AndreaModa wrote:But why not Manor? Urgh that's the best-worst piece of news I've seen all day. Great to see the team on the entry list but my God what a poor choice of constructor name! Who the hell thought of that? MNR doesn't stand for anything - surely everyone will just call them Manor anyway. Daft decision.
I'm pretty sure they were originally called Manor GP after the F3 team that competed under that name for many years. Anyway, naming F1 teams after buildings is not unprecedented. Leyton House, Vanwall... it's a rich tradition.
CoopsII wrote:On occasion I have ventured into the PMM forum but beat a hasty retreat soon after as it resembles some sort of bad acid trip in there
I'm so surprised to read many people say that this time Marussia entered as Manor when since 2009 Virgin first and then Marussia entered in F1 in this way
Should this thread be renamed The Manor Thread considering they're no longer called Marussia on the entry list for 2015?
James Hunt, commentating on the 1991 German Grand Prix wrote:The Benettons looking very smart together on the track, mostly because they're both going so slowly.
Frogfoot9013 wrote:Should this thread be renamed The Manor Thread considering they're no longer called Marussia on the entry list for 2015?
Brawn were listed as an official entry for the 2010 season this time five years ago. I'd say wait until Marussia/Manor themselves confirm that they will be competing under the Manor name before changing the thread title. (Post number 300!)
Fetzie on Ferrari wrote:How does a driver hurtling around a race track while they're sous-viding in their overalls have a better understanding of the race than a team of strategy engineers in an air-conditioned room?l
What a pathetic way to begin my day by reading of these tragic events. Hopefully this is the punch to the face F1 needs to wake up and sort itself out.
Man, this reminds me of Jules. He's still in Japan, recovering from his injuries. I wonder what his reaction would be to find out that Marussia is no more. After his 9th place in Monaco I bet everyone thought that the whole team will take a turn for the better. Absolutely gutted for all the good people at Banbury. If Caterham will shut up shop as well, I'll give up on Formula One™ for 2015.
Either way, it is a rather undignified end to the team given that things had looked so bright for them earlier this season - and to add insult to injury, Sauber will now be given the share of the prize money which would have otherwise gone to Marussia.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning: "The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
Very sad to hear. Marussia were why we love Reject teams - real tryers and showed a lot of spirit in the face of adversity. Very like Simtek back in the day.
Maria De Villotta will forever be badass. Rest in Peace. Pulling for Schumi and Jules.
So the rumours that Marussia was only hanging around long enough for the first Russian GP were pretty much spot on. I now fully understand why they didn't fielded another car in Russia. What a shame. Hopefully Bianchi will still be supported and Max can find his way into more finishing positions.
Colin Kolles on F111, 2011 HRT challenger: The car doesn't look too bad; it looks like a modern F1 car.
I'm reminded of a copy of Autosport from late 2009 when Toyota pulled the plug on their F1 team. The headline on the cover went "WHY TOYOTA FAILED" with one of their cars beached unceremoniously in a gravel trap somewhere.
I feel much like that article now, only with the collective faces of the team principals in charge in 2009, Bernie, Mosely and Jean Todt, all on the front page and a big headline that reads "WHY YOU HAVE FAILED US". They are all responsible for the lies and deceit that resulted in three teams entering F1 in 2010 on the back of promised rules changes and budget cuts.
A large number of people were employed by these teams, many I suspect in their first roles in motorsport and F1. These good people have been lied to, let down and left in a terrible position. It's an absolute disgrace that Christian Horner, amongst the other team bosses, can stand there and effectively say "it's not our problem".
There are now literally hundreds of people without a job in a niche industry. Now companies go bust all the time, that's fair enough. But this is on the back of a complete inability from the sport's higher echelons to act on continued messages from all around that things were getting out of hand. That isn't the fault of Caterham, Marussia or HRT. They were promised rule changes, budget caps, and instead got sweet f*** all. Even the initial payments to help went out the window eventually!
I 100% expect Caterham to go bust as well, if the crowd-sourcing initiative is proven true. I mean what has F1 come to? Is this it? This isn't sport, it's f***ing with peoples' livelihoods. Those responsible for this mess (and they know damn well who they are) should hang their heads in shame.
CoopsII wrote:What a shame. When they were included for 2015 I thought there was some hope. No team for Jules to come back to now, either.
... - and to add insult to injury, Sauber will now be given the share of the prize money which would have otherwise gone to Marussia.
I'm not sure that's the case.
Only top 10 teams should share in the prize money which is split between CVC and the top 10. Teams outside the top 10 get paid out of the CVC's share, and not the teams prize money. Sauber should technically finish 10th and get the prize for that, with Caterham, if they still exist being eligible for a smaller payment for teams outside top 10. 9th place, if Marussia were to keep it would probably go to them and their creditors. If no team can claim the prize then i imagine it would be split evenly between all nine remaining teams meaning Sauber would only get a fraction of it. What the teams decide to do under the circumstances (teams folding, Bianchi still in hospital) is anyone's guess.
Leyton House wrote:Sauber - found out painting your car like an HRT will make it go like one.
AndreaModa wrote:I'm reminded of a copy of Autosport from late 2009 when Toyota pulled the plug on their F1 team. The headline on the cover went "WHY TOYOTA FAILED" with one of their cars beached unceremoniously in a gravel trap somewhere.
I feel much like that article now, only with the collective faces of the team principals in charge in 2009, Bernie, Mosely and Jean Todt, all on the front page and a big headline that reads "WHY YOU HAVE FAILED US". They are all responsible for the lies and deceit that resulted in three teams entering F1 in 2010 on the back of promised rules changes and budget cuts.
A large number of people were employed by these teams, many I suspect in their first roles in motorsport and F1. These good people have been lied to, let down and left in a terrible position. It's an absolute disgrace that Christian Horner, amongst the other team bosses, can stand there and effectively say "it's not our problem".
There are now literally hundreds of people without a job in a niche industry. Now companies go bust all the time, that's fair enough. But this is on the back of a complete inability from the sport's higher echelons to act on continued messages from all around that things were getting out of hand. That isn't the fault of Caterham, Marussia or HRT. They were promised rule changes, budget caps, and instead got sweet f*** all. Even the initial payments to help went out the window eventually!
I 100% expect Caterham to go bust as well, if the crowd-sourcing initiative is proven true. I mean what has F1 come to? Is this it? This isn't sport, it's f***ing with peoples' livelihoods. Those responsible for this mess (and they know damn well who they are) should hang their heads in shame.
Disgrace.
We're on the same page with this. It's absolutely ridiculous that the personnel of the top teams couldn't give two hoots about the livelihoods of the 400-500 people who are going to be out of work after 2014; fine, sure, they're not directly responsible for them, but they should be open to cultivating a sport where the people who give up a ton of family time to go racing don't have their careers on the line.
Right now, it seems everyone and their mums are burying their heads in the sand. How much more damage does F1 need to sustain before people start doing something?! I don't buy the "oh, it's F1, teams come and go"...THEY SHOULDN'T BE! You don't get this in other sports; did Portsmouth die when they went into administration? Did the governing body refuse to help them? No, no they didn't.
It's complete and utter rubbish that teams can still find themselves in this situation; cost caps are mooted most years, we get rumours of big sponsorship deals and takeovers that never materialise, and it's not going to stop until Bernie or Jean put their fingers in the sand, draw a line and start actively taking steps to prevent the demise of current and future teams.
Mitch Hedberg wrote:I want to be a race car passenger: just a guy who bugs the driver. Say man, can I turn on the radio? You should slow down. Why do we gotta keep going in circles? Man, you really like Tide...
AndreaModa wrote:I'm reminded of a copy of Autosport from late 2009 when Toyota pulled the plug on their F1 team. The headline on the cover went "WHY TOYOTA FAILED" with one of their cars beached unceremoniously in a gravel trap somewhere.
I feel much like that article now, only with the collective faces of the team principals in charge in 2009, Bernie, Mosely and Jean Todt, all on the front page and a big headline that reads "WHY YOU HAVE FAILED US". They are all responsible for the lies and deceit that resulted in three teams entering F1 in 2010 on the back of promised rules changes and budget cuts.
A large number of people were employed by these teams, many I suspect in their first roles in motorsport and F1. These good people have been lied to, let down and left in a terrible position. It's an absolute disgrace that Christian Horner, amongst the other team bosses, can stand there and effectively say "it's not our problem".
There are now literally hundreds of people without a job in a niche industry. Now companies go bust all the time, that's fair enough. But this is on the back of a complete inability from the sport's higher echelons to act on continued messages from all around that things were getting out of hand. That isn't the fault of Caterham, Marussia or HRT. They were promised rule changes, budget caps, and instead got sweet f*** all. Even the initial payments to help went out the window eventually!
I 100% expect Caterham to go bust as well, if the crowd-sourcing initiative is proven true. I mean what has F1 come to? Is this it? This isn't sport, it's f***ing with peoples' livelihoods. Those responsible for this mess (and they know damn well who they are) should hang their heads in shame.
Disgrace.
We're on the same page with this. It's absolutely ridiculous that the personnel of the top teams couldn't give two hoots about the livelihoods of the 400-500 people who are going to be out of work after 2014; fine, sure, they're not directly responsible for them, but they should be open to cultivating a sport where the people who give up a ton of family time to go racing don't have their careers on the line.
Right now, it seems everyone and their mums are burying their heads in the sand. How much more damage does F1 need to sustain before people start doing something?! I don't buy the "oh, it's F1, teams come and go"...THEY SHOULDN'T BE! You don't get this in other sports; did Portsmouth die when they went into administration? Did the governing body refuse to help them? No, no they didn't.
It's complete and utter rubbish that teams can still find themselves in this situation; cost caps are mooted most years, we get rumours of big sponsorship deals and takeovers that never materialise, and it's not going to stop until Bernie or Jean put their fingers in the sand, draw a line and start actively taking steps to prevent the demise of current and future teams.
I 100% agree. Things are just absolutely ridiculous. What is it with humans and only responding to problems after serious damage is done? Besides, the fact that Caterham are trying to crowd fund their effort shows just how low the sport has descended if teams can't get financial support of any sort from the FIA. And now that Marussia are gone, it's inevitable that Caterham will go as well, leaving 18 cars, which is something out of Champ Car in its final days. And besides, Bernie didn't even want those teams in the sport. Unfortunately IMO it's gonna take a larger team to fold before any serious attempt to reduce costs is enforced.
James Hunt, commentating on the 1991 German Grand Prix wrote:The Benettons looking very smart together on the track, mostly because they're both going so slowly.
I feel really sad about this. When the new teams came in, most people gravitated to HRT for whatever reason. But like I posted here when they went bust, I never could. They were a bloody amateur lot, too many ownership changes, too many factory moves, too many times "getting stuck in customs", too many stupid cry for help liveries, too many DNQs, and way too little actual development on the cars. Racing was 6th or 7th on their "to-do" list.
However, Marussia, had an amateur feel as well, but in a totally different way. They were basically a club level team getting to mix it up with the big boys. All their mistakes were rooted in this. Let's try CFD only, it works in GP2/GP3 (where development is much more limited), we can't get sponsors? So what we don't need them. Will sign with Virgin, even if he's going to bail immediately (again), then we'll sign with a car company who produced a total of 4 road cars. Just get us in the show. Cossies and X-tacs blow up a lot? Yea, but their cheapest, so we'll run them. Anything to get in the show. They at least tried, unlike HRT. As a racer myself, I always admired that, so I always rooted for them. Even their first car, not having a big enough gas tank and needing to resign the whole bathplugging thing, I understood. Its an easy mistake to make at that level. Ditto with most of their small upgrades not working, they were trying whatever, and with no windtunnel at first either.
This year, when they finally cracked the points, and bested even Sauber, I was literally screaming at my TV. It was like watching a Midwest sprint car team win the Indy 500. I'm gutted now. With the exception of Williams, there is no other team out there now who exists just to race (Catheram was a marketing ploy for the kit cars) and even Williams is publicly owned now, so how long will that last? Haas will come close, if they get off the ground. But F1 will suck next year, to me anyway.
EDIT: And they took their defeat like men too, not locking out the staff, bickering over Twitter, than begging for money. The Manor boys deserved better. And I am certain many of them will get picked up. They're real racers.
Professional Historian/Semi-Retired Drag Racer/Whiskey Enthusiast
"When I was still racing, I never once thought 'Oh, I can't damage the car here'." - Jolyn Palmer
Me either Jolyn, maybe that's why we're both out, eh?
CoopsII wrote:What a shame. When they were included for 2015 I thought there was some hope. No team for Jules to come back to now, either.
... - and to add insult to injury, Sauber will now be given the share of the prize money which would have otherwise gone to Marussia.
I'm not sure that's the case.
Only top 10 teams should share in the prize money which is split between CVC and the top 10. Teams outside the top 10 get paid out of the CVC's share, and not the teams prize money. Sauber should technically finish 10th and get the prize for that, with Caterham, if they still exist being eligible for a smaller payment for teams outside top 10. 9th place, if Marussia were to keep it would probably go to them and their creditors. If no team can claim the prize then i imagine it would be split evenly between all nine remaining teams meaning Sauber would only get a fraction of it. What the teams decide to do under the circumstances (teams folding, Bianchi still in hospital) is anyone's guess.
The BBC were claiming that, when it comes to dividing out the money from FOM, Sauber would be moved up into Marussia's position:
Marussia currently lie ninth in the championship thanks to the two points Bianchi scored by finishing ninth in Monaco.
They will retain that place officially, but when it comes to allocating the prize money from this season, the remaining team below them - Sauber - will be moved up and receive the funds instead.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning: "The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
mario wrote:The BBC were claiming that, when it comes to dividing out the money from FOM, Sauber would be moved up into Marussia's position:
BBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Professional Historian/Semi-Retired Drag Racer/Whiskey Enthusiast
"When I was still racing, I never once thought 'Oh, I can't damage the car here'." - Jolyn Palmer
Me either Jolyn, maybe that's why we're both out, eh?
AndreaModa wrote:I'm reminded of a copy of Autosport from late 2009 when Toyota pulled the plug on their F1 team. The headline on the cover went "WHY TOYOTA FAILED" with one of their cars beached unceremoniously in a gravel trap somewhere.
I feel much like that article now, only with the collective faces of the team principals in charge in 2009, Bernie, Mosely and Jean Todt, all on the front page and a big headline that reads "WHY YOU HAVE FAILED US". They are all responsible for the lies and deceit that resulted in three teams entering F1 in 2010 on the back of promised rules changes and budget cuts.
A large number of people were employed by these teams, many I suspect in their first roles in motorsport and F1. These good people have been lied to, let down and left in a terrible position. It's an absolute disgrace that Christian Horner, amongst the other team bosses, can stand there and effectively say "it's not our problem".
There are now literally hundreds of people without a job in a niche industry. Now companies go bust all the time, that's fair enough. But this is on the back of a complete inability from the sport's higher echelons to act on continued messages from all around that things were getting out of hand. That isn't the fault of Caterham, Marussia or HRT. They were promised rule changes, budget caps, and instead got sweet f*** all. Even the initial payments to help went out the window eventually!
I 100% expect Caterham to go bust as well, if the crowd-sourcing initiative is proven true. I mean what has F1 come to? Is this it? This isn't sport, it's f***ing with peoples' livelihoods. Those responsible for this mess (and they know damn well who they are) should hang their heads in shame.
Disgrace.
I totally agree with all of this. I have some respect for Ferrari, McLaren, Williams and (to a lesser extent) Mercedes as at least they have some F1 history but Horner and his team can **** right off as far as I'm concerned.
To echo a vast majority of members on here, I'm appalled at how the FIA and especially Bernie have dealt with that. I remember watching a quick interview with Bernie at Austin and he simply said "If they don't have the money to race, tough!" and to me that a shocking way to react to a team hitting their financial wall. We have known all along that Bernie doesn't care for teams fighting for lower positions but do we really want to go back to 2009? Or earlier, 2003 with just 20 cars on the track? Well, well done Bernie, you got your wish. . And now with Caterham almost certainly out, that leaves 18. And absolute joke of a sport...
And I'm including the big teams like Mercedes, McLaren, RedBull and especially Ferrari for not having the bollocks to stand up to the FIA and say this is all wrong. Sure, they will still race and be at the front, but if they must want their own little quad-titles they can bathplug off and form a breakaway championship.
RIP NAN - 26/12/2014 RIP DAD - 9/2/2015
Currently building a Subaru Impreza to compete in the 2016 MSV Trophy. PremierInn spokesperson for Great Ormond Street Hospital
mario wrote:The BBC were claiming that, when it comes to dividing out the money from FOM, Sauber would be moved up into Marussia's position:
If that is true (and I wouldn't be bloody surprised) then this is yet another one of Bernie's ludicrous rules. I really am losing interest in all of this. Having just got what I thought was a good deal on Sky Sports mainly for F1 - though I do watch football and cricket as well - for the next year, I'm tempted to cancel it and just stick a DVD in for an old season every time there's a race weekend. Maybe 83, that was fairly entertaining. I'll get to watch Jarier being a dick on a regular basis. And Rosberg senior driving like a genius, better than Rosberg junior any day.
I can't really add or say anything that hasn't been said already, but it is a damn shame that Marussia's done for. It felt so good seeing those guys get that points finish at Monaco, and now it's for nothing. Everyone in Formula One needs to have a good, long, hard look at themselves, because this situation was totally avoidable.
Ridiculous and sad that all three "new" teams from 2010 have now gone belly-up. Especially when one of them had finally managed to score some points this year!
Having grids of under 20 just makes it look like a dying formula.
I just cannot comprehend how the leading teams can sit round a table and think that the current model is sustainable. It's ludicrous. Why on earth should Ferrari end up getting more money at the end of this season, than both Red Bull and Williams, who they will finish behind? Why are there only payments down to 10th place? This isn't 19 f*cking 89 Bernie! The teams aren't queuing round the block anymore.
In it's current guise the sport is done for. It is totally unsustainable in just about every way. The big boys had their chance to look like heroes and save the day for everyone, but instead they've blown it big time and just pissed all over everyone's feet, their own included. Without massive revisions, the like Mosely was touting in 2009 when everyone kicked off, F1 is finished in my eyes. I can't see a future for it.
And in the grand scheme of things, whilst I'm pretty upset about Marussia going bust, it's not the end of the world. In times gone by, teams closing haven't really affected F1. But I think this time it's different. No-one is helping each other, and there's no-one to fill the gaps left by others. The fact that no-one has bought Marussia tells you everything. That 9th place in the constructors' championship is gold dust. That's probably the biggest asset Marussia had. And yet not even that could tempt anyone in. That tells me everything I need to know. Big companies, millionaire playboys, successful businessmen - they're all done with F1.
RIP Marussia. I really began to admire them more after Tony Fernandes got into trouble with Lotus Cars and made me wish the Lotus name never returned to F1 in the first place. Bianchi's points in Monaco is definitely one of the standout moments of the season for me, and even left me hoping they would beat Sauber, a team I used to really like, although less so since they dumped Kobayashi, or rather the reasons behind, and timing of their dumping of Kobayashi.
And, as others have said, the sport is becoming more and more of an unsustainable environment for a "garagiste" team. A terrible shame when it was the garagistes who have had the most success throughout the history of the sport, and were in fact on Bernie's side during the FISA-FOCA war.
This just sucks. Thank you Manor / Virgin / Marussia and all your team members for your efforts in making it in F1. Too bad it ended this way.
"I don't think we should be used to finance (the manufacturers') R&D because they will produce that engine anyway" said Monisha Kaltenborn. "You will never see a Mercedes using a Ferrari engine or the other way round."
AndreaModa wrote:I just cannot comprehend how the leading teams can sit round a table and think that the current model is sustainable.
Because the troubles don't directly affect them.
mario wrote:I'm wondering what the hell has been going on in this thread [...] it's turned into a bizarre detour into mythical flying horses and the sort of search engine results that CoopsII is going to have a very hard time explaining ...
AndreaModa wrote:I just cannot comprehend how the leading teams can sit round a table and think that the current model is sustainable.
Because the troubles don't directly affect them.
Exactly. The top teams won't do shite because the current model is sustainable for them, so they reject cost cutting measures because of their being selfish. It's a perfect example why having the top 6 teams vote for F1 changes is a bad idea, because the top teams will only do what suits them.
It's astonishing how the team's selfishness and FOM's bias are making this sport crumble down to the ground. It's a shame really, that things have to go this way.
