What Tracks Will Get the Boot?

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 19 Jan 2015, 07:32

I wonder if poor attendance at the German GPs has less to do with the tracks and more to do with their drivers. The fans were there for Michael, their Michael, as he quickly got on terms with the 80s legends and then went on to deftly bat away attacks from British pretenders, old rivals from Finland and that scruffy herbert from Canada, before finally painted the word SCHUMACHER in red all across the start of the noughties

Not enough German fans are feeling it for Vettel, Rosberg or Sutil ( :lol:

Sutil! As if) which is sort of surprising given Vettels success but, I think, they don't see him as having fought as hard as Schumacher did.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 19 Jan 2015, 11:29

CoopsII wrote:I wonder if poor attendance at the German GPs has less to do with the tracks and more to do with their drivers. The fans were there for Michael, their Michael, as he quickly got on terms with the 80s legends and then went on to deftly bat away attacks from British pretenders, old rivals from Finland and that scruffy herbert from Canada, before finally painted the word SCHUMACHER in red all across the start of the noughties

Not enough German fans are feeling it for Vettel, Rosberg or Sutil ( Sutil! As if) which is sort of surprising given Vettels success but, I think, they don't see him as having fought as hard as Schumacher did.

Well, I reckon it also helped that Schumacher was the first German champion, so that would be an advantage over Vettel. I also think that many Germans are also tiffosi and despite all the denial Ferrari is still Ferrari and maybe that is the reason why Vettel went to Ferrari. To conquer Schumacher levels of fame. Other reason is all the time it took to Schumacher (along with Todt, Brawn, Byrne, Montezemolo and others) to take Ferrari out of the gutter to become the Championship winning machine. By then Schumacher had become a legend and loved in Germany.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 19 Jan 2015, 16:30

DanielPT wrote:Well, I reckon it also helped that Schumacher was the first German champion, so that would be an advantage over Vettel. I also think that many Germans are also tiffosi and despite all the denial Ferrari is still Ferrari and maybe that is the reason why Vettel went to Ferrari. To conquer Schumacher levels of fame. Other reason is all the time it took to Schumacher (along with Todt, Brawn, Byrne, Montezemolo and others) to take Ferrari out of the gutter to become the Championship winning machine. By then Schumacher had become a legend and loved in Germany.

I think it's a gut feeling rather that statistical reasons. Senna wasnt the first Brazillian WDC but look at his still enduring appeal. Germans being tifosi, maybe, but they were hardcore Benetton fans for a while so I think wherever he went they would've followed adoringly. Being part of the team that dragged Ferrari from the red gutter did play a part, though, I'm sure.

Perhaps German F1 fans just think Vettel is an arse, and don't want to part with their hard-earned Euros to watch him. I'd ask Klon for his opinion but he'd probably get all mental and start having a pop at me for being English. :lol:

Loser.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 19 Jan 2015, 18:50

CoopsII wrote:I think it's a gut feeling rather that statistical reasons. Senna wasnt the first Brazillian WDC but look at his still enduring appeal. Germans being tifosi, maybe, but they were hardcore Benetton fans for a while so I think wherever he went they would've followed adoringly. Being part of the team that dragged Ferrari from the red gutter did play a part, though, I'm sure.

Certainly the way they won, coupled with the kind of interaction they have with masses is also important. The background may play its part too. This is why that, despite his 3 WDC, Nelson Piquet was disliked in Brazil in comparison with both Fittipaldi and Senna. Generally speaking the poorer the background the better chances there are one will be liked when famous because of the whole breakthrough dream most people have. All this despite knowing Senna came from a rich background (his interaction with people changed this perception).

As for the hardcore Benetton fans, well, they were mostly Schumacher fans but I reckon they weren't that many back then although I admit the lack of evidence on this. Coincidently, I seen somewhere that more than 90000 people attended the German Moto GP race this year in comparison with the meagre 55000 of the F1 race. This despite the lack of German front runners in all three categories. This might imply that while the absence of a Schumacher-like figure may play its part in the low attendance figures, a larger size of blame is elsewhere other than drivers or tracks. I think that the reason is simple and is that the Germans are experts at acknowledging when they are blatantly being ripped off...

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 19 Jan 2015, 20:09

Not sure what the pricing structure in Germany is, but MotoGP tickets don't exactly come cheap either though. In terms of the crowds for MotoGP you need look no further than the characters in it.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 19 Jan 2015, 21:55

AndreaModa wrote:Not sure what the pricing structure in Germany is, but MotoGP tickets don't exactly come cheap either though. In terms of the crowds for MotoGP you need look no further than the characters in it.

The year just passed me and my friend went to Silverstone for the F1 and not the MotoGP. We were originally going to see the motorcycling but the real "meh"-ness of the season last year changed our minds. For us it does have a lot to do with how good we think the race might actually be, and after seeing Bahrain we just had to go

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 20 Jan 2015, 11:12

AndreaModa wrote:Not sure what the pricing structure in Germany is, but MotoGP tickets don't exactly come cheap either though. In terms of the crowds for MotoGP you need look no further than the characters in it.

A quick check tells me the prices are more or less even in Germany. Still, I think you get more value in your MotoGP tickets than you get in F1. Are you saying that there are more MotoGP fans at the base because the characters in it than F1? I can believe in that actually...

tBone · Post by **tBone** » 20 Jan 2015, 15:13

DanielPT wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:Not sure what the pricing structure in Germany is, but MotoGP tickets don't exactly come cheap either though. In terms of the crowds for MotoGP you need look no further than the characters in it.

A quick check tells me the prices are more or less even in Germany. Still, I think you get more value in your MotoGP tickets than you get in F1. Are you saying that there are more MotoGP fans at the base because the characters in it than F1? I can believe in that actually...

Do you have examples of those characters? I can only think of Valentino Rossi as an outstanding character in MotoGP. Guys like Lorenzo and Marquez seem less remarkable as characters, in my opinion similar to Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen etc.

The racing action might be more of a cause. I feel MotoGP is a little bit more genuine, because of the lack of (K)ERS, DRS and other 'artificial' systems. There is a lot of on-track action in it, maybe more than in F1 at the moment.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 20 Jan 2015, 15:36

tBone wrote:Do you have examples of those characters? I can only think of Valentino Rossi as an outstanding character in MotoGP. Guys like Lorenzo and Marquez seem less remarkable as characters, in my opinion similar to Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen etc.

I meant the characters in the crowd. It followed AndreaModa's line of thought. I think he meant the biker mentality which immediately connects with bike racing and track racing in most cases. On the other hand, you have petrol heads that while like racing, don't watch it never mind liking F1.

tBone wrote:The racing action might be more of a cause. I feel MotoGP is a little bit more genuine, because of the lack of (K)ERS, DRS and other 'artificial' systems. There is a lot of on-track action in it, maybe more than in F1 at the moment.

I think MotoGP gap between bikes is wider now than 10 years ago. But then again I stopped watching full MotoGP races as soon as it changed from Eurosport to subscription based Channels.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 29 Jan 2015, 17:56

Question!! does a track need Tilkey, square corners to qualify for a Formula One schedule?

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 29 Jan 2015, 18:09

man they really butchered what was once a great track.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 29 Jan 2015, 18:22

nome66 wrote:Question!! does a track need Tilkey, square corners to qualify for a Formula One schedule?

In the Autosport article that picture came from, they explained exactly why the changes to the Esses and Peraltada happened.

"The biggest question we get asked is 'why did you have to change it?'" says architect Tilke's on-site representative Christian Epp.

"The Peraltada corner has a lot of tradition and is historic and we tried every effort to keep it, but it's really impossible.

"The safety measures today would not allow us, the FIA would not accept it."

"There is so much construction on the exit of the corner, you wouldn't be able to create any run-off here. So that's the explanation of why this section doesn't work."

"Also we kept the Esses, but basically we flipped them around. You see in Turn 9 there was no run-off there.

"So we had to move the track to a position where we can create that run-off. In essence, we keep the old Esses, but we accommodate the track to new safety standards."

And as for the rest of the track - were those corners really that great? Hell, I'm not convinced the Esses were anything to right home about, to be honest.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 29 Jan 2015, 18:45

Salamander wrote:
And as for the rest of the track - were those corners really that great? Hell, I'm not convinced the Esses were anything to right home about, to be honest.

They beat a bunch of straights. This new layout looks like they took old Monza and just traced it, cutting up the Parabolica.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 29 Jan 2015, 18:48

Wallio wrote:
Salamander wrote:
And as for the rest of the track - were those corners really that great? Hell, I'm not convinced the Esses were anything to right home about, to be honest.

They beat a bunch of straights.

But they're still there... just reprofiled

This new layout looks like they took old Monza and just traced it, cutting up the Parabolica.

Yeah, because the original Mexico City was such a paragon of originality...

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 29 Jan 2015, 20:00

nome66 wrote:Question!! does a track need Tilkey, square corners to qualify for a Formula One schedule?

Yes.

watka · Post by **watka** » 30 Jan 2015, 00:44

I liked Fuji and see no reason why I won't like the new Hermanos Rodriguez circuit.

AdrianBelmonte_ · Post by **AdrianBelmonte_** » 30 Jan 2015, 10:06

watka wrote:I liked Fuji and see no reason why I won't like the new Hermanos Rodriguez circuit.

Fuji have elevation changes and an amazing background

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 30 Jan 2015, 19:24

And because of its location, it was pretty much guaranteed monsoonal conditions.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 31 Jan 2015, 11:26

I miss Fuji. They should have two Japanese Grand Prix each year. Replace... I don't know, Abu Dhabi or Russia or something and bring back the "Pacific Grand Prix"!

andrew2209 · Post by **andrew2209** » 31 Jan 2015, 11:29

Fuji seems like a track that should be great, but some corners are a real pain in the backside, from my experience on Gran Turismo. Also, the old last corner was better in my opinion.

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 31 Jan 2015, 14:50

andrew2209 wrote:Fuji seems like a track that should be great, but some corners are a real pain in the backside, from my experience on Gran Turismo. Also, the old last corner was better in my opinion.

I personally love the corners that I think you suggest are a "real pain in the backside." Likely the last 4 corners or so, but despite the incredible challenge of getting it right lap after lap, I thouroughly enjoy it.

I, for once, would love to see Fuji back on the F1 calendar. Only problem is, akin to most Japanese circuits, it's in the middle of nowhere. Suzuka is really the best option in terms of within civilization, as F1 would never race at Tsukuba (way too short).

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 31 Jan 2015, 19:09

Fuji doesn't really fit F1 but it does beautifully work for WEC

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 31 Jan 2015, 20:38

go_Rubens wrote:
andrew2209 wrote:Fuji seems like a track that should be great, but some corners are a real pain in the backside, from my experience on Gran Turismo. Also, the old last corner was better in my opinion.

I personally love the corners that I think you suggest are a "real pain in the backside." Likely the last 4 corners or so, but despite the incredible challenge of getting it right lap after lap, I thouroughly enjoy it.

I, for once, would love to see Fuji back on the F1 calendar. Only problem is, akin to most Japanese circuits, it's in the middle of nowhere. Suzuka is really the best option in terms of within civilization, as F1 would never race at Tsukuba (way too short).

Despite it being challenging, it's good?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 31 Jan 2015, 22:43

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
go_Rubens wrote:
andrew2209 wrote:Fuji seems like a track that should be great, but some corners are a real pain in the backside, from my experience on Gran Turismo. Also, the old last corner was better in my opinion.

I personally love the corners that I think you suggest are a "real pain in the backside." Likely the last 4 corners or so, but despite the incredible challenge of getting it right lap after lap, I thouroughly enjoy it.

Despite it being challenging, it's good?

I think he said that he thoroughly enjoys it, despite it being a challenge to get right lap after lap.

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 31 Jan 2015, 23:23

dr-baker wrote:
UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
go_Rubens wrote:
I personally love the corners that I think you suggest are a "real pain in the backside." Likely the last 4 corners or so, but despite the incredible challenge of getting it right lap after lap, I thouroughly enjoy it.

Despite it being challenging, it's good?

I think he said that he thoroughly enjoys it, despite it being a challenge to get right lap after lap.

I am also pretty sure he said that as well.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 31 Jan 2015, 23:30

If they could schedule the race for one of the three days in the year when the rain is not hammering down, it might be okay. The problem is that the circuit sits in the rainshadow of Mt. Fuji, so it gets drenched as a matter of course.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 01 Feb 2015, 06:23

how about Autopolis? seems to be an interesting layout.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 01 Feb 2015, 07:29

It was built specifically for Formula 1, but it's extremely isolated - even by the standards set by Japanese circuits. There's no support infrastructure, like accommodation, nearby, either.

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 01 Feb 2015, 09:22

Captain Hammer wrote:It was built specifically for Formula 1, but it's extremely isolated - even by the standards set by Japanese circuits. There's no support infrastructure, like accommodation, nearby, either.

I think that is the issue for Autopolis, it's isolation because as a circuit, I really like it's layout. in fact I think it is a very underrated circuit.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 01 Feb 2015, 14:02

I remember Autopolis being a sposor of the Benetton team in 1993 (in the same way Bahrain sponsored the Jordan team in around 2003) with the intention of Autopolis holding a race in the mid-1990s. I've always thought how similar the name of that track was to Autopia, a ride at Disneyland...

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 01 Feb 2015, 18:11

dr-baker wrote:I remember Autopolis being a sposor of the Benetton team in 1993 (in the same way Bahrain sponsored the Jordan team in around 2003) with the intention of Autopolis holding a race in the mid-1990s. I've always thought how similar the name of that track was to Autopia, a ride at Disneyland...

Apologies for nitpicking but it was actually 1990/91 that they sponsored them baker:

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 01 Feb 2015, 19:38

AndreaModa wrote:
dr-baker wrote:I remember Autopolis being a sposor of the Benetton team in 1993 (in the same way Bahrain sponsored the Jordan team in around 2003) with the intention of Autopolis holding a race in the mid-1990s. I've always thought how similar the name of that track was to Autopia, a ride at Disneyland...

Apologies for nitpicking but it was actually 1990/91 that they sponsored them baker.

No problems. I knew it was not long before I really got into F1, I just got the year a bit wrong.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 17 Mar 2015, 15:09

Hockenheim is not going to step in as a replacement for Nürburgring and thus, there won't be a German Grand Prix in 2015.

However, Hockenheim will host the 2016 German Grand Prix as planned.

I'd say that's a reasonable decision by the Hockenheim promoter.

It's going to be interesting how much of a ticket sales increase will result from this for Spa and the Red Bull Ring.

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 18 Mar 2015, 23:38

Eau Rouge dangerous as ever.

http://www.foxsports.com/motor/story/sp ... nts-031715

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 19 Mar 2015, 00:03

Dj_bereta wrote:Eau Rouge dangerous as ever.

http://www.foxsports.com/motor/story/sp ... nts-031715

Good news is they're only 3 cm high, but surely there's a better solution than this?

madmark1974 · Post by **madmark1974** » 03 Sep 2015, 09:47

So .. Istanbul Park will be hosting cars again ... But not quite in the way they'd hoped ...

http://www.todayszaman.com/business_f1-racetrack-in-turkey-to-become-used-car-lot_397723.html

Istanbul Park, built at a cost of $290 million in 2005 to hold Formula 1 races that sputtered to a halt in 2011 due to a lack of interest, is to become a used car dealership, according to a report in the Sözcü daily on Friday.

Spectoremg · Post by **Spectoremg** » 03 Sep 2015, 19:46

It's a shame Turkey got sidelined for whatever reason. I thought it was one of the better new tracks.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 03 Sep 2015, 22:13

With this latest news about Istanbul Park being turned into a car dealership, I thought I'd take a look at some of Tilke's tracks that, as the thread title suggests have "already got the boot". I've tried to find concept/visualisation artwork which includes stuff like wildly over-optimistic crowd sizes, the entire city that was meant to surround the Korean track, etc, etc. All for a little laugh!

Korea
Here's Vettel describing a lap around a rather lavish looking Korea International Circuit.

And here's some shots of what it should have looked like:

Big crowds, and bigger buildings!

And here's how it ended up. Watch from 4:00 onwards to get a real sense of the unfinished state of the whole area.

India
Here's a shot of the Buddh International Circuit with all of those white/orange/green mosaic "imitation crowd" seats filled with the bums of millions of virtual Indians:

Valencia
To be fair to Valencia, they could draw a crowd:

But look what's happened to it since:

I wonder how much money these, plus Istanbul Park, all cost together? Four circuits, and only India with any prospect of a return, and I doubt that unless laws are changed. If I lived in any of these countries and these were even part-government funded, I'd be looking for a few answers!

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 04 Sep 2015, 11:29

I have just the car to tackle that particular track...

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 04 Sep 2015, 14:45

Yeah the second video of Korea reminds me very much of Mad Max. Such a desolately empty area.