Ponderbox

[ibsey]

Has there ever been a F1 reject who has then had relative (son, brother, nephew etc) to go on & become an F1 reject themselves?

The nearest I can think off of the top of my head, is Jan Magnussen & if his son Kevin, makes it to F1 but fails.

[Salamander]

Has there ever been a F1 reject who has then had relative (son, brother, nephew etc) to go on & become an F1 reject themselves?

The nearest I can think off of the top of my head, is Jan Magnussen & if his son Kevin, makes it to F1 but fails.

Clearly you have forgotten the Winkelhocks, of whom 3 are rejects: Manfred, his brother Joachim, and Manfred's son Markus.

[mario]

A few interesting comments have been coming through from Melbourne in the wake of qualifying, especially from the McLaren camp.

For a start, there was the rather pessimistic comment was from Whitmarsh on the operating window of the MP4/28, which appears to be extremely narrow and is giving the team problems with optimising its performance. Moreover, there is now a suggestion that Button's very strong form in Jerez might have actually been misleading as he was running with an unusually low ride height which he wouldn't have been able to use in race trim - which now seems to explain why they were so strong in the first test but fell back at the two tests in Barcelona.
Perhaps most worrying of all is the suggestion by Whitmarsh that, although McLaren are committed to trying to improve the performance of the MP4/28, he isn't entirely ruling out the last ditch option of switching back to a revised version of the MP4/27.

When asked if going back to last year's car was something the team could do, team boss Martin Whitmarsh said: "It is possible, but I think at the moment the best thing for us is to work and understand this car.
"The season is incredibly long; if you are going to win races and championship you have to develop the car during the whole year. We have wanted to give ourselves the scope to do that, and probably if we had stuck on the original concepts of last year's car we would probably be stronger here today.

"But we have made a decision. We will work through this and we will have a car with more potential than we had last year."

Whitmarsh suggested that part of the problem with the new car is that its performance is too peaky, which means its speed is only delivered in a very narrow window. This was highlighted at the Jerez test in February when Jenson Button was able to deliver a very competitive lap time only with a low ride height that could not be used during an actual race.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106081

All in all, I imagine that Hamilton might have a wry smile on his face in Melbourne tonight - in light of McLaren's current problems, maybe his decision to switch to Mercedes isn't looking quite so bad after all.

[ibsey]

Has there ever been a F1 reject who has then had relative (son, brother, nephew etc) to go on & become an F1 reject themselves?

The nearest I can think off of the top of my head, is Jan Magnussen & if his son Kevin, makes it to F1 but fails.

Clearly you have forgotten the Winkelhocks, of whom 3 are rejects: Manfred, his brother Joachim, and Manfred's son Markus.

Indeed I had, thanks for reminding me BlindCaveSalamander.

[GwilymJJames]

Has there ever been a F1 reject who has then had relative (son, brother, nephew etc) to go on & become an F1 reject themselves?

The nearest I can think off of the top of my head, is Jan Magnussen & if his son Kevin, makes it to F1 but fails.

David & Gary Brabham

[pasta_maldonado]

Why can't a driver dominate that everyone likes?

[FullMetalJack]

Why can't a driver dominate that everyone likes?

Because this is F1 Rejects, we don't normally like the top drivers that much. Especially when they dominate.

I remember when this forum was first created and Button was dominating, he wasn't popular on here. He generally is now.

[dr-baker]

Why can't a driver dominate that everyone likes?

Because we are F1 Rejects. We like rejectfulness, not dominators.

And we must be within 48 hours of the 100,000th post in this forum. Who shall it be?

[Klon]

Why can't a driver dominate that everyone likes?

Because once a driver does that, he stops being liked by everyone. It's like asking "Why can't a popular politician ask for a tax raise?"

[Aerospeed]

Why can't a driver dominate that everyone likes?

Everyone likes Juan Manuel Fangio...

(and Alberto Ascari)

[dr-baker]

Why can't a driver dominate that everyone likes?

Everyone likes Juan Manuel Fangio...

