Unusual F1 Stats

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 10 Aug 2015, 09:41

In regards to the '3 penalties in a race weekend', I'm pretty sure Badoer picked up three speeding penalties in Valencia whilst subbing at Ferrari. :badoer:

Also, Norberto Fontana picked up 3 speeding penalties in his first race for Sauber in 1997.

Probably a few more out there...

MartinJS81 · Post by **MartinJS81** » 20 Aug 2015, 22:23

dr-baker wrote:One related fact I read a while ago, and which I believe continues to hold true, is that Jenson Button has never had a teammate win a race in a season in which he too has not won a race. In other words, whenever Jenson has been in a race-winning chassis, he has managed to win a race.

Impressive, though far from unique - Senna, Prost, Hamilton (obviously) and Alonso (off the top of my head) all fit with this stat, for a start. I think even some non-world-champions like Moss and Villeneuve.

tBone · Post by **tBone** » 21 Aug 2015, 07:26

MartinJS81 wrote:
dr-baker wrote:One related fact I read a while ago, and which I believe continues to hold true, is that Jenson Button has never had a teammate win a race in a season in which he too has not won a race. In other words, whenever Jenson has been in a race-winning chassis, he has managed to win a race.

Impressive, though far from unique - Senna, Prost, Hamilton (obviously) and Alonso (off the top of my head) all fit with this stat, for a start. I think even some non-world-champions like Moss and Villeneuve.

Alonso doesn't. Trulli won a race in the 2004 Renault, while Alonso didn't. Or am I confused now?

I think there are even one-time winners who fit. Without any further checks, my mind comes up with Kubica and Panis.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 21 Aug 2015, 09:59

Would Mansell count?

He did win a race in 1990 when not too busy being outqualified by a Eurobrun didn't he?

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 21 Aug 2015, 21:44

FullMetalJack wrote:Would Mansell count?

He did win a race in 1990 when not too busy being outqualified by a Eurobrun didn't he?

1990 Portuguese gp was shortened when Mansell had a coming together with Alliot was it not?

novitopoli · Post by **novitopoli** » 22 Aug 2015, 10:07

MartinJS81 wrote:
dr-baker wrote:One related fact I read a while ago, and which I believe continues to hold true, is that Jenson Button has never had a teammate win a race in a season in which he too has not won a race. In other words, whenever Jenson has been in a race-winning chassis, he has managed to win a race.

Impressive, though far from unique - Senna, Prost, Hamilton (obviously) and Alonso (off the top of my head) all fit with this stat, for a start. I think even some non-world-champions like Moss and Villeneuve.

Even HWNSNBM, Deletraz, Lavaggi, Perry McCarthy and Yuji Ide fit with this stat...

Pointrox · Post by **Pointrox** » 23 Aug 2015, 16:58

Romain Grosjean is the first Frenchman to score a podium finish in Formula One since Romain Grosjean's 2nd place at the 2013 United States Grand Prix.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 23 Aug 2015, 17:33

Pointrox wrote:Romain Grosjean is the first Frenchman to score a podium finish in Formula One since Romain Grosjean's 2nd place at the 2013 United States Grand Prix.

This isn't the return of "Bad F1 Stats" on Twitter is it?

GerhardTalger · Post by **GerhardTalger** » 25 Aug 2015, 09:00

MadGaz85 wrote:Might sound a bit morbid, but is 1995 the earliest F1 season where every driver who participated is still alive today?

3 months later this isn't true... not only for one but for two cases. Pretty harsh days, so to speak.

Meatwad · Post by **Meatwad** » 25 Aug 2015, 22:47

GerhardTalger wrote:
MadGaz85 wrote:Might sound a bit morbid, but is 1995 the earliest F1 season where every driver who participated is still alive today?

3 months later this isn't true... not only for one but for two cases. Pretty harsh days, so to speak.

The part about all 1995 drivers being alive is still true. Sadly, the same doesn't apply to 2003, 2013 or 2014...

