Felipe baby will he last the season & who could replace him?

[S951]

Best have a dedicated thread for this but here are some things I have read so far accross various f1 forums be free to add your thoughts and opinions.

* massa has 10 gauranteed races before he can be given the boot
* perez is most likely logical replacement (young ferrari driver program??)
* other possible replacements that have been mentioned are Trulli, Fisichella & Heidfeld (don't through the papays at me just what I've read)

Now in terms of possible replacements what others have you heard being mentioned? also if this does happen who will replace perez at sauber if he goes bearing in mind they have telemex money could they use gutti or would they take a chance on koba?

[tristan1117]

1. He will not last the season at this rate.
2. Badoer.

[DanielPT]

Felipe, baby, your career is slipping away faster than you wish...

[Sunshine_Baby_[IT]]

1. He will not last the season at this rate.
2. Badoer.

Do you really think that Badoer (who ended both his races in last position in 2009) could really do better?

[jackanderton]

Unless Perez is outstanding in the following races and Massa continues to flounder to the point of embarrassment, the move to replace Felipe won't take place until the end of this season of F1.

I think the Badoer/Fisichella incident has probably chastened Ferrari and they'd be unlikely to repeat a switch that gained them nothing, especially in the knowledge they could have Perez in 2013 for definite.

Of course Massa being hospitalised has been identified as the turning point in his career, but there's also the team orders when Massa was heading for a deserved German GP victory. His entire demeanour since then has been one of a resigned number two, and that has also been reflected in his and his own teams performance. It was far too early in the season to be yielding to Alonso and that win would've put him right back in the mix. Alonso was on 98 points coming into Germany, Massa on 67. If the Germany results had gone according to race speed and nothing else, the points situation would've been Alonso on 116, Massa 92, less than a race win between them.

I still think although he used to be likeable that Massa has a very childlike mentality and is a mediocre racer, though a very proficient front runner.

Getting sacked by Ferrari could be either the beginning of the end or a chance to revitalise himself somewhere else (Lotus, Force India, back to Sauber maybe?) and get back to a happy place where he is respected and trusted.

[seleucid23]

If Perez moves to Ferrari mid-season, the only person it would benefit is whoever took over at Sauber (Gutierrez?).

The Ferrari is a dog of a car, been made to look better than it is by Alonso. If Perez moves, it's likely that he'll have the same problems Massa has had - but without even the time in the car that Massa had pre-season.

[Sunshine_Baby_[IT]]

* other possible replacements that have been mentioned are Trulli, Fisichella & Heidfeld

What would you think about HWNSNBM? He could come back.

[DOSBoot]

I think if Massa continues the way he is now, then Ferrari are going to pull an Ivan Capelli on him, and use Giancarlo Fisichella for the end of the year. Perez will probably get a full time drive in 2013.


I hate to get off topic, but seleucid23, I'm an MST3K fan as well.

[Collieafc]

The way Ferrari is, would Perez have anything to gain by moving there in the short term? Assuming Alonso is carrying the car and Massa is a more accurate gauge, Perez may see it as a risky move - if he flops in a Ferrari the worst case is it could even kill his career before it takes off. At least if he stays at Sauber he can point to the car/team if things go wrong mid season (e.g if they stop development early) and there is less pressure overall to get results. His results will be seen in context

Thats even before we consider the idea of if Perez would be happy to be number 2 to Alonso...

[tkcom]

If Perez moves to Ferrari mid-season, the only person it would benefit is whoever took over at Sauber (Gutierrez?)

It has to be Gutierrez or else Sauber will likely lose funding from Carlos Slim.

[DanielPT]

If Perez moves to Ferrari mid-season, the only person it would benefit is whoever took over at Sauber (Gutierrez?)

It has to be Gutierrez or else Sauber will likely lose funding from Carlos Slim.

That could be ruinous. Although Peter Sauber was optimistic that this result could help him find new sponsors. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98429

[Minardi Man]

I think Perez will move to Ferrari at the end of the year most likely, and Gutierrez will replace him at Sauber

[Aerospeed]

Seeing that the Ferrari is trash this year (seeing how Perez was catching Alonso at the end of the race), I actually don't want Perez at Ferrari. He might be able to take Sauber places. The Sauber looks like a fantastic car.

[Ataxia]

I'd stay if I was Perez, just until the season's end. Replacing Massa at Ferrari, despite him having been quite poor, would not be ideal. Mainly because the car looks a handful and nobody would have the mileage to cope.

[WeirdKerr]

Ferrari need a good solid but boring driver in the car.... Stick quick nick in the car, he will do the trick.......

[AdrianSutil]

I think Massa will last the year, then Perez to Ferrari for 2013. Replacing Perez at Sauber? Either a straight swap for Massa or maybe Bianchi gets a go. He has Ferrari connections and wouldn't surprise me to see it happen, what with Sauber using their engines.

[mario]

Seeing that the Ferrari is trash this year (seeing how Perez was catching Alonso at the end of the race), I actually don't want Perez at Ferrari. He might be able to take Sauber places. The Sauber looks like a fantastic car.

Exactly - rushing Perez into Ferrari right now would probably do more harm than good for all parties, since Perez would be under considerable pressure from the media and trying to adapt to an ill handling car at very short notice. It would also cause considerable disruption within Ferrari too, given that Massa is a known quantity and already has a strong working relationship with the team. Leaving him at Sauber would give Perez time to develop in an environment where he would be under less pressure to perform, plus signing Perez at the end of the year would at least give him a chance to test the car in pre-season testing in 2013.

And yes, although Sauber may not have the resources of some teams, the C31 does look like a fairly strong package - in pre-season testing Newey was paying a lot of attention to the way Sauber had packaged their exhausts. Now, although Red Bull probably aren't expecting to come under pressure directly from Sauber, the fact that he was so interested in their car suggests the C31's design has some potential.

[Sunshine_Baby_[IT]]

The way Ferrari is, would Perez have anything to gain by moving there in the short term? Assuming Alonso is carrying the car and Massa is a more accurate gauge, Perez may see it as a risky move - if he flops in a Ferrari the worst case is it could even kill his career before it takes off. At least if he stays at Sauber he can point to the car/team if things go wrong mid season (e.g if they stop development early) and there is less pressure overall to get results. His results will be seen in context

Thats even before we consider the idea of if Perez would be happy to be number 2 to Alonso...

I don't think that Perez would go to Ferrari, at least before the end of the season. I don't think he has really something to gain. He's a promising driver and I don't really think that he will have the only chance to go to Ferrari and stay behind Alonso.

[Popi_Larrauri]

I would like to start the ""If I would have been hit by a suspension sping in my head, breaking my helmet, leaving me in comma at 250 km/h, I would have never drove a tricycle uphill again" appretiation thread".

Look, I've been seriously thinking about what we've been posting here about Massa lately (in particular, what "I" wrote). The fact is some drivers came back after huge shunts very well, but others have done quite poorly. Maybe, most probably, is out to themselves. I mean, your brain gets an awful shake; your synapsis or your piscological traumas afects your reactions on a tenth of a second: meaning a 1.5 second per lap, when not more. (Try falling of a horse at a decent speed, for example).

At some stage the speed was (or at least some of it) still there. If there ever was an unfair way to treat a driver was the way Ferrari did on him at Hockenheim. He needed that win. He needed more than anyone needed on earth, and he was miserably betrayed in what it could be the most pivotal moment in F1 respecting drivers in recent years.

That meant the end. He is still racing; sure, there's money involved. Lots of it. But the edge, the final concentration you only find on a man at these speeds with a serious commintment, the determination, is already gone and no one seems to care.

Or course, writting chasis on the walls is common these days, drivers living traumatic situations is also a regular thing. Drivers being disposed unfairly? don't get me started. But the combination of all of them, even if not unique, really upsets me.

I'll switch sides: I'll support Massa the same way I support Hispania. I wan't him winning a race, ignoring team orders, and them climbing out of the car, going straight to Montezemolo and saying him: "I'm done. You can put your radio transmission up yours. By the way, you can continue waiting for Kubica. I'd like to see him letting Alonso go in 2015".


Again on topic: Perez should remain at Sauber no matter the cost; that Ferrari should be left aside in the paddock as spare if Massa is dumped, Myself driving it for Alonso's payroll could mean serious harm to my career as an F1 driver. Gutierrez is fixed at Sauber in the event Perez wants to do a Cappelli-Grosjean(2009) perfect mix in that red lemon in one of the most destructives moves in term of competitiveness and brand value.

[IceG]

The only reason to replace Massa is to get some-one who can guarantee to drive well enough to finish in the place behind Alonso and no better. Perez has proven he can do that, Massa has proven he can't. So if not Perez then who?

I posted in another thread that Perez might not be making the best choice to jump into this year's Ferrari. But then again, if he is guaranteed a Ferrari seat for next year, who's to say that Alonso won't have thrown his toys out of the pram and gone off to play at Red Bull?

So the 2013 line-up is:
Red Bull: Vettel and Alonso
McLaren: Button and Webber
Ferrari: Perez and Kubica
Mercedes: Hamilton and etc.

I will so regret posting this by the end of the year.

[Ed24]

I would like to start the ""If I would have been hit by a suspension sping in my head, breaking my helmet, leaving me in comma at 250 km/h, I would have never drove a tricycle uphill again" appretiation thread".

Look, I've been seriously thinking about what we've been posting here about Massa lately (in particular, what "I" wrote). The fact is some drivers came back after huge shunts very well, but others have done quite poorly. Maybe, most probably, is out to themselves. I mean, your brain gets an awful shake; your synapsis or your piscological traumas afects your reactions on a tenth of a second: meaning a 1.5 second per lap, when not more. (Try falling of a horse at a decent speed, for example).

At some stage the speed was (or at least some of it) still there. If there ever was an unfair way to treat a driver was the way Ferrari did on him at Hockenheim. He needed that win. He needed more than anyone needed on earth, and he was miserably betrayed in what it could be the most pivotal moment in F1 respecting drivers in recent years.

Yes, well said. The point about Germany is particularly important. Ferrari went for the short term gain without considering the long term. The fact that it was on the one year anniversary of the accident as well made it even more cruel. It robbed F1 of an amazing good news story.

I would also like to point out that Massa, is the only driver in the major 3 teams that has a child, and that must have some sort of subconscious impact as well, particularly considering how close he was to dying before the child's birth in 2009.

The only reason to replace Massa is to get some-one who can guarantee to drive well enough to finish in the place behind Alonso and no better. Perez has proven he can do that, Massa has proven he can't. So if not Perez then who?

I posted in another thread that Perez might not be making the best choice to jump into this year's Ferrari. But then again, if he is guaranteed a Ferrari seat for next year, who's to say that Alonso won't have thrown his toys out of the pram and gone off to play at Red Bull?

So the 2013 line-up is:
Red Bull: Vettel and Alonso
McLaren: Button and Webber
Ferrari: Perez and Kubica
Mercedes: Hamilton and etc.

I will so regret posting this by the end of the year.

I can't see Alonso leaving. Even if Red Bull is faster, I think he enjoys the egotistical boost of being the number 1 in the team and looking like a hero.

Also, we can't prove how Perez will do against Alonso just because of his drives in a Sauber. Finally, I'll eat my (Ferrari) hat if Kubica has his next F1 race at that team. In my opinion there's no chance he will start there without a year at Sauber or somewhere else first.

[DOSBoot]

I have a feeling that if he does join Ferrari right now, he might follow the same path as Jean Alesi did. Start out with a midfield team, score some good results, then go to a Ferrari that was not up to par with the frontrunners, and spend most of you're glory years without the results many expected you to be. Which is why I think it is wise for Perez to stick at Sauber at the moment. Plus, it would be nice to see the team win another race if that can happen.

[David AGS]

Okay, Felipe IMO will do the season, then Perez takes over.

Guttierez, while is quick gets another season as reserve. Adrian Sutil joins Sauber. Sutil is the perfect driver for the job, youngish, not a superstar, but no slow coach, ideal for a middle team, and brings backing.

[Klon]

Guttierez, while is quick gets another season as reserve. Adrian Sutil joins Sauber. Sutil is the perfect driver for the job, youngish, not a superstar, but no slow coach, ideal for a middle team, and brings backing.

And has a suspended jail sentence with him, giving him problems with entering some countries and detracts possible sponsors...

[Ferrim]

Nah. Gutiérrez will be promoted when Pérez leaves. Which should be good news for Our Lord Kobayashi.

[DanielPT]

Nah. Gutiérrez will be promoted when Pérez leaves. Which should be good news for Our Lord Kobayashi.

Although Our Lord Kobayashi is definitely slower than Perez (heresy, I know), I still think he still is the better racer (Kobayashi would have barged his way through Alonso instead of making a mistake). Actually, I think Kobayashi is the best racer in F1 at the moment, even better than Hamilton is if we don't count raw speed.

[AdrianSutil]

Nah. Gutiérrez will be promoted when Pérez leaves. Which should be good news for Our Lord Kobayashi.

Although Our Lord Kobayashi is definitely slower than Perez (heresy, I know), I still think he still is the better racer (Kobayashi would have barged his way through Alonso instead of making a mistake). Actually, I think Kobayashi is the best racer in F1 at the moment, even better than Hamilton is if we don't count raw speed.

Kobayashi is one of the best 'opportunistic passers' of the modern era. He can find gaps where a lot of others can't.

[DanielPT]

Nah. Gutiérrez will be promoted when Pérez leaves. Which should be good news for Our Lord Kobayashi.

Although Our Lord Kobayashi is definitely slower than Perez (heresy, I know), I still think he still is the better racer (Kobayashi would have barged his way through Alonso instead of making a mistake). Actually, I think Kobayashi is the best racer in F1 at the moment, even better than Hamilton is if we don't count raw speed.

Kobayashi is one of the best 'opportunistic passers' of the modern era. He can find gaps where a lot of others can't.

And while going for the gaps might scratch the paint job, at least he doesn't crash into others.

[mario]

Guttierez, while is quick gets another season as reserve. Adrian Sutil joins Sauber. Sutil is the perfect driver for the job, youngish, not a superstar, but no slow coach, ideal for a middle team, and brings backing.

And has a suspended jail sentence with him, giving him problems with entering some countries and detracts possible sponsors...

Exactly - I believe that Sutil would have difficulty entering the US, for example, since their border controls agency have been instructed to turn away individuals with unspent convictions. Also, does Sutil still have the backing of Medion? I know that they did back Sutil whilst he raced for Force India, but they might well have quietly dropped him since then.

The only reason to replace Massa is to get some-one who can guarantee to drive well enough to finish in the place behind Alonso and no better. Perez has proven he can do that, Massa has proven he can't. So if not Perez then who?

I posted in another thread that Perez might not be making the best choice to jump into this year's Ferrari. But then again, if he is guaranteed a Ferrari seat for next year, who's to say that Alonso won't have thrown his toys out of the pram and gone off to play at Red Bull?

So the 2013 line-up is:
Red Bull: Vettel and Alonso
McLaren: Button and Webber
Ferrari: Perez and Kubica
Mercedes: Hamilton and etc.

I will so regret posting this by the end of the year.

It is reasonable to assume that, if Ferrari did decide to replace Massa mid season (I reckon it is more likely that they will simply let his contract expire at the end of the year), they would want a reliable, experienced driver to take his position. The problem is, most of the drivers within the sport that would fit that bill might not want to drive against Alonso, whilst the drivers that ended up without a seat last year are already involved in other positions (Buemi as Red Bull's test driver, Rubens in IndyCars, Heidfeld and Chandhok are racing LMP's and Alguersuari is thought to be close to signing on for Pirelli as their test driver (not a bad move, given that all of Pirelli's former test drivers have found a seat shortly afterwards)).
Trulli would probably be one of the few experienced drivers available for the team at short notice and recent experience of F1 (he did, after all, have one test session with Caterham on 2012 specification tyres) - but would Ferrari realistically consider Trulli to be a good replacement for Massa? I doubt it...

As for your possible 2013 line up, there are a couple of problems I can see with it. Firstly, would Marko or Mateschitz be prepared to take Alonso onboard? I am not sure such a deal would be feasible, and I imagine that Vettel might not be entirely keen on seeing his fairly secure No. 1 position at Red Bull jeopardised by the arrival of a much more competitive team mate. As for Hamilton moving to Mercedes, why would he want to do that? Given the recent form of Mercedes, that would almost certainly be a backwards step, and Nico Rosberg's presence would be a problem (mainly due to Keke Rosberg, who reportedly doesn't want Hamilton in the same team as Nico because Hamilton nearly beat Nico in F3, despite having less experience).
Added to that, there is one other aspect - you've also assumed that Kubica would be fit enough to drive for Ferrari in 2013, something that, although many might hope for it to happen, is by no means assured (his recovery seems to be going well, but even if he is lucky enough to make a full recovery, it'll take him many more months to be back to full fitness).

[fjackdaw]

I hate to get off topic, but seleucid23, I'm an MST3K fan as well.

"Don't be disappointed if he doesn't come."
"Mother, that's personal!"

[seleucid23]

I hate to get off topic, but seleucid23, I'm an MST3K fan as well.

"Don't be disappointed if he doesn't come."
"Mother, that's personal!"

You people bring matches for Mikey?

[DemocalypseNow]

I remember in 2009 André Lotterer was linked to replace Massa after Hungary, and really, I think they should have sacked Massa at the end of the last season and brought in Lotterer back then - the reigning Formula Nippon and Le Mans 24 Hours champion, former Jaguar test driver...but I suppose at this point, the problems are A) Lotterer is contracted to Audi Sport for the whole year and B) Lack of preperation may cause him to be slightly rubbish in a car that already sucks.

[DanielPT]

I remember in 2009 André Lotterer was linked to replace Massa after Hungary, and really, I think they should have sacked Massa at the end of the last season and brought in Lotterer back then - the reigning Formula Nippon and Le Mans 24 Hours champion, former Jaguar test driver...but I suppose at this point, the problems are A) Lotterer is contracted to Audi Sport for the whole year and B) Lack of preperation may cause him to be slightly rubbish in a car that already sucks.

Lotterer was a very successful driver at lower formula at the time when he tested for Jaguar. What happened, lacked money?

[Shizuka]

Something related to prostitutes dropped him out of the testing position, IIRC.

[DemocalypseNow]

Something related to prostitutes dropped him out of the testing position, IIRC.

No, that was a different Jaguar test driver, Tomas Scheckter. He was nicked kerb-crawling in Milton Keynes, the daft bastard.

No, I think Lotterer was just unlucky to never get a big break to launch his career, and he basically became a Toyota works driver in Japan after that. So perhaps there was a lack of money, because his only two consistent employers have been the Toyota Group (they run as Lexus in Super GT) in Super GT and Formula Nippon, and Audi in Le Mans 24H/WSC.