Ponderbox

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 14 Dec 2012, 10:43

eurobrun wrote:Maldonado had absolutely no consistency this year, he seemed to switch from epic to slow and derpy at the toss of a coin

1000th post in this thread

He just switched from epic to derpy, he was almost always at least fast.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 14 Dec 2012, 11:45

eurobrun wrote:I honestly think that if Senna actually learned how to qualify well this year he could have unrejectified himself

That's not the whole problem with Senna though - if you look at Canada, he started one place ahead of Maldonado after Maldonado crashed in Q2. However, Maldonado was able to rally and was running around 8th-10th before spinning out. Whereas Senna was precisely nowhere the whole race.

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 14 Dec 2012, 11:54

But Canada was probably one of his worst races (if not the worst) of the season. So I wouldn't consider it indicative of his whole year

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 14 Dec 2012, 12:14

Just as added info for the discussion, Senna got points with good drives in Malaysia and China. In Europe he inherited tenth because Maldonado got a 20 second penalty after the race for unsafely rejoining the track. In Britain he managed 9th by avoiding troubles while others weren't so lucky. Hungary was another good drive. 10th at Italy was due to attrition. In India it was merited. Abu Dhabi was attrition again. In USA he was in good position to be able to capitalize on Mark Webber's DNF. He finished the season 6-6 on races with Maldonado on races despite 15-5, qualifying wise and in which 3 of those 5 was due to Maldonado being hit with some kind of penalty.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 14 Dec 2012, 12:18

DanielPT wrote:Just as added info for the discussion, Senna got points with good drives in Malaysia and China. In Europe he inherited tenth because Maldonado got a 20 second penalty after the race for unsafely rejoining the track. In Britain he managed 9th by avoiding troubles while others weren't so lucky. Hungary was another good drive. 10th at Italy was due to attrition. In India it was merited. Abu Dhabi was attrition again. In USA he was in good position to be able to capitalize on Mark Webber's DNF. He finished the season 6-6 on races with Maldonado on races despite 15-5, qualifying wise and in which 3 of those 5 was due to Maldonado being hit with some kind of penalty.

Problem is, if he drove like he did in Malaysia or Hungary for the entire season, Senna would have been by all rights miles ahead of Maldonado. But, either through inability or unwillingness, he didn't, so he isn't.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 14 Dec 2012, 14:07

DanielPT wrote:In Europe he inherited tenth because Maldonado got a 20 second penalty after the race for unsafely rejoining the track.

That's pretty damning for Senna IMO; another race where Maldonado was on for major points before he screwed it all up. Sure, Senna started only 14th, but he was 2 places behind Schumacher on the grid, who went on to take a podium. But in Maldonado's hands, the Williams was more than a match for the Mercedes. Senna should've, by rights, been around about where Schumacher was, but he was only able to salvage a point after Maldonado's time penalty, because he moved to defend from Kobayashi without knowing that he was already sending one up the inside.

Also, I should point out that the 2 times Senna was ahead of Maldonado on the grid without Maldonado having a penalty was down to a KERS failure in Bahrain and Maldonado's crash in Canada. Maldonado was also right on Senna's tail at the end of the Italian GP, despite starting 9 places behind him and making 1 more stop.

Post by **mario** » 14 Dec 2012, 20:30

Given the recent comments that have been in the press recently, I am surprised how cocky both drivers at McLaren have been in recent weeks.

We have seen Button talking up how he is looking forward - indeed, expecting - to lead McLaren, drive forward development of the car and build the team around himself, whilst Perez has been similarly bold in talking up his expectations of competing for the WDC immediately and expects to be able to match or surpass Button (incidentally, now that I've seen someone point it out, it is a little striking that Perez hasn't really referred directly to Button in his comments about McLaren for some time now, particularly when talking about his chances for 2013).

Now, I know that both drivers are expecting 2013 to be a make or break year for both of them - Button is now in a position where, thanks to his experience and the record he has of winning races, he will expect to be looked to when it comes to strategy issues and development feedback, whilst Perez will, no doubt, be keen to show off his talents to the world in a car that should be up towards the front of the field and to dispel the criticism that he attracted at the tail end of 2012. Still, both drivers do seem to be bragging slightly in the press, almost as if they are playing a few mind games well before the next season has started.

