The Alex Yoong 2013 Malaysian GP Thread

[CoopsII]

[LellaLombardi]

Been with the gymnasts at a competition today (where we elevated ourselves from Sauber level to Mercedes level - 2013 Mercedes that is) so trying to follow things on the phone while making sure they vault properly. But the question that has been on my mind today is "But why shouldn't Vettel try for the win? He's a racing driver and he might need the points if the Championship race gets tight later"

It'll be interesting to see what Webber's next move is as this has been brewing since 2010. I've said this before - he either has to accept that things are the way they are at Red Bell and he will always be second fiddle - and not complain about it - or he should leave. It's one thing staying where the fastest car is, but surely it is more rewarding to drive a slower car and be respected within the team and perhaps be able to build them up? I know what option my own self-respect would prefer.

[Warren Hughes]

If the likes of Senna and Mansell had done what Vettel did today they would have been lauded from on high for their 'racer's instinct' etc etc. As racing fans, which is what we are, I don't see how we can have any complaint with Vettel today for wanting to race. Having said that, I was expecting to see a lot more Vettel-hate on this thread than I have, so well done everyone on that count. I only wish he'd not given it all the 'I'm very sorry for Mark, I wish I hadn't done it' crap afterwards. If he'd come out and said 'I race to win, and that's what I did today, and I'm really pleased to have finished first' my respect for him would have gone up massively.

So, I'll say it again, he did what I, as a fan, want to see drivers doing. And that's from a genuine Vettel non-fan.

[James1978]

I would have had more respect for Vettel if he'd won against Webber in a straight fight where Webber thought they were just allowed to go for it as opposed to Webber thinking they were in preservation and holding order mode!! (And also not offering a hollow apology)!

And I don't remember Senna being lauded for Imola 89 which to me was quite similar to this.

[Warren Hughes]

I don't know about Imola '89 as I was about 4 months old, but that was an alleged agreement between the drivers wasn't it, not a team order situation?

[CoopsII]

I would have had more respect for Vettel if he'd won against Webber in a straight fight where Webber thought they were just allowed to go for it as opposed to Webber thinking they were in preservation and holding order mode!!

I think he did win in a straight fight. Webber is no golaar, he wasnt caught unawares by Vettel, he would've known right away that Vettel was coming for him.

Vettel went up in my estimation today, admittedly he was probably aware there wouldnt be any major consequence for his action unlike if Webber had done it but even so.

[AndreaModa]

If the likes of Senna and Mansell had done what Vettel did today they would have been lauded from on high for their 'racer's instinct' etc etc. As racing fans, which is what we are, I don't see how we can have any complaint with Vettel today for wanting to race. Having said that, I was expecting to see a lot more Vettel-hate on this thread than I have, so well done everyone on that count. I only wish he'd not given it all the 'I'm very sorry for Mark, I wish I hadn't done it' crap afterwards. If he'd come out and said 'I race to win, and that's what I did today, and I'm really pleased to have finished first' my respect for him would have gone up massively.

So, I'll say it again, he did what I, as a fan, want to see drivers doing. And that's from a genuine Vettel non-fan.

This is the thing. It's exactly the sort of situation I think all of us want to see: a balls-out head-to-head fight between teammates for the race win. What's complicated matters is the team orders, and Vettel's post race comments.

Also, did anyone notice how Mark Webber was close to tears when being interviewed by the BBC post-race? I thought he was about to break up at one point! Poor guy, he's taken a lot of sh*t from that team. I could see him walk out in all honesty, it certainly wouldn't reflect badly on him.

[Benetton]

The worst part here is not Vettel failing to follow orders but his behavior after the race. I'd find him much more likable if he could just man up and just admit what he did and maybe tell us why he did it. Instead, he starts to cry foul that he shouldn't have done it and that he didn't do it on purpose and whatever... Man the bathplug up Sebastian!

[RealRacingRoots]

Jules Bianchi another great drive and has got 13th already, I can see him get 11th or 12th at some point and if things do go extremely well may even get a point. Marussia genuinely do have a tidy car now

Jules Bianchi continues to impress immensely. While we are all getting caught up in Vettel being Vettel there is always more to the story of the race, and this 13th is very key for Marussia when it comes down to dollars and cents at the end of the year.

[LellaLombardi]

Also, did anyone notice how Mark Webber was close to tears when being interviewed by the BBC post-race? I thought he was about to break up at one point! Poor guy, he's taken a lot of sh*t from that team. I could see him walk out in all honesty, it certainly wouldn't reflect badly on him.

I think if he stays it will reflect worse on him. If he's willing to stay and take this sort of thing then he's just a doormat.

[CarlosFerreira]

The worst part here is not Vettel failing to follow orders but his behavior after the race. I'd find him much more likable if he could just man up and just admit what he did and maybe tell us why he did it. Instead, he starts to cry foul that he shouldn't have done it and that he didn't do it on purpose and whatever... Man the bathplug up Sebastian!

My point precisely. I don't care if he decides to take team orders or not. He is good enough that no team would penalise him whatever he does. It's the Jackyll and Hyde number that makes him look like an insufferable knuckle head. I wonder at which moment Vettel becomes a marketing liability; don't forget that the reason that team runs is to raise the profile of an Austrian manufacturer of fizzy drinks.

[Salamander]

The worst part here is not Vettel failing to follow orders but his behavior after the race. I'd find him much more likable if he could just man up and just admit what he did and maybe tell us why he did it. Instead, he starts to cry foul that he shouldn't have done it and that he didn't do it on purpose and whatever... Man the bathplug up Sebastian!

This right here. This is the problem I have with Vettel. He has the same hunger to win at all costs that Senna had, that Schumacher had, but those guys were never sorry. Yet there's Vettel, saying he's sorry, still trying to look like a nice guy. Nobody buys it, Sebastian.

[Aerospeed]

The worst part here is not Vettel failing to follow orders but his behavior after the race. I'd find him much more likable if he could just man up and just admit what he did and maybe tell us why he did it. Instead, he starts to cry foul that he shouldn't have done it and that he didn't do it on purpose and whatever... Man the bathplug up Sebastian!

This right here. This is the problem I have with Vettel. He has the same hunger to win at all costs that Senna had, that Schumacher had, but those guys were never sorry. Yet there's Vettel, saying he's sorry, still trying to look like a nice guy. Nobody buys it, Sebastian.

+5

Still, I can't see him apologizing if he wins the championship by 6 or less points...

[mario]

Been with the gymnasts at a competition today (where we elevated ourselves from Sauber level to Mercedes level - 2013 Mercedes that is) so trying to follow things on the phone while making sure they vault properly. But the question that has been on my mind today is "But why shouldn't Vettel try for the win? He's a racing driver and he might need the points if the Championship race gets tight later"

It'll be interesting to see what Webber's next move is as this has been brewing since 2010. I've said this before - he either has to accept that things are the way they are at Red Bell and he will always be second fiddle - and not complain about it - or he should leave. It's one thing staying where the fastest car is, but surely it is more rewarding to drive a slower car and be respected within the team and perhaps be able to build them up? I know what option my own self-respect would prefer.

From the point of view of Vettel, I can certainly see why he would be tempted to ignore the requests to turn his fuel mix down, attack Webber and go for the win. With Alonso out of the race and Kimi having a relatively poor race, going for the victory has turned a 10 point deficit in the WDC into a 9 point lead over Kimi, a 14 point lead over Webber, 15 points over Hamilton and a 22 point lead over Alonso. With Ferrari starting the year with a much more competitive car than in 2012, not to mention Lotus proving to be better at tyre wear and Mercedes, so far, proving to be more competitive than Red Bull might have anticipated, I can see why Vettel would want to try to maximise his points haul at this stage in the season a.s.a.p. in case of an adverse swing in fortunes away from Red Bull.

The worst part here is not Vettel failing to follow orders but his behavior after the race. I'd find him much more likable if he could just man up and just admit what he did and maybe tell us why he did it. Instead, he starts to cry foul that he shouldn't have done it and that he didn't do it on purpose and whatever... Man the bathplug up Sebastian!

This right here. This is the problem I have with Vettel. He has the same hunger to win at all costs that Senna had, that Schumacher had, but those guys were never sorry. Yet there's Vettel, saying he's sorry, still trying to look like a nice guy. Nobody buys it, Sebastian.

Especially when he is being flat out contradicted by those who gave him the order in the first place (both Horner and Marko have confirmed that the order was given, and more than once, to Vettel to hold station). Horner might have tried to smooth things over earlier, but some of his subsequent comments in Autosport have been blunter and more critical:

When asked why the team did not ask Vettel to relinquish the position to Webber in the closing stages to make up for his defiance, Horner said: "Do you honestly think that if we had told him slow down and give the place back, he would have given it back?

