The 2013 Chinese GP Thread

Post by **mario** » 31 Mar 2013, 11:16

Although it is perhaps a little early to open this thread, there is some news from Caterham about their plans for the free practise sessions - it has been confirmed that Pic will be handing his car over to Ma Qing Hua for the first practise session in China (there is also a suggestion that Ma might be in the car a few times this season - van der Garde has confirmed that he is having to sacrifice at least four free practise sessions this season, with Rossi taking over the car for FP1 in Bahrain). http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2924 ... -sessions/
It does make you wonder if everything is quite as OK as Caterham have been saying things are - it's very early on in the season to be calling up the pay drivers for practise sessions, and the rumour mills have had plenty to work with given Kovalainen's presence in Malaysia as a guest of the team.

IdeFan · Post by **IdeFan** » 31 Mar 2013, 11:41

Compared to Marussia, Caterham have spent lavishly over the last three years with little in the way of results.

- They had two paid drivers for two years, and one last year.

- They've had two lawsuits (with Force India over the Aerolab wind tunnel and with Lotus/Proton over use of the Lotus name).

- They're using Renault engines and Red Bull gearboxes instead of the cheaper Cosworth.

I am struggling to see a sponsor on the car which isn't owned by Fernandez personally, pay drivers aside he is essentially funding the team out of his own pocket and that can't go on forever. Something has to give, and it looks like more pay drivers.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 31 Mar 2013, 12:00

Getting drivers to run practice sessions isn't completely new, I remember Vergne getting a crack at the Toro Rosso in 2011. With that being said, I don't think Ma and Rossi are up to the job and are obvious pay drivers. This signifies that they are in trouble, which is not very surprising for a team which has spent three and a bit seasons not scoring points.

FMecha · Post by **FMecha** » 31 Mar 2013, 12:01

IdeFan wrote:Compared to Marussia, Caterham have spent lavishly over the last three years with little in the way of results.

- They had two paid drivers for two years, and one last year.

- They've had two lawsuits (with Force India over the Aerolab wind tunnel and with Lotus/Proton over use of the Lotus name).

- They're using Renault engines and Red Bull gearboxes instead of the cheaper Cosworth.

I am struggling to see a sponsor on the car which isn't owned by Fernandez personally, pay drivers aside he is essentially funding the team out of his own pocket and that can't go on forever. Something has to give, and it looks like more pay drivers.

Toyota of reject teams? :lol:

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 31 Mar 2013, 12:43

Looking at the back of the grid, I find it surprising that after all these years, there just seems to be a Virgin/Manor thread and an HRT thread but no Caterham thread - or at one point maybe there was and it just disappeared. Maybe it's time to resurrect the Fondmetal Team Malaysia Thread if it exists.

As for the paydrivers' galore over at Leafield, it's all because Richard Branson hasn't paid up hid bet debt yet. He finally needs to put his AirAsia stewardess outfit where his mouth is.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 31 Mar 2013, 13:12

IdeFan wrote:I am struggling to see a sponsor on the car which isn't owned by Fernandez personally

CNN is all I can think of...

Post by **mario** » 31 Mar 2013, 13:38

Shizuka wrote:
IdeFan wrote:I am struggling to see a sponsor on the car which isn't owned by Fernandez personally

CNN is all I can think of...

There are few that are not owned by Fernandez but are tied into his wider business interests - for example, there is General Electric, but that deal seems to be tied into his agreement to purchase engines from their aviation division (similarly, the sponsorship deal with EADS seems to be related to aircraft orders, whilst Safran, another sponsor, is a specialist aerospace supplier). About the only deal which seems to be reasonably independent would be the deal with McGregor, the fashion company, but that isn't a major deal as far as I can tell.

Yannick wrote:Looking at the back of the grid, I find it surprising that after all these years, there just seems to be a Virgin/Manor thread and an HRT thread but no Caterham thread - or at one point maybe there was and it just disappeared. Maybe it's time to resurrect the Fondmetal Team Malaysia Thread if it exists.

As for the paydrivers' galore over at Leafield, it's all because Richard Branson hasn't paid up hid bet debt yet. He finally needs to put his AirAsia stewardess outfit where his mouth is.

I believe that there was a thread dedicated to them, and for a while there was a fairly lively discussion in that thread around the time when the lawsuit between themselves and Group Lotus broke out over the use of the Lotus name in F1.

However, it just seems to be the case that, over the last 12 months or so, their popularity has slid a fair bit - they took a lot of flak for the way that they dumped Trulli in the pre-season tests last year in favour of Petrov, and I think that their tendency to talk up their competitiveness over the off season only to have failed to deliver several times has grated somewhat too. I can recall that they claimed more than once that they would introduce a big upgrade that would move them closer to the front - and they are making similar claims now, saying that the CT03 is due to be heavily revised in Spain (the current car supposedly being a hybrid car that is a sort of stop gap measure). Rarely, though, have the upgrades actually delivered on those promises, and I suppose that some have tired of that talk.
Also, although Marussia and HRT did hire pay drivers, at least in their cases the teams not only admitted but publicly justified their stances - Caterham, by comparison, went from a paid line up to a pay driver line up very quickly, and didn't try to sugar the pill when announcing that either.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 31 Mar 2013, 20:20

mario wrote:
Shizuka wrote:
IdeFan wrote:I am struggling to see a sponsor on the car which isn't owned by Fernandez personally

CNN is all I can think of...

There are few that are not owned by Fernandez but are tied into his wider business interests - for example, there is General Electric, but that deal seems to be tied into his agreement to purchase engines from their aviation division (similarly, the sponsorship deal with EADS seems to be related to aircraft orders, whilst Safran, another sponsor, is a specialist aerospace supplier). About the only deal which seems to be reasonably independent would be the deal with McGregor, the fashion company, but that isn't a major deal as far as I can tell.

McGregor was brought in by Giedo van der Garde. Last season they were the primary sponsor of Caterham's GP2 team, for which GvdG drove, but were not present on the F1 team's car. This is definitely vdG's work rather than the team's, as he has been back by McGregor at least since driving for Barwa Addax in GP2, possibly even longer that I simply don't remember. The team can't really be credited with landing a sponsor all on their own on this one.

Things do look bleak on the sponsorship front. GE, Airbus, Safran, EADS, and AirAsia can all be linked to Fernandes' airline business (through self promotion or discount deals for his airline). McGregor as already mentioned is van der Garde's personal contribution, and the small Dell/Intel logos are highly likely to be in exchange for free equipment.

EQ8 energy drink has scaled back their sponsorship, to the point that the only logo I could find of theirs on the car is underneath the exhaust. Next to this is HPE Clothing, a little known sports performance clothing brand. I'm don't know either but this may also be a product for logo swap deal.

Oh, and there's a QPR logo on the bargeboard. Again, shameless self-promotion by Fernandes.

I would agree that Caterham's budget is starting to get extremely stretched.

Post by **mario** » 31 Mar 2013, 22:20

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:McGregor was brought in by Giedo van der Garde. Last season they were the primary sponsor of Caterham's GP2 team, for which GvdG drove, but were not present on the F1 team's car. This is definitely vdG's work rather than the team's, as he has been back by McGregor at least since driving for Barwa Addax in GP2, possibly even longer that I simply don't remember. The team can't really be credited with landing a sponsor all on their own on this one.

Things do look bleak on the sponsorship front. GE, Airbus, Safran, EADS, and AirAsia can all be linked to Fernandes' airline business (through self promotion or discount deals for his airline). McGregor as already mentioned is van der Garde's personal contribution, and the small Dell/Intel logos are highly likely to be in exchange for free equipment.

EQ8 energy drink has scaled back their sponsorship, to the point that the only logo I could find of theirs on the car is underneath the exhaust. Next to this is HPE Clothing, a little known sports performance clothing brand. I'm don't know either but this may also be a product for logo swap deal.

Oh, and there's a QPR logo on the bargeboard. Again, shameless self-promotion by Fernandes.

I would agree that Caterham's budget is starting to get extremely stretched.

I thought that EQ8 were no longer officially a sponsor of the team - Caterham list them as just a supplier, as are HPE, so they might not even be contributing that much, if anything, to Caterham's budget. As for Dell, yes, it looks like they are providing Caterham with electronic hardware and technical support in return for the advertising space, so there is no direct contribution to the team budget (although, on the other hand, nor is there a direct cost).

I have to agree, though, that maybe Caterham's budget no longer is quite as secure as perhaps we thought. Now, the team perhaps isn't in the sort of financial straights that saw HRT eventually shut up shop, since, as far as I am aware, the team hasn't been involved in financial disputes with their suppliers or team members.
Still, it does seem as if their efforts to drum up more sponsorship has stalled a little - Fernandes seems to have tried with multiple parties, but the talks seem to have either collapsed or he has seen another team get there first (for example, there was a rumour that Fernandes was in talks with Blackberry in mid 2012, but it looks like they decided that the deal they eventually struck with Mercedes offered a better return). They still seem to be keeping afloat, but I have to agree with you and wonder if perhaps Fernandes's resources are beginning to be spread a little too thinly...

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 01 Apr 2013, 08:40

Vettle suspended, replaced by buemi?

http://real-motorsport.com/2013/04/01/v ... -by-buemi/

Then again, it IS April fools day today :lol:

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 01 Apr 2013, 09:31

roblomas52 wrote:Vettle suspended, replaced by buemi?

http://real-motorsport.com/2013/04/01/v ... -by-buemi/

Then again, it IS April fools day today

Buemi is not a "fresh face". :roll:

Divina_Galica · Post by **Divina_Galica** » 01 Apr 2013, 11:37

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:Oh, and there's a QPR logo on the bargeboard. Again, shameless self-promotion by Fernandes.

Nothing like reinforcing failure....

DG

Post by **mario** » 01 Apr 2013, 12:12

roblomas52 wrote:Vettle suspended, replaced by buemi?

http://real-motorsport.com/2013/04/01/v ... -by-buemi/

Then again, it IS April fools day today

Which is why I suspect that this is nothing more than a rather weak attempt at a practical joke - the odds of Red Bull actually going through with such a move is rather remote.
About the only other bit of news which has been published today is the more credible news from Pirelli that they are not going to change either the tyre allocation or the construction process of the tyres, despite pressure from one or two teams, that have been announced so far (i.e. until Bahrain, which is the last race for which the tyre allocation has already been announced - I believe that China will see the medium and soft tyres, IIRC, whilst Bahrain sees the hard and soft tyres being used).

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 01 Apr 2013, 12:29

roblomas52 wrote:Vettle suspended, replaced by buemi?

http://real-motorsport.com/2013/04/01/v ... -by-buemi/

Then again, it IS April fools day today

No way that is happening, although I wish it really did happen! Dang April Fool's Day!

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 01 Apr 2013, 16:48

FMecha wrote:
IdeFan wrote:Compared to Marussia, Caterham have spent lavishly over the last three years with little in the way of results.

- They had two paid drivers for two years, and one last year.

- They've had two lawsuits (with Force India over the Aerolab wind tunnel and with Lotus/Proton over use of the Lotus name).

- They're using Renault engines and Red Bull gearboxes instead of the cheaper Cosworth.

I am struggling to see a sponsor on the car which isn't owned by Fernandez personally, pay drivers aside he is essentially funding the team out of his own pocket and that can't go on forever. Something has to give, and it looks like more pay drivers.

Toyota of reject teams?

It also rivals Red Bull in NASCAR, another big money low results effort. The difference is that the pay driver Red Bull had in their last season in NASCAR was Kasey Kahne who under NASCAR regulations wasn't allowed to drive a 5th Hendrick entry, but was under a Hendrick contract. Caterham would be lucky to get a pay driver of that quality making the cars look merely mediocre instead of terrible.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 01 Apr 2013, 17:09

Onxy Wrecked wrote:
FMecha wrote:
IdeFan wrote:Compared to Marussia, Caterham have spent lavishly over the last three years with little in the way of results.

- They had two paid drivers for two years, and one last year.

- They've had two lawsuits (with Force India over the Aerolab wind tunnel and with Lotus/Proton over use of the Lotus name).

- They're using Renault engines and Red Bull gearboxes instead of the cheaper Cosworth.

I am struggling to see a sponsor on the car which isn't owned by Fernandez personally, pay drivers aside he is essentially funding the team out of his own pocket and that can't go on forever. Something has to give, and it looks like more pay drivers.

Toyota of reject teams?

It also rivals Red Bull in NASCAR, another big money low results effort. The difference is that the pay driver Red Bull had in their last season in NASCAR was Kasey Kahne who under NASCAR regulations wasn't allowed to drive a 5th Hendrick entry, but was under a Hendrick contract. Caterham would be lucky to get a pay driver of that quality making the cars look merely mediocre instead of terrible.

They did have one, his name was Vitaly Petrov.

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 01 Apr 2013, 19:13

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
They did have one, his name was Vitaly Petrov.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 02 Apr 2013, 16:45

Onxy Wrecked wrote:
FMecha wrote:
IdeFan wrote:Compared to Marussia, Caterham have spent lavishly over the last three years with little in the way of results.

- They had two paid drivers for two years, and one last year.

- They've had two lawsuits (with Force India over the Aerolab wind tunnel and with Lotus/Proton over use of the Lotus name).

- They're using Renault engines and Red Bull gearboxes instead of the cheaper Cosworth.

I am struggling to see a sponsor on the car which isn't owned by Fernandez personally, pay drivers aside he is essentially funding the team out of his own pocket and that can't go on forever. Something has to give, and it looks like more pay drivers.

Toyota of reject teams?

It also rivals Red Bull in NASCAR, another big money low results effort. The difference is that the pay driver Red Bull had in their last season in NASCAR was Kasey Kahne who under NASCAR regulations wasn't allowed to drive a 5th Hendrick entry, but was under a Hendrick contract. Caterham would be lucky to get a pay driver of that quality making the cars look merely mediocre instead of terrible.

The RBR NASCAR Division made the mistake of signing with Toyota (due to their prior relantionship with them in the old IRL), who were/are awful in NASCAR (unless your name is Gibbs). They had to run the early TRD engines which were so bad they are still the butt of jokes today. Hell even with TRD merging with Gibbs engine shop, their motors are without question dead last in power, and especially reliabilty (Gibbs has a year this year, and 3 powertrain DNFs as well). Of course when your #1 driver is Brian "I-know-more-than-my-doctors" Vickers, you're screwed from day one.

wsrgo · Post by **wsrgo** » 04 Apr 2013, 04:44

As we approach the Chinese GP, it seems that Sutil has indeed been given the green flag to participate.. :roll:

I don't particularly hate him(apart from the obvious reasons) but it would have been fun to see an early season driver change.

Holy cow, just remembered that Force India haven't announced a third driver yet..

James Rossiter, anyone?

Zetec · Post by **Zetec** » 04 Apr 2013, 07:22

wsrgo wrote:James Rossiter, anyone?

James Rossiter is busy right now helping Colin Kolles develop the new Lotus T128 LMP2 prototype. That's no joke!

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 04 Apr 2013, 10:22

wsrgo wrote:As we approach the Chinese GP, it seems that Sutil has indeed been given the green flag to participate..

I don't particularly hate him(apart from the obvious reasons) but it would have been fun to see an early season driver change.

Holy cow, just remembered that Force India haven't announced a third driver yet..

James Rossiter, anyone?

Nick Heidfeld!

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 04 Apr 2013, 10:31

Stramala wrote:
wsrgo wrote:As we approach the Chinese GP, it seems that Sutil has indeed been given the green flag to participate..

I don't particularly hate him(apart from the obvious reasons) but it would have been fun to see an early season driver change.

Holy cow, just remembered that Force India haven't announced a third driver yet..

James Rossiter, anyone?

Kamui Kobayashi!

Fixed

Post by **mario** » 04 Apr 2013, 11:00

wsrgo wrote:As we approach the Chinese GP, it seems that Sutil has indeed been given the green flag to participate..

I don't particularly hate him(apart from the obvious reasons) but it would have been fun to see an early season driver change.

Holy cow, just remembered that Force India haven't announced a third driver yet..

James Rossiter, anyone?

I might be mistaken, but, from what I can tell, neither Mercedes, Williams, Toro Rosso or Force India have formally announced who their reserve/test drivers are either. They should have notified the FIA, though, given that having a named reserve driver is one of the conditions that has to be fulfilled when submitting your entry - in the case of Force India, I assume that Rossiter probably would be a named reserve as he should be eligible for a superlicence, having tested the VJM06 in pre-season testing.

wsrgo · Post by **wsrgo** » 04 Apr 2013, 12:19

mario wrote:
wsrgo wrote:As we approach the Chinese GP, it seems that Sutil has indeed been given the green flag to participate..

I don't particularly hate him(apart from the obvious reasons) but it would have been fun to see an early season driver change.

Holy cow, just remembered that Force India haven't announced a third driver yet..

James Rossiter, anyone?

I might be mistaken, but, from what I can tell, neither Mercedes, Williams, Toro Rosso or Force India have formally announced who their reserve/test drivers are either. They should have notified the FIA, though, given that having a named reserve driver is one of the conditions that has to be fulfilled when submitting your entry - in the case of Force India, I assume that Rossiter probably would be a named reserve as he should be eligible for a superlicence, having tested the VJM06 in pre-season testing.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too, although I did not know it was a mandatory thingie. Williams probably threw in Susie Wolff's name. I believe Toro Rosso has Sebby Buemi as a reserve, although I'm not sure if he can hold that post for two different teams(RBR too).

As for Mercedes, I haven't heard anything from them. Probably a toss-up between Sam Bird and Daniel Juncadella(2012 F3 Euroseries champ). One is in GP2, the other is in DTM.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 04 Apr 2013, 12:31

wsrgo wrote:I believe Toro Rosso has Sebby Buemi as a reserve, although I'm not sure if he can hold that post for two different teams(RBR too).

He was officially registered as the test driver for both teams last season, so one would presume it is also the case this season.

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 04 Apr 2013, 12:36

wsrgo wrote:
mario wrote:
wsrgo wrote:As we approach the Chinese GP, it seems that Sutil has indeed been given the green flag to participate..

I don't particularly hate him(apart from the obvious reasons) but it would have been fun to see an early season driver change.

Holy cow, just remembered that Force India haven't announced a third driver yet..

James Rossiter, anyone?

I might be mistaken, but, from what I can tell, neither Mercedes, Williams, Toro Rosso or Force India have formally announced who their reserve/test drivers are either. They should have notified the FIA, though, given that having a named reserve driver is one of the conditions that has to be fulfilled when submitting your entry - in the case of Force India, I assume that Rossiter probably would be a named reserve as he should be eligible for a superlicence, having tested the VJM06 in pre-season testing.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too, although I did not know it was a mandatory thingie. Williams probably threw in Susie Wolff's name. I believe Toro Rosso has Sebby Buemi as a reserve, although I'm not sure if he can hold that post for two different teams(RBR too).

As for Mercedes, I haven't heard anything from them. Probably a toss-up between Sam Bird and Daniel Juncadella(2012 F3 Euroseries champ). One is in GP2, the other is in DTM.

Bird is officially their reserve - Hartley would have been more likely than Juncadella.

Post by **mario** » 08 Apr 2013, 22:05

Finally, a bit of news worth posting in this thread again - Marussia have confirmed that they will be bringing in revised suspension components (an upgrade that they say was tested beforehand and now considered race ready) and revised front and rear brake ducts.
By the sounds of things, Booth seemed to suggest that Marussia will have a small stream of incremental updates for the next few races with a larger upgrade package due in Spain (which contrasts with the approach of some other teams, like Caterham and Williams, who have decided not to bring in incremental updates but instead spend more time spent developing the components and go for one large upgrade in Spain). http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/04/08/p ... sia-china/

I wonder if this upgrade package might be enough for Bianchi to start worrying the Williams drivers a bit more? Williams were talking about possibly revising the exhausts of the FW35 (and potentially going back to the design used on the FW34) for China, but it now sounds as if they are pushing that upgrade package back until the Spanish GP too. We saw that Bianchi was putting Bottas, Vergne and Hulkenberg under pressure in qualifying in Malaysia, after all, and Marussia said that they expected Malaysia to be one of their weaker races and China to be one of their stronger races...

razta · Post by **razta** » 09 Apr 2013, 01:57

My Merc bias -

Mercedes have a fairly substantial aero update coming up for China too

AMuS
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 91523.html
Wolff says

"We have provided more new parts for the race in China,"

And further elaborates that they're currently second behind RedBull overall

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 09 Apr 2013, 09:05

razta wrote:My Merc bias -

Mercedes have a fairly substantial aero update coming up for China too

AMuS
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 91523.html
Wolff says
"We have provided more new parts for the race in China,"

And further elaborates that they're currently second behind RedBull overall

Update? Oh dear...

Looking at the last 3/4 years, this is the point where they start turning into a midfield team.

Post by **mario** » 09 Apr 2013, 15:52

Further news from the Red Bull camp - they have announced that da Costa is being given the reserve driver role at the Chinese GP in place of Buemi for this race because Buemi will be competing in the Silverstone 6 Hours race WEC event and would therefore be unavailable should an emergency arise. Now, the role sounds more like it is symbolic than anything else, since the chances of da Costa ending up in the car are fairly low - I wonder, however, if the Toro Rosso drivers might be a little uncomfortable at the sign of da Costa getting a little closer to the F1 paddock...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106607

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 09 Apr 2013, 16:05

mario wrote:Further news from the Red Bull camp - they have announced that da Costa is being given the reserve driver role at the Chinese GP in place of Buemi for this race because Buemi will be competing in the Silverstone 6 Hours race WEC event and would therefore be unavailable should an emergency arise. Now, the role sounds more like it is symbolic than anything else, since the chances of da Costa ending up in the car are fairly low - I wonder, however, if the Toro Rosso drivers might be a little uncomfortable at the sign of da Costa getting a little closer to the F1 paddock...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106607

Ah yes, the traditional Red Bull seat game begins. Both Red Bull drivers will stop focusing on that coveted Toro Rosso drive and instead focusing in the intra-team battle for survival next year. Given previous drivers management lunacy displayed by the team, both Red Bull drivers are then odds on to leave the team next year and be replaced by 2 rookies... Wait, that's not right...

Post by **mario** » 09 Apr 2013, 16:43

DanielPT wrote:
mario wrote:Further news from the Red Bull camp - they have announced that da Costa is being given the reserve driver role at the Chinese GP in place of Buemi for this race because Buemi will be competing in the Silverstone 6 Hours race WEC event and would therefore be unavailable should an emergency arise. Now, the role sounds more like it is symbolic than anything else, since the chances of da Costa ending up in the car are fairly low - I wonder, however, if the Toro Rosso drivers might be a little uncomfortable at the sign of da Costa getting a little closer to the F1 paddock...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106607

Ah yes, the traditional Red Bull seat game begins. Both Red Bull drivers will stop focusing on that coveted Toro Rosso drive and instead focusing in the intra-team battle for survival next year. Given previous drivers management lunacy displayed by the team, both Red Bull drivers are then odds on to leave the team next year and be replaced by 2 rookies... Wait, that's not right...

It's more the fact that Alguersuari, Buemi and Ricciardo were all originally contracted as reserve drivers for Red Bull Racing before being moved to Toro Rosso (admittedly, Alguersuari was rushed into Toro Rosso because they sacked Bourdais only a few weeks later, but originally Alguersuari was only supposed to be a Red Bull reserve driver). The only driver who Red Bull haven't brought into the F1 paddock that way would be Vergne, who went directly to Toro Rosso: although the move is a temporary one, perhaps it serves as a small threat from Red Bull Racing to their drivers at Toro Rosso that they do have other eligible drivers in the wings.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 09 Apr 2013, 17:14

mario wrote:It's more the fact that Alguersuari, Buemi and Ricciardo were all originally contracted as reserve drivers for Red Bull Racing before being moved to Toro Rosso (admittedly, Alguersuari was rushed into Toro Rosso because they sacked Bourdais only a few weeks later, but originally Alguersuari was only supposed to be a Red Bull reserve driver). The only driver who Red Bull haven't brought into the F1 paddock that way would be Vergne, who went directly to Toro Rosso: although the move is a temporary one, perhaps it serves as a small threat from Red Bull Racing to their drivers at Toro Rosso that they do have other eligible drivers in the wings.

I did make a joke over there, but you are indeed right, IMO. This is just the beginning. Soon they will give Da Costa some FP's at Toro Rosso, perhaps justifying it with urgent cases like this. It looks to be STR and RBR modus operandi with their stable. What I find annoying is that they don't even try to assure some sort of continuation in the B team. They will probably have some comparison data between previous and current drivers due to the FP's sessions but still, I don't think it is enough and in real race conditions they don't have a clue if these two are better or worse than the previous two. Anyway, I think both Vergne and Ricciardo should start to be worried.

Post by **mario** » 09 Apr 2013, 20:15

DanielPT wrote:
mario wrote:It's more the fact that Alguersuari, Buemi and Ricciardo were all originally contracted as reserve drivers for Red Bull Racing before being moved to Toro Rosso (admittedly, Alguersuari was rushed into Toro Rosso because they sacked Bourdais only a few weeks later, but originally Alguersuari was only supposed to be a Red Bull reserve driver). The only driver who Red Bull haven't brought into the F1 paddock that way would be Vergne, who went directly to Toro Rosso: although the move is a temporary one, perhaps it serves as a small threat from Red Bull Racing to their drivers at Toro Rosso that they do have other eligible drivers in the wings.

I did make a joke over there, but you are indeed right, IMO. This is just the beginning. Soon they will give Da Costa some FP's at Toro Rosso, perhaps justifying it with urgent cases like this. It looks to be STR and RBR modus operandi with their stable. What I find annoying is that they don't even try to assure some sort of continuation in the B team. They will probably have some comparison data between previous and current drivers due to the FP's sessions but still, I don't think it is enough and in real race conditions they don't have a clue if these two are better or worse than the previous two. Anyway, I think both Vergne and Ricciardo should start to be worried.

I kind of suspected you were teasing me a bit there, but I do agree that this could possibly be a move towards giving da Costa free practise sessions later on in the season - it would work fairly well since the races in the FR 3.5 series don't clash with F1, so he could double up between the two series.
Personally, I would have to agree that, to a certain extent, RBR probably shot themselves in the foot a bit by throwing both drivers out of Toro Rosso as they now have no benchmark for their new drivers.

Equally, I would say that Buemi and Alguersuari were probably doing pretty solid jobs overall - in 2011, they very nearly ended up beating Sauber to 7th in the WCC (they might well have done so had Buemi not broken down in Abu Dhabi that year when he was in the running for a top 10 finish). I half wonder if that was the reason why they were fired that year - there has been pressure on Toro Rosso to improve its results recently, although the expectations have been rather high in recent years.

IIRC, wasn't there talk of expecting to fight for 6th in the WCC this year? To be honest, although Williams have fallen back a bit this year and Sauber are finding the C32 is a little more temperamental to set up than anticipated, Force India have been a stronger outfit for several years now and, having started with a solid enough evolution of the VJM05, are unlikely to fall back behind Toro Rosso any time soon. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if RBR give Ricciardo and Vergne a hurry up sooner or later, since their patience, which was already in short supply, seems to be wearing thin fairly quickly.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 09 Apr 2013, 21:26

mario wrote:I kind of suspected you were teasing me a bit there, but I do agree that this could possibly be a move towards giving da Costa free practise sessions later on in the season - it would work fairly well since the races in the FR 3.5 series don't clash with F1, so he could double up between the two series.
Personally, I would have to agree that, to a certain extent, RBR probably shot themselves in the foot a bit by throwing both drivers out of Toro Rosso as they now have no benchmark for their new drivers.

Equally, I would say that Buemi and Alguersuari were probably doing pretty solid jobs overall - in 2011, they very nearly ended up beating Sauber to 7th in the WCC (they might well have done so had Buemi not broken down in Abu Dhabi that year when he was in the running for a top 10 finish). I half wonder if that was the reason why they were fired that year - there has been pressure on Toro Rosso to improve its results recently, although the expectations have been rather high in recent years.

IIRC, wasn't there talk of expecting to fight for 6th in the WCC this year? To be honest, although Williams have fallen back a bit this year and Sauber are finding the C32 is a little more temperamental to set up than anticipated, Force India have been a stronger outfit for several years now and, having started with a solid enough evolution of the VJM05, are unlikely to fall back behind Toro Rosso any time soon. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if RBR give Ricciardo and Vergne a hurry up sooner or later, since their patience, which was already in short supply, seems to be wearing thin fairly quickly.

The fact that they don't have a good benchmark is the biggest issue, driver wise, and booting out both Jaime and Sabastien ended up turning out an idiotic decision in my opinion. They are probably certain that STR6 was a fine car, but was it set back by poor driving standards? Enough to justify changing both drivers? Now, we know that they trust Buemi input since he stayed on to be RBR 3rd driver. This means that they at least think he is capable of something. And what about Alguersuari? He matched Buemi on race head-to-head, 12-12, and while was more inconsistent was also capable of better drives. We can only conclude that both were evenly matched and a pair of safe hands. While with Vergne and Ricciardo, on the other hand, we still cannot conclude much except that Ricciardo qualifies better and Vergne races better. And that they cannot do much with the material they are given.

This brings us back to what their cars are capable of doing throughout these last few years and since Vettel, who basically had a Red Bull on his hands, they have been a bit hopeless. I think the only good year for them was 2011 where they banked on Williams's annus horribilis. Still, like you said, they nearly beaten Sauber in that year. I wonder, though, if this whole pressure is getting to them. It certainly brought them to the point of a desperate engine switch to Renault enabling them to learn some of the 'mother' team know-how and cashing in on a bet of the Renault turbo engine being better than Ferrari. It might end up blowing in their faces... What matters is that they have now changed drivers and staff and, despite this, things are still not looking good with another year of lucking in low points positions when others do bad. There is so much you can blame on drivers...

Post by **mario** » 09 Apr 2013, 21:49

DanielPT wrote:
mario wrote:I kind of suspected you were teasing me a bit there, but I do agree that this could possibly be a move towards giving da Costa free practise sessions later on in the season - it would work fairly well since the races in the FR 3.5 series don't clash with F1, so he could double up between the two series.
Personally, I would have to agree that, to a certain extent, RBR probably shot themselves in the foot a bit by throwing both drivers out of Toro Rosso as they now have no benchmark for their new drivers.

Equally, I would say that Buemi and Alguersuari were probably doing pretty solid jobs overall - in 2011, they very nearly ended up beating Sauber to 7th in the WCC (they might well have done so had Buemi not broken down in Abu Dhabi that year when he was in the running for a top 10 finish). I half wonder if that was the reason why they were fired that year - there has been pressure on Toro Rosso to improve its results recently, although the expectations have been rather high in recent years.

IIRC, wasn't there talk of expecting to fight for 6th in the WCC this year? To be honest, although Williams have fallen back a bit this year and Sauber are finding the C32 is a little more temperamental to set up than anticipated, Force India have been a stronger outfit for several years now and, having started with a solid enough evolution of the VJM05, are unlikely to fall back behind Toro Rosso any time soon. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if RBR give Ricciardo and Vergne a hurry up sooner or later, since their patience, which was already in short supply, seems to be wearing thin fairly quickly.

The fact that they don't have a good benchmark is the biggest issue, driver wise, and booting out both Jaime and Sabastien ended up turning out an idiotic decision in my opinion. They are probably certain that STR6 was a fine car, but was it set back by poor driving standards? Enough to justify changing both drivers? Now, we know that they trust Buemi input since he stayed on to be RBR 3rd driver. This means that they at least think he is capable of something. And what about Alguersuari? He matched Buemi on race head-to-head, 12-12, and while was more inconsistent was also capable of better drives. We can only conclude that both were evenly matched and a pair of safe hands. While with Vergne and Ricciardo, on the other hand, we still cannot conclude much except that Ricciardo qualifies better and Vergne races better. And that they cannot do much with the material they are given.

This brings us back to what their cars are capable of doing throughout these last few years and since Vettel, who basically had a Red Bull on his hands, they have been a bit hopeless. I think the only good year for them was 2011 where they banked on Williams's annus horribilis. Still, like you said, they nearly beaten Sauber in that year. I wonder, though, if this whole pressure is getting to them. It certainly brought them to the point of a desperate engine switch to Renault enabling them to learn some of the 'mother' team know-how and cashing in on a bet of the Renault turbo engine being better than Ferrari. It might end up blowing in their faces... What matters is that they have now changed drivers and staff and, despite this, things are still not looking good with another year of lucking in low points positions when others do bad. There is so much you can blame on drivers...

I do agree that, perhaps, the team are trying to shift the blame for some of their own shortcomings onto the drivers - I would say that part of the problem is that, because Toro Rosso are now effectively dependent on Red Bull Technology (an organisation effectively only set up by Red Bull to get around the issue of customer cars), their own in house design capabilities seem to have been progressively hollowed out over the years.
The issue of not being able to share some components has hindered them in a few ways too - having to make their own gearbox is drawing away some resources that could be used elsewhere, which seems to be the primary reason why they want to switch to a Renault engine and use the Red Bull drivetrain (although the Toro Rosso design is reportedly quite clever in some ways, as the connection with the rear suspension has been designed in a way that makes it slightly easier to make adjustments to the suspension that some rivals).

Some of their staff have drifted up to Red Bull (it seems that a number of them moved from Toro Rosso to RBR along with Vettel), whilst a few other teams have picked up engineers from them too. There are a few engineers at Ferrari who can trace their roots back into Minardi, and a few design features from old Minardi's have cropped up on the F138 (the rear wing features a slot in the endplates that features on the last generation of Minardi's, and there is a suggestion that the front pullrod suspension of the F2012 and F138 might have also been designed by a former Minardi engineer).

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 09 Apr 2013, 21:56

mario wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
mario wrote:I kind of suspected you were teasing me a bit there, but I do agree that this could possibly be a move towards giving da Costa free practise sessions later on in the season - it would work fairly well since the races in the FR 3.5 series don't clash with F1, so he could double up between the two series.
Personally, I would have to agree that, to a certain extent, RBR probably shot themselves in the foot a bit by throwing both drivers out of Toro Rosso as they now have no benchmark for their new drivers.

Equally, I would say that Buemi and Alguersuari were probably doing pretty solid jobs overall - in 2011, they very nearly ended up beating Sauber to 7th in the WCC (they might well have done so had Buemi not broken down in Abu Dhabi that year when he was in the running for a top 10 finish). I half wonder if that was the reason why they were fired that year - there has been pressure on Toro Rosso to improve its results recently, although the expectations have been rather high in recent years.

IIRC, wasn't there talk of expecting to fight for 6th in the WCC this year? To be honest, although Williams have fallen back a bit this year and Sauber are finding the C32 is a little more temperamental to set up than anticipated, Force India have been a stronger outfit for several years now and, having started with a solid enough evolution of the VJM05, are unlikely to fall back behind Toro Rosso any time soon. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if RBR give Ricciardo and Vergne a hurry up sooner or later, since their patience, which was already in short supply, seems to be wearing thin fairly quickly.

The fact that they don't have a good benchmark is the biggest issue, driver wise, and booting out both Jaime and Sabastien ended up turning out an idiotic decision in my opinion. They are probably certain that STR6 was a fine car, but was it set back by poor driving standards? Enough to justify changing both drivers? Now, we know that they trust Buemi input since he stayed on to be RBR 3rd driver. This means that they at least think he is capable of something. And what about Alguersuari? He matched Buemi on race head-to-head, 12-12, and while was more inconsistent was also capable of better drives. We can only conclude that both were evenly matched and a pair of safe hands. While with Vergne and Ricciardo, on the other hand, we still cannot conclude much except that Ricciardo qualifies better and Vergne races better. And that they cannot do much with the material they are given.

This brings us back to what their cars are capable of doing throughout these last few years and since Vettel, who basically had a Red Bull on his hands, they have been a bit hopeless. I think the only good year for them was 2011 where they banked on Williams's annus horribilis. Still, like you said, they nearly beaten Sauber in that year. I wonder, though, if this whole pressure is getting to them. It certainly brought them to the point of a desperate engine switch to Renault enabling them to learn some of the 'mother' team know-how and cashing in on a bet of the Renault turbo engine being better than Ferrari. It might end up blowing in their faces... What matters is that they have now changed drivers and staff and, despite this, things are still not looking good with another year of lucking in low points positions when others do bad. There is so much you can blame on drivers...

I do agree that, perhaps, the team are trying to shift the blame for some of their own shortcomings onto the drivers - I would say that part of the problem is that, because Toro Rosso are now effectively dependent on Red Bull Technology (an organisation effectively only set up by Red Bull to get around the issue of customer cars), their own in house design capabilities seem to have been progressively hollowed out over the years.
The issue of not being able to share some components has hindered them in a few ways too - having to make their own gearbox is drawing away some resources that could be used elsewhere, which seems to be the primary reason why they want to switch to a Renault engine and use the Red Bull drivetrain (although the Toro Rosso design is reportedly quite clever in some ways, as the connection with the rear suspension has been designed in a way that makes it slightly easier to make adjustments to the suspension that some rivals).

Some of their staff have drifted up to Red Bull (it seems that a number of them moved from Toro Rosso to RBR along with Vettel), whilst a few other teams have picked up engineers from them too. There are a few engineers at Ferrari who can trace their roots back into Minardi, and a few design features from old Minardi's have cropped up on the F138 (the rear wing features a slot in the endplates that features on the last generation of Minardi's, and there is a suggestion that the front pullrod suspension of the F2012 and F138 might have also been designed by a former Minardi engineer).

One of my cousins used to work for minardi and still works at Torro Rosso to this day and in 1997, he was chief engineer at tyrell, the only other thing I know is he's called Nigel Steer :mrgreen:

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 09 Apr 2013, 22:09

mario wrote:There are a few
engineers at Ferrari who can trace their roots back into
Minardi, and a few design features from old Minardi's have
cropped up on the F138 (the rear wing features a slot in the
endplates that features on the last generation of Minardi's, and there is a suggestion that the
front pullrod suspension of the
F2012 and F138 might have also been designed by a former
Minardi engineer).

If I remember rightly, Gustav Brunner, who penned the Minardi PS01, complete with front pullrod suspension, also had a hand in the F2012, with similar suspension configuration. I can't say about the F138 though, as far as I'm aware, Brunner was acting as a consultant last year.

TheBigJ · Post by **TheBigJ** » 10 Apr 2013, 09:01

What do we make of the noises coming out of McLaren saying they fixed their car? Is this true or PR bile?

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 10 Apr 2013, 09:10

TheBigJ wrote:What do we make of the noises coming out of McLaren saying they fixed their car? Is this true or PR bile?

They haven't said they've fixed it. They said they figured out what's wrong with it. And frankly, at this point, I'm taking nothing for granted with McLaren.