The Marcus Grönholm Rally Thread

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 31 May 2012, 20:46

DanielPT wrote:By the way, another nail in WRC's coffin:

WRC loses Nokia deal.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 31 May 2012, 21:04

dr-baker wrote:
DanielPT wrote:By the way, another nail in WRC's coffin:

WRC loses Nokia deal.

And another.

Oh dear...this is really starting to get quite worrying. If the organisers won't pay up, then where will the championship go? There may be a few willing to pay the fee but it's obvious that not all are. I hope this all gets resolved pretty soon because it will be tragic to loose such an important championship.

Post by **mario** » 01 Jun 2012, 08:31

AndreaModa wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
DanielPT wrote:By the way, another nail in WRC's coffin:

WRC loses Nokia deal.

And another.

Oh dear...this is really starting to get quite worrying. If the organisers won't pay up, then where will the championship go? There may be a few willing to pay the fee but it's obvious that not all are. I hope this all gets resolved pretty soon because it will be tragic to loose such an important championship.

That does sound dire - I'm not surprised that the organisers are protesting against the fees nearly doubling, especially since the collapse of the main promoter lead to the FIA telling the organisers to find their own media deals (leading to them being squeezed on both sides). All things considered, I would not be surprised if the WRC did collapse at the end of the year, or at the very least weakened even further and limping through a cut down calendar.
On another note, Hirvonen and his co-driver Lehtinen have had a lucky escape after a major accident during a test session in Italy as part of their preparations for the next rally in New Zealand - Hirvonen rolled his car at high speed about halfway through the test session, but thankfully nobody was injured and Hirvonen and Lehtinen have been discharged from hospital after precautionary medical tests. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100022

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 01 Jun 2012, 16:41

I get the feeling the WRC will die before Solberg wins another rally. At this point the two seem equally likely.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 01 Jun 2012, 17:41

kostas22 wrote:I get the feeling the WRC will die before Solberg wins another rally. At this point the two seem equally likely.

I think it is a crying shame and a sad day when the WRC bows out... Such a historical championship. Will the IRC takes the lead then? Or rallying is just as doomed? I personally think the first although there could be a third...

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 01 Jun 2012, 18:13

DanielPT wrote:
kostas22 wrote:I get the feeling the WRC will die before Solberg wins another rally. At this point the two seem equally likely.

I think it is a crying shame and a sad day when the WRC bows out... Such a historical championship. Will the IRC takes the lead then? Or rallying is just as doomed? I personally think the first although there could be a third...

I feel the second, unfortunately. I think the problem is, the WRC doesn't feel like a premier championship anymore, the S2000 cars are so close to their WRC counterparts in a way that just wasn't possible in the 80s. There's no feeling of it being the pinnacle of motorsport. Which is what Formula One has over everyone else. I'm not advocating a return to Group B here, that would be far too dangerous, but the sport requires something that sets it aside from other forms of rallying, something it doesn't have right now.

Even if the performance has to be toned down, they need to use the Pikes Peak cars. The importance here is they look extreme, even if perhaps underneath they won't be cranking out 800hp.

Looks pretty badass, amirite?

Also, the 'power stage' idea is pretty tame, they need something a bit more interesting in terms of format. The Superspecials are a bit tame, time to copy the X-Games a bit I think! Also, perhaps something that encourages stylish driving. For example, if we brought the Fafe stage back to Rally Portugal, why don't we award bonus points for the biggest distance over the legendary jump?

Also, perhaps offering a new secondary trophy as part of the WRC could be interesting. The Colin McRae Trophy. There would be one nominated jump at every rally, where thata points scoring system would be in effect; 3-2-1. The top 8 drivers who collect the most points from this over the year go head-to-head elimination style at the season finale Superspecial. 8 becomes 4, 4 becomes 2, 2 becomes 1. It gives the sport something else, more than just fastest from A to B.

The purists would probably accuse me of being too gimmicky, but screw them, if everything went their way there won't be a World Rally Championship anymore. If the WRC is to survive well into the 21st Century, it needs a revolution. It's needs to be more accessible through the media, it needs to be more engaging for the casual fans to understand and enjoy. At the end of the day, without the extra casual fans on top of the committed fans, there won't be enough followers to justify the expense of running the championship.

