17 years on, it starts up again...

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 20 May 2016, 16:49

CoopsII i've finally figured it out!

Max must have liked the look of Flavio in that maniki and that why he was so intent on trying to bathplug Flavio all the time. :lol:

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 20 May 2016, 19:08

ibsey wrote:CoopsII i've finally figured it out!

Max must have liked the look of Flavio in that maniki and that why he was so intent on trying to bathplug Flavio all the time.

Well, he's only human. Who couldn't resist this...?

I may not be around for a while because Biscione is about to ban me...

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 20 May 2016, 19:53

I can imagine Max introducing his friends to Flavio like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8kPqAV_74M

Wait a minute isn't Bernie that height?

Row Man Gross-Gene · Post by **Row Man Gross-Gene** » 20 May 2016, 20:23

CoopsII wrote:
ibsey wrote:CoopsII i've finally figured it out!

Max must have liked the look of Flavio in that maniki and that why he was so intent on trying to bathplug Flavio all the time.

Well, he's only human. Who couldn't resist this...?

I may not be around for a while because Biscione is about to ban me...

You are a cruel, cruel man Coops.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 20 May 2016, 20:27

Before now I had only heard of the incident of Flavio and the mankini. And now I've seen it. I feel like I'll look back at my life as the time before seeing the picture, and the time after...

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 20 May 2016, 20:48

And I thought I'd seen the worst when Coops posted that horse's member a while back...

lance_rambert · Post by **lance_rambert** » 20 May 2016, 21:03

Yep, that Flavio picture is still just as horrifying as it was when I ran into it the first time. What the hell...

Post by **Nuppiz** » 20 May 2016, 21:31

I had only seen a black-and-white photo of Briatore's mankini before. I've also had to go through some surgery to both eyes in the past 10 months.

Thanks to you, now I need to book another appointment to the eye surgeon.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 20 May 2016, 22:55

CoopsII wrote:
ibsey wrote:CoopsII i've finally figured it out!

Max must have liked the look of Flavio in that maniki and that why he was so intent on trying to bathplug Flavio all the time.

Well, he's only human. Who couldn't resist this...?

I may not be around for a while because Biscione is about to ban me...

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 21 May 2016, 04:13

Flavio's milkshake brings max to the yard :lol:

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 21 May 2016, 06:27

Well, thanks to people quoting my post at least now he'll have to ban three of us :deletraz:

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 23 May 2016, 11:38

Bit bored at work today and came across the following;

Pat Symmonds;

But Ayrton’s death stopped us all in our tracks. Engineers are quite pragmatic, and the shock soon turned into frustration at some of the knee-jerk reaction of the rule-makers. The FIA had to be seen to be doing something, but there were many unintended consequences which made the cars more dificult to drive. We had to cut back on diffusers and then the dreaded plank came along, which spoiled our beautiful 1994 car.
Rather than making things safer, it actually increased the likelihood of having an accident, although when you had that accident you might be going a little slower.

“Two races after Imola came Barcelona, and they put in this peculiar chicane. The teams were up in arms, and several of them boycotted first practice. Flavio, who always wanted to be the centre of attention, turned it into a personal battle with the FIA president. He said, ‘You won’t be hearing anything more about Max Mosley. Mosley is inished.’ He didn’t just say it to us, he said it to the world. That’s one of those things, even if you think it, you don’t say it.

“I don’t know if that had any bearing on the ensuing accusations against Benetton about traction control. In our software we’d got rid of all the stuff that was no longer allowed under the new passive rules, but the basics were still there to work the gearbox and so on. When the FIA inspected our software they found the menus were still there for engaging launch control, but if you selected them they didn’t do anything. It was obvious, as the FIA inspector conceded, that nothing was being used. Nevertheless we were castigated.”

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archi ... at-symonds

Ross Brawn;

“In sports car racing, strategy was a key part of things, but in F1 it was only just getting started then. When I returned to F1 I was amazed how poorly some of the teams used the pit stops to work for them strategically. In 1994 we were often able to beat Williams through simple strategic moves. The fuel rigs were much slower then. We knew we could stay with them carrying 10 more kilos of fuel, and we’d stop at the same time as them but we’d have more fuel left so we could put less in. So our pit stop would be a couple of seconds quicker than theirs and we’d come out in front. All sorts of accusations went flying around, and our fuel cells were stripped three or four times that season. But the calculations were quite simple. It was just something we were more familiar with, because of sports car racing.

