2012 Spanish Grand Prix Discussion Thread

[James1978]

It appeared to me that in Jean-Eric Vergne's 1'st stint he was running Softs except on his Left Rear which looked like a Hard. ???

That's a point, I've heard quite a lot in the 80s drivers were allowed to mix compounds (Two examples I know of were Niki Lauda in the 1985 Dutch GP and Gerhard Berger in Mexico '86). I wish they were allowed to do that now!

[mario]

I was in a pub watching the Grand Prix and I almost literally peed myself in the closing laps.

Are you sure that wasn't down to being in the pub at the time?

It appeared to me that in Jean-Eric Vergne's 1'st stint he was running Softs except on his Left Rear which looked like a Hard. ???

So it was HE that got hit by Di Resta on lap one, not Vettel. How they both got away without any major damage is beyond me.

There are photos of the start which show that Vergne's left rear was a standard soft tyre (with clearly marked yellow sidewalls), but it looks like something rubbed the tyre markings off after that (or, alternatively, smeared rubber across the markings and covered them up). A bit of wheel banging with Di Resta would make sense given that he spent much of the race fighting with the Toro Rosso drivers...

[TomWazzleshaw]

It appeared to me that in Jean-Eric Vergne's 1'st stint he was running Softs except on his Left Rear which looked like a Hard. ???

So it was HE that got hit by Di Resta on lap one, not Vettel. How they both got away without any major damage is beyond me.

There are photos of the start which show that Vergne's left rear was a standard soft tyre (with clearly marked yellow sidewalls), but it looks like something rubbed the tyre markings off after that (or, alternatively, smeared rubber across the markings and covered them up). A bit of wheel banging with Di Resta would make sense given that he spent much of the race fighting with the Toro Rosso drivers...

I'm absolutely certain Di Resta hit someone on lap one from the onboard with Webber. I just didn't know if it was Vergne or Webber's teammate Vettel as those two were virtually line astern on the track

[Sublime_FA11C]

I don't think anyone has mentioned that usually the winner of Barcelona goes on to win the title.

Let that sink in... and i dare you to say it's imposible.

[Pamphlet]

I don't think anyone has mentioned that usually the winner of Barcelona goes on to win the title.

Let that sink in... and i dare you to say it's imposible.

I think everyone from Rosberg to Massa would rage if they were to see Maldonado win the championship.

[Sublime_FA11C]

I don't think anyone has mentioned that usually the winner of Barcelona goes on to win the title.

Let that sink in... and i dare you to say it's imposible.

I think everyone from Rosberg to Massa would rage if they were to see Maldonado win the championship.

That explains the fire...

[Pamphlet]

I don't think anyone has mentioned that usually the winner of Barcelona goes on to win the title.

Let that sink in... and i dare you to say it's imposible.

I think everyone from Rosberg to Massa would rage if they were to see Maldonado win the championship.

That explains the fire...

But that'd mean that they missed. They damaged Senna's car, not Maldonado's.

[DanielPT]

I think everyone from Rosberg to Massa would rage if they were to see Maldonado win the championship.

That explains the fire...

But that'd mean that they missed. They damaged Senna's car, not Maldonado's.

Schumacher missed too then, when he decided to ram a Williams!

[Pamphlet]

Schumacher missed too then, when he decided to ram a Williams!

Hit B.Senna, the nephew of A.Senna (I'm assuming everyone already knows the implications of that)?

Or hit Maldonado and therefore grant Alonso, his nemesis and the one who is currently trashing his good friend Felipe, a free win in front of his own crowd?

I think he chose right this time around.

[DemocalypseNow]

Schumacher missed too then, when he decided to ram a Williams!

Hit B.Senna, the nephew of A.Senna (I'm assuming everyone already knows the implications of that)?

Or hit Maldonado and therefore grant Alonso, his nemesis and the one who is currently trashing his good friend Felipe, a free win in front of his own crowd?

I think he chose right this time around.

There was always option three. Stuff it in a tyre wall on his own by driving like a clown. That would have been the right choice.

[DanielPT]

Schumacher missed too then, when he decided to ram a Williams!

Hit B.Senna, the nephew of A.Senna (I'm assuming everyone already knows the implications of that)?

Or hit Maldonado and therefore grant Alonso, his nemesis and the one who is currently trashing his good friend Felipe, a free win in front of his own crowd?

I think he chose right this time around.

There was always option three. Stuff it in a tyre wall on his own by driving like a clown. That would have been the right choice.

What is more humiliating about this whole Schumacher shenanigans is that Kimi is going silently, doing the job, and in 5 races already has 2 more podiums than Schumacher in 43 races...

[DemocalypseNow]

What is more humiliating about this whole Schumacher shenanigans is that Kimi is going silently, doing the job, and in 5 races already has 2 more podiums than Schumacher in 43 races...

It's hardly surprising given how much more talented Kimi is than Schumacher...

[Pamphlet]

What is more humiliating about this whole Schumacher shenanigans is that Kimi is going silently, doing the job, and in 5 races already has 2 more podiums than Schumacher in 43 races...

The Lotus is, at worst, the second best car on the grid. Mercedes are barely above Force India, and they're insanely inconsistent as well. China vs Bahrain, anyone?

Merc have only had the 4th best car in both of their previous years too.

[DanielPT]

What is more humiliating about this whole Schumacher shenanigans is that Kimi is going silently, doing the job, and in 5 races already has 2 more podiums than Schumacher in 43 races...

It's hardly surprising given how much more talented Kimi is than Schumacher...

No, not really surprising, but I wonder how much this fact is getting under Schumacher's skin. After all, it was only this season that he started his ferocious attack on Pirelli. Before he used the "it is getting a bit of time getting used to because the car behaves differently". Kimi then came and completely blown this excuse to pieces.

[TomWazzleshaw]

What is more humiliating about this whole Schumacher shenanigans is that Kimi is going silently, doing the job, and in 5 races already has 2 more podiums than Schumacher in 43 races...

The Lotus is, at worst, the second best car on the grid. Mercedes are barely above Force India, and they're insanely inconsistent as well. China vs Bahrain, anyone?

Merc have only had the 4th best car in both of their previous years too.

At worst? Lotus are only third on any given weekend on pure pace alone. The fact that they're the only team that has consistently gotten anything out of the car this year speaks volumes however.

[Klon]

Stop it, you. I am starting to feel empathy for Schumacher here and I know very well that I am not supposed to have such a thing. You are all confusing me.

[DanielPT]

What is more humiliating about this whole Schumacher shenanigans is that Kimi is going silently, doing the job, and in 5 races already has 2 more podiums than Schumacher in 43 races...

The Lotus is, at worst, the second best car on the grid. Mercedes are barely above Force India, and they're insanely inconsistent as well. China vs Bahrain, anyone?

Merc have only had the 4th best car in both of their previous years too.

I don't agree on this. Merc have shown blistering pace and certainly enough to win a race before Toleman did. They usually out qualify them. Thing is that Toleman is kinder on its tyres and that is certainly a strong point on the race and that shows in the GC. I say that Toleman have probably 3rd best car, perhaps even 4th, not counting with Williams and Ferrari.

Just like Wizzie said while I was writing this post.

[AndreaModa]

And the fact of the matter is, since 2010 Mercedes have been capable of challenging for podiums anyway, with Rosberg at least. For whatever reason, Schumacher just isn't cutting it.

[DanielPT]

And the fact of the matter is, since 2010 Mercedes have been capable of challenging for podiums anyway, with Rosberg at least. For whatever reason, Schumacher just isn't cutting it.

Yep, Rosberg got 4 podiums in the same period of time.

[Pamphlet]

At worst? Lotus are only third on any given weekend on pure pace alone. The fact that they're the only team that has consistently gotten anything out of the car this year speaks volumes however.

I can only agree with you in Australia, where both Red Bull and Sauber also had a better car than Lotus.
Other than that, they've never had a car that was worse than second best. And yes, that includes Malaysia. Hell, they had the very best one in Bahrain.

I don't agree on this. Merc have shown blistering pace and certainly enough to win a race before Toleman did. They usually out qualify them. Thing is that Toleman is kinder on its tyres and that is certainly a strong point on the race and that shows in the GC. I say that Toleman have probably 3rd best car perhaps even 4th not counting with Williams and Ferrari.

Are you seriously saying that, by virtue of the performance in China (where Mercedes, due to the constant yet cold conditions, were able to fully sidestep the tyre issues, and even THEN Rosberg hit the cliff at the end and would've been beaten by Button without the faulty stop), Mercedes have a race winning car? Does that mean that Sauber and Williams also have one?

Tyres count. Especially this year. The fact that Mercedes can't get them to work after 2.25 years says a lot about them.


The only part where I agree with any of this is the fact that Schuey was shite in 2010.

[DanielPT]

I don't agree on this. Merc have shown blistering pace and certainly enough to win a race before Toleman did. They usually out qualify them. Thing is that Toleman is kinder on its tyres and that is certainly a strong point on the race and that shows in the GC. I say that Toleman have probably 3rd best car perhaps even 4th not counting with Williams and Ferrari.

Are you seriously saying that, by virtue of the performance in China (where Mercedes, due to the constant yet cold conditions, were able to fully sidestep the tyre issues, and even THEN Rosberg hit the cliff at the end and would've been beaten by Button without the faulty stop), Mercedes have a race winning car? Does that mean that Sauber and Williams also have one?

I don't know if Sauber has a race winning car. The same can be said of Toleman. But I can say that Mercedes have a race winning car and so do Williams. Proof? They actually won a race!

What makes me say that Mercedes have a faster car is that, double DRS gimmick or not, they generally out qualify both Tolemans. And to do that you need to have a fast car. When I say 'generally out qualify both Tolemans' I mean Rosberg, of course.

[TomWazzleshaw]

I don't agree on this. Merc have shown blistering pace and certainly enough to win a race before Toleman did. They usually out qualify them. Thing is that Toleman is kinder on its tyres and that is certainly a strong point on the race and that shows in the GC. I say that Toleman have probably 3rd best car perhaps even 4th not counting with Williams and Ferrari.

Are you seriously saying that, by virtue of the performance in China (where Mercedes, due to the constant yet cold conditions, were able to fully sidestep the tyre issues, and even THEN Rosberg hit the cliff at the end and would've been beaten by Button without the faulty stop), Mercedes have a race winning car? Does that mean that Sauber and Williams also have one?

I don't know if Sauber has a race winning car. The same can be said of Toleman. But I can say that Mercedes have a race winning car and so do Williams. Proof? They actually won a race!

What makes me say that Mercedes have a faster car is that, double DRS gimmick or not, they generally out qualify both Tolemans. And to do that you need to have a fast car. When I say 'generally out qualify both Tolemans' I mean Rosberg, of course.

Besides, McLarens have for the most part been faster than anyone else. It's just they usually screw something up anyway, which is INCREDIBLY un-McLaren like. Which makes me wonder if Ron was still the captain at the helm, would McLaren be making anywhere near as many mistakes as they are right now? And Red Bull, despite not being anywhere near as dominant as the last two years suggest, are still there or there abouts when they get it right.

[Pamphlet]

I don't know if Sauber has a race winning car. The same can be said of Toleman. But I can say that Mercedes have a race winning car and so do Williams. Proof? They actually won a race!

So the 2008 Toro Rosso was a race winner, eh? There is such a thing as winning a race with a non-contending car through sheer luck or via a fluke. Or via skill. Or a combination of the aforementioned.

What makes me say that Mercedes have a faster car is that, double DRS gimmick or not, they generally out qualify both Tolemans. And to do that you need to have a fast car. When I say 'generally out qualify both Tolemans' I mean Rosberg, of course.

Merc outqualified the RBs in 4 out of 5 races. Could've done it in Bahrain as well, but Schumacher (+DRS issue) and Rosberg both messed up so we'll never know.

Does that mean they have a better car?

[Peter]

And the fact of the matter is, since 2010 Mercedes have been capable of challenging for podiums anyway, with Rosberg at least. For whatever reason, Schumacher just isn't cutting it.

Michael struggled with the 2010 Mercedes, it was understeery and not very twitchy, hence it wasn't really tapered to his driving style. At the time, Rosberg on the other hand was very happy with the car.

Last year, the car still wasn't perfect, but Michael was no slower than Nico in the races, but was quite a bit behind in Qualifying on occasion.

Now, if it weren't for a mechanical failure in Australia, Grosjean in Malaysia, a wheelnut in China, and Schumacher's sense of sight in Spain, he would have heaps more points than he does now, and more than Nico.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Now, if it weren't for a mechanical failure in Australia, Grosjean in Malaysia, a wheelnut in China, and Schumacher's sense of sight in Spain, he would have heaps more points than he does now, and more than Nico.

Interestingly enough, in three of those four races, Rosberg was either crap or merely average. Make of it what you will

[DanielPT]

Besides, McLarens have for the most part been faster than anyone else. It's just they usually screw something up anyway, which is INCREDIBLY un-McLaren like. Which makes me wonder if Ron was still the captain at the helm, would McLaren be making anywhere near as many mistakes as they are right now? And Red Bull, despite not being anywhere near as dominant as the last two years suggest, are still there or there abouts when they get it right.

For the most part. They did not had the pace to do it in Malaysia and in Bahrain, which means that there is still hope for when they start getting their weekends right they won't run away with it. That is in Hamilton's case. Button's is having more problems finding the balance of the car.

[DanielPT]

Now, if it weren't for a mechanical failure in Australia, Grosjean in Malaysia, a wheelnut in China, and Schumacher's sense of sight in Spain, he would have heaps more points than he does now, and more than Nico.

Interestingly enough, in three of those four races, Rosberg was either crap or merely average. Make of it what you will

I am starting to think that people were right having doubts about Rosberg. It seems that he cannot outdo his car, nor fix its problems for that matter and looks a bit average in the race. Somehow, I don't even rate his win as highly as Maldonado's. He is a solid driver that can win when everything comes together but that's it I am afraid.

[AndreaModa]

And the fact of the matter is, since 2010 Mercedes have been capable of challenging for podiums anyway, with Rosberg at least. For whatever reason, Schumacher just isn't cutting it.

Michael struggled with the 2010 Mercedes, it was understeery and not very twitchy, hence it wasn't really tapered to his driving style. At the time, Rosberg on the other hand was very happy with the car.

Last year, the car still wasn't perfect, but Michael was no slower than Nico in the races, but was quite a bit behind in Qualifying on occasion.

Now, if it weren't for a mechanical failure in Australia, Grosjean in Malaysia, a wheelnut in China, and Schumacher's sense of sight in Spain, he would have heaps more points than he does now, and more than Nico.

I agree, he's had some shocking luck so far this year, but he's also finished twice, and in the points, but only tenth. I'm sorry but anyone else in that seat performing at that level would have serious question marks over their future in the team. Take a look at one F. Massa. Just because its Schumacher, it doesn't make him immune to the fact that he's well past it and can't cut it competitively in a good car any more.

[Sunshine_Baby_[IT]]

And the fact of the matter is, since 2010 Mercedes have been capable of challenging for podiums anyway, with Rosberg at least. For whatever reason, Schumacher just isn't cutting it.

Michael struggled with the 2010 Mercedes, it was understeery and not very twitchy, hence it wasn't really tapered to his driving style. At the time, Rosberg on the other hand was very happy with the car.

Last year, the car still wasn't perfect, but Michael was no slower than Nico in the races, but was quite a bit behind in Qualifying on occasion.

Now, if it weren't for a mechanical failure in Australia, Grosjean in Malaysia, a wheelnut in China, and Schumacher's sense of sight in Spain, he would have heaps more points than he does now, and more than Nico.

I have to agree with the fact that in Australia and China Schumacher could have got some good results without his problems. I'm not sure about the fact he would have more points than Nico, but surely he would have more points than the 2 he actually has.

[Pamphlet]

I agree, he's had some shocking luck so far this year, but he's also finished twice, and in the points, but only tenth.

This and another comment of yours makes me question whether you've even watched this year's races. In both cases he was sent to the very far back of the grid by things that were out of his control. What's more is that neither of the races suited the Mercs.

[AndreaModa]

I agree, he's had some shocking luck so far this year, but he's also finished twice, and in the points, but only tenth.

This and another comment of yours makes me question whether you've even watched this year's races. In both cases he was sent to the very far back of the grid by things that were out of his control. What's more is that neither of the races suited the Mercs.

And sweeping comments like that will get you nowhere. It doesn't matter whether a race 'suits' a car or not - either the driver gets in, gets his head down and does the job like Rosberg just did in Spain, or they make foolish mistakes, moan about problems and generally give the impression that they know they're not as good as they once were. I appreciate the fact that you obviously admire Schumacher, but don't let it cloud your judgement too much!

[DemocalypseNow]

I agree, he's had some shocking luck so far this year, but he's also finished twice, and in the points, but only tenth.

This and another comment of yours makes me question whether you've even watched this year's races. In both cases he was sent to the very far back of the grid by things that were out of his control. What's more is that neither of the races suited the Mercs.

Out of his control? He was eliminated in Q1 at Bahrain! That's hardly out of his control, that's just being slow. It's his own fault he had to make up ground in that race. Yes, he was hindered by a gearbox change, but without it he would have started 18th anyway. His DRS flap was supposedly broken, but when you consider he was eliminated by a Caterham while driving the fastest one-lap car on the grid at the time, how is that a viable excuse? If Alonso's DRS had broken on his Ferrari he'd still have found a way to drag it through to Q2, becasue he's acutally a good racing driver. Unlike Cheatmacher.

You can only blame bad luck so many times. His race pace has been nothing special, it's hardly surprising he drove to the points considering he had a far better car underneath him than the STRs, Force Indias, etc. He is a pale shadow of his former self, that much is true.

[Klon]

If Alonso's DRS had broken on his Ferrari he'd still have found a way to drag it through to Q2, becasue he's acutally a good racing driver.

You just keep telling yourself that. DRS is, especially on a circuit like Bahrain, essential for the lap time. Without DRS, you easily drop some 10-15 positions. Not even Ayrton Senna in his prime would have made Q2 in that situation.

[Pamphlet]

And sweeping comments like that will get you nowhere. It doesn't matter whether a race 'suits' a car or not - either the driver gets in, gets his head down and does the job like Rosberg just did in Spain, or they make foolish mistakes, moan about problems and generally give the impression that they know they're not as good as they once were. I appreciate the fact that you obviously admire Schumacher, but don't let it cloud your judgement too much!

Honestly, it's impossible to be 100% objective in these situations. I can't say I've seen someone be 100% objective and knowledgeable at the same time.

Do you even know how hard it is, as a fan, to be fair and call Vettel's 2008 win what it really is (AKA a fluke)?

And I'll be fair and say that I once again don't agree with you.

[Pamphlet]

If Alonso's DRS had broken on his Ferrari he'd still have found a way to drag it through to Q2, becasue he's acutally a good racing driver.

You just keep telling yourself that. DRS is, especially on a circuit like Bahrain, essential for the lap time. Without DRS, you easily drop some 10-15 positions. Not even Ayrton Senna in his prime would have made Q2 in that situation.

By all means, this. Button, Webber and Raikkonen were all not exempt from this sort of mind lapse.

[DanielPT]

If Alonso's DRS had broken on his Ferrari he'd still have found a way to drag it through to Q2, becasue he's acutally a good racing driver.

You just keep telling yourself that. DRS is, especially on a circuit like Bahrain, essential for the lap time. Without DRS, you easily drop some 10-15 positions. Not even Ayrton Senna in his prime would have made Q2 in that situation.

I always though that the DRS fault excuse was a sham for what was actually a huge strategy blunder from Mercedes...

[Pamphlet]

If Alonso's DRS had broken on his Ferrari he'd still have found a way to drag it through to Q2, becasue he's acutally a good racing driver.

You just keep telling yourself that. DRS is, especially on a circuit like Bahrain, essential for the lap time. Without DRS, you easily drop some 10-15 positions. Not even Ayrton Senna in his prime would have made Q2 in that situation.

I always though that the DRS fault excuse was a sham for what was actually a huge strategy blunder from Mercedes...

That was my feeling as well, and it's looking especially more likely considering Red Bull and Macca made the exact same mistake last weekend.

[DanielPT]

And sweeping comments like that will get you nowhere. It doesn't matter whether a race 'suits' a car or not - either the driver gets in, gets his head down and does the job like Rosberg just did in Spain, or they make foolish mistakes, moan about problems and generally give the impression that they know they're not as good as they once were. I appreciate the fact that you obviously admire Schumacher, but don't let it cloud your judgement too much!

Honestly, it's impossible to be 100% objective in these situations. I can't say I've seen someone be 100% objective and knowledgeable at the same time.

Do you even know how hard it is, as a fan, to be fair and call Vettel's 2008 win what it really is (AKA a fluke)?

And I'll be fair and say that I once again don't agree with you.

Given that he led from lights to flag (almost) it is hard to call it a fluke. Yes, he got lucky to have wet weather, but then Bourdais wasn't even close of him. And I am no Vettel fan.

[Pamphlet]

And sweeping comments like that will get you nowhere. It doesn't matter whether a race 'suits' a car or not - either the driver gets in, gets his head down and does the job like Rosberg just did in Spain, or they make foolish mistakes, moan about problems and generally give the impression that they know they're not as good as they once were. I appreciate the fact that you obviously admire Schumacher, but don't let it cloud your judgement too much!

Honestly, it's impossible to be 100% objective in these situations. I can't say I've seen someone be 100% objective and knowledgeable at the same time.

Do you even know how hard it is, as a fan, to be fair and call Vettel's 2008 win what it really is (AKA a fluke)?

And I'll be fair and say that I once again don't agree with you.

Given that he led from lights to flag (almost) it is hard to call it a fluke. Yes, he got lucky to have wet weather, but then Bourdais wasn't even close of him. And I am no Vettel fan.

Who's to say he wouldn't have been? Bourdais qualified 4th but stalled on the grid. Out of those with the real race winning cars, Hamilton and Raikkonen were way back, whereas Kovalainen and Massa had no pace. Kubica did all he could.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Honestly, it's impossible to be 100% objective in these situations. I can't say I've seen someone be 100% objective and knowledgeable at the same time.

Do you even know how hard it is, as a fan, to be fair and call Vettel's 2008 win what it really is (AKA a fluke)?

And I'll be fair and say that I once again don't agree with you.

Given that he led from lights to flag (almost) it is hard to call it a fluke. Yes, he got lucky to have wet weather, but then Bourdais wasn't even close of him. And I am no Vettel fan.

Who's to say he wouldn't have been? Bourdais qualified 4th but stalled on the grid. Out of those with the real race winning cars, Hamilton and Raikkonen were way back, whereas Kovalainen and Massa had no pace. Kubica did all he could.

By that point in the year, BMW probably wasn't a race-winning prospect, no matter how hard Bobby K tried