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 01 Jun 2012, 22:05

kostas22 wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
kostas22 wrote:I get the feeling the WRC will die before Solberg wins another rally. At this point the two seem equally likely.

I think it is a crying shame and a sad day when the WRC bows out... Such a historical championship. Will the IRC takes the lead then? Or rallying is just as doomed? I personally think the first although there could be a third...

I feel the second, unfortunately. I think the problem is, the WRC doesn't feel like a premier championship anymore, the S2000 cars are so close to their WRC counterparts in a way that just wasn't possible in the 80s. There's no feeling of it being the pinnacle of motorsport. Which is what Formula One has over everyone else. I'm not advocating a return to Group B here, that would be far too dangerous, but the sport requires something that sets it aside from other forms of rallying, something it doesn't have right now.

Even if the performance has to be toned down, they need to use the Pikes Peak cars. The importance here is they look extreme, even if perhaps underneath they won't be cranking out 800hp.

Looks pretty badass, amirite?

Also, the 'power stage' idea is pretty tame, they need something a bit more interesting in terms of format. The Superspecials are a bit tame, time to copy the X-Games a bit I think! Also, perhaps something that encourages stylish driving. For example, if we brought the Fafe stage back to Rally Portugal, why don't we award bonus points for the biggest distance over the legendary jump?

Also, perhaps offering a new secondary trophy as part of the WRC could be interesting. The Colin McRae Trophy. There would be one nominated jump at every rally, where thata points scoring system would be in effect; 3-2-1. The top 8 drivers who collect the most points from this over the year go head-to-head elimination style at the season finale Superspecial. 8 becomes 4, 4 becomes 2, 2 becomes 1. It gives the sport something else, more than just fastest from A to B.

The purists would probably accuse me of being too gimmicky, but screw them, if everything went their way there won't be a World Rally Championship anymore. If the WRC is to survive well into the 21st Century, it needs a revolution. It's needs to be more accessible through the media, it needs to be more engaging for the casual fans to understand and enjoy. At the end of the day, without the extra casual fans on top of the committed fans, there won't be enough followers to justify the expense of running the championship.

Mainly they need to persuade Loeb to retire, or blindfold him, or put him in a pedal car. OK he is a genius, and maybe the best driver anywhere. But personally I don't feel motivated to watch when its always the same guy who wins. Its like Schumi in F1 ten years ago, or like Loeb in rallying ten years ago.

Of course Citroen could recruit a hotshot youngster and let him beat Loeb. Ah, but that didn't work either.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 01 Jun 2012, 22:07

Ross Prawn wrote:Of course Citroen could recruit a hotshot youngster and let him beat Loeb. Ah, but that didn't work either.

Well no, because they protected Loeb. There were team orders, Ogier is good enough to beat him, he's just a victim of circumstance. If the Polo R WRC is up to standard, Loeb may have a problem to deal with...

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 02 Jun 2012, 10:10

kostas22 wrote:
Ross Prawn wrote:Of course Citroen could recruit a hotshot youngster and let him beat Loeb. Ah, but that didn't work either.

Well no, because they protected Loeb. There were team orders, Ogier is good enough to beat him, he's just a victim of circumstance. If the Polo R WRC is up to standard, Loeb may have a problem to deal with...

Indeed. And I am very willing to see that fight. Let's just hope WRC doesn't folds first though...

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 02 Jun 2012, 12:16

I actually supported Ogier since he started out in WRC - not because I like him as a driver, just because I felt he was the driver with the most talent and the only person good enough to beat Loeb in a straight fight. Much like Vettel in F1, he started out at the junior team DNFing a lot, but in the second half of his first full season picked himself up and did well. Promotion to the senior squad followed but he was still but on a leash by Quesnel. That annoyed me, seeing the team orders in effect - yes, I knew they did it with Sordo, but it was understandable in that case, Dani wasn't a complete enough driver to win the WDC, he was only close to Loeb on tarmac, and most sealed surface events were at the business end of the calendar. But Ogier, that was different entirely, he had the raw talent to go toe to toe with Loeb anywhere. Without Seb One's experience he had troubles sometimes, but you could see he had the potential. If he was given fair treatment by Citroen in his final season there, he would have pushed Loeb all the way, perhaps to the point of Seb One binning it under pressure (yes, this really has happened before, believe it or not).

