dec 2011, 19:03

kostas22 wrote:Do you really think Hulkenberg would want to move to a team that would effectively be career ending? A football equivalent would be moving from a benchwarmer at Newcastle United to regular starter at Al-Ahli. The UAE Pro-League is where careers go to die. Just like the three new teams is where F1 careers go to die. OK, so Senna managed 6 months at Lotus-Renault but lets be honest, that was at least partly to do with his name & the extra sponsorship it brought for a while.

Someone's going to be desperate enough to go to HRT though... just who though it remains to be seen.
And good football analogy! Seeing as the two sporting teams I support are Force India and Newcastle it works doubly well!

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 18 Dec 2011, 00:33

RIP Sutil's career

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 18 Dec 2011, 00:52

kostas22 wrote:A football equivalent would be moving from a benchwarmer at Newcastle United to regular starter at Al-Ahli. The UAE Pro-League is where careers go to die.

Not being British, I'm afraid your football analogies and metaphors make about as much sense to me as a Tim Burton film. In other words, I have no idea what you just said.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 18 Dec 2011, 01:13

Captain Hammer wrote:
kostas22 wrote:A football equivalent would be moving from a benchwarmer at Newcastle United to regular starter at Al-Ahli. The UAE Pro-League is where careers go to die.

Not being British, I'm afraid your football analogies and metaphors make about as much sense to me as a Tim Burton film. In other words, I have no idea what you just said.

To make it clearer think Nick Carle or Paul Ifill moving from Crystal Palace to crap Australian team.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 18 Dec 2011, 02:03

Still means nothing to me.

RealRacingRoots · Post by **RealRacingRoots** » 18 Dec 2011, 08:36

While there are only a pair of race seats left, there are still almost all of the Test Driver seats to be filled. Now THIS is something I can't wait for announcements, some of the Silly drivers getting the test role.

Here's hoping Chandhok nails the Force India test role.

Aerond · Post by **Aerond** » 18 Dec 2011, 10:00

i think whatever Force India did, it would be considered as the wrong choice, as they had three competitive drivers out there. Now, I think Sutil and Petrov are going to fill the two spots left. i would like Alguersuari to go to HRT but he doesn't have the money. what i really like about this is the large number of driver changes we're witnessing and the fact that HRT is going to have a strong driver pairing.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 18 Dec 2011, 10:22

Aerond wrote:...and the fact that HRT is going to have a strong driver pairing.

Which leaves our friends at Marussia between a rock and a hard place with an increasingly uninterested Glock in one car and a rookie in Charles Pic in the other.

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 18 Dec 2011, 10:23

Captain Hammer wrote:Still means nothing to me.

I agree with Captain Hammer. Must be Christmas.

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 18 Dec 2011, 10:34

Wizzie wrote:
Aerond wrote:...and the fact that HRT is going to have a strong driver pairing.

Which leaves our friends at Marussia between a rock and a hard place with an increasingly uninterested Glock in one car and a rookie in Charles Pic in the other.

This. Caterham have a massively impressive Kovalainen and a still-intereted-but-getting-on-a-bit Trulli. Although I wouldn't be surprised to see him 'paid-off' and Caterham signing a young charger like Alguersuari. HRT are biding their time and I just hope they don't put a rookie in their car. I might be getting ahead of myself a bit, but wait a week or two and I can see established drivers fighting over that seat, just to remain in F1.

