2012 Indian Grand Prix Discussion Thread

QuickYoda41 · Post by **QuickYoda41** » 27 Oct 2012, 09:33

Can you get a more boring grid than this?

girry · Post by **girry** » 27 Oct 2012, 09:43

It's 2011 all over again, guys.

Now was there anyone here who wanted to allow testing, release engine development, bring back tyres as hard as stone etc....that grid would look exactly the same, only that the differences between different cars would be 1 sec instead of 2 tenths.

or were them all at autosport forums or somewhere? :roll:

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 27 Oct 2012, 09:47

giraurd wrote:It's 2011 all over again, guys.

Now was there anyone here who wanted to allow testing, release engine development, bring back tyres as hard as stone etc....that grid would look exactly the same, only that the differences between different cars would be 1 sec instead of 2 tenths.

or were them all at autosport forums or somewhere?

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that many of the teams are now one step ahead of Pirelli in terms of the understanding of the tyres. Hence why Paul Hemberey should bring the supersofts and hards to Abu Dhabi just to see what happens.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 27 Oct 2012, 10:30

I'd avoid watching this one due to VettelWinsLol, but I know better than to look at that battle.

Instead, I'll be eagerly watching the battle between Marussia, Caterham, and HRT.

14 Hundred Hours · Post by **14 Hundred Hours** » 27 Oct 2012, 11:17

East Londoner wrote:Oh piss.

My sentiment exactly.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 27 Oct 2012, 11:27

Cynon wrote:Instead, I'll be eagerly watching the battle between Marussia, Caterham, and HRT.

Yes! That's the spirit! 8-)

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 27 Oct 2012, 11:36

Has anyone done a reverse champions for this year yet.

Pamphlet · Post by **Pamphlet** » 27 Oct 2012, 12:31

Good on you, Seb.

Post by **Ataxia** » 27 Oct 2012, 12:59

Pamphlet wrote:Good on you, Seb.

I know what else would be good on Seb...rope around his wrists and ankles.

TheBigJ · Post by **TheBigJ** » 27 Oct 2012, 13:31

Vettel is ruining the sport.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 27 Oct 2012, 13:33

TheBigJ wrote:Vettel is ruining the sport.

Naw, he's just ruining the WDC championship battle by being so dominant...

(or is it Ferrari's incompetence?)

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 27 Oct 2012, 14:45

TheBigJ wrote:Newey is ruining the sport.

Fixed.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 27 Oct 2012, 14:59

TheBigJ wrote:Politics are ruining the sport.

Fixed.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 27 Oct 2012, 15:05

TheBigJ wrote:Vettel is ruining the sport.

I wouldn't say so, there are aspects about him that some of us find annoying, but ultimately he's making the most of what is currently the best car on the grid. It's frustrating watching him being so dominant, but in comparison to other drivers on the grid, I certainly wouldn't say he's the best out there, at least not yet. He's just maximising his opportunity, just as any good driver in the best car should do.

Post by **Londoner** » 27 Oct 2012, 15:20

I think the reason why most of us can't stand Vettel is that quite a few of us on here started watching F1 during the Schumacher domination years, and we'd much rather see close-fought races and championships instead of one driver roaring into the distance on the Sunday.

Post by **Ataxia** » 27 Oct 2012, 16:01

East Londoner wrote:I think the reason why most of us can't stand Vettel is that quite a few of us on here started watching F1 during the Schumacher domination years, and we'd much rather see close-fought races and championships instead of one driver roaring into the distance on the Sunday.

I started watching in '97, but the Schumacher years are the ones I most remember.

I like variety, which is why I enjoyed the early season so much. Unfortunately, all trace of that is gone now.

Pamphlet · Post by **Pamphlet** » 27 Oct 2012, 16:01

TheBigJ wrote:Vettel is ruining the sport.

First place isn't everything.