The irony is, before all of this happened, I wrote an article about how the WRC's downward spiral was unjustly pinned on Citroen. Well, considering more recent events, I've changed my mind. I blame Citroen. They hold all the cards and they were selfish with them. M-Sport must be rueing being hung out to dry by Ford Europe about having their works support renewed, if it had all been signed and sealed 9 months ago Ogier would be a Ford driver and be challenging for the title right now.

The frustrating thing about WRC is how if only a couple of events had turned out differently, the sport as a whole would look completely different. But now we're stuck with this mess. I don't know what to think of this series anymore, it's a total joke...

aliefbielefeld · Post by **aliefbielefeld** » 02 Jun 2012, 17:27

Guys its obvious now really that the future of Rallying its in IRC not WRC i only have one reason for that (It's Sebastien Loeb, he's just destroying WRC slowly but painfully)
Just shooing him out of WRC that'll solved the problem

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 02 Jun 2012, 18:12

aliefbielefeld wrote:Guys its obvious now really that the future of Rallying its in IRC not WRC i only have one reason for that (It's Sebastien Loeb, he's just destroying WRC slowly but painfully)
Just shooing him out of WRC that'll solved the problem

No, it would not since it would be just another blow to the WRC, which could not deal with yet another low blow. If Loeb leaves now, whether by his own choice or by being forced to, nobody who follows will hold his candle. While this comparison is left-fielded, it is not too far off the point: the NBA ratings suffered a blow after Michael Jordan retired after his second run. If you have a dominating team or driver, you need someone who can take him out, i.e. beat him. That is why it was essential that Alonso beat Schumacher in 2005 and 2006 and that is why it is essential to have Loeb drive rallies until someone turns out good enough to beat him, otherwise "Loeb's damages" to the WRC will be completed by "him tearing WRC down" (inverted commas are appropriate, blaming someone for the success they have just feels wrong to me).

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 02 Jun 2012, 19:07

Klon wrote:
aliefbielefeld wrote:Guys its obvious now really that the future of Rallying its in IRC not WRC i only have one reason for that (It's Sebastien Loeb, he's just destroying WRC slowly but painfully)
Just shooing him out of WRC that'll solved the problem

No, it would not since it would be just another blow to the WRC, which could not deal with yet another low blow. If Loeb leaves now, whether by his own choice or by being forced to, nobody who follows will hold his candle. While this comparison is left-fielded, it is not too far off the point: the NBA ratings suffered a blow after Michael Jordan retired after his second run. If you have a dominating team or driver, you need someone who can take him out, i.e. beat him. That is why it was essential that Alonso beat Schumacher in 2005 and 2006 and that is why it is essential to have Loeb drive rallies until someone turns out good enough to beat him, otherwise "Loeb's damages" to the WRC will be completed by "him tearing WRC down" (inverted commas are appropriate, blaming someone for the success they have just feels wrong to me).

People said I was being crazy when I said two years ago that the entire future of the sport depended on Sebastien Ogier. I don't seem so crazy now do I?

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 02 Jun 2012, 19:25

kostas22 wrote:People said I was being crazy when I said two years ago that the entire future of the sport depended on Sebastien Ogier. I don't seem so crazy now do I?

You still do, but that is something different. Your theory is not off at all.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 04 Jun 2012, 14:31

Klon wrote:
kostas22 wrote:People said I was being crazy when I said two years ago that the entire future of the sport depended on Sebastien Ogier. I don't seem so crazy now do I?

You still do, but that is something different. Your theory is not off at all.

Some say that crazy people sometimes come up with good theories! :lol:

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 04 Jun 2012, 23:36

I was watching the 2001 Rallye Sanremo a little while ago.

