What If?

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 23 Nov 2013, 21:47

What if Jarno Trulli was signed by McLaren for 2002?

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 23 Nov 2013, 21:51

good_Ralf wrote:What if Jarno Trulli was signed by McLaren for 2002?

Trulli to Mclaren? When did that fly around the paddock during that Particular off season?

And if he did his luck would have been even more appalling than usual with the Fragile Mercedes engine. I wouldn't be surprised if it blew up just by him sitting in the car

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 23 Nov 2013, 21:58

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:What if Jarno Trulli was signed by McLaren for 2002?

Trulli to Mclaren? When did that fly around the paddock during that Particular off season?

I've never heard this one either, I only heard of how Mr.Excitement himself Nick Heidfeld missed out on the seat.

Trulli would have been interesting, he'd done well for Jordan, so it probably wouldn't have been a terrible move on McLaren's part.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 23 Nov 2013, 22:13

Watching the 2001 Hungarian GP, the commentators said that behind Hakkinen in the race there were 3 contenders for a seat at McLaren in 2002: Kimi Raikkonen, Nick Heidfeld and Jarno Trulli. An odd move, yes, but it would have been interesting. Jarno would almost certainly have won in Monaco with reliability.

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 24 Nov 2013, 10:45

good_Ralf wrote:Watching the 2001 Hungarian GP, the commentators said that behind Hakkinen in the race there were 3 contenders for a seat at McLaren in 2002: Kimi Raikkonen, Nick Heidfeld and Jarno Trulli. An odd move, yes, but it would have been interesting. Jarno would almost certainly have won in Monaco with reliability.

Jarno Trulli reminds me a lot of NASCAR's Matt Kenseth in consistency back in those days. It's probably safe to say that the lack of Americans in F1 is due to NASCAR's money. So what if NASCAR didn't exist?

Hound55 · Post by **Hound55** » 24 Nov 2013, 20:46

Onxy Wrecked wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:Watching the 2001 Hungarian GP, the commentators said that behind Hakkinen in the race there were 3 contenders for a seat at McLaren in 2002: Kimi Raikkonen, Nick Heidfeld and Jarno Trulli. An odd move, yes, but it would have been interesting. Jarno would almost certainly have won in Monaco with reliability.

Jarno Trulli reminds me a lot of NASCAR's Matt Kenseth in consistency back in those days. It's probably safe to say that the lack of Americans in F1 is due to NASCAR's money. So what if NASCAR didn't exist?

I wouldn't say it's all money, but a mixture between that and the prominence of local short tracks makes development easier for oval racers. However, if NASCAR didn't exist, F1 would have a huge presence in the US, and NHRA would be much more popular. Also, ALMS would be the only road course series in the US, and would have been much more popular.

eichy · Post by **eichy** » 24 Nov 2013, 21:41

Hound55 wrote:
Onxy Wrecked wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:Watching the 2001 Hungarian GP, the commentators said that behind Hakkinen in the race there were 3 contenders for a seat at McLaren in 2002: Kimi Raikkonen, Nick Heidfeld and Jarno Trulli. An odd move, yes, but it would have been interesting. Jarno would almost certainly have won in Monaco with reliability.

Jarno Trulli reminds me a lot of NASCAR's Matt Kenseth in consistency back in those days. It's probably safe to say that the lack of Americans in F1 is due to NASCAR's money. So what if NASCAR didn't exist?

I wouldn't say it's all money, but a mixture between that and the prominence of local short tracks makes development easier for oval racers. However, if NASCAR didn't exist, F1 would have a huge presence in the US, and NHRA would be much more popular. Also, ALMS would be the only road course series in the US, and would have been much more popular.

Without NASCAR, IndyCar truly rivals F1 for the #1 racing series in the world. And with competitive IndyCar fields in the late 90s/early 00s, and Schumacher's dominance, it probably becomes at least the most popular.

Hound55 · Post by **Hound55** » 25 Nov 2013, 16:09

eichy wrote:
Hound55 wrote:
Onxy Wrecked wrote:Jarno Trulli reminds me a lot of NASCAR's Matt Kenseth in consistency back in those days. It's probably safe to say that the lack of Americans in F1 is due to NASCAR's money. So what if NASCAR didn't exist?

I wouldn't say it's all money, but a mixture between that and the prominence of local short tracks makes development easier for oval racers. However, if NASCAR didn't exist, F1 would have a huge presence in the US, and NHRA would be much more popular. Also, ALMS would be the only road course series in the US, and would have been much more popular.

Without NASCAR, IndyCar truly rivals F1 for the #1 racing series in the world. And with competitive IndyCar fields in the late 90s/early 00s, and Schumacher's dominance, it probably becomes at least the most popular.

But who is to say someone in NASCAR currently wouldn't dominate in Indycar as well? The NASCAR drivers have to go somewhere, and Indycar makes the most sense. Maybe someone like Tony Stewart or Kurt Busch could be a real force in Indycar in an alternate NASCAR free world.

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 25 Nov 2013, 17:29

Hound55 wrote:But who is to say someone in NASCAR currently wouldn't dominate in Indycar as well? The NASCAR drivers have to go somewhere, and Indycar makes the most sense. Maybe someone like Tony Stewart or Kurt Busch could be a real force in Indycar in an alternate NASCAR free world.

In fact, that is what Tony Stewart did before he went to NASCAR was win a couple IndyCar Championships leaving the implications of money. How many of the NASCAR drivers would have the talent or funds. We certainly know the likes of Brian Scott, John Wes Townley, and Paul Menard would be in IndyCar peddling their sources of funding on the liveries.

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 26 Nov 2013, 14:36

What if the 2012 Malaysian GP had not been restarted, and Narain Karthikeyan would have been classified in 10th?

andrew2209 · Post by **andrew2209** » 26 Nov 2013, 17:45

pi314159 wrote:What if the 2012 Malaysian GP had not been restarted, and Narain Karthikeyan would have been classified in 10th?

HRT would've recieved a lot more money, and may have survived for 2013.

Formula 1 has a lot of explaining to do, after the race only lasts for 9 laps, and results are taken from the end of the 7th lap, beating the infamous record of the 1991 Australian Grand Prix for shortest F1 race.

David AGS · Post by **David AGS** » 01 Dec 2013, 08:37

They could have received a little bit more cash, and obviously would have been the first 'new team' to score points.

And, oh 'cbbcisace' will be happy, hes the passionate HRT fan!

Post by **mario** » 01 Dec 2013, 10:34

andrew2209 wrote:
pi314159 wrote:What if the 2012 Malaysian GP had not been restarted, and Narain Karthikeyan would have been classified in 10th?

HRT would've recieved a lot more money, and may have survived for 2013.

Formula 1 has a lot of explaining to do, after the race only lasts for 9 laps, and results are taken from the end of the 7th lap, beating the infamous record of the 1991 Australian Grand Prix for shortest F1 race.

I guess it would have depended on when the funds came through, as well as how much they might have received due to the way that the funds are allocated (Column 1, which represents half of the prize fund, is split evenly between the top 10 teams, Column 2 is split between the top 10 teams in terms of their position in the WCC and Column 3 was a supplementary prize fund for the new teams that have entered F1 recently). It would have changed the financial situation of several teams in quite different ways though, and that is interesting to explore.

It is worth noting that, at the time, the new teams were still receiving a payment of $10 million if they finished outside of the top 10, and the indication is that the teams need to have finished in the top 10 at least twice in the past three years to be eligible for the Column 1 prize fund. Now, Marussia are thought to have received about $14 million for finishing in the top 10 and being eligible for Column 2 funding, plus they might also earn the $10 million for Column 3 entrants too (giving a total income of $24 million).
Caterham, it seems, won't earn the Column 3 fund but are eligible for Column 1 money, so the indication is that they are still due a payment of $35 million - so although they have been beaten by Marussia, their historical performance advantage means that they are still earning more from FOM than Marussia are at the moment.

Now, had HRT stayed in 10th place, it is reasonable to assume that they'd have received a similar payment of about $14 million - that said, HRT's biggest problems were short term cash flow related as the payments from FOM are only made some time after the end of the season (they appear to be made at the start of the following year). With HRT already in financial difficulty before then, I still think that they might have collapsed before receiving any payments from FOM, unless they could obtain a bridging loan from one season to the next that was secured against that promised payment.

If that is the case, that might have had an interesting impact on Caterham for now and in 2014. If they hadn't finished the 2012 season in that 10th place in the WCC, then they would not be eligible for Column 1 funding this season - if we allow for the Column 3 prize fund they would get, Caterham would still end up losing $25 million from losing out on Column 1 and Column 2 funding this season, rather than just the $14 million they've lost from losing out to Marussia. The net impact from HRT finishing in 10th in the WCC might have ended up having a far bigger impact on the teams that would have lost out rather than on HRT itself.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 06 Dec 2013, 04:30

What If cigarette sponsorship wasn't banned?

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 06 Dec 2013, 04:44

Dark77 wrote:What If cigarette sponsorship wasn't banned?

That would mean that Big Tobacco won its case against the US federal government. Penske and Ferrari with Marlboro liveries would still be cruising the circuits of the world. I still suspect it would be the Winston Cup Series in NASCAR, and of course larger grids in NASCAR and IndyCar which means more talent or pay drivers around.

AustralianStig · Post by **AustralianStig** » 06 Dec 2013, 04:45

Dark77 wrote:What If cigarette sponsorship wasn't banned?

Not really F1 related but I remember hearing somewhere when cigarette advertising was banned in most places around the world cigarette companies made record profits - they weren't spending the money on advertising but were still all in the same boat as each other so didn't lose their market presence.

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 08 Dec 2013, 04:52

What if the Toyota TF110 raced?

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 08 Dec 2013, 13:25

go_Rubens wrote:What if the Toyota TF110 raced?

With whom? If it was with Stefan, then they might have fluked a win in the rain (maybe Korea?) but I doubt they would have competed in the championship with Villeneuve and Nakajima driving the car. If it was with Toyota, they would have gotten more consistent results having more resources but they wouldn't have won a race. I still think Toyota would have found a way to bottle up victories. And that would have been the difference between 1st and 3rd in the WCC, given how close everyone was that season. Toyota probably gets bored of losing and calls it a day.

Post by **mario** » 08 Dec 2013, 15:32

Aerospeed wrote:
go_Rubens wrote:What if the Toyota TF110 raced?

With whom? If it was with Stefan, then they might have fluked a win in the rain (maybe Korea?) but I doubt they would have competed in the championship with Villeneuve and Nakajima driving the car. If it was with Toyota, they would have gotten more consistent results having more resources but they wouldn't have won a race. I still think Toyota would have found a way to bottle up victories. And that would have been the difference between 1st and 3rd in the WCC, given how close everyone was that season. Toyota probably gets bored of losing and calls it a day.

I think that it would have been possible for Toyota to win a race based on the fact that their fuel consumption over a race distance was reportedly quite a bit better than their rivals, albeit at the expense of peak power. From what I can recall, the TF110 was designed around a fuel load of about 130-135kg, whereas the few hints from other teams would put their fuel consumption at about 150kg per race - that's a potentially significant advantage in the opening phase of a race.

It is plausible that, were the TF110 as competitive as some suggest it might have been, that Toyota could have influenced both the WDC and WCC as a result if you had a fourth party that could take podiums on any given weekend. It's also worth noting that a top 3 finish for Toyota would be a quite respectable finish nevertheless in the WCC - it would have meant that they'd have beaten either McLaren or Ferrari as well as the newly formed Mercedes team - and mark their highest finish in the WCC.

That said, I would have expected Toyota to withdraw from F1 sooner rather than later - their desire to return to sportscar racing was a rather open secret for at least a year or two before they pulled out, so it was probably a matter of when, not if, that was going to happen.

mrfakeboullier · Post by **mrfakeboullier** » 08 Dec 2013, 19:50

What if Schumacher didnt break his leg in 99?
What if Kubica didn't have his rally crash?
What if Toyota won a race in 2005?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 Dec 2013, 22:08

mrfakeboullier wrote:What if Schumacher didnt break his leg in 99?

Mika Hakkinen = 1-time world champion; Schumi = 8-time world champ

mrfakeboullier wrote:What if Kubica didn't have his rally crash?

Multiple race winner, world championship podium finisher (possibly champ?)

mrfakeboullier wrote:What if Toyota won a race in 2005?

Wouldn't be quite such a shocking history in the category for them; probably would still have left F1 for sportscars by now.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 08 Dec 2013, 22:12

dr-baker wrote:
mrfakeboullier wrote:What if Toyota won a race in 2005?

Wouldn't be quite such a shocking history in the category for them; probably would still have left F1 for sportscars by now.

They were close in Spa and who knows what they could have done had they stuck to a more orthodox strategy in Suzuka.

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 08 Dec 2013, 22:21

mrfakeboullier wrote:What if Schumacher didnt break his leg in 99?

He would have definitely won the title. Because Mika Salo would not have replaced Schumacher, he possibly wouldn't have got the drive at Sauber for 2000, leaving the seat there open for Jos Verstappen or Luca Badoer perhaps. And Toyota may not have been interested in Salo either, meaning perhaps Toranosuke Takagi gets the Toyota development drive in 2001 (Toyota were rumoured to be interested in him before getting Salo). Otherwise, Hakkinen still retires in 2001, now only with one world championship, Irvine leaves Ferrari at the end of the season to Jaguar and is replaced by Barrichello, pretty much all the same. Michael Schumacher ends his career with 8 world championships.

mrfakeboullier wrote:What if Kubica didn't have his rally crash?

The 2011 Lotus started the season well, Kubica would have probably got a few podium finishes and consistently scored points and generally done better than Petrov, Heidfeld and Senna. Not well enough to challenge Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes though. For 2012 I don't think Enstone would have hired Kimi Raikkonen because they had Kubica instead, so their line-up would have been Kubica and Grosjean. Does that mean Raikkonen doesn't get a seat? He had been in negotiations with Williams, but I don't think they had been able to work out a deal, and I'm not sure if they would have - though perhaps not having the Enstone seat means Raikkonen considers Williams more seriously. Kubica would have done well in 2012 and could have won his second race at Abu Dhabi. If Raikkonen is at Williams he probably wins Spain instead of Maldonado. For 2013 Ferrari sack Massa and hire Kubica.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 08 Dec 2013, 22:28

mrfakeboullier wrote:What if Kubica didn't have his rally crash?

Ferrari would've dumped Massa for him after 2011, and would've won the WCC as a result in 2012. Kubica would stay in range of Alonso all season long, but the two would inevitably take points off each other and allow Vettel a clearer run at the title.

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 14 Dec 2013, 22:33

What if Ecclestone and Mosley had lost the FISA-FOCA war completely?

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 14 Dec 2013, 22:38

pi314159 wrote:What if Ecclestone and Mosley had lost the FISA-FOCA war completely?

I reckon that there would have been less income for the team through lack of television money and there would be just manufacture teams on the grid. The safety standards would not be as high as they are today either.

wmetcalf68 · Post by **wmetcalf68** » 15 Dec 2013, 15:47

What if Ukyo Katayama signed the contract that he got offered from a top team? (team is still unknown)
What if Katayama won the 1994 German GP with Tyrell?
What if Michael Schumacher didn't have a 5-place grid penalty at the 2012 Monaco GP?
What if Hulkenberg hadn't collided with Hamilton at the 2012 Brazilian GP?
What if Schumacher didn't hurt his neck before he was going to replace Massa in 2009?

Julien · Post by **Julien** » 15 Dec 2013, 21:51

wmetcalf68 wrote:What if Ukyo Katayama signed the contract that he got offered from a top team? (team is still unknown)

Most likely he would have been dropped by the end of the season.

wmetcalf68 wrote:What if Katayama won the 1994 German GP with Tyrell?

That is rather unlikely... You might as well asked what if Albers would have won the 2005 USA GP

wmetcalf68 wrote:What if Michael Schumacher didn't have a 5-place grid penalty at the 2012 Monaco GP?

He would have retired from the lead with fuel pressure problems. It would have been a hearth-braking experience for every Formula 1 fan...

wmetcalf68 wrote:What if Hulkenberg hadn't collided with Hamilton at the 2012 Brazilian GP?

He would be driving a Ferrari already

wmetcalf68 wrote:What if Schumacher didn't hurt his neck before he was going to replace Massa in 2009?

He would have performed rejectfully just as Badoer and Fisichella did and he would have never returned with Mercedes.

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 15 Dec 2013, 22:09

What if Robin Frijns accepted Red Bull's backing rather than go it alone, and thus almost certainly got an F1 drive?

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 15 Dec 2013, 22:59

wmetcalf68 wrote:What if Hulkenberg hadn't collided with Hamilton at the 2012 Brazilian GP?

His first podium/win and Force India's best result. Or probably a fairytale win for Hamilton.

Belegur · Post by **Belegur** » 16 Dec 2013, 11:02

What if Nelson Piquet hadn't had his crash at Tamburello in 87? He has said this year that he was never the same after that, having initially lost 80% of his depth perception. Could he have done much more with Lotus if he still had all his ability and racecraft?

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 16 Dec 2013, 13:18

Belegur wrote:What if Nelson Piquet hadn't had his crash at Tamburello in 87? He has said this year that he was never the same after that, having initially lost 80% of his depth perception. Could he have done much more with Lotus if he still had all his ability and racecraft?

I don't think he would got much more out of that Lotus, but i'm sure that his Benetton results would be a lot better.

Post by **Londoner** » 16 Dec 2013, 14:45

This wrote:
Belegur wrote:What if Nelson Piquet hadn't had his crash at Tamburello in 87? He has said this year that he was never the same after that, having initially lost 80% of his depth perception. Could he have done much more with Lotus if he still had all his ability and racecraft?

I don't think he would got much more out of that Lotus, but i'm sure that his Benetton results would be a lot better.

Pretty much this. Lotus were well in decline even before Senna was replaced with Piquet, as the 1987 car wasn't brilliant by any means. The 1988 car was more or less the previous year's car fitted with a smaller fuel tank, and the active suspension removed.

Benetton of course, were in the ascendency. I reckon he might have been able to take some more podiums with the B190, and he might have had the measure of a certain punk German kid who turned up in the latter half of 1991.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 20 Dec 2013, 22:11

What if Ayrton Senna raced in IndyCar in 1993 or 4?

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 20 Dec 2013, 22:33

good_Ralf wrote:What if Ayrton Senna raced in IndyCar in 1993 or 4?

Mansell takes Senna's place at McLaren. Senna dominates the series. Prost stays on in f1 until 1995 but he wins the title in 1994 & 1995. Mansell doesn't get on with Ron Dennis and quits at the end of 1994.

cretoxyrhina · Post by **cretoxyrhina** » 21 Dec 2013, 04:54

good_Ralf wrote:What if Ayrton Senna raced in IndyCar in 1993 or 4?

In 1993, given that it was said that the Penske PC22 was better than its records show (Penske won 8 races out of 16), it was very possible that Senna will be in the mix for the title. Imagine the 1993 IndyCar championship battle with Emerson Fittipaldi, Paul Tracy and Ayrton Senna at Penske against Nigel Mansell and Mario Andretti at Newman/Haas.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 23 Dec 2013, 21:46

Another question: What if Hakkinen decided to return to F1 in 2004-5?

Post by **mario** » 23 Dec 2013, 22:34

good_Ralf wrote:Another question: What if Hakkinen decided to return to F1 in 2004-5?

I think that, to be honest, he would have struggled if he tried to return - probably not disastrously slow, but not especially quick either.

It was suggested that he might have tried to return via Williams, but 2004-2005 was the era in which Williams began to slide backwards given that their relationship with BMW was breaking down and their aero team was struggling to match Ferrari. I'm not sure that Hakkinen would have received the necessary support from a team that was fractured due to off track political wrangling and bitter recriminations by both sides, which would have probably hurt his efforts to get back up to speed that quickly.
Added to that, Hakkinen hadn't really raced in anger since 2001 so both his physical fitness and technical expertise would have deteriorated - it would have taken time to get back to full fitness, especially given his age at the time.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 24 Dec 2013, 07:04

What if Nigel Mansell moved to NASCAR rather than Indycar?

andrew2209 · Post by **andrew2209** » 24 Dec 2013, 11:24

Dark77 wrote:What if Nigel Mansell moved to NASCAR rather than Indycar?

Probably would've been quite competitive, but don't think he'd won any championships. Also may have been an interesting figure in the media.

What if Minardi and Jordan followed the Michelin teams into the pits at the 2005 USGP, leaving 2 Ferraris on the grid?