Izzyeviel · Post by **Izzyeviel** » 25 Aug 2015, 23:47

WeirdKerr wrote:
FullMetalJack wrote:Would Mansell count?

He did win a race in 1990 when not too busy being outqualified by a Eurobrun didn't he?

1990 Portuguese gp was shortened when Mansell had a coming together with Alliot was it not?

No it was cut short because of Alex Caffi's accident.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 26 Aug 2015, 01:22

The chronology of the oldest/youngest living drivers in the sport's history. Records not counting the Indy 500 are in italics.

Oldest living driver to have started a Grand Prix

Philippe Étancelin - 13th May 1950-13th October 1981
Adolf Brudes - 13th October 1981-5th November 1986
George Connor - 5th November 1986-28th March 2001
Eitel Cantoni - 5th November 1986-6th June 1997
Luigi Villoresi - 6th June 1997-24th August 1997
Dorino Serafini - 24th August 1997-5th July 2000
Charles Pozzi - 5th July 2000-28th February 2001
Karl Kling - 28th February/28th March 2001-18th March 2003
Paul Pietsch - 18th March 2003-31st May 2012
Robert Manzon - 31st May 2012-19th January 2015
Eric Thompson - 19th January 2015-22nd August 2015
Kenneth McAlpine - 22nd August 2015-

Youngest living driver to have started a Grand Prix

Geoffrey Crossley - 13th May 1950-21st May 1950
José Froilán González - 21st May 1950-30th May 1950/27th May 1951
Troy Ruttman - 30th May 1950-18th May 1952
Stirling Moss - 27th May 1951-18th May 1952
Peter Collins - 18th May 1952-22nd May 1955
Cesare Perdisa - 22nd May 1955-30th May 1956/26th May 1958
Billy Garrett - 30th May 1956-26th May 1958
Carel Godin de Beaufort - 26th May 1958-30th May 1958/10th May 1959
A. J. Foyt - 30th May 1958-10th May 1959
Bruce McLaren - 10th May 1959-5th July 1959
Fritz d'Orey - 5th July 1959-10th September 1961
Ricardo Rodríguez - 10th September 1961-1st November 1962
Fritz d'Orey - 1st November 1962-29th December 1962
Mike Harris - 29th December 1962-9th June 1963
Chris Amon - 9th June 1963-10th September 1967
Jacky Ickx - 10th September 1967-5th October 1969
George Eaton - 5th October 1969-18th July 1970
Emerson Fittipaldi - 18th July 1970-15th August 1971
Niki Lauda - 15th August 1971-8th October 1972
Jody Scheckter - 8th October 1972-13th January 1974
Hans-Joachim Stuck - 13th January 1974-27th April 1975
Tony Brise - 27th April 1975-29th November 1975
Hans-Joachim Stuck - 29th November 1975-25th January 1976
Ingo Hoffmann - 25th January 1976-8th May 1977
Rupert Keegan - 8th May 1977-31st July 1977
Héctor Rebaque - 31st July 1977-4th March 1978
Eddie Cheever - 4th March 1978-21st January 1979
Elio de Angelis - 21st January 1979-28th September 1980
Mike Thackwell - 28th September 1980-13th March 1983
Corrado Fabi - 13th March 1983-7th April 1985
Pierluigi Martini - 7th April 1985-6th October 1985
Ivan Capelli - 6th October 1985-7th September 1986
Alex Caffi - 7th September 1986-27th September 1987
Nicola Larini - 27th September 1987-29th May 1988
Bernd Schneider - 29th May 1988-9th July 1989
Éric Bernard - 9th July 1989-1st October 1989
JJ Lehto - 1st October 1989-25th March 1990
Gianni Morbidelli - 25th March 1990-10th March 1991
Mika Häkkinen - 10th March 1991-25th August 1991
Michael Schumacher - 25th August 1991-1st March 1992
Christian Fittipaldi - 1st March 1992-14th March 1993
Rubens Barrichello - 14th March 1993-22nd October 1995
Jan Magnussen - 22nd October 1995-31st March 1996
Tarso Marques - 31st March 1996-8th March 1998
Esteban Tuero - 8th March 1998-12th March 2000
Jenson Button - 12th March 2000-4th March 2001
Fernando Alonso - 4th March 2001-7th March 2004
Christian Klien - 7th March 2004-12th March 2006
Nico Rosberg - 12th March 2006-17th June 2007
Sebastian Vettel - 17th June 2007-29th March 2009
Sébastien Buemi - 29th March 2009-26th July 2009
Jaime Alguersuari - 26th July 2009-18th March 2012
Jean-Éric Vergne - 18th March 2012-17th March 2013
Esteban Gutiérrez - 17th March 2013-16th March 2014
Daniil Kvyat - 16th March 2014-15th March 2015
Max Verstappen - 15th March 2015-

MartinJS81 · Post by **MartinJS81** » 27 Aug 2015, 21:44

FullMetalJack wrote:Would Mansell count?

He did win a race in 1990 when not too busy being outqualified by a Eurobrun didn't he?

1982 is what excludes Mansell - de Angelis won in the other Lotus in Austria (a race in which turbo cars qualified in the top 5, all failed to finish, four through enigne failures, and de Angelis won from 6th on the grid, with Rosberg 2nd from 7th in another no-turbo car. Talk about The Hare and The Tortoise.

And I was onyl thinking of drivers who had won races, not guys who were never in race-winning cars.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 28 Aug 2015, 00:27

Top ten longest lived drivers

1. Paul Pietsch - 100 years 11 months 11 days (20th June 1911 - 31st May 2012)
2. Robert Manzon - 97 years 9 months 7 days (12th April 1917 - 19th January 2015)
3. Eric Thompson - 95 years 9 months 18 days (4th November 1919 - 22nd August 2015)
4. John Fitch - 95 years 2 months 27 days (4th August 1917 - 31st October 2012)
5. Kenneth McAlpine - 94 years 11 months 7 days (21st September 1920 - still living)
6. George Connor - 94 years 7 months 12 days (16th August 1906 - 28th March 2001)
7. Tony Crook - 93 years 11 months 5 days (16th February 1920 - 21st January 2014)
8. Tony Gaze - 93 years 5 months 26 days (3rd February 1920 - 29th July 2013)
9. Leslie Marr - 93 years 14 days (14th August 1922 - still living)
10. Toulo de Graffenried - 92 years 8 months 4 days - (18th May 1914 - 22nd January 2007)

These are only counting drivers who started a race. F2 entries in the German and Moroccan Grands Prix of the past were not counted, although it is worth noting that Robert La Caze was 98 when he died in July and André Guelfi is 96 and still going.

Peteroli34 · Post by **Peteroli34** » 05 Sep 2015, 23:58

So far this season only 3 times have all 20 drivers started the race in the positions they actually qualified China, Spain and Hungary.

f1andrea · Post by **f1andrea** » 12 Sep 2015, 16:30

with 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 point system, Force India takes 142 races for equaling the 172 points of Brawn GP in 2009 (it happen at 2015 Belgian GP)

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 15 Sep 2015, 03:42

Champions by best runner-up points/winner points ratio:
1. Nigel Mansell (51.9%)
1. Jacques Villeneuve (51.9%)
3. Michael Schumacher (52.8%)
4. Jackie Stewart (53.2%)
5. Jim Clark (53.7%)
6. Juan Manuel Fangio (57.5%)
7. Sebastian Vettel (61.0%)
8. Alberto Ascari (66.7%)
8. Jack Brabham (66.7%)
10. Niki Lauda (69.8%)
11. Graham Hill (71.4%)
12. Alain Prost (72.6%)
13. Emerson Fittipaldi (73.8%)
14. Ayrton Senna (75%)
15. Mario Andretti (79.7%)
16. Damon Hill (80.4%)
17. Alan Jones (80.6%)
18. Lewis Hamilton (82.6%)
19. Nelson Piquet (83.6%)
20. Fernando Alonso (84.2%)
21. Mika Häkkinen (86%)
22. Jenson Button (88.4%)
23. Keke Rosberg (88.6%)
24. Jochen Rindt (88.8%)
25. Giuseppe Farina (90%)
26. Denny Hulme (90.2%)
27. Jody Scheckter (92.2%)
28. Phil Hill (97.1%)
29. John Surtees (97.5%)
30. Mike Hawthorn (97.6%)
31. James Hunt (98.6%)
32. Kimi Räikkönen (99.1%)

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 20 Sep 2015, 16:04

Creepily, Vettel ran in P1, Ricciardo in P2 and Kimi in P3, in those respective positions... for the entire race! When was the last time that happened?

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 20 Sep 2015, 16:17

good_Ralf wrote:Creepily, Vettel ran in P1, Ricciardo in P2 and Kimi in P3, in those respective positions... for the entire race! When was the last time that happened?

Currently at 2010 and still I have yet to find another occurrence of this phenomenon, though I think our Lap Points man tommykl might have the answer before me

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 20 Sep 2015, 16:19

Ferrari have won every race that's been interrupted by a track invader

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 20 Sep 2015, 16:41

Simtek wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:Creepily, Vettel ran in P1, Ricciardo in P2 and Kimi in P3, in those respective positions... for the entire race! When was the last time that happened?

Currently at 2010 and still I have yet to find another occurrence of this phenomenon, though I think our Lap Points man tommykl might have the answer before me

And the answer is the 1992 British Grand Prix, where Mansell, Patrese and Brundle were in the top three without changing positions for all 59 laps. Senna was also running fourth for the whole race up until his transmission failure seven laps from the end. Bahrain 2010 might also have seen a repeat of this result had Vettel not run into trouble towards the end.

MorbidelliObese · Post by **MorbidelliObese** » 22 Sep 2015, 09:38

Simtek wrote:
Simtek wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:Creepily, Vettel ran in P1, Ricciardo in P2 and Kimi in P3, in those respective positions... for the entire race! When was the last time that happened?

Currently at 2010 and still I have yet to find another occurrence of this phenomenon, though I think our Lap Points man tommykl might have the answer before me

And the answer is the 1992 British Grand Prix, where Mansell, Patrese and Brundle were in the top three without changing positions for all 59 laps. Senna was also running fourth for the whole race up until his transmission failure seven laps from the end. Bahrain 2010 might also have seen a repeat of this result had Vettel not run into trouble towards the end.

I was always under the impression (as per the season review anyway) that Senna had passed Brundle just before conking out, but Forix says otherwise. Unless he'd passed him then broken down on the same lap before crossing the line to make it official. Will have to rewatch the race to be sure.

MartinJS81 · Post by **MartinJS81** » 27 Sep 2015, 19:29

Subject: Unusual F1 Stats

good_Ralf wrote:Creepily, Vettel ran in P1, Ricciardo in P2 and Kimi in P3, in those respective positions... for the entire race! When was the last time that happened?

I think the first word should have been 'crappily'....

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 17 Nov 2015, 20:10

Assuming that a freak great result from one of the competitors behind him in the championship doesn't happen in Abu Dhabi, Pastor Maldonado will finish the season in 14th. That will be the best season-ending position in F1 of his career - even better than 2012 where he won a race.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 17 Nov 2015, 23:27

Rob Dylan wrote:Assuming that a freak great result from one of the competitors behind him in the championship doesn't happen in Abu Dhabi, Pastor Maldonado will finish the season in 14th. That will be the best season-ending position in F1 of his career - even better than 2012 where he won a race.

And if you discounted his win from his 2012 tally, he'd have scored less points in '12 than '15. Also in 2012, Pastor, including the Spain win, scored in 5 races, he's scored in 6 so far. It's worth saying again, this is his best season, consistency wise. Having said all that, Maldonado will promptly cause a 6-car pileup at Yas Marina in 2 weeks.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 21 Nov 2015, 04:25

F1 StatsOff!™
I don't really know where to put this, but I figured here was better than the Ponderbox. It won't have enough posts for its own thread. Anyway, I decided to use Mark Wessel's site to do a thing where I compare a bunch of F1 drivers in a bracket. Some of it will be based on how good I think they were, but it'll mostly be stats. The top 64 drivers by normalised 2003 points were put into a bracket and seeded with the same method.

First round, part 1
Michael Schumacher - Chris Amon
If you thought Chris Amon was unlucky before, look who he gets to face in the very first round. As for why Schumacher wins... pick any stat.

Ralf Schumacher - Jean Alesi
6-1 wins for Schumacher, 32-27 podiums for Alesi. There really isn't much of a way to compare them, their five common seasons not proving useful, so I'll have to base this on feelings. Whilst Alesi could have been champion with a better choice of team, I don't think the same of Schumacher, so I'm giving it to Alesi. There.

Nigel Mansell - Richie Ginther
Podiums/GP: 0.31-0.26. That is the one stat Richie Ginther wins in. Just kidding, it's the one stat where he comes closest to winning.

Gerhard Berger - Alan Jones
Technically their careers overlapped, but that doesn't help much. Berger has half the wins/GP but is just ahead on podiums. Berger also lasted four more years in F1. But you know what Alan Jones has that Berger doesn't? A championship, of course. Really, who was better? Jones was.

Rubens Barrichello - James Hunt
Barrichello had a much longer career. But as f1metrics pointed out, Hunt never performed worse than a teammate, whilst Barrichello... well, he was number two for a reason. You could argue for hours whether Hunt or Lauda deserved 1976, but what title has Barrichello maybe deserved? Hunt advances.

Emerson Fittipaldi - Alberto Ascari
Fittipaldi's career has everything Ascari's has, plus some. Apart from winninglol (Fittipaldi's best win streak: 2), but you don't get one and a quarter championships for winning extra hard. Perhaps because he was born into a safer time, this one goes to Fittipaldi.

Nelson Piquet - Maurice Trintignant
Apparently, Maurice Trintignant competed in all of the first fifteen seasons of the World Championship. What did he do? I don't know. Nelson Piquet may be the least inspiring of all trichampions, but he's better than a guy who's primarily known for being hard to spell.

Carlos Reutemann - Giancarlo Fisichella
Even discounting that he had fewer races, Reutemann beats Fisichella in everything. This one didn't take much thought.

Lewis Hamilton - Patrick Depailler
Er... yeah. Hamilton wins. Not much to say, really.

John Surtees - Clay Regazzoni
Before you scoff and move on, consider that the wins/GP is .05-.04 and podiums is .21-.20, both in favour of Surtees, but not by much. So is there some other important stat where Regazzoni blows Surtees away, securing an upset victory? Well, no. Surtees still wins.

Jackie Stewart - René Arnoux
René Arnoux. Despite the three-title difference, you know something he managed to do that Jackie Stewart never did? Seriously, do you? Stewart wins.

Mika Häkkinen - Jacques Villeneuve
With 11 seasons and 165 GPs each, this is the easiest comparison yet. Häkkinen has wins 20-11, podiums 51-23, championships 2-1, and deserved championships 0-0. Once you get down to 6th, that's when Villeneuve has finished in a position more often. Probably. The chart has American-style "get a position even if you retire" positions, so don't quote me on that. But yeah, in a pure stat comparison, Häkkinen wins.

Ayrton Senna - Nick Heidfeld
Senna leads 41-0 in wins, 80-13 in podiums, and 1729-3 in butchered pronunciations. It's not a hard decision.

Riccardo Patrese - Giuseppe Farina
There is no good way to compare these two. They're both going to lose to Senna anyway, so does it matter that much? Of course it does, this is F... it's GP Rejects. But even the f1metrics ranking puts them fairly close. So since this is about stats, I guess Farina wins with his championship, even if it was by mechanical fluke.

Juan Manuel Fangio - Mario Andretti
If there's one guy stats guys love more than the average fan does, it's Fangio. Fangio has twice as many wins, and that's not taking into account that he drove for fewer seasons and in the 1950s. You could rattle off all sorts of stats, but it would be a waste of time. Fangio wins.

Felipe Massa - Juan Pablo Montoya
Don't do number stuff before you go to sleep, kids. Anyway, the new opinion: my initial reaction was that Massa was almost champion and Montoya wasn't, but now that I'm awake, I'm reminded of 2003. One thing that makes this difficult for me is 2010-13; should it just be discounted as a weird story arc in Massa's career, or can you just not ignore what he didn't manage to do? How much does the crash in Hungary matter? We just don't know what the crash did. If you take out the Sauber years and the poor years at Ferrari, it's a really close stats battle, as far as the top positions go. And since they were in F1 together for a few years and Montoya's relatively short career was his own fault, I think it's fair to treat that time as "bonus years". Massa moves on.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 21 Nov 2015, 08:18

Massa. Better than JPM. Are you for real? The guy who spent years being Alonso's number 2? Over the guy widely reputed to be one of the fastest in the sport while he was in it? Granted, JPM turned out to be a bit of a disappointment, but at least he managed to leave with his reputation for being fast mostly intact.

And Massa debuted in 2002, after Montoya.

WaffleCat · Post by **WaffleCat** » 21 Nov 2015, 09:03

I found this out when doing my alternative championship...

Eliseo Salazar is the only driver in 1983 to have two E's in his forename and not score points (Derek Wariwck, Michele Alboreto, Eddie Cheever, Rene Arnoux and Keke Rosberg are the others)

Yeah.

girry · Post by **girry** » 21 Nov 2015, 12:50

Montoya wasn't near to be a champion? He was pretty damn near in 2003. In fact he would only have lost because of a broken engine at Suzuka if not for Barrichello turning into JPM and getting Montoya a penalty for that.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 21 Nov 2015, 16:20

Massa and Montoya are the most difficult for me to compare, because I grew up watching both and they're both really talented but not flawless. Although my heart says Massa, I'd go with Montoya because he did so much to shove a car which wasn't necessarily the fastest into great positions, had to deal with much worse reliability when competing for the championship, and imo was competing against stronger opponents 2002-2005 than Massa was 2006-2008.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 21 Nov 2015, 18:44

Regarding the Massa starting before Montoya, I realised that when I was in bed this morning. For someone whose favourite racing game is F1C, it's a really bad mistake to make.... I kind of wanted to edit the post anyway to do an actual comparison, so it isn't that bad. Now that I realise that fact was completely wrong, I might change the decision. Or not, we'll see in a few minutes.

Edit: Massa still won

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 21 Nov 2015, 20:07

How can Massa still be better stats-wise after spending 4 years being an ineffectual number 2?

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 21 Nov 2015, 21:41

Salamander wrote:How can Massa still be better stats-wise after spending 4 years being an ineffectual number 2?

It's a much closer version of Fittipaldi and Ascari: Massa did what Montoya did and added on a little bit.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 21 Nov 2015, 21:52

First round, part 2
The right-hand bracket of round 1.

Alain Prost - Jochen Rindt
This isn't fair to Rindt. He deserves better than seed 63. But yeah, even taking into account Prost having over three times as many races, he wins the battle easily.

Stirling Moss - Jacques Laffite
"Who the bathplug is Bill Moss?", I said looking at the autocomplete. So comparing Moss and Laffite, that sounds possible. Moss-Laffite: wins 16-6, podiums 23-32, f1metrics titles 4-0. But Moss did those positions with many fewer races, of course. Laffite may be good at winning virtual championships, but that doesn't help here. This looked like it would be hard, but it's Moss easily.

Jack Brabham - John Watson
Brabham has a powerful advantage when comparing people: "only won because of the car" arguments that would hurt anyone else don't work on him for a whole championship. In a statistical battle, and a normal battle, Brabham wins.