Something this era had that ours does not, something that is often overlooked, is the strength and depth of the entire field of drivers, not just those at the sharp end. At the end of Day One of said rally for example, Jesus Puras was leading for Citroen, Gilles Panizzi was second, Philippe Bugalski third (surging from 27th at the start of the day), Didier Auriol fourth, Sebastien Loeb fifth, Marcus Gronhom sixth (on a surface he famously dislikes, and it's also worth noting for this event, as reigning world champion, Peugeot did not nominate him for manufacturer points!!). Also remember, this was Loeb's WRC debut, he had never driven at the top level before. Meanwhile, Carlos Sainz, El Matador, one of the most successful drivers of all time, a master of sealed surfaces, could only muster seventh, his Ford team-mate Delecour 8th. And, way down in thirteenth and fourteenth were the championship leaders at the time, Colin McRae and Tommi Makinen. They were well out of the top 10 on PACE ALONE. If these two guys were at the works teams today they would be easily beating everyone bar Loeb, and probably matching him on gravel and beating him on snow. I think the overall quality of drivers back then is rather underestimated. Even the fringe drivers who would only manage to occasionally score points - Eriksson, Schwarz, Solberg, Märtin, Rovanperä, Arai, Loix, Liatti, Hagström, they were all able to shove the world class drivers aside every once in a while. It was rare, but it was possible. Now, it's just impossible for anyone that isn't Loeb, Hirvonen, Latvala, Solberg or Ostberg to make the podium. So, well done to Ostberg, he's the only independent driver able to take the fight to these guys at the front.

Even if we get rid of Loeb, we are left with Ogier + a crowd of medicore drivers. Problem most definitely not solved.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 05 Jun 2012, 05:02

I'm struggling to see how you can call Ogier a top driver, and not include Mikkelsen. Mikkelsen have seriously surprised me in the events he has been in together with Ogier!

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 05 Jun 2012, 16:54

Myrvold wrote:I'm struggling to see how you can call Ogier a top driver, and not include Mikkelsen. Mikkelsen have seriously surprised me in the events he has been in together with Ogier!

He needs more time in a WRC car. He was really really young when he last drove one regularly, so it wasn't surprising he made a few mistakes. His form in IRC may have been good, and sometimes he is on the pace/faster than Ogier in the WRC this year, but I wouldn't be so quick to definitively put him at the same level as Ogier. Maybe with time he will reach it, but they also said Latvala would go on to be one of the best. Hasn't happened. Let's wait and see.

Also, that's only one driver, it's hard to name drivers and say, "yes, I can say without doubt he is a better tarmac driver than Gilles Panizzi" or "yes, he is definitely a better snow driver than Thomas Rådström".

Post by **Londoner** » 08 Jun 2012, 19:41

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100162

Well, today is Friday, and there doesn't seem to be any more news on this...

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 Jun 2012, 20:27

East Londoner wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100162

Well, today is Friday, and there doesn't seem to be any more news on this...

Bye-bye WRC?

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 08 Jun 2012, 21:42

dr-baker wrote:
East Londoner wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100162

Well, today is Friday, and there doesn't seem to be any more news on this...

Bye-bye WRC?

I am sure FIA will find a few venues willing to pay in order to keep the misery going. Probably in the Middle East and Asia.

Post by **mario** » 09 Jun 2012, 16:35

DanielPT wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
East Londoner wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100162

Well, today is Friday, and there doesn't seem to be any more news on this...

Bye-bye WRC?

I am sure FIA will find a few venues willing to pay in order to keep the misery going. Probably in the Middle East and Asia.

Is there that much - or even any - interest in the WRC in Asia and the Middle East though?

The only Middle Eastern venue on the calendar at the moment is Jordan (and that is a pretty recent addition), whilst over in Asia there has only been intermittent representation in the form of the Japanese Rally. Given that the promoters of the WRC have never really tried building up any real awareness of the WRC in either the Middle East or Asia, I can't see anybody wanting to sign up with the FIA for a WRC round in either of those regions. IIRC, the only recent expressions in interest in new WRC rounds have come from South America - there has been a recent proposal for a round in Brazil that could be twinned with the Argentinian round - and a proposal to possibly revive a few of the classic rounds in Africa (the rounds in Kenya and the Cote d'Ivoire), though no firm commitment from either side over the proposal.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 09 Jun 2012, 16:44

It's odd about the lack of rallies in Asia, particularly when you consider the history of Japanese and other Asian manufacturers in the WRC. You've only got to think of the late 1990s when you had Subaru, Mitsubishi, Toyota, etc all right at the forefront and yet there was no representation for them in the form of home or local events.

