End of the road for Lotus?

[wsrgo]

Ilta Sanomat reporting Lotus might not make the 2014 grid

[pi314159]

I don't understand any finnish, but if Google translate is semi-correct, than Ilta Sanomat reports the same things I've read on motorsport-total.com in the last weeks. Lotus still seems to owe money to their employees and their suppliers. And they also don't have an engine contract for 2014.

Motorsport-total often exaggerates the financial problems of teams, but the fact that Lotus don't have an engine contract with just four weeks until pre-season testing starts is worrying.

[girry]

IS is the most unreliable finnish media and Aittoniemi is its most unreliable "journalist". He probably just is short of the required quota of articles this month and decided to make a piece of non-news in hope of clicks.

Yeah, Lotus has problems with finances and engine and all, we knew it already. Nothing new here, move on folks.

[AdrianSutil]

I don't buy this one iota. As others are saying, it's the same bullshit rumours about finances.

[good_Ralf]

I know this story looks dodgy but as Lotus are in financial trouble, the Quantum deal isn't working well, the team obviously signing Maldonado for financial reasons over the Hulk and co., they haven't announced an engine deal yet as pi314159 said and they had an awful final race in Brazil, I would be surprised if they went bust but I wouldn't be surprised if they had a 2014 of disastrous proportions, similar to Enstone's 2009 with godawful R29, the sacking of Piquet Jr., the Crashgate saga being revealed, their sponsors mostly departing and so on. Maybe not, in fact Lotus may dominate next year like Red Bull did in 2013, but their present situation is worrying all round.

[Ataxia]

It's just hacks piecing together what little evidence they have in the hope that they can become the next Sherlock Holmes.

If it's true, I'll eat my hat (or do some kind of avatar thing, which might be better for my digestive system), but I'm sure we'll see Lotus line-up at Melbourne.

[mario]

IS is the most unreliable finnish media and Aittoniemi is its most unreliable "journalist". He probably just is short of the required quota of articles this month and decided to make a piece of non-news in hope of clicks.

Yeah, Lotus has problems with finances and engine and all, we knew it already. Nothing new here, move on folks.

It's certainly not new that Lotus are in financial trouble - even Boullier is not pretending that they are not facing cashflow issues - so he's perhaps gambling that his speculative comments are indeed correct.

As good_Ralf says, in the short term Lotus will probably manage to find a way to limp into 2014 but, with considerable disruption to their finances in the build up to the next season and the loss of several noted key personnel, it sounds as if Lotus will definitely be facing a bit of an uphill struggle next year. Lotus have kind of punched above their weight for a couple of years now, but that has mainly come about through spending money they haven't really had - their issues might explain why Mallya has recently sounded more confident about breaking into the top five teams in 2014.

[Salamander]

It's just hacks piecing together what little evidence they have in the hope that they can become the next Sherlock Holmes.

If it's true, I'll eat my hat (or do some kind of avatar thing, which might be better for my digestive system), but I'm sure we'll see Lotus line-up at Melbourne.

Yeah. Even if things were that bad, Lotus not turning up to the grid would be an extremely bad sign for the sport as a whole. Even Bernie has to see that.

[wsrgo]

IS is the most unreliable finnish media

Dunno, weren't they among the first to report that Raikkonen would be going to Ferrari, whereas the much-touted Turun Satomat said that Raikkonen would stay at Lotus?

[AxelP800]

If this real, then both Grosjean and Maldonado to.......Caterham?

[girry]

IS is the most unreliable finnish media

Dunno, weren't they among the first to report that Raikkonen would be going to Ferrari, whereas the much-touted Turun Satomat said that Raikkonen would stay at Lotus?

no, that was another site iirc

[Nuppiz]

IS is the most unreliable finnish media

Dunno, weren't they among the first to report that Raikkonen would be going to Ferrari, whereas the much-touted Turun Satomat said that Raikkonen would stay at Lotus?

no, that was another site iirc

Nope, it was IS: viewtopic.php?p=256832#p256832

I remember it because I supplied a not-so-perfect translation to the article.

[Aerospeed]

One thing that concerns me is that Lotus haven't got an engine deal yet - in this late stage of the development process, how is Lotus going to design (and develop) the car properly without an engine? Makes me very concerned in terms of their pace for next year...

[Backmarker]

One thing that concerns me is that Lotus haven't got an engine deal yet - in this late stage of the development process, how is Lotus going to design (and develop) the car properly without an engine? Makes me very concerned in terms of their pace for next year...

It's got to be very difficult. I think the Lotus chassis will have been developed with the belief that it will have the Renault engine in - but Renault are supplying three teams (Red Bull, Toro Rosso and Caterham) and have said that they would prefer to supply only three teams, so possibly they are asking for a lot more from a fourth team, which Lotus might not be able to pay. What then are there alternatives? Honda isn't possible until 2015, Mercedes will be supplying four teams, Ferrari are supplying three and supposedly charge a lot for engines. Of those I would say that Mercedes are the most likely for 2014, with a change to Honda power in 2015, but again the cost for Mercedes engines in 2014 could be high. They've missed their opportunity to get any of the other potential engine suppliers, as it's probably too late for them to begin engine supply for 2014 - AER built a 2014-rule F1 engine in 2012; Cosworth developed their 2014 engine until early this year because they couldn't get any partners; Zytek had exploratory studies, but again lacked a partner; Craig Cod and Gilles Simon's PURE project was suspended in 2012 thanks to funding issues. If Lotus don't get Renault engines it could well adversely affect the performance of their 2014 car, unless they strike it lucky like Brawn did when they shoe-horned Mercedes engines into a car that had been designed for Hondas.

[DemocalypseNow]

Cashflow problems have been rife in this team since Genii purchased it from Renault in the first place. This is nothing new, perhaps it's just exuberance by the publisher to get some more clicks (hell, when I found out about their cashflow problems and unpaid creditors to start with, I jumped the gun like that too), and it's not really the end for them, it's just that they're struggling as usual.

I really hope this doesn't happen, only because I don't want to see Grosjean's career derailed when he was finally coming to the fore as a top driver. If you put him in the other Red Bull right now, I imagine Vettel would have some serious trouble dominating the way he did against Webber...

[watka]

Hey, why don't Lotus just build their own engine, perhaps a W12 config?

In all seriousness, it seems worrying that they don't seem to have an engine. I don't remember hearing much about this towards the end of last season, perhaps a renewal of the Renault contract was seen as a formality and only now its not materialising.

[wsrgo]

One thing that concerns me is that Lotus haven't got an engine deal yet - in this late stage of the development process, how is Lotus going to design (and develop) the car properly without an engine? Makes me very concerned in terms of their pace for next year...

It's got to be very difficult. I think the Lotus chassis will have been developed with the belief that it will have the Renault engine in - but Renault are supplying three teams (Red Bull, Toro Rosso and Caterham) and have said that they would prefer to supply only three teams, so possibly they are asking for a lot more from a fourth team, which Lotus might not be able to pay. What then are there alternatives? Honda isn't possible until 2015, Mercedes will be supplying four teams, Ferrari are supplying three and supposedly charge a lot for engines. Of those I would say that Mercedes are the most likely for 2014, with a change to Honda power in 2015, but again the cost for Mercedes engines in 2014 could be high. They've missed their opportunity to get any of the other potential engine suppliers, as it's probably too late for them to begin engine supply for 2014 - AER built a 2014-rule F1 engine in 2012; Cosworth developed their 2014 engine until early this year because they couldn't get any partners; Zytek had exploratory studies, but again lacked a partner; Craig Cod and Gilles Simon's PURE project was suspended in 2012 thanks to funding issues. If Lotus don't get Renault engines it could well adversely affect the performance of their 2014 car, unless they strike it lucky like Brawn did when they shoe-horned Mercedes engines into a car that had been designed for Hondas.

As far as I am aware, Renault have the most expensive V6 units, followed by Mercedes and Ferrari, which are the cheapest. It's one of the reasone why Williams shifted to a Mercedes powerplant for 2014, from Renault.

Here's a link telling us of the prices of the V6 units next year: http://www.crash.net/f1/news/191243/1/engine-cost-fears-continue-to-haunt-f1-ahead-of-2014.html

[Faustus]

Hey, why don't Lotus just build their own engine, perhaps a W12 config?

In all seriousness, it seems worrying that they don't seem to have an engine. I don't remember hearing much about this towards the end of last season, perhaps a renewal of the Renault contract was seen as a formality and only now its not materialising.

Lotus has developed the 2014 car around the Renault engine and they have some life-sized mock-ups in the factory to verify the fit.
Lotus owes a shitload of money to suppliers, including Renault. That in itself is nothing new, because Caterham owes loads of money as well and teams have always delayed paying suppliers as long as possible. Once Renault is paid some money, the deal for 2014 will be confirmed.
Last year when the Quantum deal was being discussed, I heard from a friend at Lotus that not only was the Quantum money a lot less than was being mentioned in the media but if and when it did come through, all of it was going to pay suppliers and sub-contractors and staff wages.

[mario]

Hey, why don't Lotus just build their own engine, perhaps a W12 config?

In all seriousness, it seems worrying that they don't seem to have an engine. I don't remember hearing much about this towards the end of last season, perhaps a renewal of the Renault contract was seen as a formality and only now its not materialising.

Lotus has developed the 2014 car around the Renault engine and they have some life-sized mock-ups in the factory to verify the fit.
Lotus owes a shitload of money to suppliers, including Renault. That in itself is nothing new, because Caterham owes loads of money as well and teams have always delayed paying suppliers as long as possible. Once Renault is paid some money, the deal for 2014 will be confirmed.
Last year when the Quantum deal was being discussed, I heard from a friend at Lotus that not only was the Quantum money a lot less than was being mentioned in the media but if and when it did come through, all of it was going to pay suppliers and sub-contractors and staff wages.

So I guess we can see where most of Maldonado's sponsorship from PDVSA is going to go then...

That said, you're right that quite a few teams in F1 are well known for maxing out the legally permissible payment periods when buying goods on credit - I might be mistaken, but I believe that Red Bull is one of the few teams which is prompt to pay its bills. I suppose that the most interesting question would be what impact their problems might have had on development of their 2014 car.

As an aside, this is perhaps a very cheeky question to ask but, given your contacts with Lotus, do you know if there is any truth to a rumour that Renault might have a few issues with meeting its production deadlines for the first test due to problems with obtaining the turbocharger unit from their suppliers (Honeywell, I understand)? I would assume that the rumour is just hot air to fill some column inches at this time of year though.

[EDIT] On another note, Craig Scarborough has announced via Twitter that Lotus's Senior Performance Engineer, Rod Nelson, has now left the team and will be returning to Williams.

[Faustus]

That said, you're right that quite a few teams in F1 are well known for maxing out the legally permissible payment periods when buying goods on credit - I might be mistaken, but I believe that Red Bull is one of the few teams which is prompt to pay its bills. I suppose that the most interesting question would be what impact their problems might have had on development of their 2014 car.

I heard that Marussia also owes very little money to suppliers and sub-contractors now, but only because the Russians from Marussia bailed out the team to the tune of something like £60 million. So at one point in, I believe, October, Marussia owed nothing at all.

As an aside, this is perhaps a very cheeky question to ask but, given your contacts with Lotus, do you know if there is any truth to a rumour that Renault might have a few issues with meeting its production deadlines for the first test due to problems with obtaining the turbocharger unit from their suppliers (Honeywell, I understand)? I would assume that the rumour is just hot air to fill some column inches at this time of year though.

I heard something like that a couple of months ago. Something to do with Renault destroying an unexpected amount of turbos during the dyno tests, certainly way ahead of the number that would have been expected.

[dr-baker]

As an aside, this is perhaps a very cheeky question to ask but, given your contacts with Lotus, do you know if there is any truth to a rumour that Renault might have a few issues with meeting its production deadlines for the first test due to problems with obtaining the turbocharger unit from their suppliers (Honeywell, I understand)? I would assume that the rumour is just hot air to fill some column inches at this time of year though.

Rumours about turbos being hot air? That's funny!

[Backmarker]

I heard that Marussia also owes very little money to suppliers and sub-contractors now, but only because the Russians from Marussia bailed out the team to the tune of something like £60 million. So at one point in, I believe, October, Marussia owed nothing at all.

I've heard that Marussia are actually in decent financial shape too - unlike other F1 teams, most of which have debts, Marussia is debt-free. The cynic in me says that's just to make it more attractive to buyers though.

[Warren Hughes]

I really hope this doesn't happen, only because I don't want to see Grosjean's career derailed when he was finally coming to the fore as a top driver. If you put him in the other Red Bull right now, I imagine Vettel would have some serious trouble dominating the way he did against Webber...

I agree with this, Grosjean was the second best driver for me last year, ahead of Hulkenberg.

Also, as I haven't been paying attention recently - who the hell are you?

[Londoner]

I really hope this doesn't happen, only because I don't want to see Grosjean's career derailed when he was finally coming to the fore as a top driver. If you put him in the other Red Bull right now, I imagine Vettel would have some serious trouble dominating the way he did against Webber...

I agree with this, Grosjean was the second best driver for me last year, ahead of Hulkenberg.

Also, as I haven't been paying attention recently - who the hell are you?

A certain Scotsman who wants to be Italian.

[mario]

That said, you're right that quite a few teams in F1 are well known for maxing out the legally permissible payment periods when buying goods on credit - I might be mistaken, but I believe that Red Bull is one of the few teams which is prompt to pay its bills. I suppose that the most interesting question would be what impact their problems might have had on development of their 2014 car.

I heard that Marussia also owes very little money to suppliers and sub-contractors now, but only because the Russians from Marussia bailed out the team to the tune of something like £60 million. So at one point in, I believe, October, Marussia owed nothing at all.

From what I can recall, that would sound about right given that their accounts for the year ending in April 2013 recorded a loss of about £55 million - an injection of £60 million in capital would certainly help clear those debts.

As an aside, this is perhaps a very cheeky question to ask but, given your contacts with Lotus, do you know if there is any truth to a rumour that Renault might have a few issues with meeting its production deadlines for the first test due to problems with obtaining the turbocharger unit from their suppliers (Honeywell, I understand)? I would assume that the rumour is just hot air to fill some column inches at this time of year though.

I heard something like that a couple of months ago. Something to do with Renault destroying an unexpected amount of turbos during the dyno tests, certainly way ahead of the number that would have been expected.

So I wasn't alone in reading about those rumours then, though whether they will come to anything more than just idle gossip is another thing. If the rumours about reliability have even just a grain of truth in them (there had been talk that production issues might even force some Renault engined teams to miss the first test in Jerez, or at least cut it short), then it could be awkward for Renault given the indication that their powertrain is also the most expensive in the field...

As an aside, this is perhaps a very cheeky question to ask but, given your contacts with Lotus, do you know if there is any truth to a rumour that Renault might have a few issues with meeting its production deadlines for the first test due to problems with obtaining the turbocharger unit from their suppliers (Honeywell, I understand)? I would assume that the rumour is just hot air to fill some column inches at this time of year though.

Rumours about turbos being hot air? That's funny!

I'll be honest, the pun was entirely unintentional there...

[dr-baker]

As an aside, this is perhaps a very cheeky question to ask but, given your contacts with Lotus, do you know if there is any truth to a rumour that Renault might have a few issues with meeting its production deadlines for the first test due to problems with obtaining the turbocharger unit from their suppliers (Honeywell, I understand)? I would assume that the rumour is just hot air to fill some column inches at this time of year though.

Rumours about turbos being hot air? That's funny!

I'll be honest, the pun was entirely unintentional there...

You don't normally go for puns, and this one was subtle, so I guessed it was unintentional. Makes it funnier if you ask me...

[Backmarker]

I heard something like that a couple of months ago. Something to do with Renault destroying an unexpected amount of turbos during the dyno tests, certainly way ahead of the number that would have been expected.

I eagerly await Renault turbos exploding in races in 2014. Just like the good old days!

[pi314159]

Two news concerning Lotus:

First of all, they're going to miss the first test at the end of January. The plan is to debut the car at the Bahrain test.

Also, Lotus CEO Patrick Louis has stepped down.

Source: Autosport

[Faustus]

Two news concerning Lotus:

First of all, they're going to miss the first test at the end of January. The plan is to debut the car at the Bahrain test.

Source: Autosport

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112041

[Londoner]

Two news concerning Lotus:

First of all, they're going to miss the first test at the end of January. The plan is to debut the car at the Bahrain test.

Source: Autosport

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112041

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if more teams decided to miss the first test. There's been such little news on the new-spec cars so far. Usually, most of the teams would have announced their launch dates by now.

At least, that's what I'm hoping is the case, and not Enstone being in more trouble than originally though...

[mario]

Two news concerning Lotus:

First of all, they're going to miss the first test at the end of January. The plan is to debut the car at the Bahrain test.

Source: Autosport

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112041

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if more teams decided to miss the first test. There's been such little news on the new-spec cars so far. Usually, most of the teams would have announced their launch dates by now.

At least, that's what I'm hoping is the case, and not Enstone being in more trouble than originally though...

I'd agree that it would not be surprising if some outfits skipped the Jerez test, including outfits that are ostensibly in good financial shape. After all, Red Bull have sometimes not attended the first test in the past due to them preferring to stay at base and work on the car for longer - if they didn't turn up, I doubt that anybody would call their stability into question.
Moreover, the conditions in Jerez probably won't be that reflective of the rest of the season (being abnormally cold and with a more abrasive surface than usual), so it might not necessarily be as bad to miss out on that test.

The other possibility is, given the rumours that Renault may be having more problems than anticipated with their engines, that the issues may lie with Renault rather than Lotus. There is a suggestion that Red Bull might have asked for the first test to be postponed by a week because they were having problems with Renault - a request that the Mercedes and Ferrari powered teams turned down given that it would cause problems for the following test in Bahrain - so perhaps it is their engine supplier that is having problems.

[Londoner]

And now we know the size of the financial black hole that Enstone are struggling with - £114 million to be exact.

As much as I want GRSJN and Pasta to be fighting at the front of the field this season, I have this feeling that Lotus will be mired in the midfield, with an underdeveloped car and a fragile engine.

As an aside, how much debt were Arrows and Prost saddled with when those teams went bankrupt at the start of the millennium? I don't think they were in much debt as Enstone are at the moment?

[tristan1117]

And now we know the size of the financial black hole that Enstone are struggling with - £114 million to be exact.

As much as I want GRSJN and Pasta to be fighting at the front of the field this season, I have this feeling that Lotus will be mired in the midfield, with an underdeveloped car and a fragile engine.

As an aside, how much debt were Arrows and Prost saddled with when those teams went bankrupt at the start of the millennium? I don't think they were in much debt as Enstone are at the moment?

This could make Hulkenberg's decision to not sign with Lotus seem quite intelligent in hindsight.

[RonDenisDeletraz]

And now we know the size of the financial black hole that Enstone are struggling with - £114 million to be exact.

As much as I want GRSJN and Pasta to be fighting at the front of the field this season, I have this feeling that Lotus will be mired in the midfield, with an underdeveloped car and a fragile engine.

As an aside, how much debt were Arrows and Prost saddled with when those teams went bankrupt at the start of the millennium? I don't think they were in much debt as Enstone are at the moment?

This could make Hulkenberg's decision to not sign with Lotus seem quite intelligent in hindsight.

It wasn't really his decision, when it became clear the Quantum deal was going nowhere Lotus instead opted for Maldonado's PSVDA monies.

[Ferrim]

It's well known that most of that debt (Lopez puts it over £80 million) is to Genii Capital, ie., debt "to themselves" as Genii is the owner of the team. £30-35 million on debt is not that much. What is really crucial to know the true health of the Lotus team is: are these £30-35 million debt short term or long term? Is the team generating more money than it expends? What is the financial situation of its owner, Genii Capital?

From what we know, Lotus are expending more than they earn, with Genii covering the gap every year. Genii cannot be in a great economical shape, as the team has had big cash-flow problems basically since they took over, but also these problems seem to be increasing all the time. If Genii could, wouldn't they increase their investment in the team? Instead they have lost their lead driver because they weren't paying him, and have had to resort to a convoluted scheme to fend off creditors and have them wait until the FOM money came in (it's the only reasonable explanation I can find for the whole Quantum charade). For some reason, Genii won't invest at the pace the team needs, and the most likely reason is that they don't have the money.

[Benetton]

It's well known that most of that debt (Lopez puts it over £80 million) is to Genii Capital, ie., debt "to themselves" as Genii is the owner of the team. £30-35 million on debt is not that much. What is really crucial to know the true health of the Lotus team is: are these £30-35 million debt short term or long term? Is the team generating more money than it expends? What is the financial situation of its owner, Genii Capital?

And from what I understood the team will be able to, largely thanks to Maldonado's funding, to make a plus/minus or even decrease the debt to outside parties (the 30-35 million amount) a little this year.

[Ferrim]

Episode V: Quantum Strikes Back!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112169

EDIT:

Episode VI: The Return of Ijaz!

http://grandprix247.com/2014/01/20/mans ... formula-1/

EDIT again, because this is too funny not to post it:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Quantum-Lot ... 1400080797

[Jocke1]

Lotus has now got the best Team Principal of all time.


J-Lo or G-Lo?

Gerard Lopez - Gerry from the Block
http://youtu.be/dly6p4Fu5TE?t=50s

Don't be fooled by the role that I got
I'm still, I'm still Gerry from the block
Used to have a little, now I have a lot
No matter where I go, I know where I came from
Don't be fooled by the role that I got
I'm still, I'm still Gerry from the block
Used to have a Kimi, now I have a Pastor
No matter where I go, I know where I came from (Luxembourg!)

From Miami University to Team Principal
To replacing Eric to headline Youtube clips
I stay grounded as the amounts roll in
I'm real, I thought I told you
I'm real, even on BBC
That's just me
Nothin phony, don't hate on me
What you get is what you see

Don't be fooled by the role that I got
I'm still, I'm still Gerry from the block
Used to have a Kimi, now I have a Pastor
No matter where I go, I know where I came from
Don't be fooled by the role that I got
I'm still, I'm still Gerry from the block
Used to have a little, now I have a lot
No matter where I go, I know where I came from (Luxembourg!)

I'm down to earth like this
Rockin this business
I've grown up so much
I'm in control and loving it
Rumors got me laughing, kid
Love my life and my public
Put Lotus first
And can't forget to stay real
To me it's like breathing

Don't be fooled by the role that I got
I'm still, I'm still Gerry from the block
Used to have a little, now I have a lot
No matter where I go, I know where I came from

[lordm]

Hi All

So Lotus is short of cash and loosing staff to other teams.

Looks like a job for Colin Kolles.

[watka]

Hi All

So Lotus is short of cash and loosing staff to other teams.

Looks like a job for Colin Kolles.

Feasible! If he wants to enter a team in 2015, why not pool the resources of Lotus and his DTM operations?