THE KATACESARIS AWARDS (2010 edition too)

LucaPacchiarini · Post by **LucaPacchiarini** » 28 Jan 2010, 15:34

I'm at home due do a flu attack, nothing else to do... :mrgreen:

actually, I'm having a great time being ill for a while :lol:

I know we already have the Reject Of The Year, but....

I've decided to create the KATACESARIS AWARDS
The prize given to the driver who collects more retirements due to crashes and spins during a season.
The name of the prize derives from two of the most legendary crashers in the history of F1.... Ukyo Katayama and Andrea De Cesaris.

In case of multiple winners (more than 1 driver with the same number of crashes/spins) I've decided to give the prize to the driver who scored less points in the season...

So far, we have counted: (thanks everyone)

1950 too many to mention
1972 REGAZZONI 3
1980 DALY 4
1981 DE CESARIS 6
1982 ARNOUX 6
1983 BALDI 3
1984 MANSELL 5
1985 ALLIOT 5
1986 NANNINI 4
1987 ALLIOT 5
1988 MANSELL 4
1989 PEREZ SALA 6
1990 NAKAJIMA 4
1991 NAKAJIMA 6
1992 GROUILLARD 5
1993 SUZUKI 8
1994 MARTINI 7
1995 KATAYAMA 8
1996 VERSTAPPEN 7
1997 KATAYAMA 5
1998 TUERO 5
1999 DINIZ 8
2000 DE LA ROSA 5
2001 HEIDFELD 5
2002 MCNISH 4
2003 FIRMAN 3
2004 PANTANO 4
2005 FRIESACHER 3
2006 ROSBERG 5
2007 SUTIL 5
2008 PIQUET 6
2009 KOVALAINEN 4

Katayama, Nakajima, Alliot and Mansell (!!!) are the only one with two titles :mrgreen:

We'll update it

elho · Post by **elho** » 28 Jan 2010, 15:40

we don't even have to count the last two years
2008 - Nelson Piquet jr
2009 - Romain Grosjean
:mrgreen:

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 28 Jan 2010, 15:51

I assume de Crasheris wins it for most of the mid-80s?

I have a lecture in 9 minutes so I can't check.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 28 Jan 2010, 16:29

Diniz is Brazilian by the way

Tealy · Post by **Tealy** » 28 Jan 2010, 16:50

The 2000 Formula 1 season Katayama award results.

Nobody seemed to want to win this award. The leader changed race on race and we ended up with a 4 way tie!

3 Crashes or Spins:
Heidfeld
Verstappen

4 Crashes or Spins:
Irvine
Diniz
Wurz

5 Crashes or Spins:
De La Rosa
Zonta
R. Schumacher
Trulli

danardif1 · Post by **danardif1** » 28 Jan 2010, 17:33

Tealy wrote:The 2000 Formula 1 season Katayama award results.

Nobody seemed to want to win this award. The leader changed race on race and we ended up with a 4 way tie!

3 Crashes or Spins:
Heidfeld
Verstappen

4 Crashes or Spins:
Irvine
Diniz
Wurz

5 Crashes or Spins:
De La Rosa
Zonta
R. Schumacher
Trulli

That's amazing seeing that Ralf was in there, but his 20-yr old teammate Button, having stepped into a Williams from an F3 car, didn't put it in the wall as much as any of these guys...

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 28 Jan 2010, 17:41

I am personally objecting the naming of this Award.

simply because Katayama is NOTHING compared to the allmighty De Crasheris.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 28 Jan 2010, 17:41

PATRICK Grouillard?

elho · Post by **elho** » 28 Jan 2010, 17:59

According to wikipedia data:

2009 - Kovalainen - 4 crashes or spins
2008 - Piquet - 6 crashes or spins

according to http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/races.html

2007 - Sutil - 5 crashes or spins

Popi_Larrauri · Post by **Popi_Larrauri** » 28 Jan 2010, 18:15

DonTirri wrote:I am personally objecting the naming of this Award.

simply because Katayama is NOTHING compared to the allmighty De Crasheris.

i was amazed by the lack of De Césaris in this thread.

elho · Post by **elho** » 28 Jan 2010, 18:28

2006 - the williams pair of Rosberg and Webber - 5 crashes or spins each

elho · Post by **elho** » 28 Jan 2010, 18:35

2005 - Fisichela e Friesacher - 3 spins or crashes each

elho · Post by **elho** » 28 Jan 2010, 18:45

2004 - with 4 crashes or spins each....
Fernando Alonso
Giorgio Pantano
and....