East Londoner wrote:I think the reason why most of us can't stand Vettel is that quite a few of us on here started watching F1 during the Schumacher domination years, and we'd much rather see close-fought races and championships instead of one driver roaring into the distance on the Sunday.

Like BLN I started watching in '97, but I loved the Schumacher era. I hated the first few races of 2012 because it was clear that the tyres were faulty. Unsurprisingly the teams agree, which is why Pirelli are changing them for next year.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 27 Oct 2012, 16:17

I want to have some of what Alonso is on. Or maybe I don't want...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103800

girry · Post by **girry** » 27 Oct 2012, 17:12

First place isn't everything and I actually do like Vettel, it's just that now it seems again top 3 teams are far apart and ahead of the rest of the group; for an example, whilst the title battle was brilliant in 07(-08), McLaren-Ferrari all-over übertotal dominance is something that I always disapproved of, thus I preferred seasons like 09 where performances varied more.

TheBigJ · Post by **TheBigJ** » 27 Oct 2012, 17:24

Pamphlet wrote:
TheBigJ wrote:Vettel is ruining the sport.

First place isn't everything.

TBH I'm bored with the rejectfullness of the new teams, Sauber haven't really sparked up much since Monza and Lotus and Mercedes look drab. The Pirelli tyres have been figured out by the teams who now force their drivers to drive really carefully, and there is little to no unreliability, unless you're McLaren, as they've just become embarrassingly unprofessional.

This season started so well too. Now it's really quite average. The only thing I'm looking forward to is the ROTY award...there are so many contenders. Every single team apart from Red Bull has had at least one element that has made me go "rejectful". They all really deserve it for not exploiting Red Bull's early season weakness.

/rant

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 27 Oct 2012, 17:54

Phoenix wrote:
TheBigJ wrote:Whiney Fans are ruining the sport.

Fixed.

Truly Fixed.

{Begin Rant} Seriously, what do you people want? Since I've been watching F1 the only champion I can remember who didn't have a massive hatedom following him was Mika. What do you people want? Lets review all the "faults" of the WDC's I've heard from the masses (although not nessecarily here) since I've been a fan.....

1994: Schumi - Lucked into the Championship due to the GOAT dying at Imola.
1995: Schumi - Benetteon Cheated, he's a fraud.
1996: Hill - Only won because he had the best car and no competition, backed into the title.
1997: JV - Bad joke, only won because Schumi is a cheating bastard. (Hate has grown over time)
1998: Mika - As I said I cannot remember much hate on the Finn besides some whinning over team orders.
1999: Mika - See above
2000 Schumi - Still a cheat from '97.
2001 Schumi - Has the best car so its not "legitimate". (Hate doubled)
2002 Schumi - Used Team Orders to cheat. (Hate Tripled)
2003 Schumi - Got Michlein's tyres banned, to cheat.
2004 Schumi - The rules favot him, he screws over Rubens and oh yea they cheat (Hate maximized here).
2005 Alonso - Lucked into the title because the Macca kept failing, should have been Kimi.
2006 Alonso - Can't remember anything specfic aside from hate because he was a "whinning" Spaniard.
2007 Kimi - Only won because Alonso screwed Lewis, a poor champion because he "doesn't/didn't care".
2008 Lewis - This was spilt. Brits loved it, others hated how he "ran Alonso out of town" and "was babied" by Ronspeak.
2009 Jenson - Backed into the title because he had the best (some still say illegal) car. (I myself am sometimes guilty of this)
2010 Seb - Only won because Ferrari screwed up at Abu Dubai.
2011 Seb - Had the best car and a teammate who "isn't allowed to win". An arrogant bastard who can't overtake.
2012 ??? - If Seb wins agin see above.

Really, will there ever be a "popular" or "legitimate" champion? {End Rant}

Sorry about that, its just that I've been hearing "(Insert Driver Here) is ruining the sport" and it just bothers me that it seems like whoever wins, its not due to skill, a great team, etc. I mean I honestly wonder if we had the top 5 in the WDC separated by 1 point each, who people still moan?

