The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

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Shadaza
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Shadaza »

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11:38 We're about to have a change at the wheel of AUTOSPORT Live. Sam Tremayne is going to step in for Glenn Freeman, as Edd Straw confirms that Taki Inoue has lodged a vote for himself in our worst drivers poll.

11:39 Inoue has also launched a campaign to get more votes!

11:41 Inoue's vote-rigging antics have hit a snag: Straw is being flooded with votes for the Japanese driver, but none of them include #autosportlive - so technically they don't count!


The highlight of the testing season so far.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by AndreaModa »

Shadaza wrote:

Code: Select all

11:38 We're about to have a change at the wheel of AUTOSPORT Live. Sam Tremayne is going to step in for Glenn Freeman, as Edd Straw confirms that Taki Inoue has lodged a vote for himself in our worst drivers poll.

11:39 Inoue has also launched a campaign to get more votes!

11:41 Inoue's vote-rigging antics have hit a snag: Straw is being flooded with votes for the Japanese driver, but none of them include #autosportlive - so technically they don't count!


The highlight of the testing season so far.


Without a doubt! I've spent more time watching the Autosport feed this morning than doing work! :lol:
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by mario »

Wizzie wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Christ, where did that lap from Massa come from? :shock:


Well, I guess we can toss McLaren and Lotus' times from the last couple days completely out the window; still no idea in the slightest what the pecking order is.


Indeed. We now also know the softs are falling away faster than the Hindenberg here at Jerez.

In other news, I believe Gaston Mazzacane has just been added to the Autosport shortlist

That isn't too surprising, though - Pirelli have said that the tyre wear at Jerez is likely to be unrepresentative because the track has an unusually abrasive surface, which is why most of the teams seem more interested in sorting out the handling characteristics of the cars and seeing how they respond to set up changes rather than outright performance.

As for the question of pecking order, well, that still seems to be a somewhat confusing picture. The suggestion from the BBC, based on the longer runs from the first two days of the test, put Grosjean and Massa roughly even in terms of performance, with Button then slotting in behind those two ahead of Ricciardo, Hulkenberg and Webber in that order.

Now, the indication so far is that Red Bull have been relatively conservative so far in terms of performance, plus it seems that they are having some set up issues with the car. Anderson over at the BBC commented that the RB9 seems to have a rather sensitive front end, with Webber sometimes struggling to get the nose turned in if he is even marginally off line, with Massa seemingly also suffering from the same problem (and, overall, whilst the F138 seemed to have better pace than the F2012, it still seems to have retained some of its slight instability in terms of its handling).
In both instances, though, that could be at least partially explained if the cars running moderately high fuel loads, and we know that Webber has done a few longish runs in the past few days, so that is likely to be the case.

By comparison, Grosjean's car appeared to be more neutrally balanced and compliant, whereas Ricciardo's performance suggested that Toro Rosso are, like last year, still suffering from rear instability. In their cases, though, it appears that the headline times were set with somewhat lighter fuel loads than their rivals (especially in the case of Toro Rosso), so again the picture may be more flattering than is actually the case.

Given that, I'd tentatively suggest that the more likely running order is probably going to see McLaren, Red Bull and Ferrari in their usual tight group (where exactly each team will sit is hard to tell), with Lotus close behind them but perhaps slightly less competitive than the current times suggest. After that, it'll probably be the pairing of Force India and Sauber - they both seem moderately competitive at the moment - with Toro Rosso perhaps closer to them in terms of performance than they were in 2012, but likely to be further back on the grid than the laptimes currently suggest.

Elsewhere, Mercedes can't really be judged due to their lack of running over the first two days - although Rosberg has racked up enough laps (getting on for 90 laps at the moment and counting) to perhaps start drawing some first impressions. Of course, Williams can't be judged due to the absence of their car - although it looks like they are trying out the new nose for the FW35, along with one or two other bits, on the FW34 test hack they're using - whilst Caterham still seem to be a little off the pace judging by their longer runs (Marussia's disrupted test program makes it hard to judge their performance - and they still seem to be having some teething troubles today, this time with their electrical systems - but Chilton's times are beginning to improve and the team are preparing for some much longer runs later today, so maybe things aren't quite so bad after all).
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by JJMonty »

Mercedes have got some serious issues to sort out, the main one being their heat distribution again - how can a team with their budget, always have reliability problems?

Looking at the shots of the test just now, look at how discoloured the merc is getting because of the heat!

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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by mario »

It is certainly strange that they are seemingly having this issue again, but on the other hand it doesn't seem to be having any detrimental impact on the reliability or performance of the car today. Rosberg has done 137 laps today without any signs of a repeat of the problems that the team had over the previous two days - in fact, given that Button has done less than 50 laps today (so far - he is back on track now) and only did 36 on the first day, if you add his total to Perez's 81 laps yesterday, I think that Mercedes might now have done slightly more laps than McLaren have, or at the very least be on a comparable total.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Wallio »

hey mates, back after the winter break. I do have a question for Mario/Fautus, (or whoever might know). We all say "oh its only the first test, blah, blah, blah" but really, how much did the first two days hurt Mercedes? I ask because I know when we test new parts/set-up/etc on our drag car before a big meet, if we hit problems, we're bathplugged. And we're bloody amatuers! Surely this must be a set back, no?

Otherwise I find it horrifying how much the Marussia reminds me of the last Coloni. Gorgeous, horrifingly slow, and jarringly devoid of sponsors. Can Marussia afford F1? I mean, no knock on my second-fave team, but has anyone ever seen a Marussia? Spyker failed in F1 and people bought their cars..........

Also, while we tease Oppa Grosean Style here (deservedly) I gotta say that posted video of him is frankly a great save. Could have gone much worse.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by JJMonty »

Wallio wrote:hey mates, back after the winter break. I do have a question for Mario/Fautus, (or whoever might know). We all say "oh its only the first test, blah, blah, blah" but really, how much did the first two days hurt Mercedes? I ask because I know when we test new parts/set-up/etc on our drag car before a big meet, if we hit problems, we're bathplugged. And we're bloody amatuers! Surely this must be a set back, no?

Otherwise I find it horrifying how much the Marussia reminds me of the last Coloni. Gorgeous, horrifingly slow, and jarringly devoid of sponsors. Can Marussia afford F1? I mean, no knock on my second-fave team, but has anyone ever seen a Marussia? Spyker failed in F1 and people bought their cars..........

Also, while we tease Oppa Grosean Style here (deservedly) I gotta say that posted video of him is frankly a great save. Could have gone much worse.


Testing was originally used to see how well a car worked, the more testing you did, the more feed.back you got. (Thus how Schuy was devistatingly dominant).

CAD, wind tunnels and other methods such as Sim Testing has eased the pressure that testing once had, though it is still the best way of finding out how well your car works. For teams on a smaller budget, then they are limited to how much they can change on the car if the test results are bad. Some might prefer to try and optimize setup work to make the most out of a bad scenario because they know they won't have a "B spec" car ready for the next test/race.

Eitherway, testing is very important because it gives information back to the team. Mercedes have got off to a bad start (giving cause for reliability concerns), though they have done much better today and have probably generated sufficient feed.back (though, looking at the photos, there is some concern about the heat transfer).

Practice makes perfect and if you can't practice, then you are going to be starting at a disadvantage.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by andrew »

1. Felipe Massa Ferrari 1m17.879s 85
2. Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1m18.766s +0.887 148
3. Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 1m19.052s +1.173 102
4. Kimi Raikkonen Lotus 1m19.200s +1.321 40
5. Jean-Eric Vergne Toro Rosso 1m19.247s +1.368 85
6. James Rossiter Force India 1m19.303s +1.424 42
7. Jenson Button McLaren 1m19.603s +1.724 83
8. Esteban Gutierrez Sauber 1m19.934s +2.055 110
9. Max Chilton Marussia 1m21.269s +3.390 78
10. Valtteri Bottas Williams 1m21.575s +3.696 86
11. Charles Pic Caterham 1m22.352s +4.473 57
12. Paul di Resta Force India 1m23.729s +5.850 7
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by DanielPT »

It's time for more wacky predictions!

So,

Fernando Alonso's wingman delivered a no ballast, low fuel, soft tire lap because the tiffosi were getting itchy and I still think Lewis Hamilton's team still has some pace to show. There goes Red Dull sand boxing again while team Enstone went back to really test the car instead of topping the time table. Nothing to report in the McLaren, Red Dull nº2 and Mallya's front. Sauber still looks like to be a little behind while the new teams still languish a bit off the pace although better than the previous years. The jury is still out on that Max Chilton's time.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Wallio »

[quote="DanielPT"]It's time for more wacky predictions!

So,

Fernando Alonso's wingman delivered a no ballast, low fuel, soft tire lap [\quote]


Didn't Prost Get caught doing that at the turn of the 2000s?
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by JJMonty »

Wallio wrote:
DanielPT wrote:It's time for more wacky predictions!

So,

Fernando Alonso's wingman delivered a no ballast, low fuel, soft tire lap [\quote]


Didn't Prost Get caught doing that at the turn of the 2000s?


And Sauber in 2010
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by mario »

JJMonty wrote:
Wallio wrote:hey mates, back after the winter break. I do have a question for Mario/Fautus, (or whoever might know). We all say "oh its only the first test, blah, blah, blah" but really, how much did the first two days hurt Mercedes? I ask because I know when we test new parts/set-up/etc on our drag car before a big meet, if we hit problems, we're bathplugged. And we're bloody amatuers! Surely this must be a set back, no?

Otherwise I find it horrifying how much the Marussia reminds me of the last Coloni. Gorgeous, horrifingly slow, and jarringly devoid of sponsors. Can Marussia afford F1? I mean, no knock on my second-fave team, but has anyone ever seen a Marussia? Spyker failed in F1 and people bought their cars..........

Also, while we tease Oppa Grosean Style here (deservedly) I gotta say that posted video of him is frankly a great save. Could have gone much worse.


Testing was originally used to see how well a car worked, the more testing you did, the more feed.back you got. (Thus how Schuy was devistatingly dominant).

CAD, wind tunnels and other methods such as Sim Testing has eased the pressure that testing once had, though it is still the best way of finding out how well your car works. For teams on a smaller budget, then they are limited to how much they can change on the car if the test results are bad. Some might prefer to try and optimize setup work to make the most out of a bad scenario because they know they won't have a "B spec" car ready for the next test/race.

Eitherway, testing is very important because it gives information back to the team. Mercedes have got off to a bad start (giving cause for reliability concerns), though they have done much better today and have probably generated sufficient feed.back (though, looking at the photos, there is some concern about the heat transfer).

Practice makes perfect and if you can't practice, then you are going to be starting at a disadvantage.

Faustus would probably be able to cover this in much more detail (it is likely to be an area where his knowledge outstrips mine by some margin), but I'll ad my thought as well. JJ Monty is right that, to a certain extent, the introduction of other methods of analysing the performance of a car has eased the need for testing to some extent, particularly with the introduction of more sophisticated "driver in the loop" systems, whilst CFD and other computational tools are improving quite markedly too.

However, testing still has a very real and important function in a number of ways - it helps provide realistic data for the simulator models, particularly for the tyres - Pirelli has released some data beforehand, but the test car they are using is a couple of years older than the current cars and, despite their efforts, won't quite have the same handling characteristics as a current F1 car, particularly for Ferrari and McLaren given the changes they have made to their front suspension geometries.
Wind tunnel calibration is often carried out these days too - bear in mind that the teams cannot use full scale models in their wind tunnels, so there may be some scale effects that haven't been picked up before - whilst other issues that might otherwise not have been discovered on the test bench can also be picked up (dynos can only go so far in replicating the stresses that are put on engines and gearboxes out on the track).

Now, in the case of Mercedes, it is true that the problems they encountered on the first two days will have hurt them a bit - especially for Hamilton, since he is still adapting to the team - but, because they have been able to recover that lost time today, it probably won't be a total disaster. After all, in 2012 Lotus effectively missed the whole of the first test after it turned out that the chassis they'd brought to Jerez was defective, yet they were able to recover from that and turn things around fairly quickly.
Admittedly, it also helps that the first test is generally more geared towards systems checks and evaluating set up changes because of the fact that Jerez isn't as representative of your typical track as Barcelona is, so if you were to have to miss a test, it'd probably be less damaging to miss this one.

As for Marussia, well, there are a few mitigating factors for them - for a start, I am not sure that either Chilton or Razia have even driven at Jerez before, or at the very least not driven there recently. Both drivers will not only have to learn about an unfamiliar car, but they will also have to learn the best way around an unfamiliar track too, whilst the team themselves will be having to learn about other aspect too, like how to develop an optimal KERS strategy.

JJMonty wrote:
Wallio wrote:
DanielPT wrote:It's time for more wacky predictions!

So,

Fernando Alonso's wingman delivered a no ballast, low fuel, soft tire lap



Didn't Prost Get caught doing that at the turn of the 2000s?


And Sauber in 2010

Ferrari might indeed be putting in a fast time or two to placate the tifosi, although I expect that the more experienced fans would see past that fairly quickly. The more interesting part would be Massa's long run pace, which reportedly was fairly solid (the indication was that it was comparable with the expected front running teams), so overall it sounds as if Ferrari are, even if they're showboating a little, in a better position than they were this time last year.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Wallio »

Thanks Monty and Mario, great stuff. I do often forget how ridiculous the teams simulators are nowadays. And I suppose if you're going to bomb a test, better to do it at a track you're not coming back too.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by WeirdKerr »

I thought that there was regulations brought in a couple of years back that cars had to comply with weight checks at test sessions?
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Wallio »

Just thought of another question, Mario mentioned that teams don't run full scale windtunnels. Why? Cost, or is it banned? I never understood this one.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

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Wallio wrote:Just thought of another question, Mario mentioned that teams don't run full scale windtunnels. Why? Cost, or is it banned? I never understood this one.

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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by DanielPT »

Also, it is not illegal to remove the ballast in testing. It is just a bit pointless since the corresponding data will be useless when the season comes.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

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DanielPT wrote:Also, it is not illegal to remove the ballast in testing. It is just a bit pointless since the corresponding data will be useless when the season comes.

That may only be allowed so teams can put various data collecting devices on the cars without changing the weight. That way the data they collect isn't impacted by the weight difference.

But I have no idea if that's why for certain. Just a hypothesis.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Rusujuur »

I may be wrong here but it seems the cars are around a second quicker compared to last year's cars not time-wise but comparatively as last year Merc was one of the quickest ones in Jeres (although still having EBD) but Williams is about 1-1.5 slower assuming they are running a similar program to Merc last year. BTW aren't the tires supposed to be quicker compared to last year? If so, why aren't the times reflecting this? Weather?

On a sidenote, the long runs seem very confusing, Ferrari seems to be miles ahead of Macca and Lotus ,RB is hanging in there and Caterham and Marussia seem to slower than last year???
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

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@ Wallio - Simulators aren't that bad to be fair. Of course, they compare nothing to real-life, but they have improved a lot. They are good for teams to practice setup work, if you have a good software engine that replicates the laws of physics accurately, it is also a good (and very cheap way) of testing out new parts before actually producing them and testing them. Testing is very expensive, so if they can find out that a new design is rubbish, it is much cheaper to come to this conclusion on a simulator, rather than build it all up in Carbon Fibre and go testing - it would be seen as not only an expensive mistake but an embarrasing one as the public can see their cock-up too! Also, from a drivers point of view (I can vow for this ;) ), it is good practice for either visiting a new circuit, or training yourself mentally through practice.

I think the main reason was due to the costs, wind tunnels are very, VERY expensive to run. Having a full-scale windtunnel that is trying to replicate 200mph winds is not only dangerous, but very expensive and complicated to build, run and maintain. It's not banned, I think the limit was 80% scale, though this might have been reduced to 50% in an aid to reduce costs further. Mario or Faustus will probably know the answer better than me, I'm just an Engineering Student at Uni learning about this stuff now! :P

Running without ballast isn't illegal in tests, it is good for a car to run without ballast so a) the team can gain a bit of publicity, but also b) They have a baseline of the car's handling charicteristics, they can then add the ballast and adjust the position to find an optimum handling behavior for the car.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Svenko Wankerov »

Good to see the Marrussia faster than the Caterham.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by f1-gast »

Is it just me, or does it feel confidence to see De LaRosa in the Ferrari (not mention it it blows up :D ) as the testpilot ?
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by DanielPT »

The traditional glory run from Sauber... :P
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by TomWazzleshaw »

Red Bull are confusing me more and more by the minute. I mean, Vettel's fastest time so far this morning is not quick enough to be a showboat effort, yet not slow enough to be a relatively heavy fuel load. And by this time yesterday, Massa had already done that insane 1:17. Which for the record was the first lap of a five lap stint for the Ferrari.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by GwilymJJames »

Ferrari have caught HRT from Pedro.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by DanielPT »

One thing must be said though, that Ferrari has really been on fire lately...
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by mario »

JJMonty wrote:@ Wallio - Simulators aren't that bad to be fair. Of course, they compare nothing to real-life, but they have improved a lot. They are good for teams to practice setup work, if you have a good software engine that replicates the laws of physics accurately, it is also a good (and very cheap way) of testing out new parts before actually producing them and testing them. Testing is very expensive, so if they can find out that a new design is rubbish, it is much cheaper to come to this conclusion on a simulator, rather than build it all up in Carbon Fibre and go testing - it would be seen as not only an expensive mistake but an embarrasing one as the public can see their cock-up too! Also, from a drivers point of view (I can vow for this ;) ), it is good practice for either visiting a new circuit, or training yourself mentally through practice.

I think the main reason was due to the costs, wind tunnels are very, VERY expensive to run. Having a full-scale windtunnel that is trying to replicate 200mph winds is not only dangerous, but very expensive and complicated to build, run and maintain. It's not banned, I think the limit was 80% scale, though this might have been reduced to 50% in an aid to reduce costs further. Mario or Faustus will probably know the answer better than me, I'm just an Engineering Student at Uni learning about this stuff now! :P

Running without ballast isn't illegal in tests, it is good for a car to run without ballast so a) the team can gain a bit of publicity, but also b) They have a baseline of the car's handling charicteristics, they can then add the ballast and adjust the position to find an optimum handling behavior for the car.

As far as I am aware, yes, the use of scaled down wind tunnels is predominantly because of costs (although the teams can trade in their four straight line aero tests for on day of full scale wind tunnel testing with a third party, which is what Lotus did last year when they went to the Windshear facility).

As for running without ballast, as the tests are not officially run by the FIA, the cars don't have to strictly comply with the regulations (which is why you often see additional recording devices on the car that would otherwise be illegal if used during a race weekend). That said, these days the spread in performance between the harder and softer compounds is, in itself, enough to create a fairly substantial gap, so it'd probably be easier to simply drain the tank, bolt on the soft tyres and let the driver do a fast lap to grab the headlines that way instead (Massa was not entirely happy with that 1m17.8s lap because he set that time using a soft tyre, whereas Button's quickest lap was set on the hard compound - and given that Pirelli are trying to generate a gap of about 0.5s between each grade of compound over a single flying lap, that in itself could account for much of the time difference between Button and Massa right there).

f1-gast wrote:Is it just me, or does it feel confidence to see De LaRosa in the Ferrari (not mention it it blows up :D ) as the testpilot ?

If anything symbolises how life has treated Pedro, it is the sight of him getting out of the F138 as it slowly disappeared into that cloud of smoke (according to Ferrari, it looks like an oil leak was responsible for that fire) - especially since Ferrari are not entirely sure that they'll be able to get him back on track because they only have a limited number of spare parts.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by pi314159 »

The Ferrari is repaired and de la Rosa has done an installation lap.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Onxy Wrecked »

GwilymJJames wrote:Ferrari have caught HRT from Pedro.

HRT is a bad disease that may be terminal to engines and other mechanical components.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by mario »

DanielPT wrote:The traditional glory run from Sauber... :P

And now it looks like Force India are showboating a bit - Bianchi has just set a 1m18.175s lap, putting him a few tenths ahead of Vettel.

Meanwhile, it looks like Pirelli are pushing the teams to use an alternative venue for testing in 2014 - Hembery has said that the very rough macroscopic surface of Jerez is giving them problems with back analysing the performance of the tyres, although they have admitted that the colder temperatures of Barcelona make that an equally difficult alternative. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/02/07/h ... ace-worse/
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by CarlosFerreira »

Onxy Wrecked wrote:
GwilymJJames wrote:Ferrari have caught HRT from Pedro.

HRT is a bad disease that may be terminal to engines and other mechanical components.


Oh, come on. Fezza and de la Rosa are on fire today!
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Faustus »

JJMonty wrote:@ Wallio - Simulators aren't that bad to be fair. Of course, they compare nothing to real-life, but they have improved a lot. They are good for teams to practice setup work, if you have a good software engine that replicates the laws of physics accurately, it is also a good (and very cheap way) of testing out new parts before actually producing them and testing them. Testing is very expensive, so if they can find out that a new design is rubbish, it is much cheaper to come to this conclusion on a simulator, rather than build it all up in Carbon Fibre and go testing - it would be seen as not only an expensive mistake but an embarrasing one as the public can see their cock-up too! Also, from a drivers point of view (I can vow for this ;) ), it is good practice for either visiting a new circuit, or training yourself mentally through practice.

I think the main reason was due to the costs, wind tunnels are very, VERY expensive to run. Having a full-scale windtunnel that is trying to replicate 200mph winds is not only dangerous, but very expensive and complicated to build, run and maintain.


You are absolutely right that windtunnels are ridiculously expensive to run, in so many ways: energy consumption, maintenance, personnel, etc. The issue with windtunnel testing of scale models is the Reynolds number, or the correlation of scaled results to full-scale results. No Formula 1 team has a windtunnel big enough to run a full-scale car properly. Some teams can fit full-scale cars in the working section of their tunnels, but the working section is too small to avoid nasty airflow interaction from the sides of the section, not to mention to maintain a decent boundary layer suction device, so the results with a full-scale car are almost meaningless. The initial testing of any car, as well as the in-season straightline tests, is to validate the results obtained from testing a model in the windtunnel and the CFD simulation testing. This can established relatively easily by running a car up and down a runway, maintaining steady speeds and measure deceleration from a given speed. This allows for a 'correction factor' to be added to the model tunnel results and to the CFD model, to approximate the results to real-life. (Remember that the great value of CFD is in direct comparison of multiple iterations of the design of a component, rather than the discrete drag and lift figures)

I remain unconvinced that running a scale windtunnel is that much cheaper than a full-scale windtunnel, for the following reasons:

- the difference in cost of components is negligible, with only a slight difference in the raw material expenditure, because you still have to make tooling and follow the manufcturing process;
- the personnel costs are the same;
- maintenance is no different;
- the energy consumption is where the difference lies; the larger the cross-sectional area of a closed-section windtunnel, the higher the energy consumption to generate the required wind speed and 'quality' of air flow (let's not even talk about open-section windtunnels, because they are just obscene); the quality of the air flow is very important, you need the right air pressure and air pressure distribution across the entire tunnel, not just the working section, which is down to the tunnel design.

Running a full-scale car would only be worthwhile if you could run the tunnel to very high speeds to really replicate actual running conditions. That makes it even more expensive.

JJMonty wrote:It's not banned, I think the limit was 80% scale, though this might have been reduced to 50% in an aid to reduce costs further.


I thought the size limit now was 60%? I may be wrong.
Last edited by Faustus on 08 Feb 2013, 15:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Faustus »

Wallio wrote:hey mates, back after the winter break. I do have a question for Mario/Fautus, (or whoever might know). We all say "oh its only the first test, blah, blah, blah" but really, how much did the first two days hurt Mercedes? I ask because I know when we test new parts/set-up/etc on our drag car before a big meet, if we hit problems, we're bathplugged. And we're bloody amatuers! Surely this must be a set back, no?


It is invariably a setback, but it may not be too bad. There will be a schedule prepared in advance of the test, detailing number of runs, laps per run, aero runs, tyres to test, engine maps, etc. Usually a team builds in a few runs for showboating purposes, for the low-fuel-and-new-set-of-soft-tyres-kind-of-thing to grab headlines, so it may be just a case of sacrificing those in favour of doing actual work. Since Mercedes lost time over 2 days, it is probably just a case of changing the test schedule for the next 2 tests as well, to account for the delays.
Last edited by Faustus on 12 Feb 2013, 11:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Faustus »

JJMonty wrote:Mercedes have got some serious issues to sort out, the main one being their heat distribution again - how can a team with their budget, always have reliability problems?

Looking at the shots of the test just now, look at how discoloured the merc is getting because of the heat!

Image


Nasty though this looks, it's not too big an issue. Thicker gauge material on the exhaust, more heat shielding in the inside of the engine cover, possible small redesign of the exhaust header. This is the inherent value of testing. It is only in testing that a team will find out what breaks.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Benetton »

Only thing we know from the Jerez test is that Enstone have a good car. Why? Because Kimi said it is an improvement over last years car. Kimi doesn't care about bluffing etc, I think he just speaks the truth.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by andrew »

1 Raikkonen Lotus 1m18.148s
2 Bianchi Force India 1m18.175s +0.027
3 Vettel Red Bull 1m18.565s +0.417
4 Gutierrez Sauber 1m18.669s +0.521
5 Vergne Toro Rosso 1m18.760s +0.612
6 Hamilton Mercedes 1m18.905s +0.757
7 Perez McLaren 1m18.944s +0.796
8 Bottas Williams 1m19.851s +1.703
9 de la Rosa Ferrari 1m20.316s +2.168
10 Pic Caterham 1m21.105s +2.957
11 Razia Marussia 1m21.226s +3.078
12 Di Resta Force India 1m23.435s +5.287
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Wallio »

I know they were almot certainly on two totally different programs, but DiResta, being the way he is, can't like seeing Bianchi so far up the sheets. Great to see the Marussia less than a teth off the "Totally-Not-A-Lotus"
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by mario »

Faustus wrote:
JJMonty wrote:It's not banned, I think the limit was 80% scale, though this might have been reduced to 50% in an aid to reduce costs further.


I thought the size limit now was 60%? I may be wrong.

I believe that 60% is the permitted maximum scale (a couple of teams - Lotus and Mercedes - have upgraded from 50% to 60% in recent years, and I think that both teams indicated that they were going for the maximum size permitted under the current regulations to reduce the size of the correction factor required to correlate their results).
Also, and I might be mistaken on this point, I think that there is also a restriction on the airspeed within the wind tunnels too (I think that it is around 60 m/s), primarily to limit energy consumption (and, in turn, keep costs down).

On another note, the BBC are also giving a list of the number of laps covered by each team:
1 Sauber 430
2 Red Bull 372
3 Force India 357
4 Williams 332
5 Toro Rosso 330
6 Mercedes 319
7 Caterham 318
8 McLaren 298
9 Ferrari 277
10 Lotus 271
11 Marussia 219

So, by the looks of things Mercedes haven't actually lost that much at all - if anything, they've managed to rack up more laps than either McLaren, Ferrari or Lotus, so it hasn't been a bad day for them. Also, I understand that both Hamilton and Gutierrez did some quite long runs (Hamilton appears to have done a 20+ lap stint on the harder tyre, whilst Gutierrez appears to have done a full race simulation (with his times ranging from the 1m24s bracket to 1m27s over the course of his stints) - does anybody have the data for those stints, since that might give us a hint of the tyre wear patterns (even if, according to Pirelli, they are likely to be higher than we'd expect to see during the season because of the unusually rough surface in Jerez)?
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by Ataxia »

Razia just over a tenth away to Pic...they may have been on different programmes but that bodes quite well for a back-of-the-pack scrap.
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Re: The 2013 Pre-Season Test Thread

Post by JJMonty »

mario wrote:
Faustus wrote:
JJMonty wrote:It's not banned, I think the limit was 80% scale, though this might have been reduced to 50% in an aid to reduce costs further.


I thought the size limit now was 60%? I may be wrong.

I believe that 60% is the permitted maximum scale (a couple of teams - Lotus and Mercedes - have upgraded from 50% to 60% in recent years, and I think that both teams indicated that they were going for the maximum size permitted under the current regulations to reduce the size of the correction factor required to correlate their results).
Also, and I might be mistaken on this point, I think that there is also a restriction on the airspeed within the wind tunnels too (I think that it is around 60 m/s), primarily to limit energy consumption (and, in turn, keep costs down).


Thank you for clarifying that, I wasn't 100% sure, but you two will probably know more about the F1 rules than me! I won't argue back :D

Didn't realise there was a speed limit though! So aprox 135mph is the limit? Are there any further restrictions? i.e. no rolling roads etc.....
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