Having said all that, Toro Rosso have the worst line-up so far, Ricciardo has done half a season at the back and Vergne has done what, three Friday mornings and a young driver test? I can see them slipping to the back of the midfield a la Williams 2011 n

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 18 Dec 2011, 12:10

14 Hundred Hours wrote:Seeing as the two sporting teams I support are Force India and Newcastle it works doubly well!

Seeing as the two sporting teams I support are Williams and Birmingham, anything I support is doomed to failure.

jpm · Post by **jpm** » 18 Dec 2011, 13:13

AdrianSutil wrote:Having said all that, Toro Rosso have the worst line-up so far, Ricciardo has done half a season at the back and Vergne has done what, three Friday mornings and a young driver test? I can see them slipping to the back of the midfield a la Williams 2011 n

Couldn't disagree more. Bold statement warning: Force India and Toro Rosso in 2012 will have drivers who will all win WDC in the future (plus Valterri Bottas at Williams.) There, I said it.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 18 Dec 2011, 13:17

jpm wrote:
AdrianSutil wrote:Having said all that, Toro Rosso have the worst line-up so far, Ricciardo has done half a season at the back and Vergne has done what, three Friday mornings and a young driver test? I can see them slipping to the back of the midfield a la Williams 2011 n

Couldn't disagree more. Bold statement warning: Force India and Toro Rosso in 2012 will have drivers who will all win WDC in the future (plus Valterri Bottas at Williams.) There, I said it.

The scary part, is if they can manage to survive their first 3 seasons, that could very well happen for at least half of them (my money is on Vergne and Di Resta.

QuickYoda41 · Post by **QuickYoda41** » 18 Dec 2011, 13:30

jpm wrote:
AdrianSutil wrote:Having said all that, Toro Rosso have the worst line-up so far, Ricciardo has done half a season at the back and Vergne has done what, three Friday mornings and a young driver test? I can see them slipping to the back of the midfield a la Williams 2011 n

Couldn't disagree more. Bold statement warning: Force India and Toro Rosso in 2012 will have drivers who will all win WDC in the future (plus Valterri Bottas at Williams.) There, I said it.

Wow, that's brave.

I don't think it's possible that all of them will win. (Yeah, I'm not that brave with this statement. :lol:

) (Especially not Vergne :twisted:

)

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 18 Dec 2011, 17:53

jpm wrote:
AdrianSutil wrote:Having said all that, Toro Rosso have the worst line-up so far, Ricciardo has done half a season at the back and Vergne has done what, three Friday mornings and a young driver test? I can see them slipping to the back of the midfield a la Williams 2011 n

Couldn't disagree more. Bold statement warning: Force India and Toro Rosso in 2012 will have drivers who will all win WDC in the future (plus Valterri Bottas at Williams.) There, I said it.

Hulkenberg? Vergne?! You must be joking!! True, Ricciardo has a lot of potential, and Di Resta seriously impressed in his debut season. But the other two? :lol:

No offence...

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 18 Dec 2011, 18:56

I'm finding it harder and harder to support my local team now...I mean Marussia could seriously line up with a decent pairing next year, but nooo they had to turf out D'Ambrosio (who brought sponsorship himself!) for Pic, who will take at least a few races to even get up to speed. Having said that, last year's car was compromised by the factory move, but now it's all under one roof in Banbury, it should mean at least a better car out of the box this time round. They just keep shooting themselves in the foot by employing a brand new, inexperienced rookie every bloody year. Can they not see how Lotus/Caterham have slowly improved over the past two seasons with driver continuity aiding development? I seriously think that continuity is woefully under-rated by much of the current F1 grid.

Post by **Londoner** » 18 Dec 2011, 19:17

AndreaModa wrote:I'm finding it harder and harder to support my local team now...I mean Marussia could seriously line up with a decent pairing next year, but nooo they had to turf out D'Ambrosio (who brought sponsorship himself!) for Pic, who will take at least a few races to even get up to speed. Having said that, last year's car was compromised by the factory move, but now it's all under one roof in Banbury, it should mean at least a better car out of the box this time round. They just keep shooting themselves in the foot by employing a brand new, inexperienced rookie every bloody year. Can they not see how Lotus/Caterham have slowly improved over the past two seasons with driver continuity aiding development? I seriously think that continuity is woefully under-rated by much of the current F1 grid.

I think the days of seeing teams keep the same drivers for several seasons in a row are over, probably as a result of sponsorship. Which leads to a question, what was the longest amount of time a team kept the same two drivers?

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 18 Dec 2011, 19:34

East Londoner wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:I'm finding it harder and harder to support my local team now...I mean Marussia could seriously line up with a decent pairing next year, but nooo they had to turf out D'Ambrosio (who brought sponsorship himself!) for Pic, who will take at least a few races to even get up to speed. Having said that, last year's car was compromised by the factory move, but now it's all under one roof in Banbury, it should mean at least a better car out of the box this time round. They just keep shooting themselves in the foot by employing a brand new, inexperienced rookie every bloody year. Can they not see how Lotus/Caterham have slowly improved over the past two seasons with driver continuity aiding development? I seriously think that continuity is woefully under-rated by much of the current F1 grid.

I think the days of seeing teams keep the same drivers for several seasons in a row are over, probably as a result of sponsorship. Which leads to a question, what was the longest amount of time a team kept the same two drivers?

My first guess would be Schumacher & Barrichello at Ferrari for 6 seasons.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 18 Dec 2011, 20:01

Hakkinen & Coulthard also had a 6-year stint with McLaren ('96-'01)

jakesanson · Post by **jakesanson** » 18 Dec 2011, 22:06

Two seats left then. Williams and HRT. it's like choosing cremation or burial really.

And who'll get the drives? Petrov? Barrichello? Sutil? Algersuari? Buemi? Liuzzi? D'Ambrosio? Senna? Amazing how all of them were on the grid at Interlagos...... Then there's Karthikeyan, Van De Garde, Bianchi, there's even a slim chance for Dean Stoneman may get another chance.

But still no Robert Kubica. He's either one of two things now: a Ferrari driver in 2013 or Alessandro Nannini II.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 18 Dec 2011, 22:11

jakesanson wrote:Two seats left then. Williams and HRT. it's like choosing cremation or burial really.

And who'll get the drives? Petrov? Barrichello? Sutil? Algersuari? Buemi? Liuzzi? D'Ambrosio? Senna? Amazing how all of them were on the grid at Interlagos...... Then there's Karthikeyan, Van De Garde, Bianchi, there's even a slim chance for Dean Stoneman may get another chance.

But still no Robert Kubica. He's either one of two things now: a Ferrari driver in 2013 or Alessandro Nannini II.

Or he could become the next Giancarlo Fisichella and kind of meddle around the paddock for another 10 years.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 18 Dec 2011, 23:13

jakesanson wrote:Two seats left then. Williams and HRT. it's like choosing cremation or burial really.

Hey, don't be so harsh on Williams. I think they'll improve for next year. A lot, in fact. Now let's see who will the second driver be.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Dec 2011, 01:49

jakesanson wrote:Two seats left then. Williams and HRT. it's like choosing cremation or burial really.

According to Jerome d'Ambrosio, there may be as many as four seats available.

jakesanson wrote:there's even a slim chance for Dean Stoneman may get another chance

Stoneman won't race in Formula 1 in 2012. He's promising, but he was forced to sit the 2011 season out with testicular cancer. If no team in their right mind would a driver of Robert Kubica's reputation until they are confident he is fit to race, then they're certainly not going to take Stoneman, even if he is in remission. His results in Formula 2 (which is actually a lower-tier series than Formula 3) might have been good, but he'll need to go through Formula Renault 3.5 or GP2 first. And even teams in those series won't take him until they know he is cancer-free.

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 19 Dec 2011, 01:54

No harm in a friendly prediction round.

Williams - Sign Sutil
HRT - Sign Alguersuari

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Dec 2011, 03:28

Jerome d'Ambrosio reckons there could be as many as four seats still available. Based on a few rumours over the past few weeks, here's an idea of how the silliest season of all could play out if all of them came true:

Red Bull - Vettel, Webber
McLaren - Button, Hamilton
Ferrari - Alonso, Perez
Mercedes - Schumacher, Rosberg
Lotus - Raikkonen, Grosjean
Force India - di Resta, Hulkenberg
Sauber - Maldonado, Bianchi
Toro Rosso - Vergne, Ricciardo
Williams - Kobayashi, Pic
Caterham - Kovalainen, d'Ambrosio
HRT - de la Rosa, van der Garde
Marussia - Petrov, Glock.