On another aside, Autosport have carried out their latest private post season survey of the team bosses to gauge their view of how the drivers performed in 2012, which revealed that Alonso was, by a record margin margin, rated as the highest performing driver in 2012. Whilst that is perhaps somewhat predictable, some of the scores further down the list make for interesting reading - Hulkenberg's performance at the tail end of this year means that he has been rated 7th, whilst Massa made it into 10th place despite the poor start to the season he had (and ended up being rated only marginally worse than either Rosberg or Perez).

AUTOSPORT asked each of F1's current team principals to pick their top ten drivers for the season, with points being awarded under the current scoring system of 25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1

The individual votes are kept secret so team bosses can give a more honest appraisal of their views.

Alonso was a clear winner this year, securing the biggest winning margin in the five years since AUTOSPORT began the top 10.

AUTOSPORT team principals' top 10:

1. Fernando Alonso: 269
2. Sebastian Vettel: 198
3. Lewis Hamilton: 177
4. Kimi Raikkonen : 176
5. Jenson Button: 104
6. Mark Webber: 66
7. Nico Hulkenberg: 50
8. Nico Rosberg: 30
9. Sergio Perez: 30
10. Felipe Massa: 27

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104812

Post by **Londoner** » 16 Dec 2012, 21:44

I've been pondering, Takuma Sato drove like a tool in 2005, causing several needless accidents, rather like Grosjean this season. Did Sato ever get called out about his driving by the media and other drivers like poor Romain did? :roll:

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 16 Dec 2012, 21:45

East Londoner wrote:I've been pondering, Takuma Sato drove like a tool in 2005, causing several needless accidents, rather like Grosjean this season. Did Sato ever get called out about his driving by the media and other drivers like poor Romain did?

No, but he got Reject of the Year. Something I doubt Grosjean will get.

Row Man Gross-Gene · Post by **Row Man Gross-Gene** » 16 Dec 2012, 22:15

redbulljack14 wrote:
East Londoner wrote:I've been pondering, Takuma Sato drove like a tool in 2005, causing several needless accidents, rather like Grosjean this season. Did Sato ever get called out about his driving by the media and other drivers like poor Romain did?

No, but he got Reject of the Year. Something I doubt Grosjean will get.

Was Sato really as quick as Romain? Because Grosjean looks like a future race-winner and maybe championship contender to me.

LellaLombardi · Post by **LellaLombardi** » 16 Dec 2012, 22:36

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
East Londoner wrote:I've been pondering, Takuma Sato drove like a tool in 2005, causing several needless accidents, rather like Grosjean this season. Did Sato ever get called out about his driving by the media and other drivers like poor Romain did?

No, but he got Reject of the Year. Something I doubt Grosjean will get.

Was Sato really as quick as Romain? Because Grosjean looks like a future race-winner and maybe championship contender to me.

I think Grosjean got such a drubbing for two reasons - one is that he had an excellent car so was expected to deliver some reasonable results, plus he had a second chance in F1 and was under pressure to justify that. There wasn't anything like that sort of expectation on Sato

Row Man Gross-Gene · Post by **Row Man Gross-Gene** » 16 Dec 2012, 22:40

Just read that Grosjean won the race of champions! As I'm from the US, I don't really have a concept of what the importance of the ROC is. Anybody care to expound on the subject?

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 16 Dec 2012, 22:42

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:Just read that Grosjean won the race of champions! As I'm from the US, I don't really have a concept of what the importance of the ROC is. Anybody care to expound on the subject?

It's like a novelty trophy given out after you've been karting for a day. You'll have the pride of being better than your mates for a day or two, then you'll just go back to the way things were.

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 16 Dec 2012, 22:49

East Londoner wrote:I've been pondering, Takuma Sato drove like a tool in 2005, causing several needless accidents, rather like Grosjean this season. Did Sato ever get called out about his driving by the media and other drivers like poor Romain did?

No, Sato was just driving like most other Japanese drivers who appeared over the years. You don't expect from a Frenchman, but we've seen enough Japanese drivers in the different series to know that they make extremely aggressive moves. Grosjean also had a very competitive car. Sato due to the lack of success Japanese drivers (Thank you, Aguri Suzuki and King Hiro Matsushita) have had outside of Japan had little to no expectations to be great.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 16 Dec 2012, 22:51

redbulljack14 wrote:
East Londoner wrote:I've been pondering, Takuma Sato drove like a tool in 2005, causing several needless accidents, rather like Grosjean this season. Did Sato ever get called out about his driving by the media and other drivers like poor Romain did?

No, but he got Reject of the Year. Something I doubt Grosjean will get.

He also received a well-placed slap on the visor by good, old MS.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 18 Dec 2012, 23:34

Do you say Febuary or February?

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 18 Dec 2012, 23:55

Jocke1 wrote:Do you say Febuary or February?

Pronounced Febuary, spelt February.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 19 Dec 2012, 00:09

redbulljack14 wrote:
Jocke1 wrote:Do you say Febuary or February?

Pronounced Febuary, spelt February.

Yeah, that's how I say it, too.
And that's why I feel it sounds so weird when someone pronounces it the latter, February.
I heard this terrible song on the radio today:
http://youtu.be/VgVNx3Di0xU

And she sings 'February' in the chorus at 0:55. It's just wrong.

_______________________________________________________

Off-topic:

Has anyone else here heard about this project?
A day in the world, photo project:
http://www.aday.org

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 20 Dec 2012, 15:19

I was thinking that it would be ironic if McLaren managed to iron out their issues and actually go all the way with one of their drivers next season and precisely after Hamilton decided to leave. In the case of being Button that lucky driver, this would also send our esteemed forumite Klon into a rampage!

Row Man Gross-Gene · Post by **Row Man Gross-Gene** » 20 Dec 2012, 17:49

DanielPT wrote:I was thinking that it would be ironic if McLaren managed to iron out their issues and actually go all the way with one of their drivers next season and precisely after Hamilton decided to leave. In the case of being Button that lucky driver, this would also send our esteemed forumite Klon into a rampage!

No, it would just confirm that Button needs an absolutely perfect car, strategy, and pitwork to have a chance! It would make him supremely happy!

Post by **mario** » 20 Dec 2012, 18:09

DanielPT wrote:I was thinking that it would be ironic if McLaren managed to iron out their issues and actually go all the way with one of their drivers next season and precisely after Hamilton decided to leave. In the case of being Button that lucky driver, this would also send our esteemed forumite Klon into a rampage!

It would be rather ironic if that happened, and it is also true that Klon would not be best pleased about such a turn of events either - that said, I am not entirely sure that we will see such a turn of events happen given McLaren cannot seem to maintain a consistent run of form across a season in recent years.

In theory, I imagine that the team will have the luxury of being able to evolve their current car into next seasons car for the first time in several years (given the large changes we saw between their 2010, 2011 and 2012 challengers), something that Red Bull have had the relative luxury of doing. They should also, by rights, have the ability and resources to sort out their reliability ahead of 2013 - reliability cost them dearly in 2012 - and we have seen a few hints of other potential avenues of development for 2013 (passively switched aero devices, such as Red Bull used towards the tail end of 2012) that McLaren should also have the resources to exploit.

Yet, despite all of that, there is still something that makes me think that McLaren will be competitive and yet somehow contrive to throw things away again...

Post by **Ataxia** » 20 Dec 2012, 20:29

mario wrote:
DanielPT wrote:I was thinking that it would be ironic if McLaren managed to iron out their issues and actually go all the way with one of their drivers next season and precisely after Hamilton decided to leave. In the case of being Button that lucky driver, this would also send our esteemed forumite Klon into a rampage!

It would be rather ironic if that happened, and it is also true that Klon would not be best pleased about such a turn of events either - that said, I am not entirely sure that we will see such a turn of events happen given McLaren cannot seem to maintain a consistent run of form across a season in recent years.

In theory, I imagine that the team will have the luxury of being able to evolve their current car into next seasons car for the first time in several years (given the large changes we saw between their 2010, 2011 and 2012 challengers), something that Red Bull have had the relative luxury of doing. They should also, by rights, have the ability and resources to sort out their reliability ahead of 2013 - reliability cost them dearly in 2012 - and we have seen a few hints of other potential avenues of development for 2013 (passively switched aero devices, such as Red Bull used towards the tail end of 2012) that McLaren should also have the resources to exploit.

Yet, despite all of that, there is still something that makes me think that McLaren will be competitive and yet somehow contrive to throw things away again...

I was flicking through my Haynes F1 Season Reviews and was quickly reminded that Button began 2010 very well indeed. If he can start like that, with near 2011 levels of consistency at the end he could well have a genuine crack at the championship. We shall see...

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 20 Dec 2012, 22:33

Who has been the oldest driver in a 'young driver test', and how old?

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 21 Dec 2012, 06:11

Jocke1 wrote:Who has been the oldest driver in a 'young driver test', and how old?

Gary Paffett would be my guess, he was over 30 when he tested the McLaren this year.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 21 Dec 2012, 10:20

I think you're right, it is Gary Paffett, who is a few months older than Nicolas Prost.

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 26 Dec 2012, 23:24

I would be very surprised if there isn't a fair bit of AON branding on next years Marussia

Post by **mario** » 27 Dec 2012, 09:39

eurobrun wrote:I would be very surprised if there isn't a fair bit of AON branding on next years Marussia

Chilton has claimed that he is bringing in third party sponsorship rather than AON backing (although I would imagine that the connections his father has within the business would help with that), so it is possible that the AON name might not appear on the cars next year.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 27 Dec 2012, 13:34

mario wrote:
eurobrun wrote:I would be very surprised if there isn't a fair bit of AON branding on next years Marussia

Chilton has claimed that he is bringing in third party sponsorship rather than AON backing (although I would imagine that the connections his father has within the business would help with that), so it is possible that the AON name might not appear on the cars next year.

I think it almost certainly will. I'm pretty sure they ran with AON branding during the young drivers test when he was in the car. I honestly can't see where any third party sponsorship would come from for a British driver, so whilst he might have a bit, I'll bet the majority will be AON money.

Post by **mario** » 27 Dec 2012, 14:49

AndreaModa wrote:
mario wrote:
eurobrun wrote:I would be very surprised if there isn't a fair bit of AON branding on next years Marussia

Chilton has claimed that he is bringing in third party sponsorship rather than AON backing (although I would imagine that the connections his father has within the business would help with that), so it is possible that the AON name might not appear on the cars next year.

I think it almost certainly will. I'm pretty sure they ran with AON branding during the young drivers test when he was in the car. I honestly can't see where any third party sponsorship would come from for a British driver, so whilst he might have a bit, I'll bet the majority will be AON money.

I guess that we will just have to wait and see what happens when Marussia launch the car next year - it may be that Chilton is relying on AON funding, or has worked his father's connections within the insurance industry to secure funding from other sources, but equally he may have found some other source of support (which is what he seems to be claiming).

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 27 Dec 2012, 17:47

Why was the Toro Rosso STR4 so crap when it was just a copy of the successful Red Bull RB5 with an engine change?

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 27 Dec 2012, 18:15

darkapprentice77 wrote:Why was the Toro Rosso STR4 so crap when it was just a copy of the successful Red Bull RB5 with an engine change?

Probably because the car was designed around the Renault engine rather than the Ferrari, and the fact STR's resources were far lesser than those of RBR - remember they got all the upgrades the RB5 chassis received some races later than the parent team. Also, having a rookie driver and another one who couldn't get a feel for F1 cars for dear life and was later replaced by another rookie didn't help matters.

Post by **mario** » 27 Dec 2012, 19:17

Phoenix wrote:
darkapprentice77 wrote:Why was the Toro Rosso STR4 so crap when it was just a copy of the successful Red Bull RB5 with an engine change?

Probably because the car was designed around the Renault engine rather than the Ferrari, and the fact STR's resources were far lesser than those of RBR - remember they got all the upgrades the RB5 chassis received some races later than the parent team. Also, having a rookie driver and another one who couldn't get a feel for F1 cars for dear life and was later replaced by another rookie didn't help matters.

The Ferrari engine did reportedly force a few compromises onto Toro Rosso - I understand that the cooling requirements for the Ferrari engine were (and still are) slightly higher than that of the Renault engine, and there were a few problems with the packaging of some ancillary components (mainly related to the oil tank and oil pump systems, as they are arranged slightly differently on Ferrari's engine compared to Renault).
Mind you, the bigger problem was the delay in upgrades - I believe that some of the upgrades were held back by as many as five races (i.e. Toro Rosso only received the upgraded part five races after the parent team), and that really hurt their chances of improving their results.

Post by **Londoner** » 28 Dec 2012, 22:44

I was looking through some of the driver profiles, and I noticed that a good number of our favourite 1990s Rejects are about to reach their half-century in 2013.

Jean-Marc Gounon (1st January 1963)
Fabrizio Barbazza (4th April 1963)
Paul Belmondo (23rd April 1963)
Taki Inoue (5th September 1963)
Jean-Denis Deletraz (1st October 1963)

It sure seems like an eternity since these young men, in their late 20s/early 30s delivered us moments of reject gold. I'm sure all of us will wish them a happy 50th when the day comes.

2900th post.

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 29 Dec 2012, 11:59

And there I was thinking Fab Fab had hit 50 already...

On the other (non-reject) hand, in August there'll be the 60th anniversary of a droning monotone Brummie who was quite handy with a Williams, and occasionally with a Ferrari, when it didn't self-destruct.

pasta_maldonado · Post by **pasta_maldonado** » 29 Dec 2012, 15:20

With many rookie drivers, existing drivers, and teams complaining about limited testing and lack of experience for rookies, how about implementing and idea from pi's alternate F1 championship? Every team can each choose 3 races to field 3 cars, but that seat can only be taken by a driver who is either a rookie, has less than 5 races experience in F1, or did not race the previous season. Of course, 3rd car drives would not count towards a drivers maximum experience, nor would they count for constructor points, but 3rd drivers would be able to score points.

For me, this has several advantages. New rookie drivers, or people like Sutil who have been out of the loop, can get some actual race experience. The teams can asses the performance and skills of their new drivers in a race situation. It would spice things up championship wise, with 3rd drivers at the bigger teams competing for the points alongside championship contenders. Also, it would add a bit of spectacle - not that F1 needs it, of course, but it would be interesting to see what these drivers could do in a race/in competitive cars.

Imagine Red Bull fielding Antonio Felix da Costa in a 3rd car and he beats Vettel? Now that would eb interesting.

Thoughts?

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 29 Dec 2012, 15:37

3 car teams are always a bad idea, since the only teams who would have a chance of running a third car are the rich teams.(Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Mercedes, maybe Lotus) You would not see someone like Marussia employ someone in a third car. Also, with more Ferraris, Red Bulls, etc, there is now even less of a chance for the other teams to score points, assuming that any third cars that finish in points positions would cancel each other out. (i.e. Like in the 1984 Italian GP)

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 29 Dec 2012, 15:43

Or they could reintroduce non-championship F1 races...

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 29 Dec 2012, 15:53

JeremyMcClean wrote:3 car teams are always a bad idea, since the only teams who would have a chance of running a third car are the rich teams.(Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Mercedes, maybe Lotus) You would not see someone like Marussia employ someone in a third car. Also, with more Ferraris, Red Bulls, etc, there is now even less of a chance for the other teams to score points, assuming that any third cars that finish in points positions would cancel each other out. (i.e. Like in the 1984 Italian GP)

F3RWRS SuperPrix rules > third cars ineligible for points

Post by **mario** » 29 Dec 2012, 18:25

darkapprentice77 wrote:Or they could reintroduce non-championship F1 races...

The calendar is already fairly packed as it is with races that do count towards the WDC and WCC - given the lead times to manufacturing new components, not to mention the logistical challenges that would be associated with it, ranging from fatigued personnel to component wear (either you'd end up having to stretch component lives even further or you'd have to have separate engines, transmissions etc. for the non championship races), you'd have to offer the teams something quite attractive in order to participate in those races.

As it is, we have had the last race of the 2012 season on Nov 25th, and the first race of 2013 will be on the 17th March - if you take into consideration that scruitineering normally takes place on the Thursday before the first race (which'd be the 14th March), and that normally the teams dispatch their equipment one to two weeks in advance of the first race, that would mean that you would effectively be restricted to December 2012, plus January and February of 2013, if you wanted to arrange a non championship race. It may be logistically possible, but it'd be cutting things fairly fine - particularly now that a car cannot participate in a test, let alone race, if the crash tests have not been completed first (as things stand, only Sauber, Mercedes and Ferrari appear to have confirmed that they've passed their crash tests).

As always, large quantities of cold, hard cash might work, but would the promoter be prepared to pay the same sort of rate for an event which won't have the same prestige, and which may have the same draw for the public? What happens if a team, or multiple teams, simply don't bother competing? It was fairly common for teams to skip some non championship races, and could you force the teams to compete in such a situation if there isn't the same attraction for them?

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 29 Dec 2012, 20:55

I would actually prefer few Monday test sessions during the season. Should be easily doable when there's at least two weeks between races and the race is at permanent circuit. Probably 5 that kind of sessions. One during early flyaways (Sepang or Bahrain), three in European season (maybe Barcelona, Germany and Monza) and then one in late season (probably Abu Dhabi). One car per team, only drivers who didn't participate any session during the weekend are allowed.