Christian Horner OBE

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 15 Jun 2013, 09:09

Look what Christian Horner has won

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/22902194

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 15 Jun 2013, 09:13

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 15 Jun 2013, 09:50

OBE? Hang on, I thought Horner was Hungarian!?

Post by **mario** » 15 Jun 2013, 10:31

Jocke1 wrote:OBE? Hang on, I thought Horner was Hungarian!?

According to the biography on the Red Bull website he was born in Leamington Spa, so he is indeed British.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 15 Jun 2013, 11:05

SgtPepper · Post by **SgtPepper** » 15 Jun 2013, 11:07

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

pasta_maldonado · Post by **pasta_maldonado** » 15 Jun 2013, 11:26

Jocke1 wrote:OBE? Hang on, I thought Horner was Hungarian!?

He's always looked Austrian to me. Oh, Vienna!

The Dutch Bear · Post by **The Dutch Bear** » 15 Jun 2013, 11:33

That places him on the same level as Adrian Newey, anyone that knows both would disagree with that.
Newey is one of the best designers in F1 history, where Horner wouldn't be anywhere near F1's best team bosses.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 15 Jun 2013, 11:49

eurobrun wrote:

You and me both, buddy. This is an utter joke. Horner is one of the most incompetent team bosses on the grid. Hell, I'd rather have Colin Kolles in charge of my team than Horner, at least he doesn't allow himself to be undermined by everyone in the team, and can lead it forward.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 15 Jun 2013, 11:58

Don't think whoever decides upon honours like this would be subjective enough to deny Horner on the basis of his supposed incompetence; the fact is that he's a British Team Principal of an effectively British team which has dominated a sport for the past 3 years.

Besides, those honours are a joke anyway. The entire English Rugby World Cup squad of 2003 got MBEs, even the guys who didn't play.

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 15 Jun 2013, 12:31

Kimi-ICE wrote:Look what Christian Horner has won

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/22902194

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 15 Jun 2013, 12:44

shinji wrote:Besides, those honours are a joke anyway. The entire English Rugby World Cup squad of 2003 got MBEs, even the guys who didn't play.

Didn't the 2005 Ashes-winning cricketers all get honours as well ... shortly before they got pummelled 5-0 by the Aussies less than 18 months later?

(Just had to mention that in a last-ditch bid for some cricket gloating given that the English have since won the last two Ashes series and will almost certainly win again this year.)

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 15 Jun 2013, 14:40

So the most successful team manager on the grid during the last 4 or 5 seasons wins an award for it, and fans are dismayed. Amazing. Next thing you know people are going to start saying that Vettel is not the best driver on the grid, despite him winning three championships in a row. :roll:

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 15 Jun 2013, 14:58

CarlosFerreira wrote:So the most successful team manager on the grid during the last 4 or 5 seasons wins an award for it, and fans are dismayed. Amazing. Next thing you know people are going to start saying that Vettel is not the best driver on the grid, despite him winning three championships in a row.

Well... he isn't. He is very good, but solely winning championships does not make you the best driver on the grid. Is Michael Schumacher the greatest driver ever of all time? Statistically, yes, but that only tells half the story.

Red Bull's championship success is a result of a driver-design combo that, on their own, are very good, and together, they complement each other as perfect as you could want. I don't see what Horner brings to the table that aids this. I suspect you cut him out of the team entirely, not replace him, and the Red Bull juggernaut would continue as if nothing had changed. Malaysia this year exemplified Horner's uselessness perfectly: he should've come down firmly for or against what Vettel did there. Either would've been acceptable, but instead he ineffectually dithered about.

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 15 Jun 2013, 15:03

AdrianSutil wrote:
Kimi-ICE wrote:Look what Christian Horner has won

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/22902194

This is absurd! Why should Horner win this?

Another thing, I always thought he was Austrian, based on his looks and the fact that his team is Austrian.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 15 Jun 2013, 15:08

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Red Bull's championship success is a result of a driver-design combo that, on their own, are very good, and together, they complement each other as perfect as you could want. I don't see what Horner brings to the table that aids this. I suspect you cut him out of the team entirely, not replace him, and the Red Bull juggernaut would continue as if nothing had changed. Malaysia this year exemplified Horner's uselessness perfectly: he should've come down firmly for or against what Vettel did there. Either would've been acceptable, but instead he ineffectually dithered about.

What? Of course not. Irrespective of what us as fans pretend is better for the sport, Horner played it perfectly, distracting the press and protecting his winning driver. Result: Red Bull and Vettel are currently ahead in both championships, and have been actively extending that advantage.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 15 Jun 2013, 15:12

CarlosFerreira wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Red Bull's championship success is a result of a driver-design combo that, on their own, are very good, and together, they complement each other as perfect as you could want. I don't see what Horner brings to the table that aids this. I suspect you cut him out of the team entirely, not replace him, and the Red Bull juggernaut would continue as if nothing had changed. Malaysia this year exemplified Horner's uselessness perfectly: he should've come down firmly for or against what Vettel did there. Either would've been acceptable, but instead he ineffectually dithered about.

What? Of course not. Irrespective of what us as fans pretend is better for the sport, Horner played it perfectly, distracting the press and protecting his winning driver. Result: Red Bull and Vettel are currently ahead in both championships, and have been actively extending that advantage.

No, they would've done that anyway. Unless you think Vettel actually gives a crap what anybody says or thinks about him? No matter what happens, people were going to criticise Vettel. The least Horner could've done was give the illusion that he was in charge over there.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 15 Jun 2013, 15:32

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Red Bull's championship success is a result of a driver-design combo that, on their own, are very good, and together, they complement each other as perfect as you could want. I don't see what Horner brings to the table that aids this. I suspect you cut him out of the team entirely, not replace him, and the Red Bull juggernaut would continue as if nothing had changed. Malaysia this year exemplified Horner's uselessness perfectly: he should've come down firmly for or against what Vettel did there. Either would've been acceptable, but instead he ineffectually dithered about.

What? Of course not. Irrespective of what us as fans pretend is better for the sport, Horner played it perfectly, distracting the press and protecting his winning driver. Result: Red Bull and Vettel are currently ahead in both championships, and have been actively extending that advantage.

No, they would've done that anyway. Unless you think Vettel actually gives a crap what anybody says or thinks about him? No matter what happens, people were going to criticise Vettel. The least Horner could've done was give the illusion that he was in charge over there.

I don't know. The team works, Vettel brings home the bacon and will continue to do so, and Webber knows his place and does exactly what's necessary. Sure, it's not democratic, but Horner gets pad to steer the team towards Championships. And steer he does, even when the tyres are fiddled in a silly attempt to put Red Bull on the back foot. Really, I am not a fan of Red Bull or Vettel (or Horner for that matter), but it's clear who the best are.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 15 Jun 2013, 15:57

CarlosFerreira wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:What? Of course not. Irrespective of what us as fans pretend is better for the sport, Horner played it perfectly, distracting the press and protecting his winning driver. Result: Red Bull and Vettel are currently ahead in both championships, and have been actively extending that advantage.

No, they would've done that anyway. Unless you think Vettel actually gives a crap what anybody says or thinks about him? No matter what happens, people were going to criticise Vettel. The least Horner could've done was give the illusion that he was in charge over there.

I don't know. The team works, Vettel brings home the bacon and will continue to do so, and Webber knows his place and does exactly what's necessary. Sure, it's not democratic, but Horner gets pad to steer the team towards Championships. And steer he does, even when the tyres are fiddled in a silly attempt to put Red Bull on the back foot. Really, I am not a fan of Red Bull or Vettel (or Horner for that matter), but it's clear who the best are.

Did you not read my posts? I don't see what steering Horner does to direct the team towards championships.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 15 Jun 2013, 16:00

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Did you not read my posts? I don't see what steering Horner does to direct the team towards championships.

I did. I disagree.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 15 Jun 2013, 16:50

The funny part is if every single thing about Horner was the same, but if he was at Mclaren, 90% of this board would be talking about how long overdue this award was.......

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 15 Jun 2013, 16:52

Wallio wrote:The funny part is if every single thing about Horner was the same, but he was at Mclaren, 90% of this board would be talking about how long overdue this award was.......

... with McLaren as they are now? No way. Hell, McLaren have been underachieving to some degree every year since 2000.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 15 Jun 2013, 16:55

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Wallio wrote:The funny part is if every single thing about Horner was the same, but he was at Mclaren, 90% of this board would be talking about how long overdue this award was.......

... with McLaren as they are now? No way. Hell, McLaren have been underachieving to some degree every year since 2000.

Still tyhe most popular team on F1Rejects by far. But regardless, if Horner wasn't at Red Bull, no one on here would care. The massive anti-Red Bull bias of this forum is showing here.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 15 Jun 2013, 16:58

Wallio wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Wallio wrote:The funny part is if every single thing about Horner was the same, but he was at Mclaren, 90% of this board would be talking about how long overdue this award was.......

... with McLaren as they are now? No way. Hell, McLaren have been underachieving to some degree every year since 2000.

Still tyhe most popular team on F1Rejects by far.

What? McLaren? Are you sure you don't mean Marussia?

Wallio wrote:But regardless, if Horner wasn't at Red Bull, no one on here would care. The massive anti-Red Bull bias of this forum is showing here.

I would care. I don't like seeing people rewarded for, at best, doing their job to a satisfactory degree. Congratulations, you've done an adequate job! That does not merit an OBE.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 15 Jun 2013, 17:06

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
What? McLaren? Are you sure you don't mean Marussia?

To me, most people on this forum have a primary team they root for, and a rejects team. For example mine are Red Bull and Ferrari up front, and Marussia in back. Quite a few people have jumped on the Marussia bandwagon

since HRT folded, and yes they are probably the most popular "reject" team here (although I think Fernades could single handidly change that if he sells). But from what I've seen, the vast majority of people on this board, regards of their back-of-the-grid presence, love Macca. Which is fine (I like their old Can-Am and Indy cars myself). I just think Horner would be loved if he was there instead of Whitmarsh.

As for an OBE, we have nothing like that here in America, so I'm not privy to what the requirements could/should be for one, so I will just have to defer to you. If you say he doesn't deserve one, I will believe you, but considering who is recieving it, you must forgive my skeptism.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 15 Jun 2013, 17:20

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Did you not read my posts?

You ask that question far too much. Just because someone doesnt automatically agree with doesnt mean its because they've missed out on some enlightenment from your words.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 15 Jun 2013, 17:23

Wallio wrote:The funny part is if every single thing about Horner was the same, but if he was at Mclaren, 90% of this board would be talking about how long overdue this award was.......

Correct!

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 15 Jun 2013, 17:27

Wallio wrote:The funny part is if every single thing about Horner was the same, but if he was at Mclaren, 90% of this board would be talking about how long overdue this award was.......

Hmm. Not sure I agree, although I 100% agree with a previous comment regarding anti-Red Bull bias on here (give it up guys, even the spambots think you're boring bastards now). If Whitmarsh had been awarded an OBE Id probably have been a bit 'meh' about it.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 15 Jun 2013, 17:30

Wallio wrote:To me, most people on this forum have a primary team they root for, and a rejects team. For example mine are Red Bull and Ferrari up front, and Marussia in back. Quite a few people have jumped on the Marussia bandwagon since HRT folded, and yes they are probably the most popular "reject" team here (although I think Fernades could single handidly change that if he sells). But from what I've seen, the vast majority of people on this board, regards of their back-of-the-grid presence, love Macca. Which is fine (I like their old Can-Am and Indy cars myself). I just think Horner would be loved if he was there instead of Whitmarsh.

... why? What is it about Horner that makes you think people would like him if he was at McLaren? He's a fairly unlikeable person as it is. Hell, I've rarely seen anybody support Martin Whitmarsh anywhere, even McLaren fans. And with good reason - he doesn't look all that competent in charge of things.

Wallio wrote:As for an OBE, we have nothing like that here in America, so I'm not privy to what the requirements could/should be for one, so I will just have to defer to you. If you say he doesn't deserve one, I will believe you, but considering who is recieving it, you must forgive my skeptism.

Honestly, the OBE is a mostly meaningless commendation, but I still think it's kind of galling when you think he's been in the sport for less than a decade - he's had some success, sure, but has he contributed as much to the sport as Ross Brawn, Adrian Newey, or Murray Walker? I don't think so.

CoopsII wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Did you not read my posts?
You ask that question far too much. Just because someone doesnt automatically agree with doesnt mean its because they've missed out on some enlightenment from your words.

What? Where did this come from? I've asked that on maybe one or two occasions in the history of the forum. I asked because Carlos' post read like he had largely ignored my post - he didn't directly address anything I said. Not because he doesn't agree with me - he's perfectly entitled to. Just as I am to disagree with him.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 15 Jun 2013, 17:32

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:What? Where did this come from? I've asked that on maybe one or two occasions in the history of the forum.

No way, you've asked that a tonne of times. Its like a habit or something.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 15 Jun 2013, 17:36

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:... why? What is it about Horner that makes you think people would like him if he was at McLaren? He's a fairly unlikeable person as it is. Hell, I've rarely seen anybody support Martin Whitmarsh anywhere, even McLaren fans. And with good reason - he doesn't look all that competent in charge of things.

Teams bias. I honestly think most people on here hate Horner solely because he is at Red Bull. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. We all have our biases, I for one couldn't stand Flavor Flav. I despised Renault when he was there (beating Ferrari in '05 and '06 didn't help :lol:

) but once he left, I softened on them.

I picked Mclaren, because as I said, they are the most popular team here, but I could have said/Ferrari/Williams/Merc/Force India and the point would be the same. Take him out of Red Bull, and people would like him.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 15 Jun 2013, 17:36

Red Bull is only successful because of Newey, even Whitmarsh would have the same success running RB.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 15 Jun 2013, 17:38

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Honestly, the OBE is a mostly meaningless commendation, but I still think it's kind of galling when you think he's been in the sport for less than a decade - he's had some success, sure, but has he contributed as much to the sport as Ross Brawn, Adrian Newey, or Murray Walker? I don't think so.

The honours system nowadays is a nonsense and has been for some time. As much as I respect Brawn and Newey they didnt deserve it anymore than Horner does. Murray Walker? Yes, because his involvement in motorsport goes back almost to WW2.

I mean, jeez, Adele was in the (on the?) honours list so what does that tell you. I mean, I like that Skyfall song and all but...

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 15 Jun 2013, 17:39

Wallio wrote:I for one couldn't stand Flavor Flav.

But why?

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 15 Jun 2013, 17:47

CoopsII wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:What? Where did this come from? I've asked that on maybe one or two occasions in the history of the forum.

No way, you've asked that a tonne of times. Its like a habit or something.

So? Why does it have to be such a big deal?

CoopsII wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Honestly, the OBE is a mostly meaningless commendation, but I still think it's kind of galling when you think he's been in the sport for less than a decade - he's had some success, sure, but has he contributed as much to the sport as Ross Brawn, Adrian Newey, or Murray Walker? I don't think so.

The honours system nowadays is a nonsense and has been for some time. As much as I respect Brawn and Newey they didnt deserve it anymore than Horner does. Murray Walker? Yes, because his involvement in motorsport goes back almost to WW2.

I mean, jeez, Adele was in the (on the?) honours list so what does that tell you. I mean, I like that Skyfall song and all but...

... true enough.

Wallio wrote:Take him out of Red Bull, and people would like him.

I wouldn't be so sure, he's made of smarminess and PR-speak. I'd find him unlikeable no matter where he was, but that's just me. I'd like to think most everyone else isn't that shallow...

pasta_maldonado · Post by **pasta_maldonado** » 15 Jun 2013, 18:00

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Wallio wrote:The funny part is if every single thing about Horner was the same, but if he was at Mclaren, 90% of this board would be talking about how long overdue this award was.......

Correct!

Not necessarily. If Martin Whitmarsh were to be awarded an OBE, I'd be up in arms about it. Whitmarsh has failed to wn a single championship during his tenure, despite McLaren having the best car for two of those years. At least Horner has managed to win his team multiple championships.

I'd say people are disagreeing with this because they feel Horner has done relatively nothing at Red Bull, not because everyone is so OMGREDBULLNUKETHEMPLZ. My personal opinion on the matter is that Horner is undeserving of this 'honour' (placed in inverted commas for reasons I'll explain later) Unlike, say, Ron Dennis, Horner has not displayed his authority over the team regularly enough. I'm not saying he has no authority, it's clearly the opposite as he is team principal after all, but unlike a character like Dennis he has not made it clear that he runs the ship and he calls the shots. Horner has a rather laissez-faire attitude to team principalship, and this lack of intervention and a failure to set clear boundaries for his drivers has led to many inter-team disputes, especially between his drivers.

As for wether I'd be applauding this decision if Horner was at McLaren, I'd have said no. Horner probably would not have been able to deal with the vastly different personalities of Hamilton and Button, and a failure to set boundaries in this case would lead to Hamilton's going out of control.

As for these honours, while I approve of most of the appointments, some baffle me. Services to the entertainment industry? Services to any industry? Please.

Svenko Wankerov · Post by **Svenko Wankerov** » 15 Jun 2013, 18:04

These things are as irrelevant as the royal family when Ron Dennis is a CBE and Bernie isn't.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 15 Jun 2013, 18:15

TL;DR: Horner is very good all round.

pasta: it's not about if one has "displayed his authority", etc. That might be your model of what a team principal should be, but it is not a measure of management efficiency, or success for that matter. Wins, that's the measure of success. Or albums sold, for that matter. In modern society, it seems that only wins - and the monetary compensation that comes with it - is a measure of success. You may think that is incorrect - I, for one, do - but that's a discussion about what things should be like, not about how things are.

Back to Horner: the big story of the last 10 years in F1, like it or not, is the rise and rise of Red Bull. We may dislike it - I personally think F1 would be a better place if the soft drinks salesmen packed up and left, today - but they are a story of success. Horner is key to that story. He has managed to bring together difficult personalities - such as Newey, a notoriously fickle individual, and the Austrian fellow whose name I can't remember right now is not easy either -, difficult technical partners - how many times has Renault threatened to leave? -, a genious driver and make them work together. At the same time he has kept Webber happy-ish (fundamental for winning the constructors' Championship, which is where money for the teams is), and fought off the attempts of Toro Rosso to become more important than they should. And finally, he has those mechanics and pit crew working like a well tuned engine, regularly the fastest pit crew in the paddock.

Is that enough? Seriously, why don't we elect Horner as the new PM?

tzerof1 · Post by **tzerof1** » 15 Jun 2013, 18:28

eytl wrote:
shinji wrote:Besides, those honours are a joke anyway. The entire English Rugby World Cup squad of 2003 got MBEs, even the guys who didn't play.

Didn't the 2005 Ashes-winning cricketers all get honours as well ... shortly before they got pummelled 5-0 by the Aussies less than 18 months later?

(Just had to mention that in a last-ditch bid for some cricket gloating given that the English have since won the last two Ashes series and will almost certainly win again this year.)

Yes, they all got MBE's, and to say they got pummelled is an understatement, and as a result "Member of the British Empire" probably would have been better changed to "Mostly Bangladesh-esque Effort" considering the mostly large margins the matches were won by. Also, people (namely Geoff Boycott) thought at the time that Warnie should have gotten an MBE as a reward for his (at the time) over 500 Test wickets, and 40 wickets he took just in that series, instead of just the English side.

Having said that, I agree that, England will most likely win this series as well, as the Aussies lurch from one PR disaster to the next. Though, they certainly won't be bowled out for 20, like Essex was yesterday.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 15 Jun 2013, 18:30

CoopsII wrote:
Wallio wrote:I for one couldn't stand Flavor Flav.

But why?

Incompetence (in his books Steve Matchett talks oh how Flav knew literally nothing about the cars during his Benetton days), corruption, greed, arrogance, being a decent manager and good PR guy on otherwise great teams (makin him look better), knocking up hedi klum, take your pick