HWNSNBM

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 28 Jan 2010, 18:53

Popi_Larrauri wrote:
DonTirri wrote:I am personally objecting the naming of this Award.

simply because Katayama is NOTHING compared to the allmighty De Crasheris.

i was amazed by the lack of De Césaris in this thread.

It's time to celebrate the great man with the 1980s.

1981:
Pre-season favourite Andrea de Cesaris gets off to a good start, writing off his McLaren on the opening lap of the start of the US West Grand Prix hitting both Prost and Rebaque. Amazingly, he fails to retire due to a crash again until the sixth round at Monaco, but makes up for this with 4 crashes/spin induced DNFs in 5 races putting him in the lead at the German Grand Prix. A further crash at the penultimate round in Canada sees him fend off late challenges from Alboreto, Arnoux, and suprisingly, Andretti & Prost all on 4 crashes each, to bring home a 2 crash lead going into the last round.

Winner:
Andrea De Cesaris, Italy, McLaren. 6 crashes.
Runners up:
Mario Andretti, United States, Alfa Romeo, 4 crashes.
Michele Alboreto, Italy, Tyrell, 4 crashes.
Rene Arnoux, France, Renault, 4 crashes.
Alain Prost, France, Renault, 4 crashes.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 28 Jan 2010, 19:15

The De Cesaris Award of 1989 went to Luis Perez-Sala with 6 retirements caused by a driving error.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 28 Jan 2010, 19:22

1982:
Defending champion Andrea de Cesaris finds his way to Alfa Romeo, which proved highly crashable in the hands of Andretti and Giacomelli the previous season, but its Jarier, Piquet and Warick who get started early, all crashing or spinning out of South African GP. It takes until a crash-happy round three at Long Beach, ironically his only pole position, for de Cesaris to get off the mark. Derek Daly makes the early running, however, racking up three crashes in the first five rounds, and makes a damned good attempt at making it 4 in 6 at Monaco, eventually grinding to a halt with no fuel and no rear wing, but it doesn't count since the fuel is what killed him. Rene Arnoux takes full advantage pushes into the lead with a hat trick of crashes and spins at the Canadian, Dutch and British GPs, taking him to 6. Daly, however, crashes his way back into contention by the end of the penultimate race in Italy, trailing Arnoux by just a single accident, and level on crashes with Eliseo Salazar, setting us up for a gripping finale to the crash season.

Salazar takes himself out of contention by DNQing, and then Arnoux's Renault engine expires, leaving Daly with the chance to equalise, but unfortunately, he keeps it between the walls at Ceaser's Palace and even scores a point, giving the Katayama/de Cesaris award to the Frenchman.

Not all is lost for Irish fans, however, as Tommy Byrne completes the season, and his F1 career, with a 100% crash record, with 2 crashes from 2 starts.

Winner:
Rene Arnoux, France, Renault, 6 crashes

Runners-up:
Derek Daly, Ireland, Theodore & Williams, 5 crashes
Eliseo Salazar, Chile, ATS, 5 crashes.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 28 Jan 2010, 20:35

Some vintage results:
1950-Multiple tie, but Alfredo Piàn wins because he didn't start the Monaco GP due to an accident-Maserati.
1951-Tie between Johnny Claes and Yves Giraud-Cabantous; Cabantous wins because he was the earliest to crash twice-Talbot-Lago-Talbot.
1952-Tie again; wins Louis Rosier as the earliest to crash-Ferrari.
1953-Tie; Nino Farina wins as the earliest-Ferrari.
1954-Tie; victory for Robert Manzon for being the first one not to start a race due to a crash (Onofre Marimon was killed and did not start a race first than Manzon did, but I dispense fatalities)-Ferrari.
1955-Tie; Alberto Ascari wins as the earliest to score two retirements-Lancia.
1956-Tie; wins the great Colin Chapman as the first one not to start a race due to an accident-Vanwall.
1957-Finally a clear winner, Horace Gould-Maserati.
1958-Jo Bonnier-Maserati.
1959-Tie; Bruce Halford wins as the earliest-Lotus Climax.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 28 Jan 2010, 22:26

1983:
It's a tough season to call. De Cesaris remains with Alfa Romeo, last year's champion Arnoux is with Ferrari where he might be expected to not crash too often, and Daly flees to America. Could it be Salazar's year? A contentious double incident involving Tambay, Rosberg & Jarier on lap 26 of the 2nd race at Long Beach sees points awarded to Jarier and Rosberg, Jarier punting off Rosberg a corner after Rosberg punted off Tambay. Rosberg is penalised because Jarier's proximity to the Finn was caused by Rosberg having to get around Tambay's disabled Ferrari for which he was himself responsible. De Cesaris' team-mate Mauro Baldi takes an early lead with three spins in the first three races, although Derek Warick is on level terms by Monaco. By the halfway point at Canada, it's clear that 83's going to be a close one, with Warick & Baldi tied on 3, and Mansell, Jarier, Winkelhock and Lauda just one behind. Pre-season favourites de Cesaris and Arnoux are yet to register. With just 3 races to go, a spin at the Dutch Grand Prix puts Mansell on par with the leaders. Amazingly, no one seems to want the title, and it remains a three way tie all the way to the end.

Winners:
Mauro Baldi, Italy, Alfa Romeo. 3 crashes
Nigel Mansell, Britain, Lotus, 3 crashes
Derek Warwick, Britain, Toleman, 3 crashes

Runners up:
Michele Alboreto, Italy, Tyrell. 2 crashes.
Bruno Giacomelli, Italy, Toleman, 2 crashes.
Jean-Pierre Jarier, France, Ligier. 2 crashes.
Niki Lauda, Austria, McLaren. 2 crashes.
Danny Sullivan, United States, Tyrell. 2 crashes.
Marc Surer, Switzerland, Arrows. 2 crashes.
John Watson, Britain, McLaren. 2 crashes.
Manfred Winkelhock, Germany, ATS. 2 crashes.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 28 Jan 2010, 22:49

Enforcer wrote:1982:

Not all is lost for Irish fans, however, as Tommy Byrne completes the season, and his F1 career, with a 100% crash record, with 2 crashes from 2 starts.

Runners-up:
Derek Daly, Ireland, Theodore & Williams, 5 crashes
.

Hurray! We're good for something in F1 after all!

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 28 Jan 2010, 23:05

shinji wrote:
Enforcer wrote:1982:

Not all is lost for Irish fans, however, as Tommy Byrne completes the season, and his F1 career, with a 100% crash record, with 2 crashes from 2 starts.

Runners-up:
Derek Daly, Ireland, Theodore & Williams, 5 crashes
.

Hurray! We're good for something in F1 after all!

Daly drove the last few laps of that Monaco race with a damaged car, no wings, slick tyres and a damp track. That probably took some serious balls.

Only time there were ever 2 Irish drivers on the grid. Good quiz question that. Come to think of it, I reckon that Tommy and Derek are the last 2 F1 drivers born in the Republic of Ireland. Firman was born in England and otherwise since then there's only been Irvine and Donnelly, both Northern Irish and racing on British licences (in spite of where Irvine's sense of national identity lies).

Last one for tonight:
1984:
It's a slow start to '84, but defending joint Champion Nigel Mansell is the be quickest of the blocks, with 2 spins in the first 4 races, before adding a third at Monaco, leading a multitude of drivers, including Warick and de Cesaris, by one coming to the crash-tacular Dallas Grand Prix on a breaking surface at Fair Park. No less than 11 drivers are classified as having "Spun Off" in this one. The end result for the Katayama award is that 6 drivers (Mansell, de Cesaris, Tambay, Hesnault, Surer, Warwick) were tied on 3 crashes/spins each coming out of this one. Warick edged into the lead at the Dutch Grand Prix with 3 races to go, before being pegged back in by Hesnault and Mansell at the next race. Surer then put himself into contention with one race to go being involved in four car, first lap accident at the European GP (I have no report on who's fault this is, so I'm giving them all points). But Mansell had the last laugh, spinning at the last race to take the Katayama award.

Winner:
Nigel Mansell, Britain, Lotus, 5 crashes

Runners up:
Francois Hesnault, France, Ligier, 4 crashes
Marc Surer, Switzerland, Arrows, 4 crashes
Derek Warwick, Britain, Renault, 4 crashes

LucaPacchiarini · Post by **LucaPacchiarini** » 28 Jan 2010, 23:06

I've updated the list! thanks to everyone involved

To sort out the problem of ties with multiple winners... in that case, I've decided to give the prize to the driver who scores less points in the season.
I invite Phoenix to reconsider his 50's results with this rule...

I think it would make things clearer

So, the results we have are:

1950-1980 ?
1981 DE CESARIS 6
1982 ARNOUX 6
1983 BALDI 3
1984 MANSELL 5
1985 ?
1986 ?
1987 ?
1988 ?
1989 PEREZ SALA 6
1990 NAKAJIMA 4
1991 NAKAJIMA 6
1992 GROUILLARD 5
1993 SUZUKI 8
1994 MARTINI 7
1995 KATAYAMA 8
1996 VERSTAPPEN 7
1997 KATAYAMA 5
1998 TUERO 5
1999 DINIZ 8
2000 DE LA ROSA 5
2001 ?
2002 ?
2003 ?
2004 PANTANO 4
2005 FRIESACHER 3
2006 ROSBERG 5
2007 SUTIL 5
2008 PIQUET 6
2009 KOVALAINEN 4

LucaPacchiarini · Post by **LucaPacchiarini** » 28 Jan 2010, 23:07

Ah, and I'm going to rename this award... it's the KATACESARIS AWARD

Enforcer, great job :shock:

really good to read and accurate

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 28 Jan 2010, 23:11

LucaPacchiarini wrote:I've updated the list! thanks to everyone involved

To sort out the problem of ties with multiple winners... in that case, I've decided to give the prize to the driver who scores less points in the season.
I invite Phoenix to reconsider his 50's results with this rule... I think it would make things clearer

In 83's case, it should definitely be Baldi as overall winner anyway, because he managed to have his three crashes in the first three races. Plus he was de Cesaris' team-mate and out-crashed him.

LucaPacchiarini · Post by **LucaPacchiarini** » 28 Jan 2010, 23:15

Enforcer wrote:
LucaPacchiarini wrote:I've updated the list! thanks to everyone involved

To sort out the problem of ties with multiple winners... in that case, I've decided to give the prize to the driver who scores less points in the season.
I invite Phoenix to reconsider his 50's results with this rule... I think it would make things clearer

In 83's case, it should definitely be Baldi as overall winner anyway, because he managed to have his three crashes in the first three races. Plus he was de Cesaris' team-mate and out-crashed him.

Yes... he had 3 crashes like the others but scored less points...
however, you did a wonderful job with your results

ah, classic italian rejects :mrgreen:

I miss them

LucaPacchiarini · Post by **LucaPacchiarini** » 28 Jan 2010, 23:22

I updated the list with results for the 85, 86, 87 and 88 seasons...
can someone check if the winners are correct?

85 and 87 seem to be two CLASSIC Alliot seasons :mrgreen:

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 28 Jan 2010, 23:38

Just ran through '85 and got 5 self-induced retirements each for Alliot and Martini.

But Alliot didn't do the full season, meaning he had as many crashes in less races, and his best position was 9th, vs. 8th for Martini, so he's probably more deserving.

LucaPacchiarini · Post by **LucaPacchiarini** » 28 Jan 2010, 23:46

Enforcer wrote:Just ran through '85 and got 5 self-induced retirements each for Alliot and Martini.

But Alliot didn't do the full season, meaning he had as many crashes in less races, and his best position was 9th, vs. 8th for Martini, so he's probably more deserving.

good!

