CoopsII wrote:Sounds quite sensible to me. If you're deffo not going to finish why bother pootling about at the back? Give the driver the chance to prove that he and the car are capable of some sort of pace and, yes, get some exposure.
More please HRT.
Then HRT should be excluded from the sport. They are obligated to compete to the best of their ability. If the best of their ability is that they park the car after twenty laps, then they have no business being in the sport.
I think that's a bit extreme. HRT are clearly struggling when it comes to even qualifying let alone lasting a race distance. They could've been using the race as a test-session. Forti started-and-parke at France 96 due to maxing out their engine mileage so should they have been kicked out?! If that's not a good enough reason then what about Mercedes planning on sending Schumacher back out after 'fixing' his DRS? Had that popped back up on the approach to the hairpin there might have been an almighty crash. That's dangerous too.
RIP NAN - 26/12/2014 RIP DAD - 9/2/2015
Currently building a Subaru Impreza to compete in the 2016 MSV Trophy. PremierInn spokesperson for Great Ormond Street Hospital
Captain Hammer wrote:Then HRT should be excluded from the sport. They are obligated to compete to the best of their ability. If the best of their ability is that they park the car after twenty laps, then they have no business being in the sport.
Brilliant. Lets have a formula with 6 teams. In fact lets back-date that rule and exclude several additional teams who were poor in their formative seasons and that leaves us with, um, two teams? One?
tommykl wrote:Arrows start-and-parked in qualifying in France 2002, I don't recall a mass protest for the team to be excluded
I know about Arrows but their situation was slightly different to Forti and HRT. Forti were taken over and destroyed by Shannon whilst HRT have continually struggled but competed THE BEST THEY CAN. Arrows were brought down to nothing by Walkinshaw's dodgy dealings.
RIP NAN - 26/12/2014 RIP DAD - 9/2/2015
Currently building a Subaru Impreza to compete in the 2016 MSV Trophy. PremierInn spokesperson for Great Ormond Street Hospital
Captain Hammer wrote:Then HRT should be excluded from the sport. They are obligated to compete to the best of their ability. If the best of their ability is that they park the car after twenty laps, then they have no business being in the sport.
Brilliant. Lets have a formula with 6 teams. In fact lets back-date that rule and exclude several additional teams who were poor in their formative seasons and that leaves us with, um, two teams? One?
EDIT: This forum would need some tweaks too. The Heroic Failures of F1 would now be those who havent been on the podium for a while....
Captain Hammer wrote:Then HRT should be excluded from the sport. They are obligated to compete to the best of their ability. If the best of their ability is that they park the car after twenty laps, then they have no business being in the sport.
Humm... Then why not exclude McLaren? Their clearly fail at doing an out lap, flying lap and in lap sequence properly. Not to mention that they cannot do a pit stop without something weird happening. Or why not exclude Mercedes? They failed with Schumacher's DRS. Seriously, HRT have been finishing races this season and they failed with those brakes at this particular race. It happens to the best, so why cannot that happen with them?
Colin Kolles on F111, 2011 HRT challenger: The car doesn't look too bad; it looks like a modern F1 car.
Because the difference is that HRT knew they weren't going to make it. And rather than trying to find a solution to the problem, they decided to run the cars, which means they had no intention to making it to the end of the race. The difference is that, for all their mistakes, the other teams had every intention of completing the race.
mario wrote:I'm wondering what the hell has been going on in this thread [...] it's turned into a bizarre detour into mythical flying horses and the sort of search engine results that CoopsII is going to have a very hard time explaining ...
Captain Hammer wrote:Because the difference is that HRT knew they weren't going to make it. And rather than trying to find a solution to the problem, they decided to run the cars, which means they had no intention to making it to the end of the race. The difference is that, for all their mistakes, the other teams had every intention of completing the race.
And McLaren knew that Hamilton would run out of fuel before completing the whole sequence right at the start of his flying lap and I didn't saw anyone outraging about McLaren staying in the sport. That didn't happened either when Michelin made the Indy 2005 blunder. F1 is filled with examples of teams or entities that know they won't last the distance but they go out anyway. HRT might have known it was highly unlikely to see the flag but no one would know for sure. They at least tried and you can't blame them for that. It is not like they do this on consistent basis.
Colin Kolles on F111, 2011 HRT challenger: The car doesn't look too bad; it looks like a modern F1 car.
Captain Hammer wrote:Because the difference is that HRT knew they weren't going to make it. And rather than trying to find a solution to the problem, they decided to run the cars, which means they had no intention to making it to the end of the race. The difference is that, for all their mistakes, the other teams had every intention of completing the race.
What are they supposed to do? Stop their primary function as an organsiation just becasue they're having some brake issues? That's ridiculous, it's not like they are deliberately start and parking in the same way NASCAR teams do to collect prize money. They went out hoping that somehow the cars would make the finish, even if it was very unlikely they would do so. If you're going to use this is a criteria to kick teams out of the championship, then perhaps Minardi should have been ejected from Formula One in 1986
Also, you have no proof the HRTs were indeed underfuelled, it is merely speculation, a theory. What we know is both cars retired with brake failure. There is no cold hard evidence to suggest they were underfuelled.
Novitopoli wrote:Everytime someone orders at Pizza Hut, an Italian dies.
Captain Hammer wrote:Because the difference is that HRT knew they weren't going to make it. And rather than trying to find a solution to the problem, they decided to run the cars, which means they had no intention to making it to the end of the race. The difference is that, for all their mistakes, the other teams had every intention of completing the race.
You might find more support for getting rid of HRT on another forum, over here we support the triers not want rid of them.
Saying that, the facts are there. For BOTH cars to have brake issues is common, not after 30 or so laps. If it was the last lap fair you can say fair enough.
Surely they wouldnt risk their drivers safety in doing something like this. You can imagine if their brakes failed commin down on the hairpin, one of their drivers brakes, keeps going into the wall, resulting in injury.
Like I said, I hope that it was not a deliberate ploy, and that they learn from it.
Miserable Thierry (Boutsen) staggers round mostly on ten cylinders (out of 12) with no clutch, low oil pressure, bad brakes and no grip to finish tenth, 3 laps down...
(Murray Walkers review of Boutsen's Brazil 1991 race).
Of course, IF they were underfuelled, this would have put a bit less strain on the brakes in the early laps of the race and may have been a bit safer?
watka wrote:I find it amusing that whilst you're one of the more openly Christian guys here, you are still first and foremost associated with an eye for the ladies!
dinizintheoven wrote:GOOD CHRISTIANS do not go to jail. EVERYONE ON FORMULA ONE REJECTS should be in jail.
Blimey, all this furore set off by one almost certainly untrue rumour.
Personally, if it was true, I couldn't care less. De La Rosa was properly impressive out there. Karthikeyan managed to look impressive for all of 5 seconds, with his spin...
Fetzie on Ferrari wrote:How does a driver hurtling around a race track while they're sous-viding in their overalls have a better understanding of the race than a team of strategy engineers in an air-conditioned room?l
I dont seem to remember Karthikeyan being quite this awful last season...
HRT need to ditch him now the car is starting to pick up the pace to challenge the Marussias. However it doesn't seem like they've got that major sponsorship deal that was rumoured, or much chance of picking any more up. Could they possibly stick with DLR and KAR for the whole season?? Without even a mild case of food poisoning somewhere?
slowest_indian wrote:Glock also retired due to his brakes being about to give up. Lets throw Virgin out too...
The difference between Glock's retirement and that of the HRT's is that Glock's overheating brake was due to damage picked up on track (according to Marussia, a piece of debris struck and broke the brake duct), whereas it is alleged that HRT were aware of their problems before the race itself (although, at the moment, it seems that only Sky have run with that claim, and cbbcisace has pointed out that HRT deny the allegations). To be fair, whilst Captain Hammer's comments about excluding the team for a lack of professional behaviour is perhaps a touch harsh given the slightly shaky foundations for this claim, if the claims are true then I can agree with his point that HRT should have considered withdrawing from the event on safety grounds. Although it is not especially common, there are precedents for teams withdrawing on safety ground - Minardi's decision to withdraw from the 2002 Spanish GP on safety grounds due to the front wing failures they were experiencing that weekend is perhaps the most recent example - and ultimately the safety and welfare of all participants should be the overriding consideration.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning: "The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
Let's make a couple of points. I should be going to bed because tomorrow will be a very special day in a certain way, but hell, this is F1 Rejects we are talking about and I'm a specially rejectful guy. Whatever...
First of all, during the race DLR's advantage over the Marussias was smaller than in qualifying. Did the Marussias underfuel? Of course not, Pic made it to the line. The HRTs had been relatively fast for the whole weekend, and it's not the first time this happens at Canada, so no surprise.
Then, the braking issue. DLR told after the race that they knew their brakes would have a tough time, they were on the limit and using as much cooling as possible but the higher temperatures on race day made their wear terminal. After 3 laps the team told DLR that he should start saving as much brakes as possible, because the wear was much higher than anticipated (because of the higher temperatures).
And then I must tell two tales. Tale number 1: in the 2003 Canadian GP, Ferrari saw that Schumacher's brakes were unlikely to last the distance, from early on. He had to take care of them for most of the race and was closely followed by both Williams cars (and Alonso's Renault in the final laps), but he managed to finish. Were Ferrari unprofessional and risked the life of their driver doing that? I think not, they wanted to win. Was it worth it? I think so.
Tale number 2: for most of the 2005 season, Bridgestone were unable to develop a competitive tyre that lasted the distance, as per the rules. In many races that year they brought compounds that Ferrari knew would struggle to make the distance, yet they both went out and tried to compete. Schumacher had to retire after one of his tyres exploded in the Spanish GP... This is one of the reasons why Ferrari didn't accept a dispense for the Michelin teams at Indy later that year, by the way.
Finally: it's the first time HRT have brake issues! It seems clear that this is a one-off thing, and that their brakes are good enough for a F1 car.
Go home, Bernie Ecclestone!
"There will be no other victory this year, I can tell you, more welcomed than this one" Bob Varsha, 1995 Canadian GP
Because there is no test to check how long the brakes will last for.
I don't want HRT to fail, by the way. I want them to put the effort in to make it to the end of the race.
mario wrote:I'm wondering what the hell has been going on in this thread [...] it's turned into a bizarre detour into mythical flying horses and the sort of search engine results that CoopsII is going to have a very hard time explaining ...
Captain Hammer wrote:Because there is no test to check how long the brakes will last for.
I don't want HRT to fail, by the way. I want them to put the effort in to make it to the end of the race.
Who says they aren't? If they're unlucky enough to be let down by their brake manufacturer, and know there's nothing they can do to fix it before the race, what are they supposed to do? Be blissfully ignorant and laden the car with unnecessary fuel? Accusing HRT of 'not putting in effort' is driving a dagger into their back. They moved to new facilities, are revamping the entire team from top to bottom, turning around a team that was in a dire state since day one. They are not rich, they can't just throw money at the problem until it goes away like certain other teams past and present have. Accusing them of lacking effort is pretty damn defamatory.
Novitopoli wrote:Everytime someone orders at Pizza Hut, an Italian dies.
Captain Hammer wrote:I don't want HRT to fail, by the way. I want them to put the effort in to make it to the end of the race.
Effort? With a fraction of the Ferrari budget and a much smaller workforce Im sure they're taking it easy. Just imagine how much harder they'd have to work if they had all that extra money to spend
And I wouldnt say the comments are 'defamatory' just plain silly. And again
How many people do HRT employ throughout the whole team? From mechanics to designers to truckers to office staff? 500? 600? No. They have less than 100. LESS THAN 100!
What they've done with that amount of staff is simply outstanding.
RIP NAN - 26/12/2014 RIP DAD - 9/2/2015
Currently building a Subaru Impreza to compete in the 2016 MSV Trophy. PremierInn spokesperson for Great Ormond Street Hospital
cbbcisace wrote:Just some HRT news/rumours from today
They will be 90% staff from Dec 2012 and will have 150 staff in 2013, which is double the staff they have now.
There budget for 2013 will be €60m which is nearly double 2012 budget.
I would imagine KERS is on the agenda as the team will need experience before the 2014 rules come into play.
Whoa, where did all the money come from???
A Ponzi scheme involving nefariously acquired shares in BBVA, Miguel Ángel Jiménez's private villa, taking out PIK loans secured against Alain Prost's nose, and major sponsorship from a Latin pornography production company. Or maybe Spain's banking sector has dried up becasue Luis Pérez-Sala stole all their money.
Novitopoli wrote:Everytime someone orders at Pizza Hut, an Italian dies.
I suppose the 60million will mostly come from sponsorship they're hoping to get. A figure of 40-45 million is probably more accurate if their cars livery is as empty as it is now. Still, 45 million is nothing to mock.
RIP NAN - 26/12/2014 RIP DAD - 9/2/2015
Currently building a Subaru Impreza to compete in the 2016 MSV Trophy. PremierInn spokesperson for Great Ormond Street Hospital
AdrianSutil wrote:As it's HRT, any of the above could be true
I suppose the 60million will mostly come from sponsorship they're hoping to get. A figure of 40-45 million is probably more accurate if their cars livery is as empty as it is now. Still, 45 million is nothing to mock.
I'm simply going to say that maybe Thesan Capital are putting money in next year, this year they are surviving on new sponsorship they have, FOM Money and Carabantes money ( they promised €10m when they got bought out)
thats why they pitted him.