“Clever moves can lead to protests, and I got a bit of a reputation, unfortunately. The one I feel aggrieved about was Imola 1994, the traction control issue. The rest you can argue were all about interpretation of regulations and so on, but in 1994 we were simply accused of cheating. The FIA had our ECUs [electronic control units] examined by an outside firm, who found some redundant features that referred back to 1993. All the race data from Imola was available, and it showed no sign of traction control or launch control being used. The menu didn’t have those options on it, so although they still existed in the software they could not be activated. All the FIA said was, ‘We agree it wasn’t being used, but it was there.’

“It was all ensnared in the huge political row going on between Max Mosley and Flavio and Tom, who’d written a letter to the FIA saying Max wasn’t fit to be president. Then Flavio said to Rory and me, ‘We’re going to concede this one, because all Max is going to do is take away our points from Imola.’ And I said, ‘If you do that deal I will walk out the door, and so will Rory, because we haven’t done anything wrong. You won’t have a technical director or a chief designer.’ So he had to go back to Max and say, ‘We’ll fight the case, because my guys won’t accept a deal.’

“That was the tragedy of traction control: it was like drugs in athletics. Whichever team did well, there was always the innuendo that they had some system that couldn’t be detected. All a team principal had to do was have a quiet word in a journalist’s ear: ‘We hear they’ve got traction control…’ Yet when they made traction control legal and everybody started using it again, the same teams were winning, the same teams were losing. So either everybody had it before, or nobody had it before.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archi ... ross-brawn

Given one of the main arguments people use to say Benetton cheated in 1994 is that Briatore was involved in The 2008 Crashgate Incident. So he must be cheating in 1994....

Pat Symmonds on 2008 Crashgate;

Before the race it was suggested to me that we could use a stoppage by Nelson to bring out a safety car to help Fernando. Who did the suggestion come from? Nelson Junior himself. He knew he was hanging on to that drive by the skin of his teeth. Possibly he saw this as a way to improve his position in the team. Anyway, he suggested it – which of course is completely contrary to anything he admitted to when the enquiry came a year later.

“My big mistake was, at that point I should have just said, ‘don’t be silly. No way are we doing that.’ But I didn’t. Under competitive pressure, I suffered from what we were saying Michael occasionally suffered from – a serious error of judgement in the heat of competition – and instead of rejecting the idea, I shared it with others. I wish I’d never done it. But the pressure was immense. I did honestly think that if we didn’t win a race soon there were going to be 500 people out of work. It was gamesmanship that went the wrong side of the rules. But I never expected it to blow up as it did. There are instances in F1 when things as bad, or worse, have gone unpunished.”

In the race, Alonso started with a light fuel load, and pitted to refuel on lap 12. On lap 14 Piquet hit the wall at Turn 17, bringing out the safety car. Alonso made up track position on the front-runners, and once everyone else had made their stops Alonso was on his way to victory. At the time conspiracy theories abounded in the paddock, because for Alonso to have started mid-grid with a light fuel load didn’t seem to make much sense, and Piquet’s accident happening just when it did seemed an extraordinary piece of luck for Alonso. Some of the more perceptive commentators expanded on these theories in print. But then the next race, Japan, took over – and was won fair and square by Alonso. Singapore was all forgotten.

Until August the following year. Piquet’s pace during 2009 had not impressed Briatore, and after his 12th place in Hungary he was replaced by Romain Grosjean. In the acrimony following his dismissal, Piquet told a Brazilian radio reporter that he had been instructed to crash in Singapore by Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds.
The FIA launched an investigation: Briatore issued an instant denial, and instigated legal proceedings against Piquet.

“When I was at school I learned two big lessons. One, if you do something wrong and you get caught, you say, ‘yes, that was me’, and you take your punishment. Two, you don’t welsh on your friends. So I immediately declared my involvement in Piquet’s crash, but – even though Max Mosley tried very hard to persuade me to do so – I didn’t inger anyone else. Suddenly I was on my own.” Days before the FIA held their investigation, Pat resigned from Renault F1; so did Flavio Briatore, although he continued to declare his innocence.
The FIA banned Pat from all FIA-sanctioned motor sport for five years, and banned Briatore for life. Renault was disqualified from F1, suspended for two years. Piquet escaped punishment, in return for co-operating with the investigation. Alonso was exonerated.

“The five-year ban was a big shock to me. It’s no secret that engineers and senior personnel in F1 earn quite a lot of money, so the financial penalty was enormous.” Then Briatore took the FIA’s decision to the French courts, claiming £1.2 million damages. The court decided that the bans were not legal, but only awarded Briatore £12,000 damages, which must have been much less than his costs of going to court.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archi ... at-symonds

Given Motorsport magazine is an extremely creditable source, maybe Flavio isn't quite the villain of Singapore 2008 he is made out to be?

Although I do admit Flavio is guilt of crimes against humanity from wearing dodgy swimwear

As I've now found 3 separate sources which all suggest he successfully appealed against his penalties from the 2008 "crashgate" affair. Also remember Piquet Jr is the son of Piquet Snr - & 'Daddy' wasn't exactly squeaky clean, as he won two of his WDC under controversial circumstances (1981 & 1983).

Frentzen127 · Post by **Frentzen127** » 23 May 2016, 17:08

Can I just say that I see no point in all this yet this (onesided) discussion seems to be going on and on and on and on...

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 23 May 2016, 19:26

Frentzen127 wrote:Can I just say that I see no point in all this yet this (onesided) discussion seems to be going on and on and on and on...

As I said earlier I am trying to uncover the real truth behind 1994. And I am finding it all mind blowing stuff. Since I've also spent alot of my time researching what I have posted here, I also thought fellow F1 fans might appreciate the results of this. If I am mistaken then I won't post here any longer.

Quite a few people not just here but in other forums are strongly of the view that Benetton did cheat in 1994. So I was rather hoping to engage in a debate with them to see if they are aware of something I am not. Thats the whole point of forums is it not?

I am a very disappointed no one is debating with me so I almost feel like a reject of GPrejects...which I guess is an achievement in itself

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 23 May 2016, 19:41

I am really rather interested in what you have researched and uncovered. I have not (yet?) done any research to prove or disprove your argument. A lot of how I feel about that 1994 season comes from media speculation and rumour, plus being a biased Hill/Williams fan. I admire Murray Walker for giving Schumi the benefit of the doubt for the Adelaide incident (he was there and was able to interview the participants personally immediately and years later), but I still have him as the rival of my favourite driver, therefore there is bias. Unfounded bias, so it seems.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 23 May 2016, 19:59

ibsey wrote:
Frentzen127 wrote:Can I just say that I see no point in all this yet this (onesided) discussion seems to be going on and on and on and on...

As I said earlier I am trying to uncover the real truth behind 1994. And I am finding it all mind blowing stuff. Since I've also spent alot of my time researching what I have posted here, I also thought fellow F1 fans might appreciate the results of this. If I am mistaken then I won't post here any longer.

Quite a few people not just here but in other forums are strongly of the view that Benetton did cheat in 1994. So I was rather hoping to engage in a debate with them to see if they are aware of something I am not. Thats the whole point of forums is it not?

I am a very disappointed no one is debating with me so I almost feel like a reject of GPrejects...which I guess is an achievement in itself

I am sorry I have little to contribute, so consider me a bystander in this whole "discussion". I am more interested in the well of information and anecdotes you are posting. Do continue! Perhaps when all is said and done you can write an in-depth article for GP Rejects based on your findings?

Frentzen127 · Post by **Frentzen127** » 23 May 2016, 19:59

I don't think it matters at all whether Benetton cheated or not during 94. If they did, they did it well enough to not get caught (and its safe to say it wasn't the first time nor the last a team has had a liberal interpretation of the rules) so kudos to them. If they didn't, all the more reason for them to celebrate.
As for Schuey and Adelaide, there's not even a sliver of a doubt that he drove into Hill intentionally, and because he got away with it he would try it again a few years later. It didn't work out that time.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 23 May 2016, 21:14

dr-baker wrote:I am really rather interested in what you have researched and uncovered. I have not (yet?) done any research to prove or disprove your argument.

Thanks baker

and I am really glad you are interested in this research. Similarly if you know of any evidence which might disprove anything I have said thus far I will genuinely be delighted to read & consider it. Since this is such an interesting subject always happy to learn something new about this.

Who knows you might even be able to convert me into a Hill fan if you provide a strong enough arguement

Simtek wrote:I am more interested in the well of information and anecdotes you are posting. Do continue! Perhaps when all is said and done you can write an in-depth article for GP Rejects based on your findings?

Thanks also Simtek I am truly touched by your kind words

I won't make any promises about writing an article, since I do have responsibilities these days and time is always limited in fact its past my bedtime now & I've got work tommorrow :facepalm:

Thats the reason why I haven't been posting here as much as I would like in the recent past.

But if I do get the time to write an article, I will let you know immediately. Similarly feel free to copy & paste anything I have written down thus far to use in for anything you need to use it for.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 24 May 2016, 06:58

Frentzen127 wrote:Can I just say that I see no point in all this

Then just sit back and enjoy the picture of Flavio Briatore.

Shall I re-post it?

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 24 May 2016, 10:36

ibsey wrote:
dr-baker wrote:I am really rather interested in what you have researched and uncovered. I have not (yet?) done any research to prove or disprove your argument.

Thanks baker and I am really glad you are interested in this research. Similarly if you know of any evidence which might disprove anything I have said thus far I will genuinely be delighted to read & consider it. Since this is such an interesting subject always happy to learn something new about this.

Who knows you might even be able to convert me into a Hill fan if you provide a strong enough arguement

Simtek wrote:I am more interested in the well of information and anecdotes you are posting. Do continue! Perhaps when all is said and done you can write an in-depth article for GP Rejects based on your findings?

Thanks also Simtek I am truly touched by your kind words

I won't make any promises about writing an article, since I do have responsibilities these days and time is always limited in fact its past my bedtime now & I've got work tommorrow Thats the reason why I haven't been posting here as much as I would like in the recent past.

But if I do get the time to write an article, I will let you know immediately. Similarly feel free to copy & paste anything I have written down thus far to use in for anything you need to use it for.

I will also wade in with a thumbs up - I may not be posting here but I am reading your posts on this thread ibsey and find them a good read!

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 24 May 2016, 14:24

Collieafc wrote:I will also wade in with a thumbs up - I may not be posting here but I am reading your posts on this thread ibsey and find them a good read!

Thanks Mate I really appreciate your comments

girry · Post by **girry** » 24 May 2016, 14:24

re: the 1994 saga, ibsey: you seem to suggest that Verstappen is the only one who publicly accuses the Benetton be illegal - obviously you don't know this but JJ Lehto was a Finnish TV commentator (until his personal incident with the boat..) and whenever the topic of Benetton 1994 arose, he certainly didn't deny the claims that there may have been something going on - a couple of times he, too, subtly claimed that Schumi's machine had a few buttons that worked differently in his car...

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 24 May 2016, 15:49

giraurd wrote:re: the 1994 saga, ibsey: you seem to suggest that Verstappen is the only one who publicly accuses the Benetton be illegal - obviously you don't know this but JJ Lehto was a Finnish TV commentator (until his personal incident with the boat..) and whenever the topic of Benetton 1994 arose, he certainly didn't deny the claims that there may have been something going on - a couple of times he, too, subtly claimed that Schumi's machine had a few buttons that worked differently in his car...

HI giraurd, and thanks for your input

I had heard whispers of JJ Lehto views but it was all "heresay". Firstly am strongly of the opinion that if accusations are to be considered valid, then the person making those accusations has to go on record with those claims. Its a key teaching of journalism that you name your sources.

To give you an idea of what I mean. There were loads of accusations about Senna winning so many poles in 1986. However at Mexico when the Lotus team finally issued a statement saying "we are sick of all these accusations, either someone protest or shut up". Nobody had the balls to protest Lotus & Senna in 1986. So you may have a different view on this, but there is only a 'limited' weight I can attach to Lehto's claims until he makes a direct accusation (on record) and not just subtly claiming as you suggested.

Machett worked on Lehto's car, and his view of JJ is that he never tried hard enough. I've read somewhere also JJ said they same thing, since he was brillant in the junior category in england and though his talent alone would be enough in F1.

There does seem to be an element of 'sour grapes' in his accusations given he was replaced by Verstappen at Canada 1994 & overall treated rather poorly by Flavio. IIRC there was a post on here a few years ago that stated Flavio forced him to race at certain times in 1994, despite JJ back not being in the best condition after his preseason accident. Then we have to consider how much was JJ hampered by his back injury?

Could the above factors explain the difference between Lehto & Schumi?

Also if there were more button on M Schumi's steering wheel then has anyone ever produced a photo & video from onboard footage etc? The Mclaren 3rd brake pedal didn't stay secret for very long in 1997, and that surely would be much harder to find.

In the interests of fairness Senna also claimed illegal TC/LC at Aida on the B194. But remember anytime Senna was beaten he always believed that other person was cheating and that he (Senna) had a god given right to win. A classic example is a quote from the maker of the Senna v Brundle 1983 film;

"It was interesting for me to discover that Ayrton was the same man in 1983 that he was when we watched those epic battles on the TV. Indeed, the similarities even go as far as a series of disputes with the British F3 officials that are eerily alike those infamous disagreements with the FIA and Jean-Marie Balestre."

http://www.autosport...0761.1461486849

When David Leslie beat Senna to a pole in 1983. Senna claimed Leslie's car was illegal. When Brundle started beating Senna, Senna then claimed the British authorities were against him. To avoid being controversal I won't mention two other examples from Senna. My point being how much substance should be attribute to Senna's claims from Aida 1994 when he has this history?

I remember in the Senna film Frank Williams stated that Senna wanted Williams to appeal against Benetton's TC/LC but Frank said they never did. I am 100% Frank/Williams would have if they truly believed the TC/LC rumors. Even in that Hill book, Damon doesn't claim that Benetton had TC/LC & even states examples where M Schumi had a particular bad getaway (i.e. Silverstone/Suzuka 1994). Nor to my knowledge did any other experienced driver like Berger or Brundle claim Benetton had TC/LC as far as I am aware.

So its a question of Senna's/Lehto & Jos' claims v Brawn, Symmonds, Machett, Toet, Briatore & M Schumi. Also look at the quality of the websites/magazine's presenting those claims.

girry · Post by **girry** » 24 May 2016, 17:20

Found this (from 2004) upon quick googling (although my recollections were from the broadcasts, not this interview)

http://www.mtv.fi/sport/f1/uutinen/arti ... ja/3973164

My rough translation, apologies for the ambiguous language but it's ambiguous prior to translation as well:

"The cars had traction control earlier, but it no longer was permitted in 1994. You know, when you have something allowed and you suddenly ban it, people try to take advantage of that, as long as they don't get caught. I don't doubt for a second that there was something. Probably there were many experiments going on. Benetton was hardly the only team, other teams must have had cracks at it too. At that time, covering electronics was easier than today."

Anyhow, Schumacher's car had different functions to Järvilehto's car.

"There were odd things going on sometimes. A few buttons, that were pushed in a completely different order in the team-mate's car. Difficult to be certain about what that meant"

Järvilehto, however, accentuates that he has no solid proof to present about the possible irregularities of Schumacher's car.

"They will be difficult to ever prove. It could very well be that there never were any."

@ibsey: yes, JJ certainly does have some sour grapes about Briatore - he certainly was rushed into the car WAY too soon and was never really given a fair chance by Flavio (to his own words wasn't in a shape for a year after the crash), so questioning his integrity is fair enough. However, it seems implausible to me that both Verstappen and Lehto would have come up with similar, completely false statements about Schumacher's car being way different to theirs - there must have been at least something to go with it.

Re the claims made by Benetton's own people that their car is legal - well, duh, obviously they're gonna claim that (and yes, obviously Senna's, or any other driver's opinion about the Benetton is completely devoid of weight as well - they haven't driven the car). Bet you won't find a champion team who will admit their car was illegal, yet I similarly bet more than half the winning cars in the history of the sport have been in at least some way illegal to the rulebook but passed the check -- and passing the check is always gonna be what they all really try to do, instead of being legal. So, since those results were deemed valid back then by a supposedly impartial FIA - regardless of what they find from the car now, in my books MSC remains the 1994 champ anyway.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 24 May 2016, 18:30

Thanks for that article giraurd

and I certainly hold more weight to Lehto claims now given he has stated it 'on record'.

giraurd wrote:However, it seems implausible to me that both Verstappen and Lehto would have come up with similar, completely false statements about Schumacher's car being way different to theirs - there must have been at least something to go with it.

That is a fair comment but it raises the question were those extra buttons (if they did exist) connected to something illegal as well?

I've already posted Toet article about the legal TC. So assuming what JJ & Jos is correct I'm wondering maybe M Schumi was able to cope with driving with that Toet TC system whereas Benetton felt an injured Lehto or raw Verstappen couldn't? In the below article Toet explains how M Schumi had 'spare mental capcity than most drivers when he operated on the limit' and that might explain some things?

I'm also wondering if those extra buttons (again assuming they did exist) where to operate the speedometers that Toet explains or something like that. I know Machett also explained that M Schumi also like to keep a Casio watch on his steering wheel in 1993 to time certain sections of the track. And I don't know if that was also on Patreses car?