One reason why there hasn't been any regular Asian rallies could be the lack of decent driver representation perhaps? It's certainly helped F1 in Japan having Japanese drivers in it, especially now there isn't any manufacturer presence in it any more. It's a rather obscure example, but Japanese model kit company Fujimi have just released a 1:20 plastic kit of the Sauber C30 with the option to make it Kobayashi's. That kit wouldn't have existed if a Japanese driver hadn't been driving for them.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 09 Jun 2012, 18:10

The FIA Middle East Rally Championship has a bit of a domination problem as well. Nasser Al-Attiyah may look a bit mediocre at world level but he wins everything at regional level. Khalid Al-Qassimi is occasionally up there and has been champion in the past, and Yazeed Al-Rajhi is the region's only real great hope for the future (probably has about 10 years tops still left in the tank). Only one racing great has come from that region of the world really, Mohammed ben Sulayem.

A WRC based primarily in that region just can't work. There just isn't enough interest. There aren't enough 'big' rallies. No-one will take a WRC without Finland seriously. It needs snow, it needs Southern European asphalt, it needs the 1000 Lakes. End of. If the WRC can't manage that there is no point in its existence.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 10 Jun 2012, 03:20

To be fairly honest I believe Sebastien Loeb's dominance was a small but contributing factor in the WRC's all but confirmed demise.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 10 Jun 2012, 04:51

AndreaModa wrote:
dr-baker wrote:And another.
Oh dear...this is really starting to get quite worrying.

I think the FIA's intention is to sign all the events up on a one-year deal, sort out all the issues plaguing the category in 2013, and then start over from 2014 and guarantee the events some stability.

Post by **mario** » 10 Jun 2012, 12:58

Captain Hammer wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:
dr-baker wrote:And another.
Oh dear...this is really starting to get quite worrying.

I think the FIA's intention is to sign all the events up on a one-year deal, sort out all the issues plaguing the category in 2013, and then start over from 2014 and guarantee the events some stability.

If that is their intention, then they'll have to hammer out some sort of compromise soon - as expected, all of the venues selected for the WRC have rejected the terms that the FIA had offered them, despite the best efforts of the WRC Commission president (Jarmo Mahonen) and the WRC manager (Michele Mouton) to coerce them into signing the contract.
It looks like the FIA and the event organisers will try to sort out some sort of deal at the World Motor Sport council meeting next Friday, though it remains to be seen which side will make concessions. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100269

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 10 Jun 2012, 14:30

The WRC do not have a leg to stand on right now. If it were not an FIA championship it would have crumbled to dust by now. They have no promoter in place, no rallies willing to be part of the championship, sponsors heading for the exit faster than than audience members watching the latest Adam Sandler film, and most of all, a piss poor reputation. They don't have any chips to bargain with. If the WRC do not compromise massively then they won't find 12 events willing to be on their calendar. It looks like the IRC may take over the WRC's mantle as being the biggest rallying series in motorsport very soon.

This wouldn't happen in F1, because it has a big enough reputation to demand certain things from its participants. The WRC does not have said reputation anymore. The WRC is a joke. If the entire series bit the dust, the general public would not notice, only the true fans. Which is perhaps why, the WRC should just be left to die, and replaced by a brand new type of premier rally championship.

FMecha · Post by **FMecha** » 10 Jun 2012, 15:01

kostas22 wrote:Which is perhaps why, the WRC should just be left to die, and replaced by a brand new type of premier rally championship.

IRC is there already. Do you think that IRC does not have possibility to became a premier rally championship? :roll:

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 10 Jun 2012, 16:38

FMecha wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Which is perhaps why, the WRC should just be left to die, and replaced by a brand new type of premier rally championship.

IRC is there already. Do you think that IRC does not have possibility to became a premier rally championship?

I don't think it does. It is not an FIA championship, it is run and promoted by Eurosport. It doesn't have the necessary clouth (financially or reputation-wise) to become a world renowned championship. The formula of car doesn't allow for it. S2000 is not a type of car anywhere near advanced enough to be considered the peak of rallying. A top-level rally car must have a turbo, as far as I'm concerned. We need turbocharged, fire-spitting machines that look intimidating to the average casual spectator. Something that has the 'wow' factor in the same way F1 does. It's what made WRC so popular during Group B.

I'm not saying we should go back to exactly the way Group B was, but safety has taken great strides since then. The FIA should consider being a little more ambitious with its technical regulations for the WRC. The WRC is boring not just because Loeb wins everything, but the sport looks boring to an outsider in other ways as well.

Vepe · Post by **Vepe** » 10 Jun 2012, 20:07

FMecha wrote:The FIA should consider being a little more ambitious with its technical regulations for the WRC. The WRC is boring not just because Loeb wins everything, but the sport looks boring to an outsider in other ways as well.

Division 1 Rallycross?

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 10 Jun 2012, 20:22

Vepe wrote:
FMecha wrote:The FIA should consider being a little more ambitious with its technical regulations for the WRC. The WRC is boring not just because Loeb wins everything, but the sport looks boring to an outsider in other ways as well.

Division 1 Rallycross?

I was thinking of something more like this. Maybe not with the same 900hp engine, but still, you get my point.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 10 Jun 2012, 21:15

kostas22 wrote:
Vepe wrote:
FMecha wrote:The FIA should consider being a little more ambitious with its technical regulations for the WRC. The WRC is boring not just because Loeb wins everything, but the sport looks boring to an outsider in other ways as well.

Division 1 Rallycross?

I was thinking of something more like this. Maybe not with the same 900hp engine, but still, you get my point.

Would love to see that Suzuki do a lap of the Manx TT with all 900 bhp (watch at 2:16 and from 4:03...)

Post by **mario** » 10 Jun 2012, 22:23

kostas22 wrote:
FMecha wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Which is perhaps why, the WRC should just be left to die, and replaced by a brand new type of premier rally championship.

IRC is there already. Do you think that IRC does not have possibility to became a premier rally championship?

I don't think it does. It is not an FIA championship, it is run and promoted by Eurosport. It doesn't have the necessary clouth (financially or reputation-wise) to become a world renowned championship. The formula of car doesn't allow for it. S2000 is not a type of car anywhere near advanced enough to be considered the peak of rallying. A top-level rally car must have a turbo, as far as I'm concerned. We need turbocharged, fire-spitting machines that look intimidating to the average casual spectator. Something that has the 'wow' factor in the same way F1 does. It's what made WRC so popular during Group B.

I'm not saying we should go back to exactly the way Group B was, but safety has taken great strides since then. The FIA should consider being a little more ambitious with its technical regulations for the WRC. The WRC is boring not just because Loeb wins everything, but the sport looks boring to an outsider in other ways as well.

I can see what you mean about the need for spectacle and a sense of uniqueness - even though it has been worked out that a modern WRC car would be quicker than a Group B car around a modern rally stage, the Group B cars do stick in the mind much more than a modern WRC does because of their dramatic appearance.
At the same time, I can kind of see why the FIA might be wary of reverting to more liberal specifications given that there were complaints about the cost of buying cars - the current cars still cost around $1 million upfront (i.e. before servicing costs are taken into account), and that is a fair bit cheaper than what the custom rally cars of earlier years used to cost (I can recall an article in Autosport, IIRC, breaking down the cost of the previous generation of rally cars, and they cost the best part of £850,000, or around $1.3 million, in the mid 2000's). Whether the current manufacturers would be prepared to pay up for a potentially more expensive series remains open to question...

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 11 Jun 2012, 00:37

mario wrote:can see what you mean about the need for spectacle and a sense of uniqueness - even though it has been worked out that a modern WRC car would be quicker than a Group B car around a modern rally stage, the Group B cars do stick in the mind much more than a modern WRC does because of their dramatic appearance.
At the same time, I can kind of see why the FIA might be wary of reverting to more liberal specifications given that there were complaints about the cost of buying cars - the current cars still cost around $1 million upfront (i.e. before servicing costs are taken into account), and that is a fair bit cheaper than what the custom rally cars of earlier years used to cost (I can recall an article in Autosport, IIRC, breaking down the cost of the previous generation of rally cars, and they cost the best part of £850,000, or around $1.3 million, in the mid 2000's). Whether the current manufacturers would be prepared to pay up for a potentially more expensive series remains open to question...

