2012 Brazilian Grand Prix discussion thread

Frentzen127 · Post by **Frentzen127** » 26 Nov 2012, 12:46

And why Fangio is without a shadow of a doubt the best of all time.
Also because Stirling Moss says so.

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 26 Nov 2012, 13:10

James1978 wrote:And Red Bull seemed to me a very popular team in their early days (05 - 08) before they started winning.

I used to like both RBR and Vettel before they started winning, RBR because of Christian Klien whom I liked very much, but Vettel in particular. I rooted for him throughout the 2008 season, and I still remember being overjoyed at his Monza win. Thing is, after he began winning races at RBR, he seemed to gain some sort of arrogant swagger, at least to me, and that coupled with DAT FINGER kind of put me off. What really killed all sorts of affinity I had for him was Istanbul 2010, how he handled that, and now the fact that RBR is practically Team Vettel. I mean, he's a good driver, but I mean for me he gives the image of a spoiled brat being pampered by his rich family (ahem... Mr. Mateschitz, Mr. Marko, Mr. Horner, Mr. Newey). He deserves his 3 championships, definitely, but I'm not sure I'll handle any idiots I come across saying he's 'the best of all time', and I know I will come across them...

madmark1974 wrote:
But ...

Senna never won a championship for anyone who wasn't McLaren
Alonso has never won a championship for anyone who wasn't Renault

I think the point is people want to see Vettel do something spectacular or impressive without the best car. And perhaps its 'cheating', but you can't count what he did for STR. In 2009, once Brawn tailed off badly, RBR had the best car. 2010 was close, but RBR were usually just an edge ahead of the others. 2011 was just 1992-Williams-esque. And I think it's not an argument that this season RBR>Ferrari. Senna proved himself both with Toleman, Lotus, and the 92 and 93 editions of the McLaren. Alonso did well with the 09' crapbox of a Renault, in addition to this season's Ferrari. If for once Vettel is given a, well, 3rd-4th best car and can still win/get poles/be fast, I think the respect he deserves will start coming. JMO.

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 26 Nov 2012, 14:07

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104605

I'm with Force India, this Safety car was a joke. There's races in this year that had some debris in the track, but the race control didn't call the Safety Car. Race Control/Stewards decisions in this year seemed to be "randomic".

Shadaza · Post by **Shadaza** » 26 Nov 2012, 14:30

Dj_bereta wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104605

I'm with Force India, this Safety car was a joke. There's races in this year that had some debris in the track, but the race control didn't call the Safety Car. Race Control/Stewards decisions in this year seemed to be "randomic".

It did seem very artificial. The championship battle would have been effectively over if they left Hulk and Button keep that half a lap lead.

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 26 Nov 2012, 14:34

Dj_bereta wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104605

I'm with Force India, this Safety car was a joke. There's races in this year that had some debris in the track, but the race control didn't call the Safety Car. Race Control/Stewards decisions in this year seemed to be "randomic".

Agreed. A few small pieces were near the racing line, but Ive seen worse and the race has continued.

Benetton · Post by **Benetton** » 26 Nov 2012, 15:23

The safety car was certainly questionable. However, think about the consequences if someone would have hit a marshall under the yellows. Drivers were sliding wide even in the slower corners.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 26 Nov 2012, 15:35

Dj_bereta wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104605

I'm with Force India, this Safety car was a joke. There's races in this year that had some debris in the track, but the race control didn't call the Safety Car. Race Control/Stewards decisions in this year seemed to be "randomic".

That's rubbish. Have they completely forgotten how Rosberg got a puncture because of the debris? Imagine if that had happened to Vettel, or Alonso, or Hulkenberg. There was debris strewn all over the track, a safety car was the quickest and easiest way to get rid of it.

Post by **mario** » 26 Nov 2012, 19:07

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Dj_bereta wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104605

I'm with Force India, this Safety car was a joke. There's races in this year that had some debris in the track, but the race control didn't call the Safety Car. Race Control/Stewards decisions in this year seemed to be "randomic".

That's rubbish. Have they completely forgotten how Rosberg got a puncture because of the debris? Imagine if that had happened to Vettel, or Alonso, or Hulkenberg. There was debris strewn all over the track, a safety car was the quickest and easiest way to get rid of it.