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/driving- ... eader-card

Also worth noting when Herbert sat in the B194, a car unfamilar to Johnny on average he qualified around 1 second slower than M Schumi. That is what I would have expected and too me that suggests the two cars were the same spec etc. Too show you what I mean in the 1st two races of 1995 Herbert qualified on average 1.65 seconds behind M Schumi.

giraurd wrote:Re the claims made by Benetton's own people that their car is legal - well, duh, obviously they're gonna claim

Yes they are. But whats really interesting to me is Brawn, Machett, Toet all haven't worked for Benetton since 1997 and are still claiming Benetton didn't use illegal TC/LC. Everything I read about these guys suggest they are as honest as they come, so I can't see it in their character to lie for nearly 20 about this. Also Symmonds & Briatore haven't worked for the team since 2009 and have not shy away from talking about Crashgate. Also consider no other experienced F1 driver at the time like Berger or Brundle whom have no biased on the matter have said they felt the B194 was illegal. They would have known better than most.

giraurd wrote:Bet you won't find a champion team who will admit their car was illegal,

Actually Bernie Ecclestone once said "we were the masters of cheating and we never got caught" about his time at Brabham when he won the 81 & 83 WDC. Was it Chapman or Lotus that admitted to breaking into the Williams garage and copying the design of the 1980 car at the Dutch GP?

Not a champion team but IIRC Robin Herd admitted swinging the pit board over the timing beam to register a quicker time for his driver. And I remember Derek Daly admiting to cutting the track at Dijion 1982, which was the reason he outqualified his WDC winning team mate Rosberg. These are just the examples I can think off the top of my head & in F1.

Even considering Lehto's claims, it still seems that if Benetton did cheat in 1994 that is quite some cover up by the FIA/LDRA/Benetton/Ford/Elf/Goodyear/Intertechique etc. Just think how many employees are involved in that group of companies, thousands certainly. None of them have cashed their story into to a newspaper or written a book on how Benetton cheated....

...I certainly would of :lol:

Frentzen127 · Post by **Frentzen127** » 24 May 2016, 18:35

Cherry picking is a thing.

Post by **mario** » 24 May 2016, 19:38

giraurd wrote:@ibsey: yes, JJ certainly does have some sour grapes about Briatore - he certainly was rushed into the car WAY too soon and was never really given a fair chance by Flavio (to his own words wasn't in a shape for a year after the crash), so questioning his integrity is fair enough. However, it seems implausible to me that both Verstappen and Lehto would have come up with similar, completely false statements about Schumacher's car being way different to theirs - there must have been at least something to go with it.

It has to be noted that Verstappen openly stated that he had absolutely no evidence for his claims - it was based purely on his experience of driving Schumacher's car, which he borrowed after a fault on his own car, on one occasion during one practise session.

In fact, if I recall the long form version of that interview correctly, Verstappen essentially assumed that Schumacher was cheating because he had beaten Schumacher in junior series - so, when the situation reversed when at Benetton, combined with the fact that he couldn't cope with the handling balance of Schumacher's car, he seems to have assumed that it couldn't be on merit and that Schumacher had to have been given some sort of advantage in order to beat him.

Given that Verstappen never made any claims or offered any evidence that there was any outward difference in the mechanical or electronic set up of the cars, I would say that it only provides tentative support, at best, for Lehto's statement.

ibsey wrote:Actually Bernie Ecclestone once said "we were the masters of cheating and we never got caught" about his time at Brabham when he won the 81 & 83 WDC. Was it Chapman or Lotus that admitted to breaking into the Williams garage and copying the design of the 1980 car at the Dutch GP?

The story was that Chapman told one of his mechanics to measure the suspension geometry of Williams's car during a practise session - it seems that the mechanic initially thought that Chapman was joking, but realised that he was serious when Chapman threatened to sack him on the spot if he didn't do it.

At the time, Jones's car had been pushed to one side in the pit lane because he'd broken down whilst on track, so it was partially hidden from view. The mechanic therefore succeeded in measuring the rear suspension without being noticed, only for Chapman to complain "Why didn't you bloody well measure the front as well?" when he returned.

Having gone back out, he was then caught by Jones and some of the Williams mechanics when they unexpectedly returned to pick the car up and repair it. Supposedly, at the next race Jones went to that mechanic and, in front of the entire Lotus team, gave him a builders rule - with the words "You can use this - but don't let us catch you using this again" apparently written on it in Jones's handwriting.

girry · Post by **girry** » 24 May 2016, 20:14

ibsey wrote:Also consider no other experienced F1 driver at the time like Berger or Brundle whom have no biased on the matter have said they felt the B194 was illegal. They would have known better than most.

I for one do not hold any value to what the drivers or other people who have not driven the car *think* - they can only rely on what they see on track. Nor do I hold any value to the opinions of the fans who viewed youtube videos for 4 years trying to determine if a Red Bull wing is *too* flexible or not. They're external, you've got to focus on the opinions of those who work "inside". Those who have flicked the switches, measured the components by a millimetre stick.

Actually Bernie Ecclestone once said "we were the masters of cheating and we never got caught" about his time at Brabham when he won the 81 & 83 WDC. Was it Chapman or Lotus that admitted to breaking into the Williams garage and copying the design of the 1980 car at the Dutch GP?

Not a champion team but IIRC Robin Herd admitted swinging the pit board over the timing beam to register a quicker time for his driver. And I remember Derek Daly admiting to cutting the track at Dijion 1982, which was the reason he outqualified his WDC winning team mate Rosberg. These are just the examples I can think off the top of my head & in F1.

...Fair enough, lol - even if out of these examples the only one who admits that their car was illegal, is Bernie...

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 24 May 2016, 20:15

Thanks for the additional detail Mario. Much appreciated

Not sure if you are aware of the below article on the Chapman/Williams affair written by the dauagter of Peter Collins no less.

http://www.allinsport.ch/history/instant-notoriety/

An amusing read if you have the time.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 24 May 2016, 20:34

giraurd wrote:I for one do not hold any value to what the drivers or other people who have not driven the car *think* - they can only rely on what they see on track.

Certainly I agree drivers along with people who worked with the car views should come first. However don't be so eager to dismiss outsiders views;

Whiting’s ear was tuned to the distinctive popping sound of engine cylinders being cut, which might indicate the presence of the recently-banned traction control. And one car in particular captured his attention as he looked and listened.

Suzuki wasn’t the only substitute driver who had been pressed into action as early as round two. Ferrari’s Jean Alesi had injured his neck in a testing crash at Mugello and Nicola Larini performed his role as stand-in once more, returning to the fray for Ferrari for the first time in two years.

But Larini did not endear himself to his team when, speaking to Italian media ahead of the race, he spectacularly spilled the beans on the very technical trickery Whiting was looking out for. After Larini let it slip Ferrari were running a form of the banned traction control his team quickly issued a denial.

After the ban on driver aids had been announced at the end of 1993 several team bosses had claimed the FIA was incapable of policing it, and here was proof of their claims. Ferrari team principal Jean Todt insisted they had obtained permission from Whiting to run a ‘variable rev limiter’, but once the FIA interjected Ferrari were required to remove the device.

“It came to the notice of the FIA technical delegate that during the free practice sessions on Saturday car numbers 27 and 28 were fitted with a device which in certain circumstances limited the power of the engine,” said the FIA in a statement ahead of the race.

“As the FIA technical delegate was not satisfied that the decide complied in all respects with the regulations, Ferrari were advised not to use it. This advice was complied with.” But Mosley’s pre-season promise of “Draconian penalties” for anyone caught breaking the driver aids ban now rang hollow.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/04/15/s ... row-brews/

In the interests of fairness I will also mention Senna famously stood by the Aida track and claimed the Benetton was using TC. And he was right on that front, what Senna didn't realise of course that it was legal (according to Toet).

Post by **tommykl** » 24 May 2016, 22:54

ibsey wrote:Not a champion team but IIRC Robin Herd admitted swinging the pit board over the timing beam to register a quicker time for his driver. And I remember Derek Daly admiting to cutting the track at Dijion 1982, which was the reason he outqualified his WDC winning team mate Rosberg. These are just the examples I can think off the top of my head & in F1.

Can't speak about any of the other stories mentioned in this thread, but I can confirm those two, as well as a precision.

The first story can be pinpointed to the 1975 Swedish Grand Prix, where this specific technique was used to net pole position for Vittorio Brambilla. As far as I'm aware, they only discovered that it could be done at that weekend, and soon after, they were found out. Brambilla's pole was allowed to stand, but they were given a stern talking to, and they promised not to do it again.

As for Daly, he didn't exactly cheat. He had a spin around halfway through the circuit, and realised that the escape road led further up the circuit. He finished the lap, fully expecting it to be canceled, but no one noticed! This is quite a similar story to Harry Schell cutting the track at Sebring in 1959 and winding up third on the grid as a result.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 25 May 2016, 04:58

worth noting that Senna admitted to Suzuka 1990 a year afterwards. Maybe i'm naive but i like to think in most case the truth comes out. That why i'm so suprised more former employees of Benetton/Ford etc haven't come forward to support the cheat allegations.

Bletchley Park was called the UK's biggest secret weapon of WW2 and George Welchman (a very senior employee at Bletchley) evenually released a book about what when on there. Even though the UK & US secret services tried to stop the relase of that book.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 25 May 2016, 07:13

@ Mario I hope you don't mind, but I requoted your comments on Verstappen in an Autosport forum thread where I am also having this very discussion. I only reposted them because I agree wholeheartly with what you have said and I thought it important more people should at the very least consider your comments.