Do you think anyone would want to spend $1 million on a series with zero credibility? Because that is the situation the WRC faces right now. The extra cost would be worthwhile if people actually took the sport seriously. How is anyone supposed to feel excited about a sport which is merely a bunch of hatchbacks with fancy paintwork? That's what it probably seems like to those that don't understand the engineering going into the WRC spec cars. They're fast but they certainly don't look like it.

Quick show of hands, which would you prefer to see in the WRC out of these two?

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 11 Jun 2012, 11:33

I still think WRC debates itself with another more fundamental problem. Let's face it, no matter what you decide or how you make it, Rally is not TV friendly. It does not pits cars against each other, you barely can see any action on live TV and even then, TV's can't show the full leg because it takes too long between stages and it goes on all day with many dull moments in between like interminable footage of helicopters showing the same landscape over and over again. Now, Dakar circumvents this by being a very hard rally which happens only once a year. In the 80's only the people who went to see it mattered and so rally was very popular but then TV did become ever more preponderant by making it global and became focused on entertainment. Most of US based sports understood this and went that way (if not there already). In Europe we decided (correctly IMHO) to stick to sporting roots. This meant though that it had some costs. WRC hanging by a thread is one of them.

Vepe · Post by **Vepe** » 11 Jun 2012, 13:33

DanielPT wrote:I still think WRC debates itself with another more fundamental problem. Let's face it, no matter what you decide or how you make it, Rally is not TV friendly. It does not pits cars against each other, you barely can see any action on live TV and even then, TV's can't show the full leg because it takes too long between stages and it goes on all day with many dull moments in between like interminable footage of helicopters showing the same landscape over and over again.

Even though rallying isn´t TV friendly with no real chance for live broadcast (excluding SuperSpecials and other bullbathplug like that), but a comprehensive review about 1-hour long at the end of each day can overcome the issue. Currently they focus too much on driver interviews (atleast in finnish TV) and the program is only 30 minutes long (which is too short).

I don´t know about the casual fans, but I would like to see something about the other classes than WRC, like S2000 or Group N, in the program, but currently they can´t squeeze them to the ½-hour one. With 1-hour program they can be reviewed at the end of the program in about 10-15 minutes.

So for TV, they should use the following format:

Program lenght: 1 hour (maybe 1 ½ hours for the last day to review the first days)

1st: Introduction of the days stages
2nd: Stages before the first service, following top-5 cars and surprises of these stages
3rd: Couple of short interviews from service
4th: Rest of the stages, again following top-5 and surprises of the stage and reviewing the results

These four parts could be done in about 45 minutes, and then...

5th: Days review for the other classes, maybe class leaders' interview after the day.

Warren Hughes · Post by **Warren Hughes** » 16 Jun 2012, 10:58

I know this is the WRC thread, but I wanted to bring to attention the fatality in the IRC this weekend. Gareth Roberts RIP http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18470464

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 16 Jun 2012, 12:39

Warren Hughes wrote:I know this is the WRC thread, but I wanted to bring to attention the fatality in the IRC this weekend. Gareth Roberts RIP http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18470464

Unbelieveable. These two were really going places in rallying, I think Roberts was definitely in line to become a top co-driver on the level of Patterson or Grist.

I don't think you can underestimate the impact this is going to have on Breen. Regardless of how the accident happened, he is going to blame himself. I wonder if he will continue rallying at all after this. I remember it took Markko Martin a year just to drive a rally car again after the crash that killed Michael Park, and he vowed never to return to the WRC again. He has been a test driver for Subaru and Ford since then, but, very rarely does he drive in a competitive rally environment. I just wonder if Breen will ever go back and drive again after this.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 16 Jun 2012, 20:59

It was described on Autosport as being similar to Robert Kubica's accident, so even if Kubica never returns to F1, it shows how fortunate he was and how unfortunate Gareth Roberts was. RIP.