Panoz sues Nissan over ZEOD RC similarity to DeltaWing

[FMecha]

This won't go well...

...especially if you are waiting for GT6.

Discuss.

[Alextrax52]

...especially if you are waiting for GT6.

NOOOO!!! I was looking forward to racing the Deltawing

[roblo97]

...especially if you are waiting for GT6.

NOOOO!!! I was looking forward to racing the Deltawing

Same here

The thing is, both cars were designed by the same man so there are bound to be simularities between them.

On the other hand, remember what happened with the Arrows A1?

[SeedStriker]

Well, this looks more like a contest of egos. Panoz need to understand that Nissan put the money to continue the development of the Delta Wing, and the ZEOD RC is clearly the evolution of it, but Nissan should've put a "Panoz" in the car. Having in mind the poor performance of the original Delta in the WEC, Panoz should ask themselves if there's something to gain of all this.

[roblo97]

Well, this looks more like a contest of egos. Panoz need to understand that Nissan put the money to continue the development of the Delta Wing, and the ZEOD RC is clearly the evolution of it, but Nissan should've put a "Panoz" in the car. Having in mind the poor performance of the original Delta in the WEC, Panoz should ask themselves if there's something to gain of all this.

10 minutes of fame... then filing for bankruptcy?

[pi314159]

Well, this looks more like a contest of egos. Panoz need to understand that Nissan put the money to continue the development of the Delta Wing, and the ZEOD RC is clearly the evolution of it, but Nissan should've put a "Panoz" in the car. Having in mind the poor performance of the original Delta in the WEC, Panoz should ask themselves if there's something to gain of all this.

A little correction, the DeltaWing did only one WEC race, Le Mans 2012, as a non-championship (Garage 56) entry. It competed in the 2012 Petit Le Mans, and in this years' ALMS season. But yes, the performance of the car has been quite poor, apart from Road America. I wonder if it's the DeltaWing concept that's the problem, or just the Panoz car. But why did Nissan go for the DeltaWing concept again with the poor results of the DeltaWing? Because it looks different from the other cars and they hope to get more publicity through that?

[FMecha]

Well, this looks more like a contest of egos. Panoz need to understand that Nissan put the money to continue the development of the Delta Wing, and the ZEOD RC is clearly the evolution of it, but Nissan should've put a "Panoz" in the car. Having in mind the poor performance of the original Delta in the WEC, Panoz should ask themselves if there's something to gain of all this.

Chip Ganassi actually owns the car design IIRC, and everyone else (AAR, Ben Bowlby, Nissan) parted ways with Panoz when he took over the project.

[SeedStriker]

A little correction, the DeltaWing did only one WEC race, Le Mans 2012, as a non-championship (Garage 56) entry. It competed in the 2012 Petit Le Mans, and in this years' ALMS season. But yes, the performance of the car has been quite poor, apart from Road America. I wonder if it's the DeltaWing concept that's the problem, or just the Panoz car. But why did Nissan go for the DeltaWing concept again with the poor results of the DeltaWing? Because it looks different from the other cars and they hope to get more publicity through that?

Maybe Nissan found something that Panoz didn't with the Delta and it's continuing the development. If not, maybe it's just a tech exercise for Nissan.

[AndreaModa]

I can't help but feel a legal battle was inevitable in all of this. Not that it really matters, as others have pointed out, it hasn't been very competitive. The DeltaWing is just a fancy bit of bodywork and a narrow front axle, nothing particularly ground-breaking or special.

A little correction, the DeltaWing did only one WEC race, Le Mans 2012, as a non-championship (Garage 56) entry. It competed in the 2012 Petit Le Mans, and in this years' ALMS season. But yes, the performance of the car has been quite poor, apart from Road America. I wonder if it's the DeltaWing concept that's the problem, or just the Panoz car. But why did Nissan go for the DeltaWing concept again with the poor results of the DeltaWing? Because it looks different from the other cars and they hope to get more publicity through that?

Maybe Nissan found something that Panoz didn't with the Delta and it's continuing the development. If not, maybe it's just a tech exercise for Nissan.

I think it's just being used as a test bed for Nissan's full electric powertrain in preparation for a full scale assault on the WEC with it in coming years. The design is, as you say, purely to attract a bit more publicity I should imagine.

[mario]

I can't help but feel a legal battle was inevitable in all of this. Not that it really matters, as others have pointed out, it hasn't been very competitive. The DeltaWing is just a fancy bit of bodywork and a narrow front axle, nothing particularly ground-breaking or special.

A little correction, the DeltaWing did only one WEC race, Le Mans 2012, as a non-championship (Garage 56) entry. It competed in the 2012 Petit Le Mans, and in this years' ALMS season. But yes, the performance of the car has been quite poor, apart from Road America. I wonder if it's the DeltaWing concept that's the problem, or just the Panoz car. But why did Nissan go for the DeltaWing concept again with the poor results of the DeltaWing? Because it looks different from the other cars and they hope to get more publicity through that?

Maybe Nissan found something that Panoz didn't with the Delta and it's continuing the development. If not, maybe it's just a tech exercise for Nissan.

I think it's just being used as a test bed for Nissan's full electric powertrain in preparation for a full scale assault on the WEC with it in coming years. The design is, as you say, purely to attract a bit more publicity I should imagine.

I guess that part of the reduction in competitiveness would be the fact that the original engine, built by Nissan, has been replaced with a Mazda engine that has been less reliable than anticipated. Moreover, you have to wonder if the unconventional nature of the car has hurt the team quite badly when it comes to, for example, making set up adjustments - how do you know where to begin when you are working with a car that has no known baseline against which you can work from?

Let's be honest, given that Nissan rather unashamedly poached a large chunk of the original design team for this project, it is not surprising that the final car should be so similar to the original (and therefore attracted the attention of Panoz).
Ostensibly, this is a rolling testbed for a hybrid drive system that they are considering using in a planned LMP1 car, or at least that is what they have publicly said is the case. It is very much the case that Nissan are using the unconventional looks to attract attention - as others have pointed out, only relatively keen motorsport fans know or care about Porsche returning to the LMP1 class, but many more are aware and are interested in Nissan's efforts (especially since Nissan, unlike Porsche, are aware about how to publicise themselves outside of the traditional outlets like Autosport or Auto Hebdo).

[Wallio]

I guess that part of the reduction in competitiveness would be the fact that the original engine, built by Nissan, has been replaced with a Mazda engine that has been less reliable than anticipated. Moreover, you have to wonder if the unconventional nature of the car has hurt the team quite badly when it comes to, for example, making set up adjustments - how do you know where to begin when you are working with a car that has no known baseline against which you can work from?

Let's be honest, given that Nissan rather unashamedly poached a large chunk of the original design team for this project, it is not surprising that the final car should be so similar to the original (and therefore attracted the attention of Panoz).
Ostensibly, this is a rolling testbed for a hybrid drive system that they are considering using in a planned LMP1 car, or at least that is what they have publicly said is the case. It is very much the case that Nissan are using the unconventional looks to attract attention - as others have pointed out, only relatively keen motorsport fans know or care about Porsche returning to the LMP1 class, but many more are aware and are interested in Nissan's efforts (especially since Nissan, unlike Porsche, are aware about how to publicise themselves outside of the traditional outlets like Autosport or Auto Hebdo).

Nissan just used the DW for PR purposes. It was an Aston Martin with a Chevy engine in it, but it was "all Nissan". By creating a DW clone, they are locking up more PR. As has been said the car is merely the test hack for the driveline of their upcoming LMP1, this design keeps them in the news until that car is done. Win-Win

As for why the car isn't competitive, the engine can't be used as a stressed member, so your left with few usable options there. But mostly its because aside from the changes required by the ACO and ALMS the car hasn't changed. Remember this was the official reason Indycar didn't pick it up, Blowby and company wouldn't allow anyone to develop the car. At all. Any and all parts had to come from the DW company itself, so no aerokits (which Indycar abandoned anyway), no suspension pieces or wing mirrors, nothing. Don is probably using that legalese of no outside development as his case, which makes sense considering 75% of Nissan's team was in on the original DW.

[Jonny83]

Stupid question and I admit to not knowing all the details (either of the ZEOD or copyright/IP protection law), but can you really copyright something like a car's layout?

It makes as much sense as Lotus suing everyone else in 1979, or Cooper in 1960 (I know Auto Union etc. but the point stands).

If actual bespoke components and/or technical drawings have been ripped off as in the Arrows/Shadow thing fair enough, and if parts of the ZEOD are straight copies from the DW then I can see how they'd have a case, but can an idea, a concept in a racing car be copyrighted this way?

And if so, what's to stop Red Bull the next time Newey has a brain-wave idea from copyrighting it so other teams can't use it? (OK the FIA would just go ahead and ban it knowing them, but still)

[mario]

Stupid question and I admit to not knowing all the details (either of the ZEOD or copyright/IP protection law), but can you really copyright something like a car's layout?

It makes as much sense as Lotus suing everyone else in 1979, or Cooper in 1960 (I know Auto Union etc. but the point stands).

If actual bespoke components and/or technical drawings have been ripped off as in the Arrows/Shadow thing fair enough, and if parts of the ZEOD are straight copies from the DW then I can see how they'd have a case, but can an idea, a concept in a racing car be copyrighted this way?

And if so, what's to stop Red Bull the next time Newey has a brain-wave idea from copyrighting it so other teams can't use it? (OK the FIA would just go ahead and ban it knowing them, but still)

It seems that Panoz think that the similarity is more than superficial - the case would probably turn on the design of the rear suspension and differential of the car, both of which could have been patented by Panoz, as the design of those components is critical for making the car work as a whole.

As for the idea of obtaining legal protection for components, it is generally fairly rare for that to happen in motorsport. Lotus did patent certain components of their interlinked suspension system, but part of the reason that teams do not want to patent ideas is because the patent process involves revealing details of the design to demonstrate that it is genuinely innovative.

Moreover, there is the issue of the timeframes involved - since the conventional legal avenues are relatively lengthy, it is entirely plausible that, should a team apply for a patent for a particular concept, that their rivals would have sufficiently developed those components to the point where the patent to be unenforceable.
Added to that, there is perhaps a fear that throwing around legal suits would rapidly end up in a very messy legal situation - the teams will often copy visible parts from each other over the course of a season, so the possibility of financial mutually assured destruction through expensive legal cases is probably a strong deterrence. It's often when non superficial components are copied that legal action starts being used, since those methods tend to involve more questionable methods of acquiring that information (from more innocent methods like hiring a particular designer to more disreputable methods like hacking into rivals computers or stealing blueprints).

[FMecha]

With nothing to be heard about Panoz vs Nissan, it appears that the DeltaWing will be back for GT6. But this time NOT ONE - BUT TWO! (The black and the chrome)

[dr-baker]

With nothing to be heard about Panoz vs Nissan, it appears that the DeltaWing will be back for GT6. But this time NOT ONE - BUT TWO! (The black and the chrome)

Nice... May encourage me to go out and buy the game (even though I have barely played GT5 yet. )

[FMecha]

One/two years later, and I've found out how complicated the whole matter is. Here's the recap of the DeltaWing legal dispute so far.

[Yannick]

This is sad. This lawsuit is likely going to keep any of the proposed road cars from being produced until they are outdated or have been copied by a Chinese company as a "tribute" to the original Delta Wing.
The manufacturers of "conventional" road sports cars will probably rejoice at this.