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 27 Oct 2012, 18:03

Delete double post

Post by **Londoner** » 27 Oct 2012, 18:05

Wallio wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
TheBigJ wrote:Whiney Fans are ruining the sport.

Fixed.

Truly Fixed. Seriously, what do you people want? Since I've been watching F1 the only champion I can remember who didn't have a massive hatedom following him was Mika. What do you people want? Lets review all the "faults" of the WDC's I've heard from the masses (although not nessecarily here) since I've been a fan.....

2008 Lewis - This was spilt. Brits loved it, others hated how he "ran Alonso out of town" and "was babied" by Ronspeak.
2009 Jenson - Backed into the title because he had the best (some still say illegal) car. (I myself am sometimes guilty of this)

Really, will there ever be a "popular" champion?

I actually wanted Massa to win the championship that year. Just sick of Lewisteria and the bandwagoning, considering all of these so-called 'fans' went from supporting Button before 2007 to forgetting who he was.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 27 Oct 2012, 18:31

Ferrim wrote:I want to have some of what Alonso is on. Or maybe I don't want...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103800

Yeah, maybe Ferrari intends to use Massa as a first lap battering ram and just wreck Vettel out of every race from now until the end of the season. Barring that, Alonso isn't winning the title.

TheBigJ · Post by **TheBigJ** » 27 Oct 2012, 19:20

Wallio wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
TheBigJ wrote:Whiney Fans are ruining the sport.

Fixed.

Truly Fixed.

{Begin Rant} Seriously, what do you people want? Since I've been watching F1 the only champion I can remember who didn't have a massive hatedom following him was Mika. What do you people want? Lets review all the "faults" of the WDC's I've heard from the masses (although not nessecarily here) since I've been a fan.....

1994: Schumi - Lucked into the Championship due to the GOAT dying at Imola.
1995: Schumi - Benetteon Cheated, he's a fraud.
1996: Hill - Only won because he had the best car and no competition, backed into the title.
1997: JV - Bad joke, only won because Schumi is a cheating bastard. (Hate has grown over time)
1998: Mika - As I said I cannot remember much hate on the Finn besides some whinning over team orders.
1999: Mika - See above
2000 Schumi - Still a cheat from '97.
2001 Schumi - Has the best car so its not "legitimate". (Hate doubled)
2002 Schumi - Used Team Orders to cheat. (Hate Tripled)
2003 Schumi - Got Michlein's tyres banned, to cheat.
2004 Schumi - The rules favot him, he screws over Rubens and oh yea they cheat (Hate maximized here).
2005 Alonso - Lucked into the title because the Macca kept failing, should have been Kimi.
2006 Alonso - Can't remember anything specfic aside from hate because he was a "whinning" Spaniard.
2007 Kimi - Only won because Alonso screwed Lewis, a poor champion because he "doesn't/didn't care".
2008 Lewis - This was spilt. Brits loved it, others hated how he "ran Alonso out of town" and "was babied" by Ronspeak.
2009 Jenson - Backed into the title because he had the best (some still say illegal) car. (I myself am sometimes guilty of this)
2010 Seb - Only won because Ferrari screwed up at Abu Dubai.
2011 Seb - Had the best car and a teammate who "isn't allowed to win". An arrogant bastard who can't overtake.
2012 ??? - If Seb wins agin see above.

Really, will there ever be a "popular" or "legitimate" champion? {End Rant}

Sorry about that, its just that I've been hearing "(Insert Driver Here) is ruining the sport" and it just bothers me that it seems like whoever wins, its not due to skill, a great team, etc. I mean I honestly wonder if we had the top 5 in the WDC separated by 1 point each, who people still moan?

Schumi is a far more worthy champion than Seb, and it wasn't pole to victory snoozefests.

girry · Post by **girry** » 27 Oct 2012, 19:44

What did I just read? Schumi victories weren't pole to victory snoozefests?