Where are you checking?
...because I was looking in a book of mine but I suspect it's not always accurate... :roll:

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 29 Jan 2010, 20:15

2002 Katacesaris Award

While the actual championships were over pretty much to begin with, the Katacesaris award promises action, especially with the kick-off in Australia, where a whooping 10 drivers collected points. The Malaysia Grand Prix was pretty eventless in this regard, before Allan McNish took an early lead in Brazil, which he was able to defend until the collision of Sato and Heidfeld at the Austrian Grand Prix which equalled the score. Immediately thereafter, Sato and McNish took it to the next level at Monaco with new challengers Button, Massa and Panis emerging. McNish took the sole lead at Canada, but lost it in France, where Sato got even again. But Panis used his Home GP to his "advantage" as well. None of the leaders scored for the next races, allowing Button to draw close. Noticeable as well the amazing debut of Anthony Davidson who took two points in a row, before being replaced with Yoong. The US Grand Prix delivered no valueable crashes at all, leaving the race in Japan to decide the winner. But a very controversial finish left a three-way tie for the title, seeing as McNish did indeed crash, but before the race, which is a DNS, not a retirement. With Sato finishing the race, a very early accident by Massa gave him, a barely noticed contender, the chance at joining the big boys on the first position.

- Top 5
1.: Takuma Sato - Jordan-Honda - 4
1.: Felipe Massa - Sauber-Petronas - 4
1.: Allan McNish - Toyota - 4
4.: Olivier Panis - BAR-Honda - 3
4.: Jenson Button - Renault - 3
+ 7 drivers with 2 points
+ 7 drivers with 1 point

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 29 Jan 2010, 20:47

Klon wrote:Olivier Panis - BAR-Honda

I always forget about that.

LucaPacchiarini · Post by **LucaPacchiarini** » 29 Jan 2010, 20:49

Klon wrote:2002 Katacesaris Award

While the actual championships were over pretty much to begin with, the Katacesaris award promises action, especially with the kick-off in Australia, where a whooping 10 drivers collected points. The Malaysia Grand Prix was pretty eventless in this regard, before Allan McNish took an early lead in Brazil, which he was able to defend until the collision of Sato and Heidfeld at the Austrian Grand Prix which equalled the score. Immediately thereafter, Sato and McNish took it to the next level at Monaco with new challengers Button, Massa and Panis emerging. McNish took the sole lead at Canada, but lost it in France, where Sato got even again. But Panis used his Home GP to his "advantage" as well. None of the leaders scored for the next races, allowing Button to draw close. Noticeable as well the amazing debut of Anthony Davidson who took two points in a row, before being replaced with Yoong. The US Grand Prix delivered no valueable crashes at all, leaving the race in Japan to decide the winner. But a very controversial finish left a three-way tie for the title, seeing as McNish did indeed crash, but before the race, which is a DNS, not a retirement. With Sato finishing the race, a very early accident by Massa gave him, a barely noticed contender, the chance at joining the big boys on the first position.

- Top 5
1.: Takuma Sato - Jordan-Honda - 4
1.: Felipe Massa - Sauber-Petronas - 4
1.: Allan McNish - Toyota - 4
4.: Olivier Panis - BAR-Honda - 3
4.: Jenson Button - Renault - 3
+ 7 drivers with 2 points
+ 7 drivers with 1 point

great! thank you very much! great season review :mrgreen:

So, McNish wins the 2002 Katacesaris Award because he scored 0 points, but also because he competed in less races (so the % of crash is higher)
(list updated)

now we only have to do 2001 and 2003 to fill the empty spaces in the list

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 30 Jan 2010, 05:23

2001 top 5:
1. Heidfeld: 5
Montoya: 4
=4. Burti: 3
De La Rosa: 3
Frentzen: 3
R Schumacher: 3

LucaPacchiarini · Post by **LucaPacchiarini** » 30 Jan 2010, 13:48

Wizzie wrote:2001 top 5:
1. Heidfeld: 5
Montoya: 4
=4. Burti: 3
De La Rosa: 3
Frentzen: 3
R Schumacher: 3

thanks

well at least Nick has won something in his career

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 30 Jan 2010, 19:10

LucaPacchiarini wrote:
Enforcer wrote:Just ran through '85 and got 5 self-induced retirements each for Alliot and Martini.

But Alliot didn't do the full season, meaning he had as many crashes in less races, and his best position was 9th, vs. 8th for Martini, so he's probably more deserving.

good!

Where are you checking?
...because I was looking in a book of mine but I suspect it's not always accurate...

Official Formula One website eg: http://www.formula1.com/results/season/1985/295/

As you can see however, it doesn't have a full race report so unless I can find a respectfully cited one elsewhere (like the 83 US West one on Wikipedia) I can't tell if cars crash out because of their own stupidity or because of someone else's when the site says "Accident" or "Collision", so I assume the retiring driver is culpable.

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 30 Jan 2010, 20:38

I counted that 2003 season should have four drivers with three

Barrichello (Aus, Ger, US)
Firman (Aus, Ger, US)
Webber (Bra, Ger, US)
Panis (Bra, Eur, US)

Firman scored least points so he takes it. Also having mind that he missed two races where he was replaced by HWNSNBM and also that I didn't count Brazil for him, where his suspension failed and that caused the incident with Panis. I didn't count Hungary incident for Rubens either.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 30 Jan 2010, 21:18

Bleu wrote:I counted that 2003 season should have four drivers with three

Barrichello (Aus, Ger, US)
Firman (Aus, Ger, US)
Webber (Bra, Ger, US)
Panis (Bra, Eur, US)

Firman scored least points so he takes it. Also having mind that he missed two races where he was replaced by HWNSNBM and also that I didn't count Brazil for him, where his suspension failed and that caused the incident with Panis. I didn't count Hungary incident for Rubens either.

YES!

Ireland wins.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 30 Jan 2010, 21:23

Enforcer wrote:
Bleu wrote:I counted that 2003 season should have four drivers with three

Barrichello (Aus, Ger, US)
Firman (Aus, Ger, US)
Webber (Bra, Ger, US)
Panis (Bra, Eur, US)

Firman scored least points so he takes it. Also having mind that he missed two races where he was replaced by HWNSNBM and also that I didn't count Brazil for him, where his suspension failed and that caused the incident with Panis. I didn't count Hungary incident for Rubens either.

YES!

Ireland wins.

Again. So Ireland just wins in general when it comes to crashing.

karsten · Post by **karsten** » 31 Jan 2010, 10:08

Bleu wrote:Firman (Aus, Ger, US)

firman? i completely forgot about him ?_? did he actually race?

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 31 Jan 2010, 13:06

karsten wrote:
Bleu wrote:Firman (Aus, Ger, US)

firman? i completely forgot about him ?_? did he actually race?

In 2003, for Jordan. He was replaced for three races due to an injury mid-season by the mighty HWNSNBM.

LucaPacchiarini · Post by **LucaPacchiarini** » 31 Jan 2010, 13:46

Ok, now let's go backwards in time...

THE 1980 KATACESARIS AWARD

The first races are a bit uncertain, with several drivers scoring accidents.. but then De Angelis makes an impressive record of three crashes in a row (Kyalami, Long Beach and Zolder) taking the lead.
The race at Long Beach, in particular, sees a rejctful accident as Elio rams a train of cars blocked by a spinning Giacomelli!

Through midseason the drivers chasing him are Jarier and Giacomelli, two well-known crashers: they both equalise De Angelis after the Montecarlo GP, with three crashes each.
When the season seems to be a battle between these drivers, the unexpected outsider Derek Daly (previously at zero) makes an incredible series of crashes: Four in five races between Montecarlo and Monza! :shock:

the Irishman takes the lead of the Katacesaris Award, together with De Angelis who crashed in the Netherlands.
The last part of the championship seems to be a clash between these two drivers, but noone of them manages to crash until the end of the season.
Giacomelli and Patrese take advantage of it: Jack O'Malley spins once and goes to 4, wile Riccardo crashes twice in the last two races, in a desperate attempt to win the award.

So, the final standing is:

DE ANGELIS 4
DALY 4
GIACOMELLI 4
PATRESE 4

but Derek DALY wins the 1980 Katacesaris Award because he did one race less than the others (missing the Canadian GP) so his % of crashes is higher.

...and another irish driver wins! :lol:

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 31 Jan 2010, 13:46

Now I think I know why no one took him up in 1983. :lol: