2012 Spanish Grand Prix Discussion Thread

[DemocalypseNow]

It is good that this forum dosen't really have serious flamewars.

Except Captain Hammer vs Peter/Myself

[RonDenisDeletraz]

It is good that this forum dosen't really have serious flamewars.

Except Captain Hammer vs Peter/Myself

Captain Hammer has not been posting that much recently, so therefore he hasn't had a chance to rage about the ROTR threads.

[Pamphlet]

OK, stop it. It's enough. May I remind you two this thread is about the 2012 Spanish GP? This is not the Autosport forum, we're FORMULA ONE REJECTS and we just don't roll like that.

So, back to business as usual.

Hence why I stopped the argument.

Regardless, Whitmarsh has stated that they'll be bringing their new nose to Spain, and that the ducknoseyness of the...well, nose, is merely a minor part of the upgrade. Thoughts?

[Phoenix]

Cant two people argue energetically without it being labelled as flaming or trolling? I was enjoying that! I allways need a good reminder that people with different views are there to give me perspective and insight. I usually just assume they are wrong...

That was a spirited exchange and not trolling at all. Ok, it did stray off topic but only slightly. And since we are discussing the Spanish GP we could use a bit of excitement. My two cets...

I'm sorry, but I didn't want things to get too out of hand. I have to say kostas22 began the discussion in a pretty vitriolic manner, but there were no personal attacks afterwards, which is to the credit of both of you.

However, I thought the discussion was derailing a thread that I think doesn't need off-topicness too much. That's my two personal cents. Of course, plurality is allowed and encouraged, so long as it doesn't derive in flame wars.

[DemocalypseNow]

F1 Rejects has off-topic police now. They weren't kidding when they said 2012 would be the end of the world.

It will be interesting to see how Lotus do given their fraudulent business practices elsewhere. It would be a shame for all the hard work at Enstone to be wasted on a team that gets dragged under by stupid management.

[Klon]

F1 Rejects has off-topic police now. They weren't kidding when they said 2012 would be the end of the world.

Technically it's only the anti-furore police. If this topic were to dissolve in a discussion on how funny it would be to paint Andrea Moda's sponsors on a black horse, nobody would mind.

[Peter]

Indeed.

SHUT THE F*** UP YOU OLD WINDBAG, NOBODY GIVES A SH*T ABOUT YOUR WORTHLESS OPINIONS ANYMORE!

Sorry, but someone had to say it. Schumacher needs to STFU and stop whining. What kind of world champion complains the tyres are too difficult to drive while everyone else is content? To me, this just proves every title he won is worthless, he either cheated or had it handed to him. GO HOME MICHAEL SCHUMACHER.

I think he's just upset that Rosberg won and he didn't, and the only thing he can come up with is, "Bluh bluh, the tyres are rubbish."

Or that the racing just isn't fun anymore if you can't push. One of the thrills of Formula 1, at least to me, is to see those drivers pilot those high performance vehicles as fast as possible, head to head against each other, and i'm sure the drivers would like that as well, to be able to actually race than to conserve. And it's evidently hurting michael's rformance a bit, so I can see why he's complainng.

For example, GT5 players would know of the incredible amounts of tyre wear that the game has at the moment. Prior to that, online racing was brilliant, with drivers able to push the cars without worrying too much about tyre wear, and I myself was finaly getting performance out of my car in my league to make a championship comeback, comnig off of my first win of the season, and a pole position at Monaco(DNF though ). Then ,bam, tyre wear happened. Qualifying became a out lap-qualifying lap-in lap issue, and you had to go very slwoly on the outlap to reserve them, which meant they were cold on the one lap you'd be able to do. Then, the tyres had a range of around 5 laps in the races, which is crazy. Takes pushing hard out of the equation entirely, and it became a Jenson Button contest. With my Schuamcher-esque driving style, I couldn't string together a 100% lap in qualifying, and couldn't get the maximum out of the tyres.

[Phoenix]

F1 Rejects has off-topic police now. They weren't kidding when they said 2012 would be the end of the world.

Technically it's only the anti-furore police. If this topic were to dissolve in a discussion on how funny it would be to paint Andrea Moda's sponsors on a black horse, nobody would mind.

It doesn't really work like this. Off-topic can be funny, but I didn't think it was advisable to let it go too much on a thread like this. There are less serious threads where off-topic can be funnier or more appropriate, that's my take on the fact.

[DanielPT]

F1 Rejects has off-topic police now. They weren't kidding when they said 2012 would be the end of the world.

Technically it's only the anti-furore police. If this topic were to dissolve in a discussion on how funny it would be to paint Andrea Moda's sponsors on a black horse, nobody would mind.

It doesn't really work like this. Off-topic can be funny, but I didn't think it was advisable to let it go too much on a thread like this. There are less serious threads where off-topic can be funnier or more appropriate, that's my take on the fact.

I think off-topic in the amount we do can be funny and healthy without being nuisance to others and destructive. Besides it is now in the DNA of the forum. This is even more true when people don't descend into personal attacks and that sort of stuff, which wasn't really the case here albeit we went very close. I really don't mind that as long as people respect each other. Finally, this thread will probably be off-topic again!

Anyway, that was my take on the "kostas-pamphlet-spanish-gp-2012" gate. Moving on, just out of curiosity, while they still say weather in Barcelona will be cloudy on Sunday, the chance of rain is now 0%.

[Salamander]

Moving on, just out of curiosity, while they still say weather in Barcelona will be cloudy on Sunday, the chance of rain is now 0%.

I don't think many of us were expecting that rain prediction to ring true, honestly.

[pasta_maldonado]

Moving on, just out of curiosity, while they still say weather in Barcelona will be cloudy on Sunday, the chance of rain is now 0%.

I don't think many of us were expecting that rain prediction to ring true, honestly.

Theres more chance of an overtake than rain

[DanielPT]

Moving on, just out of curiosity, while they still say weather in Barcelona will be cloudy on Sunday, the chance of rain is now 0%.

I don't think many of us were expecting that rain prediction to ring true, honestly.

Theres more chance of an overtake than rain

Barely. Just barely.

[Sublime_FA11C]

I don't think it's Pirelli's fault. The higher degradation is not what keeps driver's performance down. I think Pirelli just nailed it with their tyres by giving drivers a choice between a tyre that lasts longer but drives slower and one that is quicker but not only has a shorter track life but also wears out suddenly and almost completely. That's excatley how it should be.

The problem is that drivers can't make use of those quick tyres in the way they were meant. Drivers can't overtake even with DRS or KERS, and they cant maximise performance no matter how hard they push during the tyres short life because of lousy race tracks. The reason Schumacher wont push on soft tyres is that he knows there's too little gain to be made.

[DemocalypseNow]

Jackie Stewart said in a press conference today that Ferrari should hire di Resta as Massa's replacement for 2013. I wonder if JYS actually has any influence over the paddock or not, and whether these statements may make the slightest difference to PdR's career trajectory, which looked headed in the direction of Mercedes. He would be the ideal "understudy" to Alonso, so he says.

[Minardi Man]

Jackie Stewart said in a press conference today that Ferrari should hire di Resta as Massa's replacement for 2013. I wonder if JYS actually has any influence over the paddock or not, and whether these statements may make the slightest difference to PdR's career trajectory, which looked headed in the direction of Mercedes. He would be the ideal "understudy" to Alonso, so he says.

I'd have thought Ferrari would have their eyes set firmly on Perez still as a more long term prospect as opposed to Di Resta, I'd think Di Resta is more likely to aim for Schumacher's Mercedes seat or Hamilton's Mclaren seat in his future.

[Pamphlet]

Jackie Stewart said in a press conference today that Ferrari should hire di Resta as Massa's replacement for 2013. I wonder if JYS actually has any influence over the paddock or not, and whether these statements may make the slightest difference to PdR's career trajectory, which looked headed in the direction of Mercedes. He would be the ideal "understudy" to Alonso, so he says.

I'd have thought Ferrari would have their eyes set firmly on Perez still as a more long term prospect as opposed to Di Resta, I'd think Di Resta is more likely to aim for Schumacher's Mercedes seat or Hamilton's Mclaren seat in his future.

While those are certainly more likely targets for Paul, he WAS seen having a talk with di Montezemolo or some other Ferrari head honcho back in China or Malaysia I think. It's a distinct possibility.

[mario]

Jackie Stewart said in a press conference today that Ferrari should hire di Resta as Massa's replacement for 2013. I wonder if JYS actually has any influence over the paddock or not, and whether these statements may make the slightest difference to PdR's career trajectory, which looked headed in the direction of Mercedes. He would be the ideal "understudy" to Alonso, so he says.

I'd have thought Ferrari would have their eyes set firmly on Perez still as a more long term prospect as opposed to Di Resta, I'd think Di Resta is more likely to aim for Schumacher's Mercedes seat or Hamilton's Mclaren seat in his future.

While those are certainly more likely targets for Paul, he WAS seen having a talk with di Montezemolo or some other Ferrari head honcho back in China or Malaysia I think. It's a distinct possibility.

Realistically, JYS's comments are unlikely to have any significant influence on the paddock given that he isn't in a position of authority or commercial influence - were it somebody like Bernie Ecclestone making those sorts of comments, it is possible that it might have a larger impact. They won't hurt Di Resta's attempts to move up the field, as it is always better to have admirers to critics, but I would expect that any comments JYS would make are unlikely to be a deciding factor in whether di Montezemolo would want to hire Di Resta or not.

It is certainly possible that di Montezemolo might have been making a few enquiries concerning Di Resta's future career: it may not necessarily be the case that he wants Di Resta, but he might be interested to see which teams Di Resta might be talking to for the impact it would have on the driver market if Di Resta was available and in demand. The other side to that deal would be that, should Di Resta leave Force India, there would be the chance for Ferrari to push one of their favoured drivers, Bianchi, into Di Resta's seat.

Realistically, I would agree that Schumacher's seat at Mercedes is probably more likely to be what Di Resta is aiming at. It is true that Hamilton's seat at McLaren is potentially up for grabs given that Hamilton's contract is coming to an end this season, but realistically I'd expect Hamilton to stay on at McLaren (Alonso and Vettel would probably block attempts by Hamilton to move to their teams, whilst if Nico Rosberg didn't, Keke would almost certainly attempt to block such a deal).

[Sublime_FA11C]

Enstone then? or.....

.....


wait for it...


Williams

[DemocalypseNow]

Enstone then? or.....

.....


wait for it...


Williams

"Forget Real Madrid, I want to play for Deportivo La Coruña!"

[Phoenix]

Enstone then? or.....

.....


wait for it...


Williams

"Forget Valencia, I want to play for Deportivo La Coruña!"

Fixed.

[CoopsII]

Im looking forward to the race but Im really not looking forward to Monday morning when at least one UK newspaper will run the sports headline "(INSERT DRIVER NAME) REIGNS IN SPAIN!".

Every bloody year

[RonDenisDeletraz]

Im looking forward to the race but Im really not looking forward to Monday morning when at least one UK newspaper will run the sports headline "(INSERT DRIVER NAME) REIGNS IN SPAIN!".

Every bloody year

I remember a while back when in my local motorsport magazine always had their headline after the Turkish GP as "Turkish Delight".

[F1000X]

Can we bring the argument back? Or just have an argument thread? Call it the 'F1 Rejects Official Y U MAD BRO Argument Thread', and just have Mario and Phoenix transfer the argument posts into the thread?

Also, McLaren: stop being a bitch and don't use the high nose. We don't need every car on the grid to look like a pile of shite. Even Adrian Newey made an ugly car this year. Don't do it. Or do it, just win, please. Beat Vettel and keep Schumacher off the podium, that's all I really care about anymore.

Side note: how does a team that doesn't score point get sponsors? How? Why? What value is there in sponsoring (no offense) Caterham? Do I want to see them there, of course I do, but they aren't getting much air time, and they aren't moving up the grid; thats just a fact.

It is true that Hamilton's seat at McLaren is potentially up for grabs given that Hamilton's contract is coming to an end this season.

If Hamilton EVER leaves McLaren, it will be the dumbest move he ever makes, for so many reasons. Period.

...these statements may make the slightest difference to PdR's career trajectory, which looked headed in the direction of Mercedes. He would be the ideal "understudy" to Alonso, so he says.

For a moment I thought you were talking about Pedro De La Rosa. How amazing would that be?

[RonDenisDeletraz]

To be honest I can't see Lewis leaving McLaren anytime soon, mainly because there isn't anywhere else (competitive) to go.

[CoopsII]

Can we bring the argument back? Or just have an argument thread?

No, we cant. Now what YOU gonna do about it?

Eh?

Eh?

[TomWazzleshaw]

Side note: how does a team that doesn't score point get sponsors? How? Why? What value is there in sponsoring (no offense) Caterham? Do I want to see them there, of course I do, but they aren't getting much air time, and they aren't moving up the grid; thats just a fact.

It's probably much cheaper from a sponsor's point of view to sponsor a midfield or even backmarker team than a frontrunner, even if they do get less TV time as a result.

[Klon]

And they have almost guaranteed TV time if none of the major teams start Q1 early.

[TomWazzleshaw]

And they have almost guaranteed TV time if none of the major teams start Q1 early.

Plus, they usually get some time at the end of Q1 as well.

[mario]

Also, McLaren: stop being a bitch and don't use the high nose. We don't need every car on the grid to look like a pile of shite. Even Adrian Newey made an ugly car this year. Don't do it. Or do it, just win, please. Beat Vettel and keep Schumacher off the podium, that's all I really care about anymore.

Their best chances of producing a car that remains competitive is to raise the nose of the car slightly in order to increase their rear downforce, given that the team are looking for ways to modify the airflow beneath the floor of the car (with Whitmarsh saying that the new nose will almost certainly be launched in Barcelona http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99456 ).
McLaren are not moving to the "step nose" designs of the other teams; they are still keeping the same smooth transition, and hence a much more aesthetically pleasing solution than the other teams, although the nose cone is now slightly thinner and with a slight upward curve (at least on the upper surface). The changes have been reasonably subtle because converting the car to a step nose design would require a very substantial redesign (including modifying the front suspension layout, which McLaren believes is currently most optimal in its current configuration).

On another note, it looks like Ross Brawn will not be in attendance at Barcelona - it seems that Ross has been unwell in recent days and his doctor has advised him not to travel, so Bob Bell will be standing in for the Spanish GP (though Ross is expected to make a return to the paddock in Monaco). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99465

[Faustus]

Side note: how does a team that doesn't score point get sponsors? How? Why? What value is there in sponsoring (no offense) Caterham? Do I want to see them there, of course I do, but they aren't getting much air time, and they aren't moving up the grid; thats just a fact.

That is a very interesting question. It is a not very well reported fact that a lot of sponsorship deals do not actually involve money changing hands, at all. A lot of deals with multi-national corporations are done as payment for services or goods rendered to one company in the group, but displaying the name of a different company in the group. Another one is where the business interests of the team owners and/or directors are in some way connected to the sponsor, so in return for a reduction in the fee that is owed to the sponsor by a company that the team owner represents, the sponsor receives exposure on the car. So the team looks it bagged a big name sponsor, when nothing like that actually happened.
Perfect case in point of the latter is the GE (Generic Electric) sponsorship on the Caterham. Tony Fernandes' airline AirAsia bought a shitload of Airbus A320neo single-aisle aircraft (good choice) with Pratt & Whitney engines (bad choice) and as part of the fee owed for the aircraft (to Airbus), Tony Fernandes arranged with General Electric (through Pratt & Whitney) to provide exposure on the Formula 1 car and reduce the portion of the fee for the engines that Airbus would have to pay (the price for the aircraft is all in, airframe and engines), thereby reducing the cost of the aircraft. The link between P&W and GE is due to the joint venture between Pratt & Whitney and General Electric called Engine Alliance for development and manufacture of engines for long-range aircraft (not the A320neo, so it's even related to the product being sold).
Virgin was a different arrangement, where Virgin paid for the naming rights and the complete exposure on the car and then sold advertising space to other companies, usually related to business arrangements between the various companies that Richard Branson owns and the sponsor companies or their parent companies. Eventually Virgin sold the naming rights and most of the advertising space (but not all, I believe) to Marussia. A similar arrangement was in place with Brawn, although without the naming rights.

[Yannick]

Where is The Whole Spanish Press when you need it? I want a soft cushion!

[tommykl]

Im looking forward to the race but Im really not looking forward to Monday morning when at least one UK newspaper will run the sports headline "(INSERT DRIVER NAME) REIGNS IN SPAIN!".

Every bloody year

Even worse if it actually rains.

"(Driver name) reigns under the rain in Spain".

[mario]

Im looking forward to the race but Im really not looking forward to Monday morning when at least one UK newspaper will run the sports headline "(INSERT DRIVER NAME) REIGNS IN SPAIN!".

Every bloody year

Even worse if it actually rains.

"(Driver name) reigns under the rain in Spain".

Almost as bad as the inevitable headlines of "Pole on pole" that came after Kubica picked up his first pole position...

Anyway, a while back kostas22 asked if HRT were going to be bringing in any updates, and we now have the answer to that question: HRT intend to use new front and rear wings, coupled to a modified floor. However, it looks like De La Rosa will be the only driver to have the updated parts right away - a slight delay in manufacturing the parts means that Karthikeyan will not receive his updates until the Saturday morning practise session, although HRT are using this as an opportunity to carry out back to back tests between the updated and standard spec cars. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99471

[DemocalypseNow]

Anyway, a while back kostas22 asked if HRT were going to be bringing in any updates, and we now have the answer to that question: HRT intend to use new front and rear wings, coupled to a modified floor. However, it looks like De La Rosa will be the only driver to have the updated parts right away - a slight delay in manufacturing the parts means that Karthikeyan will not receive his updates until the Saturday morning practise session, although HRT are using this as an opportunity to carry out back to back tests between the updated and standard spec cars. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99471

Sounds like big updates. I am hoping for the best, hopefully this pushes them past Marussia on raw pace

[mario]

Anyway, a while back kostas22 asked if HRT were going to be bringing in any updates, and we now have the answer to that question: HRT intend to use new front and rear wings, coupled to a modified floor. However, it looks like De La Rosa will be the only driver to have the updated parts right away - a slight delay in manufacturing the parts means that Karthikeyan will not receive his updates until the Saturday morning practise session, although HRT are using this as an opportunity to carry out back to back tests between the updated and standard spec cars. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99471

Sounds like big updates. I am hoping for the best, hopefully this pushes them past Marussia on raw pace

It does sound like a reasonably sizeable update (although we'll have to wait and see what exactly is updated, since it could be anything from a small change of an endplate to a major reconfiguration of the cascade elements), but at the same time HRT are expecting Marussia to bring a raft of updates to Barcelona (there were some indications that Marussia did test a modified front wing at Mugello). If that is the case HRT would probably remain behind Marussia, albeit potentially closing the gap between themselves and Marussia in the process (which is what they are predicting will happen).

That said, it looks like Caterham have had to rethink their plans - in Mugello, Caterham were testing a fairly sizeable upgrade to their exhausts which would have seen them move towards the Sauber/McLaren configurations.


Unfortunately for them, it looks like they have been having teething problems with their design, not to mention that another one of their upgrades (a modified rear wing) did not work as effectively as expected. According to Heikki, they have decided to revert to their old exhaust layout for this race (with the new exhausts being worked on back at base), although the new rear wing will still be used despite the slightly inconclusive data from the test. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99472

[Faustus]

I certainly did it leave it open to interpretation. For all his faults, Scott Speed was a nice guy but perhaps out of his depth. He struggled in his season and a half with Toro Rosso and Red Bull had a lot of drivers at a time, so even though he had some reasonable results (although no points) it was probably bound to happen sooner or later. Without Red Bull he wouldn't have made it to Formula 1 and didn't have any sponsorship to get him a drive elesewhere.
I think Rossi already has a Super Licence, doesn't he? Didn't his Twitter account used to say something like 'only American driver with a Super Licence'?
Rossi might be the only choice for a couple of years, as there are some potentially decent drivers coming through.

You're right that Rossi already has a super licence - he was issued with one after completing a test for the BMW-Sauber team as his prize for winning the Formula BMW series, and so far seems to be the only American driver who still has one. I mentioned Jake Rosenzweig as I think he is probably the only other up and coming American driver in a European racing series who could become eligible for a super licence via his participation in the FR 3.5 series since, as you point out yourself, most of the other young American drivers are currently not in a high enough series to qualify.

I think Alexander Rossi is a pretty decent bet for an American driver in F1. He is a talented driver who won the BMW World Final announcing himself in Europe. He then had a pretty good rookie year in FR3.5 last year (finished 3rd). Being American in these times (when F1 has announced 2 races in the States) is the 2nd most sought innate characteristic in F1 after being a Woman and just edging being Chinese. I think that, regardless of what happens this year (he was a bit disappointing in the first FR3.5 weekend), he will drive in F1 in the near future with results that will depend on his chosen team although I think he has the talent to have a successful career.

So does everyone think of Rossi's performance in FP1? Not too bad, I'd say, just over 1 second slower than Petrov, which considering the amount of running he got in the car, is not too bad. Certainly did better than Clos, although that was possibly to be expected.

[Londoner]

Ah no! Please don't let this happen again.

[DanielPT]

You're right that Rossi already has a super licence - he was issued with one after completing a test for the BMW-Sauber team as his prize for winning the Formula BMW series, and so far seems to be the only American driver who still has one. I mentioned Jake Rosenzweig as I think he is probably the only other up and coming American driver in a European racing series who could become eligible for a super licence via his participation in the FR 3.5 series since, as you point out yourself, most of the other young American drivers are currently not in a high enough series to qualify.

I think Alexander Rossi is a pretty decent bet for an American driver in F1. He is a talented driver who won the BMW World Final announcing himself in Europe. He then had a pretty good rookie year in FR3.5 last year (finished 3rd). Being American in these times (when F1 has announced 2 races in the States) is the 2nd most sought innate characteristic in F1 after being a Woman and just edging being Chinese. I think that, regardless of what happens this year (he was a bit disappointing in the first FR3.5 weekend), he will drive in F1 in the near future with results that will depend on his chosen team although I think he has the talent to have a successful career.

So does everyone think of Rossi's performance in FP1? Not too bad, I'd say, just over 1 second slower than Petrov, which considering the amount of running he got in the car, is not too bad. Certainly did better than Clos, although that was possibly to be expected.

I think that it wasn't that bad, really. He lacks experience, but given time he will improve and who knows? I reckon he can be faster than Petrov. In my mind, though, it was Clos who got slightly bad in the picture, already taking into account the problems he had with the car. 3 seconds is an eternity.

Although our very own Rossi hater might argue otherwise.

[dr-baker]

Ah no! Please don't let this happen again.

Anyone who doesn't run in Q3 ought to start behind the HRTs...

[Phoenix]

Ah no! Please don't let this happen again.

Anyone who doesn't run in Q3 ought to start behind the HRTs...

They really need to forbid these kind of practises, they are harmful for the spectacle the powers-that-be are so keen in promoting.