... you can see whenever another person wasn't a victim of 2001-2002-2004.

[ot] also, from what I can remember, many ppl were also claiming Mika just had the best car and blabla.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 27 Oct 2012, 19:48

giraurd wrote:What did I just read? Schumi victories weren't pole to victory snoozefests?

... you can see whenever another person wasn't a victim of 2001-2002-2004.

[ot] also, from what I can remember, many ppl were also claiming Mika just had the best car and blabla.

BAH! See what I mean? Lol and people wonder why I drink! :lol:

TheBigJ · Post by **TheBigJ** » 27 Oct 2012, 20:22

giraurd wrote:What did I just read? Schumi victories weren't pole to victory snoozefests?

... you can see whenever another person wasn't a victim of 2001-2002-2004.

[ot] also, from what I can remember, many ppl were also claiming Mika just had the best car and blabla.

You'll have to excuse me, I am a relative newcomer to F1, but from the videos I've watched, its seems way more entertaining than the 2009-2011 and now the end of 2012 seasons.

I just think Schumi still pulled off some superb performances from difficult positions compared to Vettel. Vettel would not have won in 1994 or 2003.

Personally, Alonso is better than both of them pound for pound. Always let down by his shite cars/team principal. Should be a 5 time WC on merit : 2007 (where he was duped by Papa Ron),2010 and now 2012 where he's had an inferior car to 4 other drivers yet is still in the title race.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 27 Oct 2012, 21:23

Ferrim wrote:I want to have some of what Alonso is on. Or maybe I don't want...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103800

Thumbs up if you noticed a big error in the article. That being the Korean Grand Prix mentioned as the next race...

girry · Post by **girry** » 27 Oct 2012, 21:38

I'm not fighting over 'deserving' titles or something, Schumi was a great champ and all, but you certainly do have a totally wrong impression of the excitement level from your videos thebigj.

2003 was good, but the years around it....oh, god. Imagine: Season 2011. Vettel wins all races he won in reality too, in exactly same boring manner. Then, as opposite to reality, Vettel also somehow manages to win the races where he struggled a bit, like Shanghai and Nürburgring. At the end of the season, he starts gifting victories to his teammate a bit earlier.

... yeah, that was the very reality 2001-2002-2004.

---

[ot] Mika wasn't very allround liked personality-wise either. Significantly many ppl complained/trolled/whatever that he was too boring, his english wasn't good enough, he did this and that and his wife was there too so wrong, etc... meh.

therefore I think, allround liked champ is pretty much impossible tbf :lol:

closest I could think, maybe Webber could have achieved 'worldwide' liking in 2010 had he had a good season till the end without many mistakes.

Meatwad · Post by **Meatwad** » 27 Oct 2012, 22:01

Wallio wrote:1994: Schumi - Lucked into the Championship due to the GOAT dying at Imola.

Baa!

What does GOAT mean? I don't think this goat looks like Ayrton Senna at all! :lol:

Post by **Londoner** » 27 Oct 2012, 22:11

I'm guessing Greatest Of All Time. Stupid modern lazy people using acronyms...

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 27 Oct 2012, 22:13

Meatwad wrote:
Wallio wrote:1994: Schumi - Lucked into the Championship due to the GOAT dying at Imola.

Baa!

What does GOAT mean? I don't think this goat looks like Ayrton Senna at all!

Greatest
Of
All
Time

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 27 Oct 2012, 22:41

East Londoner wrote:I'm guessing Greatest Of All Time. Stupid modern lazy people using acronyms...

That's actually what they call Ricky Carmichael in motocross circles in the States. The number of championships and wins he has in that category is, to be fair, obscene. However, a real goat would have done a better job than he did in NASCAR trucks...

I'm getting a little sick and tired of all the bitching about legitimate championships. I do this a lot when it comes to NASCAR, but for Minardi's sake it's getting old pretty damn fast. Why is F1 Rejects' forum going ape over the WDC when there are more prestigious awards? Like Reject of the Year, Reject of the Race, and the battle between the little teams to worry about? ... Or even the future antics of Kobash, Maldolan, and RMN GRJN?

Please. :roll:

Even last year there was a thrilling battle, it just wasn't right at the front of the field and the TV cameras missed it -- but the graphics (the scoring graphics) didn't.

I went to the NASCAR race at Chicago this year and to be honest, there was an awesome battle for like 30th for the first 60 laps between Danica Patrick and F1 Reject Scott Speed, and another one between two other trashmobiles. Look further down the field, enjoy the view of the little guys and/or crap drivers in cars too good for them giving their all for a meager result.

Because that's what I thought this forum celebrates the most.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 27 Oct 2012, 22:54

Some people on here would have hated Jimmy Clark.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 27 Oct 2012, 23:07

eagleash wrote:Some people on here would have hated Guiseppe Farini.

fixed...

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 27 Oct 2012, 23:23

eagleash wrote:Some people on here would have hated Jimmy Clark.

Yeah, especially since he gave NASCAR a try, which is a mortal sin according to some people in F1 circles... :roll:

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 27 Oct 2012, 23:49

WeirdKerr wrote:
eagleash wrote:Some people on here would have hated Guiseppe Farini.

fixed...

Farina?

Cynon wrote:
eagleash wrote:Some people on here would have hated Jimmy Clark.

Yeah, especially since he gave NASCAR a try, which is a mortal sin according to some people in F1 circles...

Clark, like Moss, could drive anything....He was spectacular in the Lotus Cortina & Ford Galaxy....

Post by **mario** » 28 Oct 2012, 08:12

Pamphlet wrote:
TheBigJ wrote:Vettel is ruining the sport.

First place isn't everything.

East Londoner wrote:I think the reason why most of us can't stand Vettel is that quite a few of us on here started watching F1 during the Schumacher domination years, and we'd much rather see close-fought races and championships instead of one driver roaring into the distance on the Sunday.

Like BLN I started watching in '97, but I loved the Schumacher era. I hated the first few races of 2012 because it was clear that the tyres were faulty. Unsurprisingly the teams agree, which is why Pirelli are changing them for next year.

I wouldn't say that it was the case that the tyres were "faulty" given that the difference in construction of the tyres between 2011 and 2012 was supposed to be relatively limited - the main change was the change in profile of the tyres to stop the teams running overly aggressive camber angles (following the arguments between Pirelli and Red Bull in the Belgian GP in 2011). If anything, the changes for 2013 are, by the sounds of the latest reports from Pirelli, likely to be far greater than the changes between 2011 and 2012 (the construction is going to be altered to produce a much stiffer tyre (which will also lead to a noticeable increase in weight according to Paddy Lowe), and the profile of the tyres will also change, leading to a noticeable change in aero performance). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103511 and http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103687

If anything, the complaints from the teams seem to be directed at the quality and quantity of the information that Pirelli provided the teams with during the pre-season and testing phase (such as the effects of thermal degradation of the tyres) - Lowe, for example, mentions that Pirelli's supplied data did not correlate well with their observations during pre-season testing, whilst Hembery is indicating that Pirelli are providing information on the 2013 tyres at an earlier stage than they did with the 2012 tyres.
The other aspect that helps is that Pirelli were also, in part, hindered by the restrictions on testing - with the test car that Toyota supplied having reached the end of its useful lifespan, Pirelli were having to make do with a sub optimal test platform whilst the teams bickered over what would be the replacement test car (in the end, Pirelli made the decision without them and picked the R30). That, in part, also seems to go some way towards explaining why Pirelli were struggling to provide good quality data, although that should be slightly less of a problem this year now that they have a test car they feel behaves more similarly to the current cars.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 28 Oct 2012, 09:09

Niki Lauda telling Alan Jones how to do his job must be one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time :lol: