ROTR-Germany 2013

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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Londoner »

Daniel Ricciardo - Dropped through the order faster than you can say "Western Australia's Daniel Ricciardo!" :roll:
Force India - Absolutely nowhere all afternoon.
Felipe Massa - That was one weird way to retire, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was partially a mechanical failure.
TV coverage - The only replay of Massa's spin we got was an onboard from Alonso, and so much action was missed.

But ROTR has to go to:

The pitlane - From the usual stupidity (Di Resta being released into the path of Vergne), to race-wrecking airguns (Williams), to screwed-up strategies (Lotus, Sauber) to the incredibly dangerous and scary incident with Webber's wheel falling off. Thank heavens the cameraman was alright, but it was a complete and utter mess all down the pitlane.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by DOSBoot »

1. Bianchi's Marussia MR-02: That was just reject gold! Went rouge on us. Shame it didn't take out Vettel. (In a non-harmfull way of course.)

2. Red Bull Pit Crew: Cost Webber a potential podium. Could have killed that cameraman.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by mario »

East Londoner wrote:Daniel Ricciardo - Dropped through the order faster than you can say "Western Australia's Daniel Ricciardo!" :roll:
Force India - Absolutely nowhere all afternoon.
Felipe Massa - That was one weird way to retire, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was partially a mechanical failure.
TV coverage - The only replay of Massa's spin we got was an onboard from Alonso, and so much action was missed.

But ROTR has to go to:

The pitlane - From the usual stupidity (Di Resta being released into the path of Vergne), to race-wrecking airguns (Williams), to screwed-up strategies (Lotus, Sauber) to the incredibly dangerous and scary incident with Webber's wheel falling off. Thank heavens the cameraman was alright, but it was a complete and utter mess all down the pitlane.

On the topic of Massa, it is a little unclear whether it was entirely driver error or mechanical - Fry suggests that the hotter than anticipated temperatures meant that both drivers were struggling with poor rear grip and that Massa, struggling with that imbalance, locked his rear wheels and spun the car. Massa, meanwhile, also admits to locking the rear brakes and spinning out because of that - according to Massa, though, the car ended up stuck in 5th gear, which was why his car stalled when he came to a halt.
Although he says that the team have not found anything out of the ordinary with the car, the fact that he was seemingly stuck in gear would suggest that perhaps there might have been something up with the gearbox of the car that contributed to his problems.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by PT8475 »

Definitely Lotus strategists, as I've seen no source indicating Kimi had a puncture, and I can't think what was going through the mind of the guy who made that call...
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by the Masked Lapwing »

East Londoner wrote:Daniel Ricciardo - Dropped through the order faster than you can say "Western Australia's Daniel Ricciardo!" :roll:


It's a bit unfair to say Ricciardo fell down the order, he didn't get overtaken early in his stints (using F1Fanatic's lap chart, he only got passed outside a pitstop once, by the Hulk late in the race). Toro Rosso have pretty average tyre wear, and insist on being the first two cars into the pits (Vergne did 4 laps in his first stint, Ricciardo did 5).

That said, he didn't make many passes either.

As for my ROTR, I'm going for the pit lane in general.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Whole Spanish Press »

Computer Designed Marussia Self Driven Car: Same mistakes as three years ago: innovative concept, yes; yet, results show that something on design went in the wrong direction.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

Only the Red Bull pit crew really jumped out at me today as like "Look! We're rejectful!", so I'll pick them.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by CoopsII »

Mercedes - For having quick cars on a Saturday which morph into average cars on a Sunday
Ferrari - For seemingly having nothing in the box to get Alonso into contention
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by SgtPepper »

CoopsII wrote:Mercedes - For having quick cars on a Saturday which morph into average cars on a Sunday
Ferrari - For seemingly having nothing in the box to get Alonso into contention


Agree. Sometimes it seems like a general malaise has set in across the front running teams, and if you look at the stats the RB9 is approaching 2011 levels of domination already, so you can understand them wanting to just sit this season out - 2012 seemed more tense or focussed somehow. Has anyone else noticed this or am I being silly?

I might go back through the 2012 interviews and compare the amount of shrugs to this year...
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Bleu »

Williams has had so dismal season that they are due to get one ROTR this year. Their 600th race is good place to give it. Both cars out in Q1, and three of their four pit stops were horrible (1 Maldo & 2 Bottas).
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Zetec »

Bleu wrote:Williams has had so dismal season that they are due to get one ROTR this year. Their 600th race is good place to give it. Both cars out in Q1, and three of their four pit stops were horrible (1 Maldo & 2 Bottas).


And still it was one of their best races this year. So, maybe the wrong race to give them ROTR.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Sublime_FA11C »

Despite the loose wheel and oh-so rejectfull Marussia (both were nobody's fault), i'll go with Massa.

He started like a demon, outpaced Alonso, and was on course to spoil the Lotus challenge, and then... he spun left coming into a right hander. He drove brilliantly before losing it under braking. Several drivers admit it's one of the hardes braking zones in F1 to get right, but it's still a mystery how Massa managed to lose it there. Probably fuel load.

Still Massa gets the ROTR nod. That could be the moment where his career went poof. Unless his wins big this year, this will be the end of him.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Phoenix »

The stewards. Letting Jules Bianchi's Marussia slip into the track like that was comical, but also dangerous and utterly incompetent.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Sublime_FA11C »

Phoenix wrote:The stewards. Letting Jules Bianchi's Marussia slip into the track like that was comical, but also dangerous and utterly incompetent.

I don't think it was their fault at all. The tractor just reached the car when it went downhill. The first priority is for the driver to get the heck out of there, then put out the fire. Probably nobody was thinking it would be a good idea to hold the car by hand if anyone even realised what could happen.

Just one of those unbelivable things. Like the wheel.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by SeedStriker »

This was a farce of a comedy because...

1)Jules Bianchi: While his Marussia was faulty here, he should've park his car way outside the track at the first sight of smoke, not a mile distance from the track workers. What he did was a rookie mistake that not even the guys in GP2, GP3 or even F4 do nowdays; worst of all, he was part of the Vettelwinslol of the weekend just with...

2)Charlie Witting and Nurb's Officials: What a way to choke! And this clearly shows inconsistencies with what happened in Montreal. Safety car way too soon, penalties given at the end of the race. Ok, Seb was the local boy, but that doesn't mean that the officialdom can give him a victory wrapped so nicely. C'mon Man!

Dishonorable mentions to Williams (sad way to celebrate 600 GP's), Felipe Massa (start thinking on local stock racing, Felipe Baby) and the pit crews (please, someone add the Benny Hill Show theme to this one...)

The What Am I Doing in this Field Award goes to Jules Bianchi's Marussia, because clearly the car is made for racing in GP2, GP3 or F4
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Divina_Galica »

DOSBoot wrote:1. Bianchi's Marussia MR-02: That was just reject gold! Went rouge on us.

2. Red Bull Pit Crew: Cost Webber a potential podium. Could have killed that cameraman.


This

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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by AxelP800 »

My choice goes to the stewards. Too soon to act. Safety car is not needed and why should Force India got fines? Nothing wrong with di Resta exit from pitbox
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Salamander »

AxelP800 wrote:why should Force India got fines? Nothing wrong with di Resta exit from pitbox


WAT. Did you not see the part where di Resta was released right in front of Vergne, who had to slam on the brakes to avoid hitting him? That is the definition of an unsafe release, right there.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Sublime_FA11C »

An unoficial view is that if you make the car behind you slam on his brakes to avoid hitting you, you've been unsafely released into his path. It was close, but FI definetly screwed up there. Di Resta is used to it by now.

They need to fine teams that violate this rule. Teams don't want to lose time waiting for a car to pass safely, but FIA needs to police "racing in the pitlane" or someone is going to get hurt. We saw what one loose wheel can do. Do we need to see a slew of people get moved down by a racing car?
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by AxelP800 »

At least Ricciardo (or Vergne was it) didn't hit di Resta. This kind of thing is pretty usual in IndyCar and NASCAR. F1 is too strict
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by roblo97 »

AxelP800 wrote:At least Ricciardo (or Vergne was it) didn't hit di Resta. This kind of thing is pretty usual in IndyCar and NASCAR. F1 is too strict

Remember when Kobayashi nearly wiped out half his pit crew a couple of years ago?
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by AxelP800 »

roblomas52 wrote:
AxelP800 wrote:At least Ricciardo (or Vergne was it) didn't hit di Resta. This kind of thing is pretty usual in IndyCar and NASCAR. F1 is too strict

Remember when Kobayashi nearly wiped out half his pit crew a couple of years ago?


That's a different story. Kobayashi just made a mistake and hit them
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Salamander »

AxelP800 wrote:At least Ricciardo (or Vergne was it) didn't hit di Resta. This kind of thing is pretty usual in IndyCar and NASCAR. F1 is too strict

Guess what? This isn't IndyCar or NASCAR. The pitlane conduct there is completely different and shouldn't apply to F1. The pit crew have a responsibility to ensure that their car is released safely. Relying on the reflexes of another team's driver to do this is unacceptable.

roblomas52 wrote:
AxelP800 wrote:At least Ricciardo (or Vergne was it) didn't hit di Resta. This kind of thing is pretty usual in IndyCar and NASCAR. F1 is too strict

Remember when Kobayashi nearly wiped out half his pit crew a couple of years ago?

Better yet, remember back in Hungary 2010 when Kubica was released directly into Sutil?
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by go_Rubens »

Salamander wrote:
AxelP800 wrote:At least Ricciardo (or Vergne was it) didn't hit di Resta. This kind of thing is pretty usual in IndyCar and NASCAR. F1 is too strict

Guess what? This isn't IndyCar or NASCAR. The pitlane conduct there is completely different and shouldn't apply to F1. The pit crew have a responsibility to ensure that their car is released safely. Relying on the reflexes of another team's driver to do this is unacceptable.

roblomas52 wrote:
AxelP800 wrote:At least Ricciardo (or Vergne was it) didn't hit di Resta. This kind of thing is pretty usual in IndyCar and NASCAR. F1 is too strict

Remember when Kobayashi nearly wiped out half his pit crew a couple of years ago?

Better yet, remember back in Hungary 2010 when Kubica was released directly into Sutil?


F1 is unique and has it's own rules. Unsafe pit releases should be reprimanded, which you don't see in most North American racing series. The fact of the matter is, unsafe pit releases are a part of F1, and shall stay that way. People claiming that unsafe releases should not be part of F1 must be messed up in the head (no offense intended). Ridiculous, if you ask me.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

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Salamander wrote:
AxelP800 wrote:At least Ricciardo (or Vergne was it) didn't hit di Resta. This kind of thing is pretty usual in IndyCar and NASCAR. F1 is too strict

Guess what? This isn't IndyCar or NASCAR. The pitlane conduct there is completely different and shouldn't apply to F1. The pit crew have a responsibility to ensure that their car is released safely. Relying on the reflexes of another team's driver to do this is unacceptable.

Indeed. While this is a sport where just a few thousandths of a second might be crucial, the teams should not try to save time by risking the health and lives of all of the personnel working on the pitlane. We already saw what a loose wheel can do (and that was at a relatively slow speed), and all of those sharp bits of carbon fibre that go airborne in a crash aren't exactly nice either.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Sublime_FA11C »

AxelP800 wrote:At least Ricciardo (or Vergne was it) didn't hit di Resta. This kind of thing is pretty usual in IndyCar and NASCAR. F1 is too strict.

They have fewer mechanics in the pitlane, and no cameramen loitering around.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by go_Rubens »

Nuppiz wrote:
Salamander wrote:
AxelP800 wrote:At least Ricciardo (or Vergne was it) didn't hit di Resta. This kind of thing is pretty usual in IndyCar and NASCAR. F1 is too strict

Guess what? This isn't IndyCar or NASCAR. The pitlane conduct there is completely different and shouldn't apply to F1. The pit crew have a responsibility to ensure that their car is released safely. Relying on the reflexes of another team's driver to do this is unacceptable.

Indeed. While this is a sport where just a few thousandths of a second might be crucial, the teams should not try to save time by risking the health and lives of all of the personnel working on the pitlane. We already saw what a loose wheel can do (and that was at a relatively slow speed), and all of those sharp bits of carbon fibre that go airborne in a crash aren't exactly nice either.


Right.

The pit crews were like Johnny Cecotto Jr. in a GP2 race. Messy and incident prone.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by roblo97 »

Nuppiz wrote:
Salamander wrote:
AxelP800 wrote:At least Ricciardo (or Vergne was it) didn't hit di Resta. This kind of thing is pretty usual in IndyCar and NASCAR. F1 is too strict

Guess what? This isn't IndyCar or NASCAR. The pitlane conduct there is completely different and shouldn't apply to F1. The pit crew have a responsibility to ensure that their car is released safely. Relying on the reflexes of another team's driver to do this is unacceptable.

We already saw what a loose wheel can do (and that was at a relatively slow speed).

And we also know what happens at high speed… Australia 2001
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by go_Rubens »

roblomas52 wrote:And we also know what happens at high speed… Australia 2001


And Monza 2000. I would have rather given the ROTRs for those two events to wheel tethers. Hey guys, they are useless when they don't work!
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Salamander »

go_Rubens wrote:F1 is unique and has it's own rules. Unsafe pit releases should be reprimanded, which you don't see in most North American racing series. The fact of the matter is, unsafe pit releases are a part of F1, and shall stay that way. People claiming that unsafe releases should not be part of F1 must be messed up in the head (no offense intended). Ridiculous, if you ask me.


aaaa my head whyyyyyyy Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image

So unsafe pit releases should be reprimanded, even though they are a part of F1 and you think people are silly for thinking they shouldn't be? Whaaaat? Do you even read what you write?
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by AxelP800 »

Salamander wrote:
go_Rubens wrote:F1 is unique and has it's own rules. Unsafe pit releases should be reprimanded, which you don't see in most North American racing series. The fact of the matter is, unsafe pit releases are a part of F1, and shall stay that way. People claiming that unsafe releases should not be part of F1 must be messed up in the head (no offense intended). Ridiculous, if you ask me.


aaaa my head whyyyyyyy Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image

So unsafe pitreleases should be reprimanded, even though they are a part of F1 and you think people are silly for thinking they shouldn't be? Whaaaat? Do you even read what you write?


Well, I don't see there's penalty issued for Sato and Carl Edwards unsafe pit. So why di Resta?
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Londoner »

AxelP800 wrote:
Salamander wrote:
go_Rubens wrote:F1 is unique and has it's own rules. Unsafe pit releases should be reprimanded, which you don't see in most North American racing series. The fact of the matter is, unsafe pit releases are a part of F1, and shall stay that way. People claiming that unsafe releases should not be part of F1 must be messed up in the head (no offense intended). Ridiculous, if you ask me.


aaaa my head whyyyyyyy Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image

So unsafe pitreleases should be reprimanded, even though they are a part of F1 and you think people are silly for thinking they shouldn't be? Whaaaat? Do you even read what you write?


Well, I don't see there's penalty issued for Sato and Carl Edwards unsafe pit. So why di Resta?


Because they're two different series altogether, with different rules.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Salamander »

East Londoner wrote:
AxelP800 wrote:Well, I don't see there's penalty issued for Sato and Carl Edwards unsafe pit. So why di Resta?


Because they're two different series altogether, with different rules.


Bingo. Also the Sato incident is completely different, and he should get a penalty for that anyway because it was quite dangerous. The Edwards incident... I'm pretty sure the team itself can handle that one. They didn't endanger anyone but themselves with that.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by go_Rubens »

Salamander wrote:
go_Rubens wrote:F1 is unique and has it's own rules. Unsafe pit releases should be reprimanded, which you don't see in most North American racing series. The fact of the matter is, unsafe pit releases are a part of F1, and shall stay that way. People claiming that unsafe releases should not be part of F1 must be messed up in the head (no offense intended). Ridiculous, if you ask me.


aaaa my head whyyyyyyy Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image

So unsafe pit releases should be reprimanded, even though they are a part of F1 and you think people are silly for thinking they shouldn't be? Whaaaat? Do you even read what you write?


Let me rephrase that. Unsafe releases should be reprimanded.

The reason why they are a part of F1 is because teams don't tend to give a crap about others and only seem to care for themselves. Which means this crap happens on race day.

East Londoner wrote:
AxelP800 wrote:Well, I don't see there's penalty issued for Sato and Carl Edwards unsafe pit. So why di Resta?


Because they're two different series altogether, with different rules.


Exactly. Different racing series have different rules. Plus, unsafe releases in F1 make a lot of sense because the pit lanes are much narrower than IndyCar or NASCAR, and people roam about in the F1 pit lane.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

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go_Rubens wrote:
Salamander wrote:
go_Rubens wrote:F1 is unique and has it's own rules. Unsafe pit releases should be reprimanded, which you don't see in most North American racing series. The fact of the matter is, unsafe pit releases are a part of F1, and shall stay that way. People claiming that unsafe releases should not be part of F1 must be messed up in the head (no offense intended). Ridiculous, if you ask me.


aaaa my head whyyyyyyy Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image

So unsafe pit releases should be reprimanded, even though they are a part of F1 and you think people are silly for thinking they shouldn't be? Whaaaat? Do you even read what you write?


Let me rephrase that. Unsafe releases should be reprimanded.

The reason why they are a part of F1 is because teams don't tend to give a crap about others and only seem to care for themselves. Which means this crap happens on race day.

Teams haven't cared about others since the gentleman days of the 50's and early 60's. Why would you care too much about Lotus or whomever down the pit lane when you've got your own race to worry about? Not saying that F1 teams don't care about the safety of people, or that they shouldn't; but the fact of the matter is teams will do whatever they can do to be better.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Eifelland »

With the huge number of mechanics in the boxes, and team members on the pitwall, if an unsafe release went badly wrong, it could hurt dozens of people. Imagine two cars collided, one hits another car mid-stop, when the mechanics will be too focused on getting their man out to turn round and see a fully laden (potentially with fuel) car come ploughing into them, and the other hits the team boss/engineer/race crew up on the walls.

I mean, I know that's really unlikely to happen, and that it's a pretty nightmarish worst-case scenario, but it is possible, with how close everyone is to speeding vehicles. Unsafe releases should be banned.
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Salamander »

Eifelland wrote:Unsafe releases should be banned.


... they are, that's why Force India was penelised.
Sebastian Vettel wrote:If I was good at losing, I wouldn't be in Formula 1
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SgtPepper
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by SgtPepper »

I've been thinking, is it not possible to have an automatic system for pit releases? We already have the lights, but I'm pretty sure they're man operated. If every car has a sensor in it that's used to detect when a drivers crosses through different sector points, surely it could be used know and time when there is a driver coming down the pitlane, and ergo reduce or stop all unsafe releases.
F1 claim to fame - Offending Karun Chandhok 38 minutes into the Korean Grand Prix's FP1.

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Shizuka
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Shizuka »

I've been thinking about RotR for quite a while, so here's my two cents.

Massa admitted that it was his own fault that he retired - after his spin, he was stuck in fifth gear, and that's all she wrote for him that day. It was disappointing, as he had a good weekend up to that point, including a Q3 ahead of Alonso. But all these recent accidents must stop, because this only makes Ferrari lose further WCC points, and finishing only fourth is not impossible, especially if Lotus gets their act together. Montezemolo is getting furious over this, I believe.
Williams could have scored some points here, however, their pit crew decided to lose their biggest chance yet to catch the other disappointment of the year, Sauber. Maldonado has had a good race, only to fall down in the pitlane. If this ends up their biggest chance this year, I won't be happy about it. :( They did so much better after another sad double Q1 dropout, and it all goes awry with the tire changes...
Gutierrez Squared couldn't really match Hülkenberg yet again - while Nico climbed up silently to tenth, passing Rosberg in the end (not seen on TV, thanks directors again :x ), he stuck down on 14th - the same position he qualified in. But this time, he did nothing worthy of RotR, so he's not in the mix for this one.
Lotus' had their biggest chance of winning in a while, and they left Kimi out for way too much. Props where it belong, Vettel didn't break under stress, but Kimi could have won this.
Force India has scored in every race except the (for them, rejectful) Malaysian GP. This isn't good if they want to keep the fifth place in the constructors, especially because their rival, McLaren scored almost quarter of their points tally total here, 12 out of 49. That ten-point deficit could melt down very quick, if they are not careful. Add the unsafe release to their already disappointing weekend...
Red Bull's pit crew almost killed a cameraman, and Webber's race could have been pointless - they are lucky, but this is something we don't want to see. That fine was something they deserved for that wheel.
Bianchi put his car right before the chicane, on the slope. Um, there was a service road a few meters before on the right side. Watch here, I think it's the same spot, where Coulthard parked his McLaren in 2004...Why not just park it there?

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14:03   RaikkonenPlsCare   There's some water in water
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Zetec
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Re: ROTR-Germany 2013

Post by Zetec »

SgtPepper wrote:I've been thinking, is it not possible to have an automatic system for pit releases? We already have the lights, but I'm pretty sure they're man operated. If every car has a sensor in it that's used to detect when a drivers crosses through different sector points, surely it could be used know and time when there is a driver coming down the pitlane, and ergo reduce or stop all unsafe releases.


Thinking about the increasing incidents in the pitlane due to a shorter time the car stands still (I'm still waiting for the race, a lifting-jack gets stuck on the frontwing and gets pulled down the pitlane), it is maybe time to impose a minimum time, the car has to stand still.
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