1) Massa gets shafted by Ferrari, Ferrari take a gamble on Perez, lining Kubica up for 2013 if Perez disappoints.
2) Bianchi buys Kobayashi out of his seat, Kobayashi gets picked up by Williams.
3) Williams' PDVSA contract is declared illegal, but the Venezuelans decide they want to be in Formula 1 anyway. As Williams dump Maldonado straight away, they go to Sauber.
4) Petrov buys Charles Pic out of his seat.
5) Williams pick up Pic and his money.
6) Trulli's seat is bought out by d'Ambrosio.
7) Giedo van der Garde gets the second HRT drive.

As we finished 2011 with two Brazilians, two Italians and no Frenchmen, but start 2012 with four Frenchmen, no Brazilians and no Italians, Brazil and Italy declare war on France.

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 19 Dec 2011, 03:38

I certainly would like the above to become reality. :lol:

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 19 Dec 2011, 03:52

My grid predictions

Red Bull - Vettel, Webber
McLaren - Button, Hamilton
Ferrari - Alonso, Massa
Mercedes - Schumacher, Rosberg
Lotus - Raikkonen, Grosjean
Force India - di Resta, Hulkenberg
Sauber - Kobayashi, Perez
Toro Rosso - Vergne, Ricciardo
Williams - Sutil, Barrichello
Caterham - Kovalainen, Trulli
HRT - de la Rosa, one of the Toro Rosso drivers
Marussia - Petrov, Glock.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 19 Dec 2011, 05:16

I'ld just like to point out this is probably the first silly season ever where so many seats have been confirmed before the new year. It's certainly the first one I remember with so many full seats so early.

solarcold · Post by **solarcold** » 19 Dec 2011, 06:44

eurobrun wrote:Marussia - Petrov, Glock.

would be silly.

1) sign F1 debutant Pic
2) decide to sign Petrov
3) fire the F1 debutant Pic
4) ??????
5) PROFIT

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Dec 2011, 07:02

The alternative is to let Glock go.

If Marussia wanted Pic out and Petrov in, then they could either a) refund Pic his money and release him from his contract, or b) keep Pic's money (which has probably already been spent) and use Petrov's money (and/or additional sponsors Petrov's signing would bring) to refund him/pay him off. The end result is that Marussia get Petrov and keep the same amount of money as Pic brought to the team.

It might sound silly, but Formula 1 isn't always driven by common sense.

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 19 Dec 2011, 08:11

Petrov > Pic

jakesanson · Post by **jakesanson** » 19 Dec 2011, 08:47

Algersuari to HRT, Sutil or Barrichello (I say he's still good enough) at Williams, and Glock and Petrov at Marussia. Everybody else, dream on til 2013.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Dec 2011, 08:57

According to Peter Windsor, Ferrari are "pushing very hard" to place Jules Bianchi somewhere. Dimitris Papadopoulos seem to think Kobayashi could go to Williams to make way for Bianchi. He also talked about how "some closed cases might reopen", and is now saying that Kobayashi is the "closed case" was was referring to. He also thinks that Ferrari have recruited Gabriele Tredozi from Toro Rosso to aid Robert Kubica during his rumoured Ferrari test. Others (though I don't really know who they are) have noted that Timo Gans - Nico Hulkenberg's PR guy - was following Bianchi around yesterday, suggesting that Bianchi could go to Force India (probably taking over Hulkenberg's Friday duties).

solarcold · Post by **solarcold** » 19 Dec 2011, 11:33

eurobrun wrote:Petrov > Pic

You know where i'm from so I agree with you, but hey, Pic is already signed. That would be a waste to cancel the contract for a debutant that have been signed some days ago. No one would do that.