Ponderbox

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 07 Jan 2013, 21:43

redbulljack14 wrote:I know it's said on this site that Francois Hesnault was the original tester of the onboard camera in 1985, but how come there are onboard videos from before then such as this?

Ummm, 1966?

Post by **Nuppiz** » 07 Jan 2013, 21:59

redbulljack14 wrote:I know it's said on this site that Francois Hesnault was the original tester of the onboard camera in 1985, but how come there are onboard videos from before then such as this?

Or like this.
There have been onboard cameras since the 1950s (you can also find one from Fangio in 1957). But all previous tests were done during testing or exhibition runs, while Hesnault's was different as it was used during a Grand Prix race and used in the live broadcast.

Zetec · Post by **Zetec** » 08 Jan 2013, 13:49

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105018

In other words: Mark you're shite, and you still have a seat just because it's Vettel who wins the WC anyway and you're no threat to him.

I sometimes just feel sorry for all the people working for Marko.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 08 Jan 2013, 16:24

Zetec wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105018

In other words: Mark you're shite, and you still have a seat just because it's Vettel who wins the WC anyway and you're no threat to him.

The problem is: he's 100 per-cent correct: Mark Webber is a choker and victim to the fact that his team mate is just a much better driver. Webber had one very good shot at the championship in 2010 and he blew it. He has no excuses at all for this, it was him failing to get the job done. With how good the 2011 Red Bull was, Webber only had to beat one guy - and that guy smashed him like he's an egg on his way to become an omelette. 2012 he had a good start and even promts a certain Australian writer to write an article about his championship chances. What happens? He drops of the face of the earth for the rest of the season.

Hate on Marko all you want, but he friggin' nailed it there.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 08 Jan 2013, 16:46

Klon wrote:Hate on Marko all you want, but he friggin' nailed it there.

Unlike in here, where he was completely on the wrong. Alonso lost the championship not because too much politics, Marko, but because he had a very inferior car. That is quite simple logic. All the rest is publicocrap.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 08 Jan 2013, 16:54

DanielPT wrote:Unlike in here, where he was completely on the wrong. Alonso lost the championship not because too much politics, Marko, but because he had a very inferior car. That is quite simple logic. All the rest is publicocrap.

"Very" inferior is, however, wrong as well. I will even go as far as to claim that the term "inferior" is also at best technically right. Ever since the Mugello tests, the Ferrari was never anything but the third-fastest car on the grid (occasionally sharing said third best spot with Lotus) as Felipe Massa's late-season outburst of seemingly lost ability showed. Sometimes (taking Silverstone race pace as one example) it was even as good as the Red Bull, so while I wouldn't even remotely agreeing that Alonso lost the title on politics saying that he lost it only because he had to fight against "his oh-so weak car", as you seem to imply, is melodramatic and incorrect as well. Two wrongs do not make a right there, I guess.

Edit: why the heck am I defending Helmut Marko here? Is F1 deprivation doing so horrible things with my mind? Help! :lol:

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 08 Jan 2013, 17:30

Klon wrote:"Very" inferior is, however, wrong as well. I will even go as far as to claim that the term "inferior" is also at best technically right. Ever since the Mugello tests, the Ferrari was never anything but the third-fastest car on the grid (occasionally sharing said third best spot with Lotus) as Felipe Massa's late-season outburst of seemingly lost ability showed.Sometimes (taking Silverstone race pace as one example) it was even as good as the Red Bull, so while I wouldn't even remotely agreeing that Alonso lost the title on politics saying that he lost it only because he had to fight against "his oh-so weak car", as you seem to imply, is melodramatic and incorrect as well. Two wrongs do not make a right there, I guess.

Edit: why the heck am I defending Helmut Marko here? Is F1 deprivation doing so horrible things with my mind? Help!

Well, for one or two races it was on par with Red Bull. This is within 20 races. As for the rest of them, well, the results and times speak for themselves. You see, in F1, you can talk a lot and engage in all the sort of political shenanigans but, in the end, if your car is not fast enough, it was all in vain. At most, it only works against your team-mate. Massa's pace, although better in the second half, still showed that the car was an handful and that it would be hard for Alonso to grab those podiums that he needed. That, in F1 terms, is like trying to win Dakar with a moped. You see, Vettel had the fastest car and, if we talk about very expectable and normal circumstances, Alonso would usually find in between 4 to 6 cars ahead of him come race day. If McLaren hadn't got their challenge horribly wrong, Alonso would have never entered the last two races in contention. Sure, luck played most part but had Alonso a car like the 2007 Ferrari on his hands (in relative terms) and he would have certainly won this year's WDC (and yes I am saying again that back in 2007, the Ferrari was about half a second faster than the McLaren but it happened to being McLaren the ones with the superior drivers). All in all, you can't deny Alonso had an inferior car. I only used the word very to emphasise my opinion. The rest is you suffering from F1 deprivation.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 08 Jan 2013, 18:21

Webber will still always be more likeable than Vettel.

Zetec · Post by **Zetec** » 08 Jan 2013, 20:19

Klon wrote:
Zetec wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105018

In other words: Mark you're shite, and you still have a seat just because it's Vettel who wins the WC anyway and you're no threat to him.

The problem is: he's 100 per-cent correct: Mark Webber is a choker and victim to the fact that his team mate is just a much better driver. Webber had one very good shot at the championship in 2010 and he blew it. He has no excuses at all for this, it was him failing to get the job done. With how good the 2011 Red Bull was, Webber only had to beat one guy - and that guy smashed him like he's an egg on his way to become an omelette. 2012 he had a good start and even promts a certain Australian writer to write an article about his championship chances. What happens? He drops of the face of the earth for the rest of the season.

Hate on Marko all you want, but he friggin' nailed it there.

Of course he's correct. But that's not the way he should talk about own drivers in the media. Driver with similar results and distance compared to their teammate are: Massa, Grosjean, Schumacher, di Resta and other ones as well if you look at the points. Has one of the teams of these guys talked bad about them in the media? No, because that is not the way you handle your drivers or staff. It's all about motivation. How would you feel, if one of your bosses would tell to someone else, that you're "crap" compared to one of your fellow employee?

Post by **mario** » 09 Jan 2013, 18:17

Zetec wrote:
Klon wrote:
Zetec wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105018

In other words: Mark you're shite, and you still have a seat just because it's Vettel who wins the WC anyway and you're no threat to him.

The problem is: he's 100 per-cent correct: Mark Webber is a choker and victim to the fact that his team mate is just a much better driver. Webber had one very good shot at the championship in 2010 and he blew it. He has no excuses at all for this, it was him failing to get the job done. With how good the 2011 Red Bull was, Webber only had to beat one guy - and that guy smashed him like he's an egg on his way to become an omelette. 2012 he had a good start and even promts a certain Australian writer to write an article about his championship chances. What happens? He drops of the face of the earth for the rest of the season.

Hate on Marko all you want, but he friggin' nailed it there.

Of course he's correct. But that's not the way he should talk about own drivers in the media. Driver with similar results and distance compared to their teammate are: Massa, Grosjean, Schumacher, di Resta and other ones as well if you look at the points. Has one of the teams of these guys talked bad about them in the media? No, because that is not the way you handle your drivers or staff. It's all about motivation. How would you feel, if one of your bosses would tell to someone else, that you're "crap" compared to one of your fellow employee?

I would also agree that, whilst Marko does have a point about Webber being unable to maintain a consistent run of form across a season and sometimes buckling under pressure, the way in which he is handling it is very clumsy and likely to do more damage to Webber's confidence and form than good.

Moreover, it does seem to show that the attitude of the management in Red Bull is quite similar to that of Toro Rosso, in that the relationship between the team and their driver seems seems somewhat remote. Marko is quick to criticise Webber, but he doesn't seem interested in understanding the root cause of Mark's downturns in form in 2010 and 2011, almost as if the team are simply handing the car over to Webber and expecting him to sort out his problems by himself.
It's an attitude that is a little reminiscent of how Williams ran things back in its glory days, or Chapman in the early 1960's (where he would specify the set up and instruct the driver to work around it) - an attitude that could come back to bite them pretty hard in the future.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 13 Jan 2013, 02:32

I've just thought...

The 1980 Spanish GP was a great result for Ford, a 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-22 Finish by Cosworth DFV engined cars.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 13 Jan 2013, 04:44

Something's just occurred to me.

The Toyota V10 was always regarded as one of the more powerful engines on the grid during its time. And yet, the V8 engine they produced to follow it up ended up being noticeably underpowered compared to everyone else. How did they manage to get it so wrong?

Post by **mario** » 13 Jan 2013, 08:48

Wizzie wrote:Something's just occurred to me.

The Toyota V10 was always regarded as one of the more powerful engines on the grid during its time. And yet, the V8 engine they produced to follow it up ended up being noticeably underpowered compared to everyone else. How did they manage to get it so wrong?

Honda had a similar fall from grace too when the switch from the V10's to V8's occurred - the last generation of Honda's V10's were fairly competitive too in terms of power output, but their V8 engine was, towards the end of the time they pulled out, lagging behind somewhat.

What is possible is that both of those outfits were stung by some of the rule changes over the lifespan of the V8's - the way in which the FIA stretched out the required minimum lifespan might have forced Toyota to make some compromises that saw them having to sacrifice their peak power. Equally, Toyota might have chosen to slightly compromise on power output as a trade off against fuel consumption - they were rumoured to have one of the more fuel efficient V8's (another reason why the unraced TF110 is another of those "what if" cars, since Toyota might have had a sizeable fuel weight advantage on full tanks).

Finally, there is one other possibility - that Toyota were hampered by the fact that they chose not to abuse the regulations on "reliability upgrades" in the same way that some of their rivals did. Honda stated that they felt that they'd been hampered by the fact that they stuck to the letter of the regulations much more strictly than their rivals, and it is plausible that Toyota may have also fallen victim to the same rigour for the regulations.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 13 Jan 2013, 17:51

darkapprentice77 wrote:I've just thought...

The 1980 Spanish GP was a great result for Ford, a 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-22 Finish by Cosworth DFV engined cars.

Bad day for Ferrari then I assume!

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 13 Jan 2013, 17:55

dr-baker wrote:
darkapprentice77 wrote:I've just thought...

The 1980 Spanish GP was a great result for Ford, a 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-22 Finish by Cosworth DFV engined cars.

Bad day for Ferrari then I assume!

Ferrari, as well as Alfa Romeo and Renault didn't take part because of the FISA-FOCA war. It also was a non-championship race for the same reason.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 13 Jan 2013, 18:03

dr-baker wrote:
darkapprentice77 wrote:I've just thought...

The 1980 Spanish GP was a great result for Ford, a 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-22 Finish by Cosworth DFV engined cars.

Bad day for Ferrari then I assume!

Indeed, those who moan about the lack of current engine manufacturers should take a look at some of the mid-70s seasons, when only a couple of teams didn't use Cosworths (Ferrari and BRM spring to mind).

While we are heading to the same direction again, this time each supplier has a rather equal share of teams.

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 16 Jan 2013, 22:33

What the bathplug just happened last night? Starting to convince me that the forum is getting near it's end, certainly hope not though.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 16 Jan 2013, 22:43

eurobrun wrote:What the bathplug just happened last night? Starting to convince me that the forum is getting near it's end, certainly hope not though.

What do you mean, the trolling by Joey Zila? Don't worry, the forum is definitely not coming near its end, and that guy is a ban waiting to happen.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 16 Jan 2013, 23:02

Phoenix wrote:
eurobrun wrote:What the bathplug just happened last night? Starting to convince me that the forum is getting near it's end, certainly hope not though.

What do you mean, the trolling by Joey Zila? Don't worry, the forum is definitely not coming near its end, and that guy is a ban waiting to happen.

Thank goodness we have had very few people banned from here. Less than 1 per year, isn't it (barring spambots, of course!)?

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 16 Jan 2013, 23:04

eurobrun wrote:What the bathplug just happened last night? Starting to convince me that the forum is getting near it's end, certainly hope not though.

These things can happen, we should not get distracted by a few people who have a different vision on this forum (i do not want to judge anyone, it might be a case of misunderstanding), and just keep being ourselves.
We have two excellent moderators (well we have four, but the other two vanished :lol:

) so i don't worry about that.

dr-baker wrote:Thank goodness we have had very few people banned from here. Less than 1 per year, isn't it (barring spambots, of course!)?

If i'm not mistaken, some spambots aren't even banned, because they are too funny :lol:

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 16 Jan 2013, 23:04

dr-baker wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
eurobrun wrote:What the bathplug just happened last night? Starting to convince me that the forum is getting near it's end, certainly hope not though.

What do you mean, the trolling by Joey Zila? Don't worry, the forum is definitely not coming near its end, and that guy is a ban waiting to happen.

Thank goodness we have had very few people banned from here. Less than 1 per year, isn't it (barring spambots, of course!)?

Actually, if you discount spambots, Joey Zila would be the first ever banned user.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 16 Jan 2013, 23:06

How long has he been banned for?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 16 Jan 2013, 23:09

This wrote:
eurobrun wrote:What the bathplug just happened last night? Starting to convince me that the forum is getting near it's end, certainly hope not though.

These things can happen, we should not get distracted by a few people who have a different vision on this forum (i do not want to judge anyone, it might be a case of misunderstanding), and just keep being ourselves.
We have two excellent moderators (well we have four, but the other two vanished ) so i don't worry about that.

Ahem, one of them have returned and have been back on a semi-regular basis for a while now.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 16 Jan 2013, 23:11

Wizzie wrote:
This wrote:
eurobrun wrote:What the bathplug just happened last night? Starting to convince me that the forum is getting near it's end, certainly hope not though.

These things can happen, we should not get distracted by a few people who have a different vision on this forum (i do not want to judge anyone, it might be a case of misunderstanding), and just keep being ourselves.
We have two excellent moderators (well we have four, but the other two vanished ) so i don't worry about that.

Ahem, one of them have returned and have been back on a semi-regular basis for a while now.

Oh sorry, didn't notice he's back :oops:

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 16 Jan 2013, 23:20

darkapprentice77 wrote:How long has he been banned for?

Not yet, but he's on the chopping block already. One more show like that and he's done.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 17 Jan 2013, 00:36

Phoenix wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
Phoenix wrote:What do you mean, the trolling by Joey Zila? Don't worry, the forum is definitely not coming near its end, and that guy is a ban waiting to happen.

Thank goodness we have had very few people banned from here. Less than 1 per year, isn't it (barring spambots, of course!)?

Actually, if you discount spambots, Joey Zila would be the first ever banned user.

Snoozey? PWNSNBM? Or were they the same person?

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 17 Jan 2013, 00:38

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:Snoozey? PWNSNBM? Or were they the same person?

They were indeed the same person, and they left the forum of their own accord.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 17 Jan 2013, 01:02

Phoenix wrote:
Stramala [kostas22] wrote:Snoozey? PWNSNBM? Or were they the same person?

They were indeed the same person, and they left the forum of their own accord.

Fun times.

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 17 Jan 2013, 05:38

Zetec wrote:
Klon wrote:
Zetec wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105018

In other words: Mark you're shite, and you still have a seat just because it's Vettel who wins the WC anyway and you're no threat to him.

The problem is: he's 100 per-cent correct: Mark Webber is a choker and victim to the fact that his team mate is just a much better driver. Webber had one very good shot at the championship in 2010 and he blew it. He has no excuses at all for this, it was him failing to get the job done. With how good the 2011 Red Bull was, Webber only had to beat one guy - and that guy smashed him like he's an egg on his way to become an omelette. 2012 he had a good start and even promts a certain Australian writer to write an article about his championship chances. What happens? He drops of the face of the earth for the rest of the season.

Hate on Marko all you want, but he friggin' nailed it there.

Of course he's correct. But that's not the way he should talk about own drivers in the media. Driver with similar results and distance compared to their teammate are: Massa, Grosjean, Schumacher, di Resta and other ones as well if you look at the points. Has one of the teams of these guys talked bad about them in the media? No, because that is not the way you handle your drivers or staff. It's all about motivation. How would you feel, if one of your bosses would tell to someone else, that you're "crap" compared to one of your fellow employee?

Of course when Grosjean runs over competitors like he's Dennis Vitolo and destroys the car on the first lap, it can't be good for his points totals.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 17 Jan 2013, 08:02

eurobrun wrote:What the bathplug just happened last night? Starting to convince me that the forum is getting near it's end, certainly hope not though.

Meh, that's even above my level of negativity - I don't think the forum will get to its end very soon.

Warren Hughes · Post by **Warren Hughes** » 17 Jan 2013, 11:51

What actually happened with Mr Zyla?

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 17 Jan 2013, 11:57

Warren Hughes wrote:What actually happened with Mr Zyla?

From what I could deduce, this happened to hime when someone started mocking Di Resta:

Oh and he got banned.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 17 Jan 2013, 12:01

Warren Hughes wrote:What actually happened with Mr Zyla?

Venit, vidit, periit

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 17 Jan 2013, 12:02

Warren Hughes wrote:What actually happened with Mr Zyla?

Imagine a page worth of threads that consisted of two words. In all five forums.

It was horrible...

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 17 Jan 2013, 16:28

Shizuka wrote:
eurobrun wrote:What the bathplug just happened last night? Starting to convince me that the forum is getting near it's end, certainly hope not though.

Meh, that's even above my level of negativity - I don't think the forum will get to its end very soon.

PLEASE DO NOT TEMPT INDIAN HACKERS!!! :lol:

If anyone remembers that saga...

the Masked Lapwing wrote:
Warren Hughes wrote:What actually happened with Mr Zyla?

Imagine a page worth of threads that consisted of two words. In all five forums.

It was horrible...

I missed that whole mess, so I was wondering what all the talk was about. Ah well, let's just say it's a good pat on the back to the good people of this forum, because the forum was founded around the 2009 Australian GP weekend, and it's taken until... well, 2013 for a human to be banned.

You all are awesome. :mrgreen:

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 17 Jan 2013, 19:24

Cynon wrote:PLEASE DO NOT TEMPT INDIAN HACKERS!!!
If anyone remembers that saga...

I do, I do, I do...

While I am here: reading "The Secret Life of Bernie Ecclestone" I noticed that there are quite some similarities between Ecclestone and myself. Perhaps I should take over FOM once Bernie's ... well ... left office. :lol:

LellaLombardi · Post by **LellaLombardi** » 18 Jan 2013, 13:10

Somebody at the BBC must really like Mark Webber, this has to be one of the most charitable driver profile's I've read: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20837900

"More than good enough to keep the precocious German on his toes"? Sorry, was I watching a different Mark Webber last year?

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 18 Jan 2013, 14:32

LellaLombardi wrote:Somebody at the BBC must really like Mark Webber, this has to be one of the most charitable driver profile's I've read: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20837900

"More than good enough to keep the precocious German on his toes"? Sorry, was I watching a different Mark Webber last year?

I believe Webber does the occasional column for BBC Sport, hence the spin on that profile.

LellaLombardi · Post by **LellaLombardi** » 18 Jan 2013, 21:55

takagi_for_the_win wrote:
LellaLombardi wrote:Somebody at the BBC must really like Mark Webber, this has to be one of the most charitable driver profile's I've read: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20837900

"More than good enough to keep the precocious German on his toes"? Sorry, was I watching a different Mark Webber last year?

I believe Webber does the occasional column for BBC Sport, hence the spin on that profile.

Ah yes of course. He probably wrote it himself.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 19 Jan 2013, 10:51

Earlier today, I was thinking to myself about how many drivers on the grid have tracks that they tend to perform better at than everywhere else and I've come to some very interesting conclusions:

Obviously, Nico Hulkenberg's best track is quickly becoming Interlagos after his incredible pole lap in 2010 and actually being in contention to win last year. However, former teammate Paul di Resta actually seems to do better at Singapore than everywhere else on the calender based on previous results. Which got me wondering if all the drivers on the grid have one or two tracks where they perform noticeably better than anywhere else.