Stefan GP progress

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 24 Dec 2009, 07:15

RejectSteve wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Couldn't get my hands on an editable copy of the TF109

BMW F1.08, isn't it? Cool to see the coat of arms thrown onto the barge boards. Wouldn't Denso and Lukoil be a conflict of interests though?

Denso makes aftermarket auto parts. Lukoil makes... oil.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 24 Dec 2009, 10:27

kostas22 wrote:Couldn't get my hands on an editable copy of the TF109

I know where you can get one, but the problem is that the guy who made it is incredibly anal about copyright, even though he shares it with thousands of people. He doesn't want it posted anywhere outside a select set of websites. He'd never be able to trace it if it was posted here, but given some of his reactions to minor things, I actually think he's quite unstable.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 24 Dec 2009, 20:51

Captain Hammer wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Couldn't get my hands on an editable copy of the TF109

I know where you can get one, but the problem is that the guy who made it is incredibly anal about copyright, even though he shares it with thousands of people. He doesn't want it posted anywhere outside a select set of websites. He'd never be able to trace it if it was posted here, but given some of his reactions to minor things, I actually think he's quite unstable.

Could you just ask for permission?

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 24 Dec 2009, 23:42

I could - but I already know he'll go off on a tirade.

watka · Post by **watka** » 26 Dec 2009, 23:43

The more and more I hear (or rather don't hear) about USF1, the more I think that we have a chance of seeing Stefan GP around next season. Bernie seems to have a very strong stance on the financial stability of these teams (see also his treatment of Prodrive) and ironically it seems that Stefan GP seems to have a better idea of what their doing than USF1.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 27 Dec 2009, 10:24

watka wrote:The more and more I hear (or rather don't hear) about USF1, the more I think that we have a chance of seeing Stefan GP around next season. Bernie seems to have a very strong stance on the financial stability of these teams (see also his treatment of Prodrive) and ironically it seems that Stefan GP seems to have a better idea of what their doing than USF1.

...Apart from how to get an official entry... :lol:

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 27 Dec 2009, 11:00

dr-baker wrote:
watka wrote:The more and more I hear (or rather don't hear) about USF1, the more I think that we have a chance of seeing Stefan GP around next season. Bernie seems to have a very strong stance on the financial stability of these teams (see also his treatment of Prodrive) and ironically it seems that Stefan GP seems to have a better idea of what their doing than USF1.

...Apart from how to get an official entry...

The reason Stefan GP have any money left is because they didn't bribe the FIA to get in, just like Cosworth bribed the FIA to make their engines mandatory for all the new entries.
USF1 bribed the FIA with 10,000 toasters, Virgin with prostitutes for Max, Campos with 200,000 tonnes of Paella and Lotus with a brand new Airbus A380 for Max's new private jet.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 27 Dec 2009, 13:20

kostas22 wrote:The reason Stefan GP have any money left is because they didn't bribe the FIA to get in, just like Cosworth bribed the FIA to make their engines mandatory for all the new entries.

I'd much rather believe the FIA understood the manufacturer exodus was on the way and didn't want to see a monopoly of engines develop, thus coaxed the new teams to get in bed with Cossie. "Bribe" sounds a bit unfair.

pher38 · Post by **pher38** » 27 Dec 2009, 17:28

Well if Stefan GP are really as ready as they claim to be having bought Toyota's 2010 F1 design then why not let them in and have 28 cars go for 26 places on the grid! 1st qualifying will be thrilling and we would go back to the classic days of the early 90's!

It is funny though that Stefan F1 have quietly dropped their lawsuit against the FIA!

I love the fact we are going back to an F1 where enterprise teams are returning with full grids, rather than the small exclusive $200 million car manufacturers F1 we have suffered for the last decade. We were getting to the point where we could have had 3 car teams which the manufacturers would have 'swallowed' up for themselves and not allowed anyone else to compete.

Now all we need is Lola back in F1 so they can seriously avenge 1997! :mrgreen:

How did USF1 get in ahead of them?

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 27 Dec 2009, 17:41

kostas22 wrote:
pher38 wrote:How did USF1 get in ahead of them?

USF1 bribed the FIA with 10,000 toasters

There's your answer...

pher38 · Post by **pher38** » 27 Dec 2009, 21:45

kostas22 wrote:
kostas22 wrote:
pher38 wrote:How did USF1 get in ahead of them?

USF1 bribed the FIA with 10,000 toasters

There's your answer...

I guess this is what they meant by a "skunk works" approach! The gorillas in the Marketing department will have to convince us otherwise as to how they got their entry! :mrgreen:

watka · Post by **watka** » 27 Dec 2009, 21:56

Got the latest issue of Autosport in front of me. Zoran says that his team really needs to know sooner rather than later if there is a spot for them in 2010 (so basically Campos or USF1 would have to throw in the towel a decent amount of time before Bahrain), however the team would still be testing if they don't get in in preparation for 2011. He also mentions that he would be happy to give anyone with enough money a go in the car, and that if they got into F1, they would not be using Cosworths (although he did not specifically say that they'd use Toyotas).

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 29 Dec 2009, 18:30

Now Stefan GP plans to fund its 2010 testing through a young driver development scheme:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80693

Sounds like a good way for other teams to circumvent the rules and get their mid-season replacements some seat time before going in their own car... Although Fisichella didn't go so well in the Ferrari having been experienced and in the Force all year...

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 29 Dec 2009, 18:42

dr-baker wrote:Now Stefan GP plans to fund its 2010 testing through a young driver development scheme:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80693

Sounds like a good way for other teams to circumvent the rules and get their mid-season replacements some seat time before going in their own car... Although Fisichella didn't go so well in the Ferrari having been experienced and in the Force all year...

But thats because the Ferrari handled like a boat and the KERS system made the brakes as effective as milk bottle tops. Stefan GP at least won't suffer from the latter problem.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 29 Dec 2009, 19:50

In the German language F1 media, it is being reported that the Toyota TF 210 has passed the internal crash tests of the team, having been renamed the Stefan GP 01. I feel they could surprise people if they make it onto the grid with this car this season.
And for that reason alone they should be let in as the 14th entry.

Post by **mario** » 29 Dec 2009, 20:35

Yannick wrote:In the German language F1 media, it is being reported that the Toyota TF 210 has passed the internal crash tests of the team, having been renamed the Stefan GP 01. I feel they could surprise people if they make it onto the grid with this car this season.
And for that reason alone they should be let in as the 14th entry.

I had been interested whether Stefan GP had been able to crash test the car yet - those reports in the German media appear to be right, because the article on the Autosport website about Stefan GP's plans to act as a test team for rookies also mentions that the car passed the crash tests last week with flying colours. However, the rear end may need to be tested again in a few weeks, since they are modifying the design to reduce the weight of the rear end of the car.
To give Stefan his dues, he has turned what sounded like an improbable situation into a very credible team, replete with a large number of the Toyota employees and the use of the facilities in Cologne. At this rate, Stefan GP sounds like it would be a more credible entry then some of the proposed new teams. At the very least, he will be the first reserve team - and I imagine that Bernie is keeping an eye on them in case one of the other new teams happens to collapse before the season starts.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 29 Dec 2009, 21:52

I'm sure the chassis should be, at least, decent. They could try running 28 cars on track. I don't think it would be all that serious.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 29 Dec 2009, 22:12

Phoenix wrote:I'm sure the chassis should be, at least, decent. They could try running 28 cars on track. I don't think it would be all that serious.

I suppose there'd be some issues regarding pit lane sizes and stuff. Could be tough in present day professional F1...

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 29 Dec 2009, 22:15

kostas22 wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Now Stefan GP plans to fund its 2010 testing through a young driver development scheme:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80693

Sounds like a good way for other teams to circumvent the rules and get their mid-season replacements some seat time before going in their own car... Although Fisichella didn't go so well in the Ferrari having been experienced and in the Force all year...

But thats because the Ferrari handled like a boat and the KERS system made the brakes as effective as milk bottle tops. Stefan GP at least won't suffer from the latter problem.

I believe Martin Brundle explained what was going wrong for Fisichella back at Monza: the F60 relied heavily on the engine to brake, something Fisichella was completely unused to.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 30 Dec 2009, 11:03

Captain Hammer wrote:
kostas22 wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Now Stefan GP plans to fund its 2010 testing through a young driver development scheme:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80693

Sounds like a good way for other teams to circumvent the rules and get their mid-season replacements some seat time before going in their own car... Although Fisichella didn't go so well in the Ferrari having been experienced and in the Force all year...

But thats because the Ferrari handled like a boat and the KERS system made the brakes as effective as milk bottle tops. Stefan GP at least won't suffer from the latter problem.

I believe Martin Brundle explained what was going wrong for Fisichella back at Monza: the F60 relied heavily on the engine to brake, something Fisichella was completely unused to.

Fair enough then.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 30 Dec 2009, 16:09

If Stefan GP gets on the grid, it'll be one of the biggest "See, I told you! I TOLD you!!" stories in F1 ever.

And Yannick, the chassis is called S-01, not 01.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 30 Dec 2009, 18:39

I swear, there's more news about Stefan GP than USF1. Bernie! Let these guys get in and dump those Americans. I'm a proud American, but if the best news you can come up with is that you made a website you don't deserve to be on the grid.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 30 Dec 2009, 19:39

tristan1117 wrote:I swear, there's more news about Stefan GP than USF1. Bernie! Let these guys get in and dump those Americans. I'm a proud American, but if the best news you can come up with is that you made a website you don't deserve to be on the grid.

Come on, no need to dump USF1; we can have them both!

watka · Post by **watka** » 30 Dec 2009, 22:06

CarlosFerreira wrote:
tristan1117 wrote:I swear, there's more news about Stefan GP than USF1. Bernie! Let these guys get in and dump those Americans. I'm a proud American, but if the best news you can come up with is that you made a website you don't deserve to be on the grid.

Come on, no need to dump USF1; we can have them both!

I'm quite surprised about the lack of progress from USF1. As far as I remember, they were pretty much committed to applying for F1 back in February/March time, before any mentions of radical cost cutting that attracted the Campos and Manors of this world.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 30 Dec 2009, 22:11

watka wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
tristan1117 wrote:I swear, there's more news about Stefan GP than USF1. Bernie! Let these guys get in and dump those Americans. I'm a proud American, but if the best news you can come up with is that you made a website you don't deserve to be on the grid.

Come on, no need to dump USF1; we can have them both!

I'm quite surprised about the lack of progress from USF1. As far as I remember, they were pretty much committed to applying for F1 back in February/March time, before any mentions of radical cost cutting that attracted the Campos and Manors of this world.

You're absolutely right there. Do you think it's the fact they're further away from the other teams, that they don't know the right journos and don't control the PR circuit? Well, it's not like StefanGP has any of that...

Actually, I was thinking if you put both of them together, you may with luck end up with one half-decent team.

watka · Post by **watka** » 30 Dec 2009, 22:16

Well I suppose that because they are the only true non-European team, they might be a little cut off. Does anyone in America know something we don't?

Alianora La Canta · Post by **Alianora La Canta** » 30 Dec 2009, 23:10

Do you think it's the fact they're further away from the other teams, that they don't know the right journos and don't control the PR circuit? {CarlosFerreria - 2 posts ago}

USF1 have got Peter Windsor on the team; they should know all the F1 journalists worth knowing! Not that they're acting like it at the moment...

Post by **mario** » 30 Dec 2009, 23:53

watka wrote:Well I suppose that because they are the only true non-European team, they might be a little cut off. Does anyone in America know something we don't?

Although not from the States, I can shed a little light on USF1 (but only a little). It appears that construction of the first chassis is under way, with a preview of the chassis shown here.
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... assis.html

As to the design iterations, expected launch date, or anything else you can think of, there is no news on any of those. I would guess that part of the problem might be the lack of interest in USF1 within the States, and the fact that most external observers are spending most of their time questioning the ability of the team to design a car, or asking about the stability of the team.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 31 Dec 2009, 21:54

mario wrote:
watka wrote:Well I suppose that because they are the only true non-European team, they might be a little cut off. Does anyone in America know something we don't?

Although not from the States, I can shed a little light on USF1 (but only a little). It appears that construction of the first chassis is under way, with a preview of the chassis shown here.
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... assis.html

As to the design iterations, expected launch date, or anything else you can think of, there is no news on any of those. I would guess that part of the problem might be the lack of interest in USF1 within the States, and the fact that most external observers are spending most of their time questioning the ability of the team to design a car, or asking about the stability of the team.

I don't think it has something to do with lack of interest within the States. There has to be some kind of internal mess.

watka · Post by **watka** » 31 Dec 2009, 23:23

mario wrote:
watka wrote:Well I suppose that because they are the only true non-European team, they might be a little cut off. Does anyone in America know something we don't?

Although not from the States, I can shed a little light on USF1 (but only a little). It appears that construction of the first chassis is under way, with a preview of the chassis shown here.
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... assis.html

As to the design iterations, expected launch date, or anything else you can think of, there is no news on any of those. I would guess that part of the problem might be the lack of interest in USF1 within the States, and the fact that most external observers are spending most of their time questioning the ability of the team to design a car, or asking about the stability of the team.

Cheers Mario, you always seem to be in the know! Considering the facilities they have at Charlotte and Motorland Aragon, I assumed they must have got somewhere near completing a prototype or 2.

Post by **mario** » 01 Jan 2010, 18:42

Phoenix wrote: I don't think it has something to do with lack of interest within the States. There has to be some kind of internal mess.

Perhaps so - I admit now that looking at the contradictory comments that Windsor has been making along the way, it does seem that he is adjusting things on the fly, which isn't exactly great for the organisation of the team. On the other hand, he is not the only one who seems to be extremely self confident - take, for example, Nick Wirth in this article http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80705
In fact, that article provides a real gem of a quote, when he talks about the effectiveness of CFD:

Nick Wirth wrote:"What we're actively looking to do right now - I've got an 11-year-old son and a 14-year-old daughter, we'd really like to stop the ice caps slipping off Greenland and flooding everybody - we'd like to see applications of this technology help the real world."

All very well and noble, but trying to present CFD as a completely clean research tool is frankly rubbish - after all, we are talking about the use of multiple computer arrays and server banks, if you want to model the very fine flow details, which are going to be very energy intensive. And what is the lifespan of a super computer? A few years? After all, BMW were supplementing Albert (their CFD computer), which they'd bought in 2006, with Albert 2, an even more powerful supercomputer, with the cost being a few tens of millions of dollars for installation and operating costs.

Ultimately, there is a lot of publiciocrap floating around many of the new teams - mainly because I guess that they have to pump it out there to ensure that some bored journalist is listening.
And Watka, thanks for your compliments - as I've said, I simply try to keep abreast of developments.

But anyway, back, finally, to the topic, and Stefan GP. Well, there is some precedence in spending a year testing before entering - in fact, that was exactly what Toyota chose to do (although it didn't set them up for a barnstorming first season). In some ways, there is some sense in it - it gives the team longer to modify the Toyota chassis, and also understand it's behaviour, and to integrate the ex-Toyota employees into the company.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 01 Jan 2010, 18:48

mario wrote:
Phoenix wrote: I don't think it has something to do with lack of interest within the States. There has to be some kind of internal mess.

Perhaps so - I admit now that looking at the contradictory comments that Windsor has been making along the way, it does seem that he is adjusting things on the fly, which isn't exactly great for the organisation of the team. On the other hand, he is not the only one who seems to be extremely self confident - take, for example, Nick Wirth in this article http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80705
In fact, that article provides a real gem of a quote, when he talks about the effectiveness of CFD:
Nick Wirth wrote:"What we're actively looking to do right now - I've got an 11-year-old son and a 14-year-old daughter, we'd really like to stop the ice caps slipping off Greenland and flooding everybody - we'd like to see applications of this technology help the real world."

All very well and noble, but trying to present CFD as a completely clean research tool is frankly rubbish - after all, we are talking about the use of multiple computer arrays and server banks, if you want to model the very fine flow details, which are going to be very energy intensive. And what is the lifespan of a super computer? A few years? After all, BMW were supplementing Albert (their CFD computer), which they'd bought in 2006, with Albert 2, an even more powerful supercomputer, with the cost being a few tens of millions of dollars for installation and operating costs.

Ultimately, there is a lot of publiciocrap floating around many of the new teams - mainly because I guess that they have to pump it out there to ensure that some bored journalist is listening.
And Watka, thanks for your compliments - as I've said, I simply try to keep abreast of developments.

But anyway, back, finally, to the topic, and Stefan GP. Well, there is some precedence in spending a year testing before entering - in fact, that was exactly what Toyota chose to do (although it didn't set them up for a barnstorming first season). In some ways, there is some sense in it - it gives the team longer to modify the Toyota chassis, and also understand it's behaviour, and to integrate the ex-Toyota employees into the company.

I'm far from being an engineer, but how could his CFD technology stop climate change?
Leaving all the mockery a Serbian F1 team attracts aside, if they're planning to spend this year testing to compete in 2011, they're looking really serious, even if they borrowed the car from Toyota.

Alianora La Canta · Post by **Alianora La Canta** » 01 Jan 2010, 23:49

I'm far from being an engineer, but how could his CFD technology stop climate change? {Phoenix - previous comment}

Because mapping airflow round an F1 car is not a million miles off mapping airflow around a planet - which makes it easier to map how all sorts of weather phenomena could happen in future. Applying it to other levels of the atmosphere helps with mapping the future shape of the ozone layer, among other things. Taken together, a decent prediction of climate change could be made possible using CFD technology.

Of course, the static models involved will be completely different, unless Earth suddenly becomes F1-car shaped. However, the rules of airflow apply in macro as well as micro.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 02 Jan 2010, 11:54

Alianora La Canta wrote:I'm far from being an engineer, but how could his CFD technology stop climate change? {Phoenix - previous comment}

Because mapping airflow round an F1 car is not a million miles off mapping airflow around a planet - which makes it easier to map how all sorts of weather phenomena could happen in future. Applying it to other levels of the atmosphere helps with mapping the future shape of the ozone layer, among other things. Taken together, a decent prediction of climate change could be made possible using CFD technology.

Of course, the static models involved will be completely different, unless Earth suddenly becomes F1-car shaped. However, the rules of airflow apply in macro as well as micro.

You always learn something new every day!

Post by **mario** » 02 Jan 2010, 12:07

Alianora La Canta wrote:I'm far from being an engineer, but how could his CFD technology stop climate change? {Phoenix - previous comment}

Because mapping airflow round an F1 car is not a million miles off mapping airflow around a planet - which makes it easier to map how all sorts of weather phenomena could happen in future. Applying it to other levels of the atmosphere helps with mapping the future shape of the ozone layer, among other things. Taken together, a decent prediction of climate change could be made possible using CFD technology.

Of course, the static models involved will be completely different, unless Earth suddenly becomes F1-car shaped. However, the rules of airflow apply in macro as well as micro.

You can add to that other factors, like modelling pollutant dispersion within cities. I know of examples where CFD has been used to model pollutant dispersion at street level, between buildings.
However, I thought that it was too computationally intensive to use for large scale flows (e.g. when modelling an entire city, or at a regional level), and instead for flows on that sort of scale, they tend to fall back on simplified models instead.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 02 Jan 2010, 12:45

I work with some people who do Climate Modelling. I can tell you it's mind-bogglingly complex.

Even more, CFD's evolution can be translated into new cars' design, making them ever more aerodynamic and, as a result, more efficient and less polluting. Marginal gains, all the way - saving the world, bit by bit.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 02 Jan 2010, 15:03

According to Spanish web thef1.com, Stefan GP, seeing it's unlikely they will compete next season, will rent their contender, the S-01, to pay drivers, both professional and particular drivers, in order to test the car in a testing programme parallel to FIA and FOTA rules. The car, based in the was-going-to-be next year's Toyota, has recently passed successfully FIA's mandatory crash tests. They see this as a form of retrieving some of the inversion they made to buy Toyota's assets.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 02 Jan 2010, 15:11

Did we not already know this?

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 02 Jan 2010, 15:13

shinji wrote:Did we not already know this?

I didn't see a thread saying that. Or should have I made some more investigation work?

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 02 Jan 2010, 15:18

Phoenix wrote:
shinji wrote:Did we not already know this?

I didn't see a thread saying that. Or should have I made some more investigation work?

http://www.f1rejects.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=876

You could have just put this there.