Niki Lauda - Michele Alboreto
Er... Alboreto competed in one more season. So he's got that going for him?

Sebastian Vettel - Thierry Boutsen
They're actually almost equal on rounds contested, 163-157 with Boutsen having more. Vettel first: wins 42-3, podiums 79-15, titles 4-0, deserved titles oh God not the is Vettel deserving thing again. Vettel wins.

Mark Webber - Dan Gurney
Gurney has a slight advantage on wins and podiums/GP, but it's worth looking for something else. Webber has three third places in the championship, Gurney's highest being two 4ths. They both have seven top 10s. Whenever I think of something deeper, I'm held back by a lack of knowledge regarding how good Gurney's cars were and such. I'm just going to defer to that f1metrics page (sorry if that name's getting incessant, I like the place) and give it to Gurney, with minimal understanding as to why besides apparently better teammate comparisons.

David Coulthard - Phil Hill
How does one of these guys get in the last 32? Average wins and podiums doesn't help, but Hill's slightly ahead. Championship-wise, of course, Hill has one and Coulthard doesn't, but Coulthard has five podium finishes. But Hill's title feels like one big fluke, whereas Coulthard... got beaten by Häkkinen a lot, I guess. If Hill's title wasn't so by default, he'd win, but he'd look a lot worse if that was a 2nd instead of a 1st. In slight defiance of the raw stats, I'm giving it to Coulthard.

Bruce McLaren - Ronnie Peterson
They did share a season, I guess, but that won't have any effect here. Peterson has wins/GP, McLaren taking podiums. McLaren sort of feels like a worse Brabham, making his own team but not winning a championship. In fact, he is, looking at his highest overall finish in 1960. Peterson has a similar thing in 1978. 1971 is attractive, though, best of the rest with the team that ultimately placed fourth. I don't feel like detailing the rest, but comparing their three overall podiums each, Peterson is probably a little bit better. There's definitely room for argument, but Peterson advances.

Fernando Alonso - Elio de Angelis
Alonso is a legend. de Angelis is... well, most people would call someone crazy for saying their big inspiring hero was de Angelis, I wouldn't. That said, if you can find something de Angelis was better at, tell me.

Damon Hill - Jody Scheckter
Hill's wins/GP? Twice as good. Podiums? A bit better. Championships? Equal, but Hill's title was totally betterer than Scheckter's. Well, a bit better, maybe. Near-championships? It's close in pretty much every stat, but they all favour Hill.

Jenson Button - Heinz-Harald Frentzen
Button got a championship in a dominant car by beating a guy already known for having lost championships in a dominant car. Frentzen didn't get one, but put in a worthy performance in 1999. Although maybe if Häkkinen wasn't so spinny in the first place, it wouldn't be as tragic.... But the stats don't care about any of that, though. Button wins more often, top 3s more often, top 5s more often, and is the one with the title. Frentzen may be underrated, but he doesn't beat Button, especially in a stats battle.

Jim Clark - Eddie Irvine
Oh gee, this is a tough one. A contender for greatest racing driver in any category ever versus a guy who only won his championship by default except he didn't even win it. The numbers and anyone who hasn't had head trauma agree: why are we wasting our time with this.

Kimi Räikkönen - Keke Rosberg
They both barely won their championships, but Räikkönen is the clear winner. He had way more years where he won races, and he has twice as many wins/GP anyway. Everything moderately goes his way.

Nico Rosberg - Jacky Ickx
Wins/GP: .07-.07. Podiums: .22-.21 in favour of Rosberg. Champion? No-no. Reasonably close to champion? Well, they have their two runner-up places, but Ickx never actually came close, and Rosberg was much closer but clearly beaten. I'm going to give it to Rosberg, not for any good reason from poring through the tables, but just because he isn't done yet. If end of 2015 Rosberg shows up in 2016 and he gets his championship, it's a clear victory, and if not, he's still going to increase his win rate.

Graham Hill - Jarno Trulli
Wins: 14-1 Hill. Podiums: 36-11. Titles: 2-0. And Graham Hill did all that with fewer races and more danger.

Denny Hulme - Mike Hawthorn
They're the same on wins/GP, Hawthorn ahead on podiums. Neither of them actually drove the best in their championship. Neither of them skewed their stats down by spending a bunch of time with non-frontrunning teams. Hulme's title feels kind of better to me even though it probably wasn't, and he was noticeable in more seasons. I think Hulme has better teammate comparisons too. A fairly better podium rate isn't enough compared to that, so I'm giving it to Hulme.

And that's the end of round 1. Alesi, Coulthard, Gurney, Massa, Moss, Peterson, Reutemann, and Rosberg are the remaining non-champions.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 21 Nov 2015, 22:17

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:de Angelis is... well, most people would call someone crazy for saying their big inspiring hero was de Angelis, I wouldn't.

Are you calling Jean Alesi crazy?

Alesi's helmet design was a tribute to de Angelis. I'm not sure if he held Elio in such high regard for him to be considered heroic but there was certainly some respect.

Also, I'm not sure I'd call Phil Hill's championship a fluke. Yes, von Trips' accident gave him the title by default, but it's not as though he was being soundly beaten by him all year. Hill definitely held the upper hand in qualifying, taking pole in five consecutive rounds, while von Trips didn't have a pole position until Monza. The points gap wasn't huge either.

Peteroli34 · Post by **Peteroli34** » 22 Nov 2015, 00:09

Both Ayrton Senna and David Coulthard have started the same amount of races from 3rd place on the grid. both having started from that place in 31 races. only Michael Schumacher has started from 3rd place on more occasions doing so 53 times

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 22 Nov 2015, 02:34

Strange, isn't it, that Damon Hill should be up against Jody Scheckter: both had their championship defence seasons marmalised by a trainwreck of a car, though one changed teams not through any choice of his and was sold a lie, whereas the other could have expected a robust defence from staying put... and was handed the Ferrari 312T5. Yeah, cheers, Enzo...

I'd have picked Jacky Ickx over Nico Rosberg. Before this escalates into the kind of screeching argument that is more suited to other parts of the internet, consider this: their stats in wins-and-podiums-per-GP might be about equal, and Nico might not have finished his career yet, but right now, Jacky Ickx has six Le Mans victories and Britney has none. The other Nico, of course...

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 22 Nov 2015, 05:02

dinizintheoven wrote:I'd have picked Jacky Ickx over Nico Rosberg. Before this escalates into the kind of screeching argument that is more suited to other parts of the internet, consider this: their stats in wins-and-podiums-per-GP might be about equal, and Nico might not have finished his career yet, but right now, Jacky Ickx has six Le Mans victories and Britney has none. The other Nico, of course...

I completely agree with that. If this was about racing in general, I would've given it to Ickx, but only F1 counts.

Post by **tommykl** » 22 Nov 2015, 19:06

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:I'd have picked Jacky Ickx over Nico Rosberg. Before this escalates into the kind of screeching argument that is more suited to other parts of the internet, consider this: their stats in wins-and-podiums-per-GP might be about equal, and Nico might not have finished his career yet, but right now, Jacky Ickx has six Le Mans victories and Britney has none. The other Nico, of course...

I completely agree with that. If this was about racing in general, I would've given it to Ickx, but only F1 counts.

I also think it's unfair to say the Ickx was never close to being champion, not only because a) he never had the outright best car, but also because b) 1970? Or, more competitively, was three points behind Graham Hill with 3 rounds left in 1968.

girry · Post by **girry** » 22 Nov 2015, 19:42

It's sad how Phil Hill always gets a bit undersold because of von Trips' death and the dominant car they had. Even without the tragic Monza incident, Phil likely would have taken the title anyway - and, really, his performances were nothing to be ashamed of during his other F1 efforts, either.

(Not to mention that he was a really great sports car driver too, to add to his F1 successes...)

ed - as tommykl had already said, should have read the thread