I would agree that Rosberg's puncture seems to have been the tipping point for that safety car - there was a reasonable amount of debris on track, and in some locations it was very close to or even on the racing line.

Around places like Turn 4, where Rosberg appears to have picked up his puncture, the marshals would have to take the risk of venturing onto the track when drivers would be coming round that corner at a fairly high speed blind corner. Even if the cars were entering that corner at a reduced speed, it would still have been quite hazardous to those working on the circuit at the time, so I can understand why Whiting would prefer to call a safety car in those conditions.
I'm willing to wager that, had the situation been different and Hulkenberg stopped for inters, as most drivers did during that early phase, then had the opportunity to close the gap back up with that safety car, he wouldn't be calling it a joke.

I also wonder whether Fernley would have been prepared to stick his neck on the line as a marshal, rather than somebody tucked away safely on the pit wall, and gone out to collect the debris in those conditions under just a waived yellow rather than a safety car...

Row Man Gross-Gene · Post by **Row Man Gross-Gene** » 27 Nov 2012, 05:24

James1978 wrote:I'm not THAT bothered about the outcome of the championship but after a race as legendary as that it's gutting to have to wait 4 months before the next race.

Correct! What a season! The most we can really hope for as fans is that the season is exciting and the races are exciting. We got that this year and then some. If it so happens that your favorite driver wins a race or the championship, that's just gravy and you're entitled to a gloat or two. If your least favorite wins, you're entitled to a whinge or two by the same token. Just keep it within the realm of sanity if you can.

Warren Hughes · Post by **Warren Hughes** » 27 Nov 2012, 11:59

James Hunt, after the 1976 Japanese Grand Prix wrote:I feel that I deserved to win the world championship, I also feel that Niki [Lauda] deserved to win the world championship, and I just wish we could have shared it.

Oh for this kind of class and sportsmanship in modern Formula 1.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 27 Nov 2012, 12:12

Warren Hughes wrote:
James Hunt, after the 1976 Japanese Grand Prix wrote:I feel that I deserved to win the world championship, I also feel that Niki [Lauda] deserved to win the world championship, and I just wish we could have shared it.

Oh for this kind of class and sportsmanship in modern Formula 1.

In Grand Prix Manager 2, even that is possible - the game does not count tiebreakers, so all drivers with the same amount of points as the champion also get the title. I had this happen in the 2009 Mod, where Adrian Sutil and Mark Webber were co-champions at Force India (managed by me) and Red Bull, respectively.

LellaLombardi · Post by **LellaLombardi** » 27 Nov 2012, 12:39

Regarding the awful behaviour by the fans, I'm quite shocked at this as I thought Alonso and particularly Massa were well liked in Brazil. There isn't any possibility it could've been directed more at Nelson Piquet, is there? I gather he's hated in Brazil and I'm surprised he has the audacity to show his face in the paddock after Crashgate (yes it was his son, but he had a massive hand in pushing the investigation) - how awkward would it have been if he had to interview someone from Lotus?

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 27 Nov 2012, 17:08

LellaLombardi wrote:Regarding the awful behaviour by the fans, I'm quite shocked at this as I thought Alonso and particularly Massa were well liked in Brazil. There isn't any possibility it could've been directed more at Nelson Piquet, is there? I gather he's hated in Brazil and I'm surprised he has the audacity to show his face in the paddock after Crashgate (yes it was his son, but he had a massive hand in pushing the investigation) - how awkward would it have been if he had to interview someone from Lotus?

Some abuse was probably aimed at Nelson.....the dislike of him in his homeland stems from his unpleasant antipathy toward Senna.

Daxam_Stark · Post by **Daxam_Stark** » 27 Nov 2012, 17:22

eagleash wrote:
LellaLombardi wrote:Regarding the awful behaviour by the fans, I'm quite shocked at this as I thought Alonso and particularly Massa were well liked in Brazil. There isn't any possibility it could've been directed more at Nelson Piquet, is there? I gather he's hated in Brazil and I'm surprised he has the audacity to show his face in the paddock after Crashgate (yes it was his son, but he had a massive hand in pushing the investigation) - how awkward would it have been if he had to interview someone from Lotus?

Some abuse was probably aimed at Nelson.....the dislike of him in his homeland stems from his unpleasant antipathy toward Senna.

I'm sure they hate Piquet Jr. even more given what he said about Senna.

Anyway, in regards to the race, it was the best one all year IMO. Delighted that Caterham got 10th in Constructors back from Marussia. ((Probably the only one here who's happy about that. I don't hate Marussia either before anyone says anything.)) Even happier that Petrov was the one who got it. Hope he gets a ride next year((I doubt Caterham will keep him seeing as they have a trulli odd obsession with Heikki.)

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 27 Nov 2012, 17:27

Daxam_Stark wrote:
I'm sure they hate Piquet Jr. even more given what he said about Senna.

Not sure what Jr said about Ayrton but it couldn't have been very much worse than what Senior said...after all he was asked to stay away from the funeral...

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 27 Nov 2012, 17:59

LellaLombardi wrote:Regarding the awful behaviour by the fans, I'm quite shocked at this as I thought Alonso and particularly Massa were well liked in Brazil. There isn't any possibility it could've been directed more at Nelson Piquet, is there? I gather he's hated in Brazil and I'm surprised he has the audacity to show his face in the paddock after Crashgate (yes it was his son, but he had a massive hand in pushing the investigation) - how awkward would it have been if he had to interview someone from Lotus?

The Brazilian media (especially TV Globo) was the most responsible for that. Nelson didn't had a good relationship with the brazilian media in your F-1 times. When Senna started to show your talent, the focus rapidly changed and Piquet was Forgotten by fans. The Jokes that he made against Senna worsened your situation (like: "Senna run with 12 because he is half gay". In Brazil, 24 is a number used to refer to homossexuals) and the brazilian media indirect put Piquet as the villian of Senna vs Piquet feud. But in that time, Piquet wasn't too much hated. He was after the crashgate, but your son was a lot more hated than him.

This also remember some of the Piquet's joke:

Brazilian Reporter: Nelson, you will run for the win in this race?
Piquet: No, I will run for the 13th place.

"The difference between me and Mansell is: I won three titles, Mansell lose three. And my wife is beautiful, Mansell's wife is ugly."

Daxam_Stark · Post by **Daxam_Stark** » 27 Nov 2012, 18:04

eagleash wrote:
Daxam_Stark wrote:
I'm sure they hate Piquet Jr. even more given what he said about Senna.

Not sure what Jr said about Ayrton but it couldn't have been very much worse than what Senior said...after all he was asked to stay away from the funeral...

All Jr. said was “Senna had no talent in terms of the technical and mechanical." and wouldn't have won anything in modern F1 despite being very fast. So I was mistaken. Whoops.

flyerguy · Post by **flyerguy** » 27 Nov 2012, 18:26

LellaLombardi wrote:Regarding the awful behaviour by the fans, I'm quite shocked at this as I thought Alonso and particularly Massa were well liked in Brazil. There isn't any possibility it could've been directed more at Nelson Piquet, is there? I gather he's hated in Brazil and I'm surprised he has the audacity to show his face in the paddock after Crashgate (yes it was his son, but he had a massive hand in pushing the investigation) - how awkward would it have been if he had to interview someone from Lotus?

Unfortunately, no. This was building up for a while now. As Massa is in an unstable form, many started to related him to Barrichello (that has an image of a uncompetitive second driver here). It may sound weird, but many people, including part of the "general sports media", non-specialized on motorsport, blame Alonso on the Crashgate along Piquet Jr. and Briatore. There is part of the public that has a strange sense of "if it is Brazilian and it is winning, it is clearly right". Unfortunately the number of such wing is rising, if the number of different people giving support to their theories in social networks and TV is a sign. There is many people claiming that the recent "success" of Piquet Jr. on Nascar (even if moderately and on lower categories) are a sign that he was innocent and driven to err. There is a lot of vocal support to a theory that says that Briatore and Alonso conspired and Piquet Jr. was a straw-man at best.
But this turned in a mad rage when Alonso defended the Bahrain race saying that if the security measures are enough in Brazil, they are enough in Bahrain. People got offended by the comparison, and this has turned into an insane hatred against Alonso...

Currently the relation between Piquet Sr. and the general public is of love-hate. Most of time people are indifferent about him. He is well liked when you talk only about the driver. And there is some people who still talk high about him because of 86-87 and use his assault on Salazar as an antithesis to the perceived apathy of Massa and Barrichello. But people hate him when the subject is his rivalry with Senna. People clap when he talks about Mansell and frowns when he talks about Senna.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 27 Nov 2012, 19:09

Now that the envitable and unjustified Vettel-bashing has slowed, I can return to the forums. And I must say that Brazil proved my point once again: Force India has such potential. If they can get an owner who

1.) isn't a crook
2.) Actually gives a bathplug about F1 and isnt there to show off
3.) Actually spends some money

they're gonna go places. Please God get them a new owner!

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 27 Nov 2012, 19:51

To bring up the discussion about the race again, there is something that Adam Cooper has recently brought out.
According to this tweet of his, Vettel passed Vergne under yellows in lap 4!

LellaLombardi · Post by **LellaLombardi** » 27 Nov 2012, 20:48

flyerguy wrote:
LellaLombardi wrote:Regarding the awful behaviour by the fans, I'm quite shocked at this as I thought Alonso and particularly Massa were well liked in Brazil. There isn't any possibility it could've been directed more at Nelson Piquet, is there? I gather he's hated in Brazil and I'm surprised he has the audacity to show his face in the paddock after Crashgate (yes it was his son, but he had a massive hand in pushing the investigation) - how awkward would it have been if he had to interview someone from Lotus?

Unfortunately, no. This was building up for a while now. As Massa is in an unstable form, many started to related him to Barrichello (that has an image of a uncompetitive second driver here). It may sound weird, but many people, including part of the "general sports media", non-specialized on motorsport, blame Alonso on the Crashgate along Piquet Jr. and Briatore. There is part of the public that has a strange sense of "if it is Brazilian and it is winning, it is clearly right". Unfortunately the number of such wing is rising, if the number of different people giving support to their theories in social networks and TV is a sign. There is many people claiming that the recent "success" of Piquet Jr. on Nascar (even if moderately and on lower categories) are a sign that he was innocent and driven to err. There is a lot of vocal support to a theory that says that Briatore and Alonso conspired and Piquet Jr. was a straw-man at best.
But this turned in a mad rage when Alonso defended the Bahrain race saying that if the security measures are enough in Brazil, they are enough in Bahrain. People got offended by the comparison, and this has turned into an insane hatred against Alonso...

Currently the relation between Piquet Sr. and the general public is of love-hate. Most of time people are indifferent about him. He is well liked when you talk only about the driver. And there is some people who still talk high about him because of 86-87 and use his assault on Salazar as an antithesis to the perceived apathy of Massa and Barrichello. But people hate him when the subject is his rivalry with Senna. People clap when he talks about Mansell and frowns when he talks about Senna.

That's very interesting. I've personally never bought into the explanation that Alonso knew nothing of Crashgate in advance, but I'm on the fence as to the extent of his involvement. I could see how some Brazilian fans could be upset by that. But it doesn't explain the hatred of Massa, he was on the podium and drove a great race in Interlagos, the fans could not have asked any more of him. He sucked in the first half of the year but has turned things around. Do they not see this? Or is the hatred because of his accepted number two status?

I was under the impression that the Piquet family were disliked because of their perception of Brazil. Senna was such a darling because he was proud to be Brazilian at a time when people didn't feel good about their country (I'm very much going on the Senna film here), whereas Piquet was not a proud Brazilian if that makes sense.

Post by **mario** » 27 Nov 2012, 21:26

Shizuka wrote:To bring up the discussion about the race again, there is something that Adam Cooper has recently brought out.
According to this tweet of his, Vettel passed Vergne under yellows in lap 4!

It has been indicated that the author of that video may be incorrect though - others have indicated that there is a marshal waiving a green flag at a marshals post on the left hand side of the track between the flashing yellow light at Turn 3 and the marshals post with the green flashing light at Turn 4. It is very hard to see because of the advertising board in the background, the low light and the speed at which Vettel passes that post, but it appears that the green flag zone started at the second marshals post on that straight (near the end of the pit lane exit), not at the third marshals post at the end of the straight.

If that is indeed the case, Vettel's move to pass Vergne would therefore appear to have cut it fine, since he passed Vergne quite shortly after that marshals post, but occurred under green flag conditions and was therefore legal.

flyerguy · Post by **flyerguy** » 27 Nov 2012, 21:39

It is just like it was said: most people here in Brazil do not care about F1. They care only about a Brazilian in first, and nothing else. He was in third, and this was not good enough. And worst of all: he let Alonso pass. This is an inexcusable offense. Or so they judge.
Massa going better on the second half of the season only made then create some absurd conspiracy theory, where Santander, as a main sponsor, forces Ferrari to made Alonso the number 1 driver and Massa bad form was either on purpose or because he agreed with Ferrari giving a vast inferior car to him.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 28 Nov 2012, 02:45

Vettel didn't pass Kobayashi under yellow flags, he didn't pass a HRT under yellow flags, but he DID pass Jean-Eric Vergne under yellows

Make of that what you will.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 28 Nov 2012, 07:29

flyerguy wrote:It is just like it was said: most people here in Brazil do not care about F1. They care only about a Brazilian in first, and nothing else. He was in third, and this was not good enough. And worst of all: he let Alonso pass. This is an inexcusable offense. Or so they judge.
Massa going better on the second half of the season only made then create some absurd conspiracy theory, where Santander, as a main sponsor, forces Ferrari to made Alonso the number 1 driver and Massa bad form was either on purpose or because he agreed with Ferrari giving a vast inferior car to him.

I thought the Brazilians were OK with Massa giving up the win to Kimi in 2007 for team reasons though?

Post by **Nuppiz** » 28 Nov 2012, 08:12

Wizzie wrote:Vettel didn't pass Kobayashi under yellow flags, he didn't pass a HRT under yellow flags, but he DID pass Jean-Eric Vergne under yellows

Make of that what you will.

*sigh*

I doubt people would be so throughly investigating whether or not Vettel passed someone under the yellows if it wasn't for the apparent near-universal hate towards him. Okay, so the author of the video says he has no interest whether or not this would change the championship result, and he probably feels so, but the majority of comments by other users are already accusing him of cheating and would like to see Alonso as the champion instead.

And if you look into the comments further, you can see that even the pass on Vergne was legal. Case closed, stop finding some stupid excuse to strip Vettel of the title.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 28 Nov 2012, 09:13

Nuppiz wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Vettel didn't pass Kobayashi under yellow flags, he didn't pass a HRT under yellow flags, but he DID pass Jean-Eric Vergne under yellows

Make of that what you will.

*sigh*

I doubt people would be so throughly investigating whether or not Vettel passed someone under the yellows if it wasn't for the apparent near-universal hate towards him. Okay, so the author of the video says he has no interest whether or not this would change the championship result, and he probably feels so, but the majority of comments by other users are already accusing him of cheating and would like to see Alonso as the champion instead.

And if you look into the comments further, you can see that even the pass on Vergne was legal. Case closed, stop finding some stupid excuse to strip Vettel of the title.

I indeed stand corrected as I managed to miss the marshall's post right on pit exit, which presumably was waving a green flag. Which leads us to the question of what on earth are the FIA trying to achieve with the light system if all it's doing is confusing the hell out of everyone in the known universe?

Then again, we'd never be in this situation in the first place if Alonso never had that moment of sheer brain fade which took himself out at the start back in Japan

Post by **Nuppiz** » 28 Nov 2012, 11:52

Just to clarify, the previous post was not directed at anyone in particular, but rather to all those, members of this site or not, who still feel that Vettel cheated at Brazil. It came out a bit harsher than I meant...

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 28 Nov 2012, 12:48

There's no way I'd want the championship result changed due to post-race investigations, ever. I'm a Hamilton fan (I'm asking for trouble there aren't I?) but I REALLY didn't want the BMW-Saubers DQ'd from Brazil 2007 which would have given him the championship. Kimi won it on the day and to take it away from him would be totally unreasonable.

Bourdais getting penalised after Japan 2008 to give Massa an extra point was different though as it wasn't the last race, but the championship COULD have hinged on that.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 28 Nov 2012, 13:33

Nuppiz wrote:Just to clarify, the previous post was not directed at anyone in particular, but rather to all those, members of this site or not, who still feel that Vettel cheated at Brazil. It came out a bit harsher than I meant...

I didn't think of that, I just brought up the conversation after seeing this tweet.

FMecha · Post by **FMecha** » 28 Nov 2012, 14:56

Generally, as a Vettel fan, I can't stand the Vettel hatedom. At all. :evil:

OT: Wizzie, have checked out the word association thread yet?

flyerguy · Post by **flyerguy** » 28 Nov 2012, 15:19

James1978 wrote: I thought the Brazilians were OK with Massa giving up the win to Kimi in 2007 for team reasons though?

Only because the position change was made on the pit stops. Yes, it sounds silly, but this made a whole lot of difference.

Post by **Londoner** » 28 Nov 2012, 15:30

Here's a fan video of the moment where the Reverend reverted into his alter-ego, Crashtor Faildonado. Goes to show how godawful the TV director was, because it was a pretty big shunt. Watch from 1:30 onwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=awronW8LZ4Q#!

Benetton · Post by **Benetton** » 28 Nov 2012, 16:04

The light flag system needs to be improved since it has stirred up so much unneeded controversy!

I'm also glad that RoGro walked to the pit without any injury since that was a big off (something along 6 G at least). Once he spun outside the track it seemed to only gain speed from the wet tarmac then slow down.

whatisdeletrazdoing · Post by **whatisdeletrazdoing** » 28 Nov 2012, 16:40

Benetton wrote:The light flag system needs to be improved since it has stirred up so much unneeded controversy!

I can't agree more! I think there should also be some sort of computer system that can track the exact location and position of each car that would know immediately if a driver passes illegally or not. That would be much more reliable than trying to look a TV feed and onboard shots. Butnthen again, I don't know how difficult that would be to develop. If F1 teams can develop DDRS and KERS and Coanda exhausts, surely someone in F1 can make a program.

Post by **mario** » 28 Nov 2012, 19:19

whatisdeletrazdoing wrote:
Benetton wrote:The light flag system needs to be improved since it has stirred up so much unneeded controversy!

I can't agree more! I think there should also be some sort of computer system that can track the exact location and position of each car that would know immediately if a driver passes illegally or not. That would be much more reliable than trying to look a TV feed and onboard shots. Butnthen again, I don't know how difficult that would be to develop. If F1 teams can develop DDRS and KERS and Coanda exhausts, surely someone in F1 can make a program.

I believe that the FIA has already integrated GPS into the standard electronic devices on the cars - they drew on GPS data back in 2010 when trying to determine whether Hamilton passed the safety car in the European GP.
That said, I believe that there is a slight issue with the accuracy of the commercial systems on sale today that the FIA uses - in the case of Hamilton passing the safety car in the European GP, for example, they had to revert back to camera footage because the margin for error with the GPS measurements were larger than the distance by which Hamilton was eventually judged to have passed the safety car by. We saw that some of the passes Vettel made were marginal - it could well be that a GPS based system would give a false positive for passing under a yellow flag in those instances, so that situation would have to be accounted for.

GwilymJJames · Post by **GwilymJJames** » 28 Nov 2012, 21:58

In the interests of balance, I provide two takes on a breaking news story.

Number one...

Italian crybabies desperately clutch at straws to get world championship that they lost by virtue of having less points.

Number two...

Ferrari may have evidence that would require the FIA to give them the world championship that was stolen from them by a cheating, scummy, drinks company.

Aerond · Post by **Aerond** » 28 Nov 2012, 22:07

Spanish press have been raising the issue for the past few days. I can't stop laughing at so much crying!

IMO, If Ferrari protested, they'd turn into public enemy #1

LellaLombardi · Post by **LellaLombardi** » 28 Nov 2012, 22:10

If this does proceed with Alonso's blessing - and judging from his Twitter comments he is all for it - then it would destroy any respect I had for him or Ferrari. Just as I was starting to warm to him slightly this year too. It's called being a sore loser.

It is the ultimate in steward rejectdom that this was not investigated and resolved at the time. It would be extremely mean to take the title away from Vettel now. If they cannot establish whether the green flag was being waved then they surely have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

S951 · Post by **S951** » 28 Nov 2012, 22:23

this has just come up on tweetor in last 30min retweets muchos now