"There was no point. He had made it quite clear what his intention was by making the move. He knew what the communication was. He had had the communication. He chose to ignore it. He put his interest beyond what the team's position was. He was focused on those seven points difference between second and first place - which was wrong. He has accepted it was wrong."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106356

That, I think, sums up much of the anger over what Vettel did - not so much that he actually went ahead and passed Webber, but that he has subsequently tried to pass off the move as an accident when even his own team are angry at the move and are publicly undermining his defence.

[Edit] An clip has surfaced on Youtube which gives excerpts of the radio traffic between the drivers and teams during the race, with some interesting comments from some of the drivers. Some comments are perhaps predictable (for example, Red Bull repeatedly telling Vettel not to set his KERS to overtake mode and telling him to back off), but some are a little more surprising (Hulkenberg's post race comments to the team were somewhat scathing, complaining about the amount of work that the car needs done to it, whilst Grosjean's more light hearted comments about wanting a cold beer after the race made me smile). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xppm9tzXc8

[fjackdaw]

Even without the subsequent fatal accident, I don't imagine many people lauding Pironi's move on Villeneuve.

[Warren Hughes]

Even without the subsequent fatal accident, I don't imagine many people lauding Pironi's move on Villeneuve.

We can't help but view that with the hindsight of knowing what happened next. And I wasn't around, but Villeneuve was the darling of the paddock and the fans back then wasn't he? People's perceptions of characters and personalities have a huge influence on their perceptions of events that these characters are involved in. Today is a case in point - it must be clear to everyone that the nature of the discussion would be massively different if Vettel's and Webber's roles were reversed.

[LellaLombardi]

The worst part here is not Vettel failing to follow orders but his behavior after the race. I'd find him much more likable if he could just man up and just admit what he did and maybe tell us why he did it. Instead, he starts to cry foul that he shouldn't have done it and that he didn't do it on purpose and whatever... Man the bathplug up Sebastian!

This right here. This is the problem I have with Vettel. He has the same hunger to win at all costs that Senna had, that Schumacher had, but those guys were never sorry. Yet there's Vettel, saying he's sorry, still trying to look like a nice guy. Nobody buys it, Sebastian.

It's a hard one to call, as Schumacher in particular gets vilified in the British press for not apologising - the nearest he has ever really got to it is saying there are things he would do differently. I think Vettel is apologising more because Red Bull have got a bit upset with him, rather than that he's genuinely sorry for what he did, and wants to preserve his nice guy image. Schumi didn't really care about being the nice guy, just the winner. Personally I respect people who are true to themselves and it's a quality I admire in Schumacher, and I don't think either Webber or Vettel are being true to themselves here.

[Salamander]

The worst part here is not Vettel failing to follow orders but his behavior after the race. I'd find him much more likable if he could just man up and just admit what he did and maybe tell us why he did it. Instead, he starts to cry foul that he shouldn't have done it and that he didn't do it on purpose and whatever... Man the bathplug up Sebastian!

This right here. This is the problem I have with Vettel. He has the same hunger to win at all costs that Senna had, that Schumacher had, but those guys were never sorry. Yet there's Vettel, saying he's sorry, still trying to look like a nice guy. Nobody buys it, Sebastian.

It's a hard one to call, as Schumacher in particular gets vilified in the British press for not apologising - the nearest he has ever really got to it is saying there are things he would do differently. I think Vettel is apologising more because Red Bull have got a bit upset with him, rather than that he's genuinely sorry for what he did, and wants to preserve his nice guy image. Schumi didn't really care about being the nice guy, just the winner. Personally I respect people who are true to themselves and it's a quality I admire in Schumacher, and I don't think either Webber or Vettel are being true to themselves here.

How exactly is Webber not being true to himself? He drove a great race, backed off because Red Bull ordered them to hold positions, then Vettel ignores that despite Webber having done the same for Vettel in the past. So he's gone and made his displeasure with the situation very clear. That's how Webber's always operated, he's always been one to speak his mind.

I do agree with you about Schumacher and Vettel though - I can at least respect Schumacher for being honest about himself, if not for being a respectful racer. Vettel is not honest about himself.

[pablo_h]

Today is a case in point - it must be clear to everyone that the nature of the discussion would be massively different if Vettel's and Webber's roles were reversed.

You mean just swap roles today, or you mean swap them all throughout history, ie being swamped at first corners when they were 1-2, turkey, wing-gate, webber being multiple WDC, team comments and behaviour etc etc.
If you mean all that, then I agree, if you mean just today, then you are ignoring everything that matters because only one driver has been at the losing end through all that, and that was the driver leading most of the race today, who got shafted.
But if Webber was multiple WDC, was getting the most love from the team, did the dirty on his team mate multiple times, then if he was second and overtook Vettel when the team said not to, then Webber would face the same criticism today that Vettel is currently receiving.
Not easy to swap names for a day, there's a bit of context you can't ignore.

No Webber fan with blinkers on here, he lost it in Korea 2010 and that was his chance, and Vettel is faster. But this is a different kettle of fish. When Marko disapproves of Vettel, he's done something very wrong.

[LellaLombardi]

How exactly is Webber not being true to himself? He drove a great race, backed off because Red Bull ordered them to hold positions, then Vettel ignores that despite Webber having done the same for Vettel in the past. So he's gone and made his displeasure with the situation very clear. That's how Webber's always operated, he's always been one to speak his mind.

I do agree with you about Schumacher and Vettel though - I can at least respect Schumacher for being honest about himself, if not for being a respectful racer. Vettel is not honest about himself.

Webber is not true to himself because he tries to present himself as a tough, no-nonsense Aussie Grit racer. Yet in spite of Red Bull showing clear favouritism towards Vettel for several years, which he clearly isn't happy with, he stays with them. It's like staying with a unfaithful husband.

[Warren Hughes]

Today is a case in point - it must be clear to everyone that the nature of the discussion would be massively different if Vettel's and Webber's roles were reversed.

You mean just swap roles today, or you mean swap them all throughout history, ie being swamped at first corners when they were 1-2, turkey, wing-gate, webber being multiple WDC, team comments and behaviour etc etc.
If you mean all that, then I agree, if you mean just today, then you are ignoring everything that matters because only one driver has been at the losing end through all that, and that was the driver leading most of the race today, who got shafted.
But if Webber was multiple WDC, was getting the most love from the team, did the dirty on his team mate multiple times, then if he was second and overtook Vettel when the team said not to, then Webber would face the same criticism today that Vettel is currently receiving.
Not easy to swap names for a day, there's a bit of context you can't ignore.

No Webber fan with blinkers on here, he lost it in Korea 2010 and that was his chance, and Vettel is faster. But this is a different kettle of fish. When Marko disapproves of Vettel, he's done something very wrong.

That's exactly my point. To look at events objectively you have to disregard what you call 'context', or else there's always going to be an inherent bias colouring your view. I'm not saying that's wrong and I'm certainly not criticising anybody, all I'm saying is that our own perception - as outsiders - affects the way we think about who's right and who's wrong and the reasons for what happened, both today and in past events such as the Villeneuve-Pironi example that someone mentioned.

[MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx]

So... who actually came out of this race with some credit then? Virtually every time seemed to manage to go home disappointed or miserable

Red Bull:Controversy over team orders and drivers unhappy with each other.
Mercedes:Ditto.Plus Lewis can't tell one pit from another.
Ferrari:Well Massa was OK in 5th.Alonso dispatched on first lap
Lotus:6th and 7th rather poor after Australia,and Kimi seemed needled with Nico.
Sauber:8th and 12th rather dismal,and Nico seemed needled with Kimi.
McLaren:9th and a comical attempt at a pit stop that could have ended badly.
Toro Rosso:Ricciardo doing OK until retiring just before the end,and Vergne almost managed to wipe out Pic in the pit lane
Williams:11th for Bottas not bad.Maldonado-dismal.Anonymous apart from the usual skittering
Marussia:Promising-Bianchi 13th is seeming to be punching above his weight,and Chilton 16th is not bad.
Caterham:14th and 15th won't be too disappointing.Still seemed to be rather womblelike though.
Force India:Oh geez.Have Andrea Moda been given a special guest appearance doing their pit stops??

[Shadaza]

The racing between Webber and Vettel was really incredible and I think is an example of how DRS and the tires are supposed to work, used to push the drivers in the right direction so they can battle. Not the usual "Use the DRS zones to pass" or "man on good tires breezes past man on crap tires."

[Jocke1]

mclaren y u poo pitstops

Pretty sure that's the worst post of all time.

[dr-baker]

Glad I'm not the only one who thought 'Imola 1982' after today's race.

Also, it is quite unfair to say that Vettel is on an egomaniacal power trip when he was simply trying to win the race. I seem to remember Michael Schumacher or Fernando Alonso doing that multiple times and no one questioned their moral integrity.

Well, Schumacher's moral integrity was already shot after Jerez 1997.

Exactly what I thought, BCS. Only I was thinking Adelaide 1994 instead of Jerez 1997...

[eytl]

Some very valid points have been made in the posts above. To address some of them ...

I agree with Ross Prawn that the current limitations caused by the tyres does have the potential to cause problems in that teams are often required to inhibit drivers' natural instincts. It's unlike, say, the 1980s when drivers to a large extent had to moderate themselves and make strategic calls on the run. Now drivers are being asked to stick tightly to a plan determined in the backrooms.

Having said that, to my mind that doesn't change the issue when it comes to the Red Bull situation. Team orders to hold position after the final stop were also made during the refuelling/sprint format of the 2000s.

I also take Warren Hughes' comment about racers being lauded. That being said, I don't recall off the top of my head a situation where Senna or Mansell flagrantly disobeyed a team order in the name of "racing". Imola '89 was indeed an agreement purely between Prost and Senna and Senna exploited a loophole in the agreement caused by the fact the race was restarting. Plus, when it comes to Senna, I'll go on the record as always having preferred Prost over Ayrton's win-at-all-costs mentality (which, I might add, doesn't mean I don't recognise the political games which Alain was known to play).

And the point is, Webber did race hard - on his out-lap. There was great wheel-to-wheel stuff for half a lap or so. I can't believe Horner would have made the order in the middle of that but he probably allowed them to sort themselves out before making the order later that lap. I don't think you can praise Vettel for wanting to race if the other guy didn't believe he was fighting anymore. Going back to Villeneuve-Pironi at Imola 1982, this (amongst the other feelings of betrayal and hurt to his honour) was one of Villeneuve's frustrations. If he knew he was genuinely battling Pironi, then bring it on. He didn't realise he was still in a fight. Same here with Mark. What might he have done differently, eg in terms of engine mix, how he came out of the last corner at the end of lap 45, if he knew Vettel fully intended to use DRS to have a go at making a pass?

As for the "Schumacher was a bastard but he's still admired" line of argument, the key difference is that everyone knew the lie of the land at Ferrari. You can even call his set-in-stone number 1 status as being part of his drive to win and what made the Ferrari juggernaut so fearsome. But that is the key issue here. Red Bull have a driver equality policy. Webber is promised equal machinery and an equal shot. He has a good relationship with Dietrich Mateschitz and he co-owns a GP3 team with Horner. (This is where I disagree with LellaLombardi about Mark not being true to himself because he sticks with an unfaithful husband - he sticks when them because they promise him, and give him enough signs to prove, that he has an equal shot.) The order made was a function of that.

But what I've been saying - and I agree with CarlosFerreira in this - is that the coddling environment created around Vettel has allowed him to believe the team is not serious about that purported policy and he is free to put himself above the team. I believe Seb was genuinely shocked that no-one - Newey, Horner, even Marko - have sided with him, hence the half-hearted apologies.

That is the real culprit here - the disconnect between what Red Bull have said (and have often done) over the years, and the unspoken attitudes they have allowed to fester at the same time.

If Red Bull are serious about driver equality, then the lost 7 points matter as much to Webber as they would have to Vettel. Here's where I don't agree with the "what if Seb needed the 7 points in the last round" argument. What if Mark turns out to be Red Bull's title contender this year, like Eddie Irvine in 1999? Stranger things have happened. He could be the one needing the 7 points in Brazil.

I'd go so far as to say that if Red Bull are serious about equality, Vettel should be ordered to cede a victory back to Webber next time they are 1-2. At the moment, Horner's comments concern me in that they suggest that, apart from having given Seb a bollocking, he has got a slap on the wrist but otherwise gotten away with it. It will be interesting to see if Seb ever receives a sanction where it actually hurts - in terms of his pride and in terms of championship points.

At the end of the day, I also take Warren Hughes' comment about inherent biases and context, and yes I am a one-eyed Australian. And as much as I follow F1 as a sport, I also strongly believe in adhering to authority, and I accept that F1 is a team sport as well as an individual sport where team orders have always been a part of the game (e.g. the 1950s when number 2 drivers even handed their cars over the team's star driver - and who says a bad word about Fangio these days?). There was no justification for Vettel's actions and his belief that he was above his team's authority is a product of the environment he's been in for the last decade or so.

[Warren Hughes]

I agree with you, eytl, about obeying those in authority over you; from the Red Bull team point of view there's no doubt Vettel was in the wrong. However from the fans' point of view - and taking on board the valid point that it wasn't a fair fight as Webber wasn't expecting it - it was exactly what we want to see!

[CarlosFerreira]

I was talking about the race with my girlfriend when we realised something: it's not surprising Lewis stopped at the McLaren garage; the surprise is the McLaren mechanics didn't service his car...

[the Masked Lapwing]

After much swearing, I attempted to look at the situation from an unbiased point of view. It didn't work. Vettel is still an ass.
I don't buy the excuse of him needing the points. There are 17 whole races left, surely Vettel can make up 7 points in that time. Webber would need them more to try and take second.
And then there's that apology, which is a whole different story...

[Earnard Beccelstone]

Arrrrrrgh.

Vettle. Toys. Pram.

Its the hypocrisy that galled me most.

Interesting how Seb complained that Mark was too slow earlier in the race, basically requesting team orders to manage Webber out of the way.

Then, when team orders were in play, he blithely disregards them, all while Mark is racing at a reduced engine mode - shades of Hungary 2010 in there, but at least Vettle has learned some racecraft over the last three seasons.

On the Silverstone 2011 issue, I was surprised that Mark was willing to push so hard during the whole "Mark, maintain the gap" episode. But, the fact remains that he didn't pass Seb. Whether he had the speed to do so may or may not be a separate issue, depending on your particular favourite driver. Secondly, Malaysia 2013 was for first/second, Silverstone was for the minor podium places.

[CoopsII]

I was talking about the race with my girlfriend when we realised something: it's not surprising Lewis stopped at the McLaren garage; the surprise is the McLaren mechanics didn't service his car...

Can I just admit now that for half a second when he pitted and the Mclaren lads waved him on I didnt realise and thought "Damn, they're not ready for him!"

Only half a second, mind.

I worked it out by the end of the race.

[Shizuka]

Grosjean's more light hearted comments about wanting a cold beer after the race made me smile

Yes, that was a feel good moment from him - it seemed that he had a better set up for the race than Kimi, who's had two off-track moments and many countersteer especially in Turn 1 and 2.

[CarlosFerreira]

I was talking about the race with my girlfriend when we realised something: it's not surprising Lewis stopped at the McLaren garage; the surprise is the McLaren mechanics didn't service his car...

Can I just admit now that for half a second when he pitted and the Mclaren lads waved him on I didnt realise and thought "Damn, they're not ready for him!"

So did we.

[David AGS]

I thought JB drove a great race should have finished 5th. A great improvement compared to last week.

He thought a podium was in reach, not sure maybe he kept his tyres in great shape and ran longer than most.

If the top 4 collided, JB would have won. Imagine that!

[TomWazzleshaw]

I was talking about the race with my girlfriend when we realised something: it's not surprising Lewis stopped at the McLaren garage; the surprise is the McLaren mechanics didn't service his car...

Can I just admit now that for half a second when he pitted and the Mclaren lads waved him on I didnt realise and thought "Damn, they're not ready for him!"

I had a similar moment when I asked myself why the McLaren guys were simply letting him drive through. Then I remembered that he moved over to Ross Brawn's mob. What really got me though is when Lewis went around the Lotus bay to get to the Merc pit when he could have driven through instead.

[GwilymJJames]

One thing I noticed was that Hamilton today - and Button in 2011, and whichever Toro Rosso guy it was in 2009 - got no penalty for stopping in the wrong box. Which has got me thinking... Brazil, Alonso v Vettel... Felipe go to the Red Bull garage!

[Sublime_FA11C]

A few rants/thoughs

One thing i did not see mentioned regarding Vettel's battle with Webber, and this may explain why even Marko was very upset about it and came as close as he ever will to admonishing Vettel. Vettels's choice to ignore Hold Station orders decided before the race started (Horner and Webber both mentioned that there was several plans for the late stage of the race) has put Red Bull's WCC challenge in question. He can get away with murder, because murder doesn't affect the championship but this does.

I belive Vettel haters and fans alike can agree that he does not need Webber one bit to seal his driver's title, BUT Red Bull NEEDS Webber to seal the constructors title. That is the prize they are after. No other driver can replace Mark right now and reliably win the title for them. Webber is the key man for two reasons:
1. He is dependable and capable
2. He's not a threat to Seb's goal (vital because it ensures best performances/morale there)

It may not be fair to Mark, but he may not be good enough to beat Vettel so it's fair enough.

Webber got slapped in the face, and not with a hand either.
That's why Horner looked so pained when Webber flat out said that both drivers were instructed to hold station and cruise home, but Seb disobeyed orders and will get protection as usual. That could also be why Helmut Marko of all people was struggleing for words to use to condemn strongly Seb's move (he doesn't really use those often). The TEAM was hurt by that overtake because they need both drivers to perform well and win the WCC. Webber's loyalty and professionalism is too strong to abandon the team in my opinion, but his heart might not be in it anymore.

It also raises an interesting question about what exactly made Vettel go for broke and squash any Webber title hopes right away. It was Vettel's own judgement to come in off the Inters and switch to slicks that handed the lead and the win to Webber. He had no base to claim the win was his because he squandered it (much like Massa, who reacted to Vettel's early stop).

I have to question Red Bull's logic in their last pitstop. If the plan was to hold station after the stop, and Vettel was coming in first. Why did they tell him on the radio that he was getting scrubbed medium tyres? And why scrubbed mediums at all? Are those tyres not a weapon of choice for attacking? Was the plan to subtly give Vettel a chance to close the gap on his free lap while Webber pitted?

Webber saw the attack coming a mile away and chose the most defensive lines through the early corners. Vettel had him like a sitting duck on cold tyres and it's a miracle Webber could even try to fight back. Martin Brundle mentioned after the race that on the exit of the corner where Vettel finally made the move stick, Webber had the option of keeping pace up and effectively running his teammate of the road unless he backed off. In fairness Vettel had done enough to overtake and Webber knew better that to push him wide, but had it been any other car it's exactly what he would have done.

Umm... hold station anyone?


On Mercedes' side, there's... well, there's a similar story but one that played out more subtly. The Hold Station order was given because both cars were fuelled short (Mercs expected rain and safety car periods, but the gamble didn't pay off) and could not race at full speed. Hamilton in particular was low. Rosberg was faster in the end and it would seem fair to let him past since Hamilton was stricken with a problem. But here Mercedes found themselves in unfamiliar territory. The choice was a difficult one. Either order Hamilton to move over and remove himself from the podium, or sow the seeds of discontent and disbelief in Rosberg who has been with the team longer and through their difficult period. Truth is, that both drivers were low on fuel and it was late enough in the race and the team may have made the best possible call. Hamilton was asked to push hard in his third stint to scare the Red Bulls so if in the end his car was worse off, it was not his fault or at least not entirely. Rosberg was slightly fortunate in catching Hamilton, so i wonder why Hamilton talked up how his teammate drove a smarter race and had a better car in the end so probably deserved more than himself to be on the podium.

Interestingly enough he seemed annoyed in the podium room, and may well have had a few less favorable comments in mind. But then the icy tension of two Red Bull drivers followed him in the room, and the exchange between Webber and Vettel during the podium interview possibly made him change his mind and respond more favorably towards his teammate.

Those who cry foul must remember that Rosberg only caught Ham late in the race, where it would make most sense to hold station and preserve a 3-4 finish. A valuable result for the team. Brawn himself said moments after the race that there should be no friction because both drivers understand the order and it could have happened the other way around. With two about equal drivers Mercedes has no reason to favor one or the other.

EDIT - btw, the race was a cracker.

[CarlosFerreira]

Webber saw the attack coming a mile away and chose the most defensive lines through the early corners. Vettel had him like a sitting duck on cold tyres and it's a miracle Webber could even try to fight back. Martin Brundle mentioned after the race that on the exit of the corner where Vettel finally made the move stick, Webber had the option of keeping pace up and effectively running his teammate of the road unless he backed off. In fairness Vettel had done enough to overtake and Webber knew better that to push him wide, but had it been any other car it's exactly what he would have done.

This is a good point, and a lot more could be made of it. Webber could have run Vettel into the kerb on T4, but clearly chose not to. Once again he has shown for Vettel and the team an amount of respect that Vettel does not reciprocate (I actually think Red Bull respect Mark a lot more than they're given credit for).

On Mercedes' side, there's... well, there's a similar story but one that played out more subtly. The Hold Station order was given because both cars were fuelled short (Mercs expected rain and safety car periods, but the gamble didn't pay off) and could not race at full speed. Hamilton in particular was low. Rosberg was faster in the end and it would seem fair to let him past since Hamilton was stricken with a problem. But here Mercedes found themselves in unfamiliar territory. The choice was a difficult one. Either order Hamilton to move over and remove himself from the podium, or sow the seeds of discontent and disbelief in Rosberg who has been with the team longer and through their difficult period. Truth is, that both drivers were low on fuel and it was late enough in the race and the team may have made the best possible call. Hamilton was asked to push hard in his third stint to scare the Red Bulls so if in the end his car was worse off, it was not his fault or at least not entirely. Rosberg was slightly fortunate in catching Hamilton, so i wonder why Hamilton talked up how his teammate drove a smarter race and had a better car in the end so probably deserved more than himself to be on the podium.

Arguably Hamilton learned something from the problems in 2007 (not to mention being beaten by Button in 2011), and he knows these things go around and come around. He'll want to preserve a good working environment in Mercedes. Besides, I get the impression that he has genuine respect for Rosberg.
On the other hand, Rosberg is known for falling asleep when he's got his team mates well covered, and Hamilton is forcing him to up his game. It could well be that the Mercedes boys will bring the best in each other out.

[Klon]

I have to question Red Bull's logic in their last pitstop. If the plan was to hold station after the stop, and Vettel was coming in first. Why did they tell him on the radio that he was getting scrubbed medium tyres? And why scrubbed mediums at all? Are those tyres not a weapon of choice for attacking? Was the plan to subtly give Vettel a chance to close the gap on his free lap while Webber pitted?

Well, Webber's position was a lot safer than Vettel's who had to deal with the Mercedes (and it is not too wrong to assume RBR did not know of Mercedes' fuel trouble) cars. In case he ended up behind both or one Mercedes after the stop Vettel would need to be able to overtake them to give the team the best result, therefore he was given attacking tyres and it was simply assumed that he would only use this to save his rear from Hamilton/Rosberg.

Rosberg was slightly fortunate in catching Hamilton, so i wonder why Hamilton talked up how his teammate drove a smarter race and had a better car in the end so probably deserved more than himself to be on the podium.

Hamilton likes to see himself as a "pure racer" (just like Senna lololololol just kill me, please) and was therefore not happy to be gifted a third place like this. Although, yes, I can imagine your point of Hamilton noting the destructive atmosphere of the Red Bull drivers and deciding to adapt his PR statement.

One thing I noticed was that Hamilton today - and Button in 2011, and whichever Toro Rosso guy it was in 2009 - got no penalty for stopping in the wrong box. Which has got me thinking... Brazil, Alonso v Vettel... Felipe go to the Red Bull garage!

Well, they basically just drove through the box so it didn't really hurt anyone so nobody bothered to protest anything. If Massa would block the Red Bull pit place at a critical juncture you can bet everything that RBR staff will be at the stewards' office before it even has happened.

[DanielPT]

I mostly agree with eytl here. Vettel disobeyed a team order and placed himself before the team making his team principal looking like a fool. One that, for the observer, is looking like it's sole job is filling that position and be quiet. Not that he didn't look like that before anyway... This whole shenanigan came because the team led Vettel to think he is the most important piece, by far, in the Red Bull machine. Although I would like to see John Watson's call for a one race suspension, I believe it will be near impossible it to happen. I cannot see another way which leads to the team gaining the authority over its driver. A warning or a fine would show Vettel that he indeed can get away with it and leave a similar situation to his whims. Vettel deserves the flak he is getting and from now on it will be hard for him to win people over with just being nice. People will obviously think that he is being hypocrite, just like they did when he issued his apology.

What I think that hasn't been thoroughly discussed is what about Webber in this saga. I will be honest, I want Webber to do well and my first reaction to the events leading to incident and the incident itself was outrage. Thing is, afterwards, I changed this emotion for the one of disappointment. I got disappointed that Webber, feeling betrayed and in shock it must be said, decided to fall back and not fight back. Sure, he pushed Vettel against the wall when he did his move but he could have stalked him afterwards nonetheless. I know that Webber only assured the points went to the team and that vengeance is served cold. And also he was on the hard tyres while Vettel was on mediums, but he still lost too much time in the last few laps. What I make of this, 24 hours later, is that Webber is broken as a racing driver and it has been like this since probably 2011. The grit isn't there any more. His drives last year and early this year lack the intensity that made him say "not too bad for a number 2". His comments about Vettel being protected in some way reinforce this view of mine. I sure hope that what happened makes brings back some fire into Webber, but I am doubtful for two reasons: His age and the fact that once it is gone, then it is definitely gone. I think Webber might retire at the of the year.