The 2013 'Pastor will defend his win' Spanish GP Thread

[CoopsII]

Did Gutierrez finish with Fastest Lap? Damn fine effort from the boy.

[Dj_bereta]

Only the first stint was good and the rest of the race was the tipical barcelona snoozefest.

[AndreaModa]

Bianchi is keeping up with Vettel... wow

That was the highlight of the race for me!

[Salamander]

Fairly decent race I thought. Certainly no classic, but not as bad as everyone is making it out to be - this is orders better than either Indian Grand Prix.

[Divina_Galica]

What happened to the Red Bulls? Either Vettel's car had something broken, or they set it up to protect the left rear tyre and ended up creating too much understeer. I don't think I saw Vettel hit a single apex in the couple of times we saw on-board shot of his race.

Going by the messages that were being sent to him from the pit wall, I would assume that it was the latter option and Vettel was trying to protect his tyres - as you say, though, he was really struggling to get the front turned in throughout the race.

Yeah, you can tell why it is that Red Bull (and Mercedes) are lobbying so strongly for tyre changes - and using the German press to do it. Pirelli will be under increasing pressure to change the tyre compounds and construction, and I am sure that Verge's rather spectacular delamination live on TV will also be used to put more pressure on Pirelli.

Okay, so Red Bull and Mercedes don't like the tyres, so what? Live with it. Ferrari, Lotus, FI, McLaren seem to be managing them.

I reckon Vergne's tyre will be seen to have been affected by damage caused by the Hulk in the pits

DG

[pi314159]

I reckon Vergne's tyre will be seen to have been affected by damage caused by the Hulk in the pits

DG

I doubt that, because he just came into the pits, so the tyre was immediately changed after the incident.

[rachel1990]

I don't know if anyone is watching the f1 forum live on the bbc now but alonso's car is being inspected by the fia more closely in the ferrari garage

This could be nothing but it could make a huge difference!

[kevinbotz]

I don't know if anyone is watching the f1 forum live on the bbc now but alonso's car is being inspected by the fia more closely in the ferrari garage

This could be nothing but it could make a huge difference!

I'm pretty sure it passed scrutineering.

[TheBigJ]

Ben Edwards made a good point in the commentary : what happens if the Mercedes lock out the front row at Monaco?! That would be the most insane race ever...

[takagi_for_the_win]

Ben Edwards made a good point in the commentary : what happens if the Mercedes lock out the front row at Monaco?! That would be the most insane race ever...

The most extreme Trulli-train ever I presume?

[Alextrax52]

Just found out Di Resta didn't have DRS working properly as the reason why he couldn't get past Rosberg at the end. Elsewhere Alonso escaped punishment for his antics with the Spanish flag and also he even had a Puncture at the time of his first stop.

[Londoner]

Just found out Di Resta didn't have DRS working properly as the reason why he couldn't get past Rosberg at the end. Elsewhere Alonso escaped punishment for his antics with the Spanish flag and also he even had a Puncture at the time of his first stop.

If Alonso got a penalty for celebrating, it would be the most bullshit penalty ever handed out. Thankfully, the stewards appear to have some semblance of common sense today.

And guess who's STILL complaining about the tyres.

[Alextrax52]

Just found out Di Resta didn't have DRS working properly as the reason why he couldn't get past Rosberg at the end. Elsewhere Alonso escaped punishment for his antics with the Spanish flag and also he even had a Puncture at the time of his first stop.

If Alonso got a penalty for celebrating, it would be the most bullshit penalty ever handed out. Thankfully, the stewards appear to have some semblance of common sense today.

And guess who's STILL complaining about the tyres.

For that Christian Horner claims the "Stating the Bleeding Obvious Award" for letting the world know how the Pirelli tires work when everybody knows about it

[mario]

What happened to the Red Bulls? Either Vettel's car had something broken, or they set it up to protect the left rear tyre and ended up creating too much understeer. I don't think I saw Vettel hit a single apex in the couple of times we saw on-board shot of his race.

Going by the messages that were being sent to him from the pit wall, I would assume that it was the latter option and Vettel was trying to protect his tyres - as you say, though, he was really struggling to get the front turned in throughout the race.

Yeah, you can tell why it is that Red Bull (and Mercedes) are lobbying so strongly for tyre changes - and using the German press to do it. Pirelli will be under increasing pressure to change the tyre compounds and construction, and I am sure that Verge's rather spectacular delamination live on TV will also be used to put more pressure on Pirelli.

It looks like that pressure has now told on Pirelli, since they have now announced that they will be making changes to the tyres that should come into effect from Silverstone onwards. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22501577
Now, although Hembery is not exactly pleased with this pressure - he has complained quite bitterly to the press that he feels that Pirelli are being pushed to favour Red Bull - consistent hostile headlines from major paddock figures are going to take their toll and, sooner or later, force them to yield somewhat in their approach. Against that, Hembery has conceded that four pit stops per race is more than Pirelli intended - they would prefer to see it being two to three stops a race - so to a certain extent the pressure is from within as well as from without the company.

Okay, so Red Bull and Mercedes don't like the tyres, so what? Live with it. Ferrari, Lotus, FI, McLaren seem to be managing them.

I reckon Vergne's tyre will be seen to have been affected by damage caused by the Hulk in the pits

DG

It depends on the nature of the failures to the tyres - Pirelli have since backtracked slightly and conceded that Hamilton's tyre failure in Bahrain might have been an issue with the construction of the tyre rather than just debris, so there may be some merit in the criticism from Red Bull and Mercedes. Similarly, although Di Resta's tyre failure during the practise sessions was put down to debris, it is the nature of the failure itself - which was that the cuts caused by the debris then caused the rubber to deform and overheat until it tore away from the main body of the tyre - that has caused some concern at Pirelli.
Now, that is not to deny the political slant of Red Bull's complaints - that putting pressure on Pirelli to make modifications to the tyres that are very likely to help them out more than anybody else - but equally it is possible that there may be a kernel of truth in what Red Bull say.

[James1978]

I would like to see less stops, not to favour Red Bull, but to actually be able to be able to successfully identify who is directly racing who.

[Jocke1]

"Pastor will defend his win?"

I smell an avatar bet.

[Aerospeed]

"Pastor will defend his win?"

I smell an avatar bet.

The avatar doesn't change itself, Jocke

[Salamander]

"Pastor will defend his win?"

I smell an avatar bet.

The avatar doesn't change itself, Jocke

I still can't believe you didn't make Jocke have an Alex Wurz avatar.

[Jocke1]

The avatar doesn't change itself, Jocke

But where is it?
I thought you were going to post something?
The one on page 1 is not working, it never did. Right?

[TomWazzleshaw]

If I was Christian Horner, the alarm bells should be well and truly ringing now as on an aero-dependent track where tyre wear isn't as bad as places like China, Red Bull were nowhere near the Ferraris and Raikkonen by race end.

But at least they're doing better than Ross Brawn's mob right now.

[DanielPT]

It looks like that pressure has now told on Pirelli, since they have now announced that they will be making changes to the tyres that should come into effect from Silverstone onwards. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22501577
Now, although Hembery is not exactly pleased with this pressure - he has complained quite bitterly to the press that he feels that Pirelli are being pushed to favour Red Bull - consistent hostile headlines from major paddock figures are going to take their toll and, sooner or later, force them to yield somewhat in their approach. Against that, Hembery has conceded that four pit stops per race is more than Pirelli intended - they would prefer to see it being two to three stops a race - so to a certain extent the pressure is from within as well as from without the company.

Okay, so Red Bull and Mercedes don't like the tyres, so what? Live with it. Ferrari, Lotus, FI, McLaren seem to be managing them.

I reckon Vergne's tyre will be seen to have been affected by damage caused by the Hulk in the pits

DG

It depends on the nature of the failures to the tyres - Pirelli have since backtracked slightly and conceded that Hamilton's tyre failure in Bahrain might have been an issue with the construction of the tyre rather than just debris, so there may be some merit in the criticism from Red Bull and Mercedes. Similarly, although Di Resta's tyre failure during the practise sessions was put down to debris, it is the nature of the failure itself - which was that the cuts caused by the debris then caused the rubber to deform and overheat until it tore away from the main body of the tyre - that has caused some concern at Pirelli.
Now, that is not to deny the political slant of Red Bull's complaints - that putting pressure on Pirelli to make modifications to the tyres that are very likely to help them out more than anybody else - but equally it is possible that there may be a kernel of truth in what Red Bull say.

Now, if it for this year to turn out into another Red Bull run away championship, then it is better for them to leave the tyres as they are. At least not everything goes their way (and The Finger's way) for once, so it is time to see them cope with it. I am tired of seeing Vettel luck into Championship crowns due to having by far the best car.

[mario]

It looks like that pressure has now told on Pirelli, since they have now announced that they will be making changes to the tyres that should come into effect from Silverstone onwards. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22501577
Now, although Hembery is not exactly pleased with this pressure - he has complained quite bitterly to the press that he feels that Pirelli are being pushed to favour Red Bull - consistent hostile headlines from major paddock figures are going to take their toll and, sooner or later, force them to yield somewhat in their approach. Against that, Hembery has conceded that four pit stops per race is more than Pirelli intended - they would prefer to see it being two to three stops a race - so to a certain extent the pressure is from within as well as from without the company.

Okay, so Red Bull and Mercedes don't like the tyres, so what? Live with it. Ferrari, Lotus, FI, McLaren seem to be managing them.

I reckon Vergne's tyre will be seen to have been affected by damage caused by the Hulk in the pits

DG

It depends on the nature of the failures to the tyres - Pirelli have since backtracked slightly and conceded that Hamilton's tyre failure in Bahrain might have been an issue with the construction of the tyre rather than just debris, so there may be some merit in the criticism from Red Bull and Mercedes. Similarly, although Di Resta's tyre failure during the practise sessions was put down to debris, it is the nature of the failure itself - which was that the cuts caused by the debris then caused the rubber to deform and overheat until it tore away from the main body of the tyre - that has caused some concern at Pirelli.
Now, that is not to deny the political slant of Red Bull's complaints - that putting pressure on Pirelli to make modifications to the tyres that are very likely to help them out more than anybody else - but equally it is possible that there may be a kernel of truth in what Red Bull say.

Now, if it for this year to turn out into another Red Bull run away championship, then it is better for them to leave the tyres as they are. At least not everything goes their way (and The Finger's way) for once, so it is time to see them cope with it. I am tired of seeing Vettel luck into Championship crowns due to having by far the best car.

Well, Red Bull are continuing to try to apply more public pressure on Pirelli to change their tyres - Mateschitz has been publicly attacking Pirelli again, complaining that the sport had "nothing to do with racing any more" and it seems that he also had a private meeting with Bernie after the race (he refused to tell reporters what was discussed in that meeting, but I think we can safely assume that the tyres were brought up as a talking point). http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22509847
Now, this is going to be an interesting battle between some of the more powerful teams in the sport - Lotus appear to be somewhat unhappy about the prospect of the tyres being changed midway through the season whilst Ferrari, although staying somewhat quiet on the matter, probably would quietly back Lotus's position.

[Jocke1]

Massa said the 'a' word (ends with a double 's') live on air during BBC's grid walk.
Will he receive a penalty for that? Probably £56,000 and a 20-place grid penalty for the next seven races.

[Salamander]

Mercedes appear to be going into denial. Specifically, Toto Wolff is denying that Mercedes' absurd tyre wear in the race is not down to an inherent issue with the car, because they have 3 pole positions, and a car with 3 pole positions can't be inherently flawed. Given that tyre wear has been a recurrent issue with Mercedes since they took over from Brawn, well, I think you'll understand my skepticism.

[DanielPT]

Well, Red Bull are continuing to try to apply more public pressure on Pirelli to change their tyres - Mateschitz has been publicly attacking Pirelli again, complaining that the sport had "nothing to do with racing any more" and it seems that he also had a private meeting with Bernie after the race (he refused to tell reporters what was discussed in that meeting, but I think we can safely assume that the tyres were brought up as a talking point). http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22509847
Now, this is going to be an interesting battle between some of the more powerful teams in the sport - Lotus appear to be somewhat unhappy about the prospect of the tyres being changed midway through the season whilst Ferrari, although staying somewhat quiet on the matter, probably would quietly back Lotus's position.

Still, after analysing the problem I reckon that Red Bull, with a more durable tires (in between two to three stops), would only be slightly closer to the front in race day levels. Sure, Red Bull are taking care of the tyres instead of pushing the car, but so do Lotus and Ferrari (probably more Ferrari). I bet Alonso could be faster still with a more durable tyre. The problem might be in their car, just like Mercedes but to a less extent. Another difference? Mercedes aren't throwing their toys out of the pram. Red Bull are spoilt and obnoxious and all their talk of being an easy going and different team makes me sick nowadays. Even Ferrari are behaving themselves better these days.

[Aerospeed]

Et Voila:

[Salamander]

I love this headline.

[Jocke1]

Et Voila:

Could you decrease the file size? It has to be 14.65 kb.

[LionZoo]

I love this headline.

"We don't understand why you [the media] are all so excited.

"It is a bit bizarre - unless you all want us to give tyres to Red Bull to help them win the championship, which appears to be the case.

"I think it is pretty clear. There is one team who will benefit from a change and that is them."

Thank you for telling it like it is!

[Salamander]

Et Voila:

Could you decrease the file size? It has to be 14.65 kb.

There you go. Protip for forum avatars: Always use .jpg instead of .png. They're too small for the quality to do much more than balloon the filesize.

[eytl]

Here's my take on this whole Pirelli issue.

I spent most of Sunday night (our time) getting frustrated and agreeing with Martin Brundle who was describing the racing as "pedestrian". Whilst I don't necessarily want to see us going back to the sprint racing of the refuelling days, or the days when there was hardly a passing move to speak of, I was thinking that as fans we want to see cars and drivers on the limit, or demonstrating courage and guile in wheel-to-wheel combat. At the moment we don't really get that because it's not a matter of who pushes the envelope, it's almost a matter of who is able to stay in the envelope when everyone else falls out of it.

I found myself (gasp!) just about agreeing with Horner and Mateschitz, even though the likely beneficiary of any Pirelli changes is not Red Bull per se, but one S. Vettel - because I sense that Mark's heart isn't in it any more post-Sepang (but that's another topic of discussion altogether).

But whenever I go down that path of thinking, I can't help but ask ... hang on a minute, if the Red Bull is that fast and that good, and its potential is hamstrung by the tyres which bring them back to the field, then theoretically shouldn't they have been neck and neck with Alonso and Raikkonen towards the end instead of 30s adrift? If the Red Bull could be that much faster, why didn't they just do one flying lap each in Q1, Q2 and Q3 and save some life on those tyres, then just go hell for leather in the race and run a five-stop strategy, and use all three sets of primes and all three sets of options?

Obviously, I know it's not as simple as that. But my point is this. They ran the same strategy as Ferrari, on the same Pirelli compounds, and weren't as quick to complete 66 laps of Catalunya. Blaming Pirelli is just a scapegoat. I repeat what I said in my article on this same topic early last year, when Michael Schumacher was also complaining about the Pirellis (heaven knows what he'd say about this year's crop of tyres!):

It is an easy misconception to believe that just because a Grand Prix is now more like an endurance event, that somehow slowcoaches are rewarded. That is not true. Every race in history has been won by the driver who has legally covered a stipulated distance in the fastest time. That is the definition of a race. The driver may not have been afforded the opportunity to deploy his ultimate speed, but it has still been a question of who has gone quickest within a certain set of constraints.

So whether the race pace has been blistering or measured, we can rest assured in the knowledge that, true to what motor racing is fundamentally all about, F1 this year is still rewarding the drivers and cars who have gone the fastest within a given set of parameters. Indeed, the break from F1 being purely about short-range bursts is refreshing in that we can see who the truly great exponents are - those who can adapt, who can both sprint and pace themselves as the situation has demanded.

Vettel still leads the championship, so what is Red Bull crying about anyway? I can envisage the rest of this season being a three-way battle between him, Alonso and Raikkonen over who can maximise performance the best at each race. It may not be the most exciting racing, and the lack of "pushing cars to the limit" may not be my cup of tea. I'd prefer to see drivers occasionally "let it all hang out" rather than just play chicken with each other and their tyres. But there are very subtle nuances being played out that are still presenting great challenges and allowing the cream to rise to the top, so there's still something to be appreciated.

[AndreaModa]

The fact of the matter is, the whole "pushing cars to the limit" went out of the window when refuelling ended (not that it was ever really there to begin with in my opinion). You had the sprints between fuel stops, but even then drivers were driving with a set fuel load in mind, a given set of tyres, as well as maintaining the condition of the car. The only real time the cars were driven to the maximum were during those "fuel burning" laps in qualifying a few years back. That and the qualifying laps themselves obviously.

[Cynon]

I love this headline.

I love that whole article because it's 100% true!!

Stop crying and make cars that actually manage the tires. Isn't F1 about the technology? Then why can't you make something that can manage the tires, or get someone who can?

End.

[solarcold]

Red Bull are crybabies. My car is too fast, waa waa.

[Jocke1]

Et Voila:

The bet was for 12 days, right?
I might just keep it for longer than that, though. It wasn't a bad one.

There you go.

Thanks BCS.

[James1978]

Also points to make on the tyre issue:

The 2010 season featured a fantastic battle for the championship - and most races (Canada being the main exception) had durable Bridgestones.

Also this season is reminding me a bit of 2005 - at the time we were all happy that it was finally no longer a German in a red car doing all the winning, just as most of us are pleased it isn't a German Finger doing all the winning, but 2005 was really just all about making one set of tyres last a race the be all and end all.

[Svenko Wankerov]

Also points to make on the tyre issue:

The 2010 season featured a fantastic battle for the championship - and most races (Canada being the main exception) had durable Bridgestones.

Also this season is reminding me a bit of 2005 - at the time we were all happy that it was finally no longer a German in a red car doing all the winning, just as most of us are pleased it isn't a German Finger doing all the winning, but 2005 was really just all about making one set of tyres last a race the be all and end all.

Except the 2010 battle was decided by pit strategy and procession at the final race.

[madmark1974]

A few Spanish GP stats, since refuelling was stopped. I was looking to see if this year's race was much slower than others due to the tyres. Answer : not really, until you look at 2010 (last year of Bridestone) :

Code: Select all

                   Pole      Fast Lap   Diff      Winners Average Speed   Pole Sitter Ave Race Speed

Spain 2013      01:20.718   01.26.217   5.499      185.605 km/h            183.510 km/h
Spain 2012      01:21.707   01.26.250   4.543      185.838 km/h            As Winner
Spain 2011      01:20.981   01.26.727   5.746      186.020 km/h            184.531 km/h
Spain 2010      01:19.995   01:24.357   4.362      192.471 km/h            As Winner

This shows that Pirelli have done their job in as much as the cars are slower, and that Rosberg was slower in the race than the previous pole sitters have been, so maybe the situation is not as bad as myself and others
first thought it to be. I'm sure if the Mercs hadn't have qualified on the front row then gone into (very public) freefall, things wouldn't have seemed so dramatic.

[CarlosFerreira]

So, just to clarify: those who believe that Pirelli should keep with the current tyre design favour that solution because it is best, of because they believe it's the only way to defeat Sebastien Vettel?

[pi314159]

So, just to clarify: those who believe that Pirelli should keep with the current tyre design favour that solution because it is best, of because they believe it's the only way to defeat Sebastien Vettel?

I don't think it's the best, I just think we should wait for the next few races. Barcelona always was a track with lots of tyre wear, unlike Monaco and Montreal. But I still don't get why we needed DRS and faster wearing tyres after the fantastic 2010 season.