(and Alberto Ascari)

But not Schumacher or Vettel. Is it because they is German?

[Cynon]

Why can't a driver dominate that everyone likes?

Everyone likes Juan Manuel Fangio...

(and Alberto Ascari)

But not Schumacher or Vettel. Is it because they is German?

I like Vettel...

[RonDenisDeletraz]

Why can't a driver dominate that everyone likes?

Mark Skaife in early 2000s V8 Supercars. That is all.

[Gerudo Dragon]

But not Schumacher or Vettel. Is it because they is German?

Everyone likes Stefan Bellof, so no.

[Klon]

But not Schumacher or Vettel. Is it because they is German?

Everyone likes Stefan Bellof, so no.

Only because he died before BELLOFWINSLOL could become a thing.

[pasta_maldonado]

I can see Martin Whitmarsh getting the sack from McLaren soon. He's failed to win a driver's or constructors championship, even with the fastest car, lost Lewis Hamilton, and squandered the advantage of said car. How much longer can McLaren put up with him?

[shinji]

He's failed to win a driver's or constructors championship

It's actually an indictment on the team as a whole that they've only won one WCC in the last 20 years (I guess an argument could be made for 2007, but I wouldn't be the guy to make it). For all their claims about having equality between the drivers, and being team-oriented (keeping the drivers' trophies etc.), there's something going seriously awry there.

[AdrianSutil]

But not Schumacher or Vettel. Is it because they is German?

Everyone likes Stefan Bellof, so no.

Only because he died before BELLOFWINSLOL could become a thing.

He certainly had the talent for it. Anyway, Kimi won the title this year, I'm sure no-one would be on here moaning about it.

[Klon]

He certainly had the talent for it. Anyway, Kimi won the title this year, I'm sure no-one would be on here moaning about it.

I would be raging about that for the next three months although only because AndreaModa would control my signature and avatar for that time if that happens.

[mario]

He's failed to win a driver's or constructors championship

It's actually an indictment on the team as a whole that they've only won one WCC in the last 20 years (I guess an argument could be made for 2007, but I wouldn't be the guy to make it). For all their claims about having equality between the drivers, and being team-oriented (keeping the drivers' trophies etc.), there's something going seriously awry there.

Especially given that they not only threw away the constructors and drivers titles in 2012 with poor reliability, operational errors and inconsistent performances, but managed to screw up badly enough to end up in 3rd place in the WCC, 22 points behind a Ferrari team that, in the opening races, was struggling to even make it into the top 10 at times.

Now, the knives may be out for Whitmarsh since the performance of the team in Melbourne was especially bad by their usual standards, but admittedly that may ease off if McLaren can put in a better performance in Malaysia. Still, for a team that normally prides itself on being clinical and highly analytical, there have been a lot of amateur mistakes in the past few years - numerous botched pit stops in the first half of 2012, dropping part of Hamilton's pit board on his head in Monaco and occasionally quite poor strategic decisions.
This year, they've already started off with incorrectly fitted suspension parts in testing and a baffling tyre choice in qualifying for Melbourne, plus a difficult to set up car that is reportedly understeering like mad and giving rise to a lot of calls to bring back the previous years car - maybe things will improve over the season, but by then it'll be, as seems to be the case in the past few years, it'll be too little, too late for the team.

[AndreaModa]

He certainly had the talent for it. Anyway, Kimi won the title this year, I'm sure no-one would be on here moaning about it.

I would be raging about that for the next three months although only because AndreaModa would control my signature and avatar for that time if that happens.

I would? Do we have a bet on that I've forgotten about?

[TomWazzleshaw]

He certainly had the talent for it. Anyway, Kimi won the title this year, I'm sure no-one would be on here moaning about it.

I would be raging about that for the next three months although only because AndreaModa would control my signature and avatar for that time if that happens.

I would? Do we have a bet on that I've forgotten about?

I would have thought that if there was a bet between you two, it'd be concerning the relative performance of Jones and MRT in the F1RWRS next season

[madmark1974]

Whilst everyone is jumping on McLaren, I was wondering, is this their weakest driver line up since the Pacific GP in 1995, where their entrants were Mark Blundell and Jan Magnussen?

Since then they've had at least one of the following : Hakkinen, Coulthard, Montoya, Raikkonnen, Hamilton or Alonso, all of whom I'd rate above either of the current line-up (well Coulthard about the same as Button).

[DanielPT]

Whilst everyone is jumping on McLaren, I was wondering, is this their weakest driver line up since the Pacific GP in 1995, where their entrants were Mark Blundell and Jan Magnussen?

Since then they've had at least one of the following : Hakkinen, Coulthard, Montoya, Raikkonnen, Hamilton or Alonso, all of whom I'd rate above either of the current line-up (well Coulthard about the same as Button).

Well, I rate Button higher than Coulthard on pace and higher than Montoya on consistency. I am still waiting to see what Perez will do in Malaysia as it was its greatest race last season, but so far he has not done brilliantly...

[Salamander]

Whilst everyone is jumping on McLaren, I was wondering, is this their weakest driver line up since the Pacific GP in 1995, where their entrants were Mark Blundell and Jan Magnussen?

Since then they've had at least one of the following : Hakkinen, Coulthard, Montoya, Raikkonnen, Hamilton or Alonso, all of whom I'd rate above either of the current line-up (well Coulthard about the same as Button).

Well, I rate Button higher than Coulthard on pace and higher than Montoya on consistency. I am still waiting to see what Perez will do in Malaysia as it was its greatest race last season, but so far he has not done brilliantly...

A diseased monkey is more consistent than Montoya. Still, I think both Perez and Button would really shine if McLaren had developed a car worth a shite. They're not known for driving around shortcomings in the car, so, to be honest, taking such a risk with the MP4-28 was a stupid, stupid decision. I really hope they give Whitmarsh the sack before he drives the team further into the ground.

[Klon]

I would? Do we have a bet on that I've forgotten about?

Yes. Three months of wearing an avatar and sig of your choice if Räikkönen is within 65 points of the WDC championship leader (or, well, is the championship leader himself) before the third-to-last race of the championship. Otherwise, it's obviously the other way around. You also said that I needed to remember it because you were likely to forget it and I, with my trademark miserable sense of nationality-cliché humour, responded that forgetting things is inefficient and therefore won't happen to the German.

[ibsey]

Still, I think both Perez and Button would really shine if McLaren had developed a car worth a shite. They're not known for driving around shortcomings in the car, so, to be honest, taking such a risk with the MP4-28 was a stupid, stupid decision.

Presumably, Mclaren will have to develop updates to help enhance or widen the MP4-28 car setup window to help their drivers avoid having to drive around problems (as you say, something they aren't especially known for) as much as possible. Possibly meaning further time & resources diverted from finding future performance updates on the car? However considering Mclaren's resources, one would assume they should be able to overcome this as well as anyone.

If they don't do something to help make the car easier to setup for the drivers, then this year could prove very painful for Mclaren's drivers reputation (Perez in particular given this is his 1st big opportunity within a top team). Although having said that, it might equally turn out to be a good opportunity for Perez get the better of Button, within the inter-team battle. As the younger driver you would have thought Perez would be able to learn new things, such as driving around a car's shortcomings, better than Button.

[DanielPT]

Well, I rate Button higher than Coulthard on pace and higher than Montoya on consistency. I am still waiting to see what Perez will do in Malaysia as it was its greatest race last season, but so far he has not done brilliantly...

A diseased monkey is more consistent than Montoya.

I meant to say that I rated Button higher than Montoya based on their consistency difference between the two (with all the other aspects already in the balance).

I also can't think of any one more inconsistent than Montoya in recent times. Probably the most inconsistent driver on the current ranks is Webber.

[ibsey]

The cars occupying the front & last rows of the grid at Melbourne were all powered by the same engine. Though it would be worth a mention as not sure if that situation has ever occurred before.

[pi314159]

The cars occupying the front & last rows of the grid at Melbourne were all powered by the same engine. Though it would be worth a mention as not sure if that situation has ever occurred before.

Surely that happened during the seventies, when almost everyone had a Cosworth engine.

[ibsey]

The cars occupying the front & last rows of the grid at Melbourne were all powered by the same engine. Though it would be worth a mention as not sure if that situation has ever occurred before.

Surely that happened during the seventies, when almost everyone had a Cosworth engine.

Were the lesser teams in the seventies, getting the same specification Cosworth engine as the top teams? I'd always assumed they were a step or two behind.

[Salamander]

Well, I rate Button higher than Coulthard on pace and higher than Montoya on consistency. I am still waiting to see what Perez will do in Malaysia as it was its greatest race last season, but so far he has not done brilliantly...

A diseased monkey is more consistent than Montoya.

I meant to say that I rated Button higher than Montoya based on their consistency difference between the two (with all the other aspects already in the balance).

Ah, yeah, fair enough then.

I also can't think of any one more inconsistent than Montoya in recent times. Probably the most inconsistent driver on the current ranks is Webber.

Well, there is Maldonado... but that's pretty much a given.

[mario]

The cars occupying the front & last rows of the grid at Melbourne were all powered by the same engine. Though it would be worth a mention as not sure if that situation has ever occurred before.

Surely that happened during the seventies, when almost everyone had a Cosworth engine.

Were the lesser teams in the seventies, getting the same specification Cosworth engine as the top teams? I'd always assumed they were a step or two behind.

Cosworth normally did supply two different specifications of engines - a works specification engine and a customer specification engine, which was normally, as you say, a revision or two behind the works engine.
On top of that, there were a few teams that would purchase an engine from Cosworth but have it tuned by an independent specialist to maximise its performance - in the case of Nicholson, who were partners with McLaren, they later became an official subcontractor for Cosworth in the end, whilst Judd (aka Engine Developments Ltd.) produced their own modified cam shaft design for Williams in the early 1980's that gave Williams a slight power advantage (a modification that was incorporated into the last generation of conventional DFV's and the short stroke DFY that was in use from mid 1983 to 1985).

Still, I think both Perez and Button would really shine if McLaren had developed a car worth a shite. They're not known for driving around shortcomings in the car, so, to be honest, taking such a risk with the MP4-28 was a stupid, stupid decision.

Presumably, Mclaren will have to develop updates to help enhance or widen the MP4-28 car setup window to help their drivers avoid having to drive around problems (as you say, something they aren't especially known for) as much as possible. Possibly meaning further time & resources diverted from finding future performance updates on the car? However considering Mclaren's resources, one would assume they should be able to overcome this as well as anyone.

If they don't do something to help make the car easier to setup for the drivers, then this year could prove very painful for Mclaren's drivers reputation (Perez in particular given this is his 1st big opportunity within a top team). Although having said that, it might equally turn out to be a good opportunity for Perez get the better of Button, within the inter-team battle. As the younger driver you would have thought Perez would be able to learn new things, such as driving around a car's shortcomings, better than Button.

McLaren are in a difficult position in many ways - they have made a number of systematic changes to the car that, whilst offering greater development scope compared to the MP4/27, have also perhaps complicated their efforts to establish a workable base line (the major change to the front suspension layout has perhaps compounded the effect of modifying the front of the chassis, with the subsequent knock on in underbody aero performance).
It does seem to be compromising their efforts to develop the car - they seem to have had to hold back on some development parts because they are struggling to understand the car as it is, which is compromising them as their rivals are already bringing in further updates. If anything, some have wondered if some of their recent changes are downgrades, if anything - the front wing, for example, seems to have gone backwards compared to where they were back in 2012. OK, it is plausible that, around a more conventional circuit (such as the upcoming one in Malaysia) that McLaren should be able to find their feet a little better and regain some of their expected form, but having to concentrate on making the car more drivable will, inevitably, be absorbing some resources that they could otherwise focus on developing this car or their 2014 car.

For Perez, I suppose that it is a little bit of a double edged sword - on the one hand, he is in a position where he could perhaps more easily adapt his driving style to the car and gain an advantage that way, which is something that Button has struggled to do in the past. On the other hand, there are areas in which his inexperience has sometimes shown - we know from Sam Michael that Button realised that the team were making a mistake in Q2 by changing tyres too soon and he immediately asked to switch back. Button's better tactical awareness may be the one thing that enables him to maintain an edge over Perez, but having to work with a troubled car is going to be a trying experience for both drivers.

The other problem that both drivers will face is the inevitable comparison with Hamilton - although gone, in many ways he has left a deep mark on the team and there will be those who inevitably ask whether he would be able to do better than either Perez or Button are doing given that, at times, Button would go into a deep slump in performance (such as his run of form from Bahrain to Canada in 2012, for example).
Perhaps, a little bit like Williams in 1990, there is a perception, rightly or wrongly, that the drivers are a limiting factor in the performance of the car, and it is a perception that both drivers will have to face over the season - particularly if there are sudden spikes in performance of the team, which might lead others to wonder why they cannot replicate that performance more consistently in the future.

[AndreaModa]

I would? Do we have a bet on that I've forgotten about?

Yes. Three months of wearing an avatar and sig of your choice if Räikkönen is within 65 points of the WDC championship leader (or, well, is the championship leader himself) before the third-to-last race of the championship. Otherwise, it's obviously the other way around. You also said that I needed to remember it because you were likely to forget it and I, with my trademark miserable sense of nationality-cliché humour, responded that forgetting things is inefficient and therefore won't happen to the German.

Ah yes, but that was bloody ages ago, and I distinctly recall it being about last year's championship and not 2013.

...which would therefore mean that I would have lost, by a ridiculous two points, as Raikkonen was 67 points behind Vettel after India! Seeing as nothing has been said and we've started the new season though, we'll go with the bet being for 2013!

[Klon]

Ah yes, but that was bloody ages ago, and I distinctly recall it being about last year's championship and not 2013.

How could it have been about last year if we made it somewhere around the season finale?

[AndreaModa]

Ah yes, but that was bloody ages ago, and I distinctly recall it being about last year's championship and not 2013.

How could it have been about last year if we made it somewhere around the season finale?

Hey I'm getting old now, my memory is not what it used to be!

[James1978]

It's debatable which McLaren line-up was worse - Blundell/Magnussen from 1995 Pacific GP or Brundle/Alliot from 1994 Hungarian GP.

Then you're looking at Watson/De Cesaris in 1981 going back from that - between then and 1993 there was at least one of Lauda, Prost or Senna.

[ibsey]

It's debatable which McLaren line-up was worse - Blundell/Magnussen from 1995 Pacific GP or Brundle/Alliot from 1994 Hungarian GP.

Guys you seem to be forgetting about the amazing pairing that was...Watson & Stephen South at the 1980 US GP (Or should that be just Watson by himself...since South failed to qualify for the race). Surely this must also be in with a shout of being Mclaren worse ever driver line-up.

I’m loving this particular topic, of worse driver lineups, so much I’m going to start a new thread on it within the Eric van de Poele Forum. Let the fun begin.

[Londoner]

What was the given reason for Montoya's penalty in the 2002 Malaysian Grand Prix? Truly one of the worst stewarding decisions I've ever seen.

How much of Ferrari's demolition job on the rest of the field that season was down to the sheer incompetence of the other 10 teams? Because we had Williams who wasted a shitload of pole positions, McLaren with that unreliable wreck that was the MP4-17, plus Renault and Sauber who were underwhelming and unreliable. Then we had Jordan, Jaguar and BAR, whose 2002 cars were absolute dogs, Toyota who wasted countless millions in return for two measly points, Minardi who were never real contenders anyway , and Arrows who closed up shop during midseason.

[Salamander]

McLaren with that unreliable wreck that was the MP4-17

The 2002 McLaren was actually pretty good, it's just the Mercedes engine which was awful.