Beat Tilke at his own game

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 23 Sep 2009, 13:51

thehemogoblin wrote:Bobby Jones was no nobody.

'Spose. But you know what I mean - Jack Nicklaus' courses are nothing to shout about really, whereas the eighty year-old courses are generally superb.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 24 Sep 2009, 18:11

Did this during a free class today - don't be too harsh

Corner names (other than Monza, which was named for an unintentional Parabolica clone) were an attempt at showcasing Irish open-wheel motorsport heritage. Unsurprisingly, I failed.

Jack O Malley · Post by **Jack O Malley** » 24 Sep 2009, 18:48

shinji wrote:Did this during a free class today - don't be too harsh

Corner names (other than Monza, which was named for an unintentional Parabolica clone) were an attempt at showcasing Irish open-wheel motorsport heritage. Unsurprisingly, I failed.

This is very very similar to the Mexico city track!

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 25 Sep 2009, 10:56

There does exist a whole forum on the web dedicated to the same topic of this thread: fantasy race track design.

I don't know if it's OK with the moderators to post the link on here, so I refrain from it, but I would add it if you gave me the thumbs up.

Since, in my early teens, I got interested in F1 to more of an extent than just watching the Monaco GP each year with my family, I started drawing up my own racetracks, so I was quite happy when I found that other forum a few years ago to discuss my designs with other people.

One thing that I think is important for exciting racing and a good season is that there is not just one type of racetrack on which all races are held, but several in about an equal number of each, requiring different setups for the cars, and sometimes radically different ones.

Today in F1, there are mainly high-downforce tracks (Barcelona, Nürburgring GP circuit, new Hockenheim, etc.), with just a few middling downforce ones like Spa and only one fast, low downforce circuit: Monza.

The big problem with Tilke's designs, no matter how they look, is that these tracks require all the same kind of setup: Sakhir, Sepang, Valencia, Hockenheim, Shanghai - they may all have corners that invite drivers to make errors, but they don't require aero settings that are radically different from each other. He may have had the chance to do a low downforce circuit at Fuji, but he passed on that one.

With a calendar consisting of a good mix of different track types, even a reject track like the Alemannenring in Singen, Germany, that was run by the old DTM can be somewhat exciting.

Next, it is important to have good spectating spots around the track. Everybody loves the Indy version of Brands Hatch because you can see so much of the track. But most people don't know that you can see up to 2/3 of Hungaroring when sitting on the grandstand at the beginning of the start finish straight.
It's hard to equip your track with spectator spots like these when you are just being given flat swampland.
But in Bahrain, Tilke didn't have to cope with that at all ...

There are of course other important factors, too, like the blot shape must be aesthetically interesting, the lap time and lap length must meet the demands of cost-efficiency and safety (Pescara, anybody? ;-)

and Bernie's focus in track design today, paddock space and the corporate identity looks of a circuit on TV.

All that needs to be considered before Tilke can start on what he likes: creating attractive buildings in the form of grandstands or paddocks or VIP towers.

And let's not forget about the crates of the water drainage system ;-)

For a good designer of racetracks when it comes to blot shape and track types, look no further than John Hugenholtz, the Dutchman who designed many a great classic including Zandvoort, the Hockenheim with the Motodrom and the straights through the woods (was a track edit of his), and most spectacularly: Suzuka.

But why are we complaining about Tilke? If we were watching NASCAR with all its seemingly similar ovals, would we really worry about this?

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 25 Sep 2009, 11:08

Yannick wrote:even a reject track like the Alemannenring in Singen, Germany, that was run by the old DTM can be somewhat exciting.

Don't forget AVUS Berlin! :lol:

Archie2K · Post by **Archie2K** » 25 Sep 2009, 15:48

Surely proof that there's worse than Tilke was the infield section at Indianapolis. You've got the amazing banked corner and long straight into a chicane, and choose to link it up with a mickey mouse twisting bit of tarmac that appears to have been designed with a set square. The turns 9 and 10 double hairpin is particularly awful.

Anyway I've got it! If Donington isn't ready on time then they should go up the road to north derbyshire and build a street circuit through the Peaks. Specifically;

The altitude change from the bottom left corner (Sparrowpit) and the bottom right (Castleton) is over 200m. Castleton provides an excellent overtaking opportunity and the corner in Winnatts Pass would be a seat in trousers moment with no room for error because there is no run off area because both sides are surrounded by craggy limestone cliffs. And the whole thing takes place in the shadow of Mam Tor, with the picture perfect village of Castleton next door. I'll grant there might be a few minor problems. Part of the route runs on the old A625 which collapsed in 1979 and currently looks like this and this at the Alpine style switchback Barberbooth corner, but hey it's only a bit worse than Canada last year. There would be no run off areas anywhere because of the steepness of the slopes and there's no pit facilities and the surrounding roads are too narrow for trucks and motorhomes, but hey I'm sure these can all be overcome.

watka · Post by **watka** » 25 Sep 2009, 21:05

That's the sort of thing that the TT riders race on at 200 mph, I don't see a problem with F1 coming to Derbyshire.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 25 Sep 2009, 23:38

Yannick wrote:There does exist a whole forum on the web dedicated to the same topic of this thread: fantasy race track design.

I don't know if it's OK with the moderators to post the link on here, so I refrain from it, but I would add it if you gave me the thumbs up.

I don't see why you shouldn't be able to.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 27 Sep 2009, 10:51

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=59 is the adress to the forum about the design of fantasy racetracks.

Hopefully, Jamie and Enoch can find a stretch of land in Vanuatu so the MyTracks forum can create an FIA Grade 1 circuit there.

MinardiFan95 · Post by **MinardiFan95** » 29 Sep 2009, 09:58

Heres my lame attempt (done in MS Paint :mrgreen:

) at a track based at the Sydney Airport, where it would be nearly impossible to hold a grand prix.

It would, however, be easily wide enough to meet FIA standards. Terminals would make for great VIP areas.
EDIT: Changed name of some corners (to OZJET corner and European Aviation Corner)

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 29 Sep 2009, 10:51

I can only see one problem with that Minardi Fan... Sydney Airport is the busiest airport in Australia

Other than that it looks like a good track. Half the field taken out in a massive first corner crash simply because the track would be wide enough to do 5,6 or even 7 wide.

SuperAguri · Post by **SuperAguri** » 29 Sep 2009, 20:34

As no one asked for it, here it is the proposed track layout for the Vanuatu GP. Based in Luganville, the second biggest town in Vanatu it features everything a street circuit should have. That's right, lots of 90 degree turns...

Yellow is the track, Red is the pitlane, red dot is the start finish line and purple are grandstands.

The track is about 4.5km long and would require dirtroads to be upgraded to F1 standards and a bridge to be built, it would also run through residential streets, but let's not worry about it. Only 10000 people live there, I am sure they would love F1 cars blasting past there homes.

The race is on, quick blast down the pitstraight into the first 90 degree righthanded the Detriot curve, lots of accidents happening here then a blast over the new Briatore bridge then to the Phoenix curve before the monaco curve with the road bending to the right before you hit the Pacific chicane before blasting down the residential straight then into the Modena curve before getting to the Martini curve as the road gentlely bends right into the Tarquini curve before getting to the Forti chicane blasting down the main road as it curves right before the Stoddart corner and over the Moda bridge to Alberto corner blasting towards the Piqeut bend towards the Lammers corner towards Campos corner blasting down the last straigh to the final easy Danner corner before hitting the start finish straight.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 29 Sep 2009, 20:58

You do realise, there could be a massive shunt at the final corner, because pit entry would be on the racing line?

Tealy · Post by **Tealy** » 29 Sep 2009, 21:19

NO! PLEASE! Don't make the Vanuatu GP a street circuit. We have enough of those clogging up the calendar as it is. Unless this replaces Valencia then I don't like it.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 05 Oct 2009, 17:35

kostas22 wrote:My vision of a Grand Prix track near Glasgow, so Scotland will finally have a proper racetrack! (Knockhill is a bit sh*t to be honest)

Turn 1 hairpin, Switchback, provides first overtaking spot of the lap. A good exit out of Leslie is essential, to have more speed going through Curva Ecosse and down to the heavy braking zone of Stewart 1, another place to overtake. Then a sweeping downhill righthander at Stewart 2, under the bridge leading into the Epic banked oval of Daytona 1, 2 and 3 where (hopefully) many slipstreaming battles will occur! Then hard on the brakes again for another overtaking zone, at Clark Chicane.
Then a flat out left hander, down to Forest's Edge, and going uphill through the mega Redwater turn (have a guess why its called that, and its not because of the water next to it ) and left at Bridge, down towards Cleland and the final turn, McRae.

FYI, the Grandstand at Redwater is transparent, because its built like the ones at Yas Marina...above the run-off! (Or in this case...gravel trap).

Much better than any Tilkedrome!

I got bored, so I took it to the next level. You can now drive the track on your PC!
If you have either Trackmania Nations Forever or Trackmania United, you can download the track and play it using this link:
http://tmnforever.tm-exchange.com/main.aspx?action=trackshow&id=1847011#auto

If you don't have the game yet but want to drive the track, you can download TMNF for free at http://www.focus-files.com/game/.

The model isn't great, I only spent ~20 mins making it, and the in-game editor is basic so I'm limited to set pieces, which means Redwater aka Eau Rouge is nothing like it should be, as well as some other inconsistencies with the design.

Hope you like

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 05 Oct 2009, 19:15

kostas22 wrote:*snip*

I tried installing Trackmania on my PC, and it spent two minutes doing nothing...

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 05 Oct 2009, 21:40

This sort of defeats the purpose of this thread since this track design obviously doesn't comply with the FIA safety standards at all, but I wanted to show you my attempt at designing a track around Vanuatu's largest (active!) vulcano. Unfortunately, the view on Google Earth was a bit blurred by those damn clouds.

By the way, this was part of a fantasy that got somewhat out of hand about an 'alternative' F1 calendar with 10 races in the Grand Canyon, around the Mont Blanc, in Mongolia, Antarctica, DR Congo, Patagonia, under the waters of the Atlantic Ocean, on the Moon, and of course around the mountain on the island of Tanna in Vanuatu. I haven't designed all of the tracks yet, just the ones in Mongolia (Choir) and DR Congo (in the woods somewhere near Kisangani, sort of a semi-rally track) in addition to this one. I'm also sort of contemplating using it for a fantasy season in which, among other things, the Brawns fail miserably at the Grand Prix of the Antarctic because they have trouble getting enough temperature into their tyres.

watka · Post by **watka** » 28 Nov 2009, 00:22

Managed to did this bad boy up; the original proposal for the Suzuka circuit. I'd like to see Tilke try to put that together.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 28 Nov 2009, 10:42

watka wrote:Managed to did this bad boy up; the original proposal for the Suzuka circuit. I'd like to see Tilke try to put that together.

Awesome!

Tealy · Post by **Tealy** » 28 Nov 2009, 11:33

watka wrote:Managed to did this bad boy up; the original proposal for the Suzuka circuit. I'd like to see Tilke try to put that together.

That's quite a find!

Although I must say I think the track is better as it is. The amount of slow speed corners in the original design makes it a bit too much like other tracks for me so I'm glad they changed it.

Marco · Post by **Marco** » 28 Nov 2009, 17:00

Hi (first post here)

I actually built several racing circuits... virtual racing circuits at least, e.g. for the Nascar 2003 racing simulation - no ovals but real (TM) circuits for the TransAm and GroupC Mods.

Here is one of them - however I might add, that I built this intentionally more like an old track, that means for modern use the run off areas would have to be enlarged, but that should be possible

Turn 1 is a bit like Interlagos, it goes steep downhill there into turn 2, but there it goes uphill again until the exit where it has about the level of s/f again for a few metres. T3 is a tricky one - it goes downhill right in the middle of the corner so it's difficult to see the apex. There is a curb on the inside that you can cut a little, but if you do too much, you'll end on the curb or in the dirt on the outside - if the car in front does a little mistake the following car can make an attack on the straight. It goes downhill a bit until it levels before turn 4 (the area on the left is a sea). Turn 5 goes slightly uphill, also the following short straight into T6 until the dark area (that is a shadow map, there is a forest so it's dark on the track), the second part of turn 6 goes downhill again. What makes T6 the most evil corner is, that the radius of the corner changes several times :twisted:

as well as the camber? banking?. So you might not call it T6 but T6,7,8,9,10... It goes a bit uphill to T7 and downhill right after the apex, under a bridge to the infield. I also planned to make a short version with a shortcut between T5 and 7 but I didn't finish it so don't judge me on that chicane there

. It goes slighty uphill to T8 again, a possible overtaking point if the driver in front mismanaged T6 and therefore the entry to T7. Then it goes downhill a bit, and up again for s/f with the pit entry on the left. The slow T8 followed by a long straight gives another overtaking point.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 28 Nov 2009, 18:52

Wow, Turn 6 is killer. I'm pretty sure that the guys over there at the My Tracks board would enjoy your graphics.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 28 Nov 2009, 19:29

That looks like a carbon copy of Apricot Hill in Gran Turismo minus one of the hairpins in the outfield section before the very long right hander and without the double chicane before the final double apex hairpin. I'm not complaining, just stating an opinion.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 28 Nov 2009, 20:33

kostas22 wrote:That looks like a carbon copy of Apricot Hill in Gran Turismo minus one of the hairpins in the outfield section before the very long right hander and without the double chicane before the final double apex hairpin. I'm not complaining, just stating an opinion.

That's odd - it looks nothing like Apricot Hill to me. Unless they changed it for the PSP or whatever...

Either way, that looks like an excellent track, Marco. Care to provide a download link?

watka · Post by **watka** » 28 Nov 2009, 20:54

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
kostas22 wrote:That looks like a carbon copy of Apricot Hill in Gran Turismo minus one of the hairpins in the outfield section before the very long right hander and without the double chicane before the final double apex hairpin. I'm not complaining, just stating an opinion.

That's odd - it looks nothing like Apricot Hill to me. Unless they changed it for the PSP or whatever...

Either way, that looks like an excellent track, Marco. Care to provide a download link?

Would that be convertable for F1 Challenge?

Marco · Post by **Marco** » 28 Nov 2009, 21:57

thanks

That looks like a carbon copy of Apricot Hill in Gran Turismo

No idea, honestly, I never owned a console.

Care to provide a download link?

The track is not completely finished - it lacks AI and the scenery around it is not complete (the interest in road racing with N03 died before I was able to finish it), so I don't want to post it openly, but you can drive it in a training session, so those who are interested, send me a message.

I made another track in two versions, raceworthy with AI, I will post a pic later (but that would not be F1 worthy, because almost no runoff areas at all :twisted:

)

Would that be convertable for F1 Challenge?

I don't know. Someone of my virtual racing colleagues wanted to convert it to rFactor and Race, but I haven't seen a result, yet.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 28 Nov 2009, 22:06

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 28 Nov 2009, 22:49

The second San Francisco one is epic.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 28 Nov 2009, 23:17

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344333
Probably way too many fiddly bits though

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 29 Nov 2009, 00:24

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344422

this is a cycle training circuit used by my local cycling club

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 29 Nov 2009, 00:34

Some more. Again, the basic shape is what we're thinking moreso than the length.

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344408

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344413

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344421

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344430

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344426 (Dear Hermann Tilke, please make this one happen!)

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 29 Nov 2009, 00:36

One I designed a few months ago: Palmerton Circuit - Palmerton, Pennsylvania, USA.
Length: 7.390 km (4.926 mi)
Elevation change: ~74 m (~243 ft)
Curves: 44, depending what you consider a turn or kink.

Main Pros: Not a Tilkedrome. Trackside hotels and eateries.
Main Cons: Pit entry at turn 1 with pit exit at turn 6 (I had nowhere else to place it). Slow, bumpy, narrow, high road crown, and sharp gradient changes. Isolates a town of 5000 people. Three artificial chicanes added due to lack of runoff elsewhere (first at 1.5 km, second after 3 km, third before the finish line). More than a dozen right angle turns.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 29 Nov 2009, 01:00

Well, here's something I've done quite some time ago in GeneRally:
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9641/shot0001f.png

Basically it has a heckload of bridges and 90 degree turns.

Valrys · Post by **Valrys** » 29 Nov 2009, 01:14

Two street circuits round Coventry I've quickly bodged up, due to Coventry actually having some sections that would make wicked corners.

Kart and Bike Circuit (some segments are too tight/twisty/have obstacles that would prevent larger single seaters racing on it)
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344379
Google maps doesn't show it very well, but the road that leads up past the transport museum is pretty much a flat out right hander after that little kink, and would be amazing fun in a gearbox kart. The at the end of that part you turn right and go up an incline that then takes you past all the shops, and some nice landmarks. Also, the segment outside the city centre is pretty much a high-speed flat out blast, and is massively wide, so you'd have some wicked slipstreaming going on in karts. That layout also has some on/off ramp sections which would be really fun.

Car Circuit
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344474

Over 11 miles. The Uk's answer to both Monaco and the Nurburgring. Or so I'd like to think :lol:

And then something else I just randomly did
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344479

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 29 Nov 2009, 06:23

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344733 Something closer to my area. There are a total of 7 (Yes 7) roundabouts on the course while the run down Mulgoa road would be the perfect place to slipstream someone and pass them going into the roundabout between Mulgoa Rd and Jamison Rd. Also if you get a good run out of the roundabout between Jamison Rd and Woodriff St you can try passing someone going into the first roundabout chicane on Woodriff St.

Overall the first sector (From the start to the 2km marker) is weaving in and out of the streets around the Penrith CBD before you open the taps on Mulgoa, Jamison and Woodriff. The 3rd sector (From the 5km marker to the finish) is a return to the CBD and the twisty bits

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 29 Nov 2009, 10:08

Captain Hammer wrote:These are a few that I've invented with the Google Maps pedometer. They might appear to be to long, but the basic shape is what we're after here, not the distance.

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344138

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344143

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344147

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344154

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344168

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344174

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344178

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344185

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344191

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344202

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344211

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344233

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344241

The first Praha one looks good, but I'd remove this needle between the 1km and 2km marks that sticks into the park. That one just ruins the flow of the section. Continuing on the straight would be a lot better - for overtaking even.

The first (7 kilometer) San Francisco track has got a great shape, too, but there is likely to be a major runoff problem on the outside of South Lake Corner because the two racing directions are too close to each other. I have no idea how they got around that exact same problem at Zandvoort, but they did. The fast curvy run through the park would be incredible at racing speed.

That Philadelphia Crossover looks interesting. You don't see Figure-of-8-shaped street tracks that often. That's definitely an innovation.

The Central Park and Broadway track might actually turn out to be feasible if you shorten it at West 72nd street and remove the run back towards the roundabout. Still, it would block a lot of access roads to an area with tightly packed population and extreme high-rise density, so the access roads are far more in need here than in most other areas where you could build a street track. But as a fantasy, it's quite nice.

The 11 km Sao Paulo street track, despite being much too long and hence too fast, should be run in clockwise direction instead of anticlockwise. There are not only more escape roads available in that direction, but also better overtaking opportunities.

The 13 kilometers through the heart of Moscow is just an insanely wild ride. It's most certainly what I'd call a weird conceptual track and it makes me wonder what a modern day "Pescara Grand Prix" would look like.

A new Helsinki street track should be based on the Helsinki Thunder track that was run 3 times in the mid-90s for the sake of history and continuity. The paddock area of that one might be a bit too small for the current era, but not all of the teams must bring their energy stations now that the manufacturers have left the building.

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 29 Nov 2009, 11:03

Using gmap, it is difficult to produce a sufficient street circuit while considering run-off areas, paddocks, road access, and reasonable circuit lengths and widths. Tilke has it easy since he's given an unlimited budget and huge tracts of land. Though Shanghai was built on a swamp.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 29 Nov 2009, 11:21

RejectSteve wrote:Using gmap, it is difficult to produce a sufficient street circuit while considering run-off areas, paddocks, road access, and reasonable circuit lengths and widths.

That's why I use the pedometer to create a basic shape, even if the circuit is too long. The Moscow circuit I made is a whopping 13km - twice as lon as is allowed - but the basic shape is what I have in mind.

bigslydoc · Post by **bigslydoc** » 29 Nov 2009, 12:11

I'm not sure if Captain Hammer realises, but his track for London is actually one very similar what as proposed in the early 00's as a London Grand Prix by the then Mayor of London "Red Ken" Linvingstone in Autosport magazine. Here it is in all its glory...

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344904

The start finish straight and pit complex would be on Whitehall.

My own take on a circuit here in the fair city of Sydney. You want a mix of a circuit, so fast and slow sections, a true street circuit, i.e. narrow sections, walls, bumpy surface, borderline acceptable amount of runoff and a number of 90-degree corners. Lets be honest, in modern F1 if you want overtaking long straights and 90-degree corners is probably the best way to achieve that. Anyway here goes...

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344925

Mainly fast, lots of elevation change. The start finish straight and pits would be on Elizabeth St which is between 6-8 lanes wide. and has a massive park behind it for the paddock.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 29 Nov 2009, 12:27

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3344935 - More a sight-seeing tour than an F1 track unfortunately... The Spire would be an epic obstacle though.