This is the forum in question in case you are interested;

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/19712 ... ed/page-12

In it I've also said also IIRC that ONE occasion Verstappen drove M Schumi car was at Hockenhiem, where M Schumi was running virtually NO rear wing (just watch a video of the race and compare his wing to that of Berger's when they are battling in the early laps of the race). That was probably the 1st ever time in his career Jos had to drive the car with that kind of setup. Remember also Hockenhiem was the first race that the teams had to run the plank, and this is what Symmonds said;

Quote
We had to cut back on diffusers and then the dreaded plank came along, which spoiled our beautiful 1994 car.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archi ... at-symonds

According to Mansell In Brazil 1992 Patrese was convinced there were some extra gizmo's in Nigel's car which explained the time gaps between the two teammates. So Mansell thought 'I'm not having this all year' and let Patrese have a go in his car for a practice session. After which Patrese admitted the two cars were equal. Also Patrese was outqualified by Mansell by some quite bit margins in 1992 (2 seconds at Silverstone was it?). And Riccardo was a highly experience driver, a multiple race winner, and loved working with the Williams team. Which is all the EXACT opposite of Jos' position in 1994. Also I think few would argue that Mansell was as good as M Schumi.

Jos's comments sound like 'sour grapes to me' and an inability to accept he simply wasn't in the same league as M Schumi. If Jos had occasionally beat M Schumi at some point in his 9 year F1 career then maybe I would attach more weight to his claims but he didn't. FACT.

Also worth remembering Jos was arrested over attempted murder only 5 weeks after he made the claims about the B194.

http://www.crash.net...ted-murder.html

That article states;

The Dutchman has a history of such accusations, having been found guilty of assault on his ex-wife in 2008 and of GBH following a fight with rival kart circuit customers in 2000. He did not serve a jail term in either case, but may do following the latest incident, in which De Standaard reports claim that he struck a 24-year old ex-girlfriend with his car, leaving her with 'heavy bruises and abrasions', before fleeing the scene.

So that the kind of character who is making the claims some people seem to be so readily to accept as conclusive proof.

Yes M Schumi & Briatore were naughty on occasions. But nothing, I repeat nothing they ever have done comes even remotely close to what has been found Jos' guilty of.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 25 May 2016, 08:03

Hi tommyk and thanks for your additional detail

Always love reading these kind of stories.

tommykl wrote:As for Daly, he didn't exactly cheat.

Can I respectful disagree with this. I'll quote Derek Daly and the bit in bold is why I personally think Daly did cheat...

"Keke Rosberg was lighting fast and particularly good in qualifying, and there were unusual circumstances surrounding the only time I started ahead of him on the grid that year.

Halfway through the final qualifying session, I tried my car with front wings fitted. I was about four seconds behind John Watson's Mclaren around the back of the circuit when I missed my braking point for the downhill section. No problem, I simply went down the espace road and rejoined the track, completely by passing the downhill section. Before I rejoined, however I waited waited for Watson to pass and then set off on another lap. So I was only about two seconds behind him when I flashed past the timing beam - to record the fastest lap set by a Williams that weekend.

When I stopped, I was just about to tell the team what happened, when Charlie Crichton-Stuart began congratulating me for the lap and said that Frank Williams had sent orders to put the front wings on Keke's car for his race set-up. I suddenly thought 'Maybe they don't know about the mistake - and just maybe I should keep quiet about it'. Keke didn't know why he was beaten that weekend and was furious but, all these years later, he now sees the funny side.

Despite the fact that I didn't actually do that laptime, I still thought that, with the front wings fitted, the car would be faster in the race. Keke therefore had enough downforce in the race to hound and eventually pass the Renaults late in the race, and go onto his only win of the season. I like to think my inadvertently devious lap actually helped him in the long run."

Source; Motorsport Magazine article circa April 2002

Having said all the above I do acknowledge Daly didn't set out that day to cheat.Simply he was 'economical' with the truth to help gain an advantage. Which I am probably also guilty of at some point in my life, particularly when trying to 'woo' a ladyfriend whilst under the influence

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 25 May 2016, 10:25

Oh dear Verstappens claims of illegal TC on the B194 seems to be on even shakier ground now. :lol:

http://www.grandprix...ft/ft00225.html

Note that interview was conducted in 1996 when his memory would have been much fresher about 1994 than in 2011 and Jos was no longer under contract to Benetton. So Jos would have been free to make what ever claims he wanted to about the B194. Yet despite here is a selection of quotes;

but it still rankles that he was dropped by Benetton before the end of the 1994 season.

So Jos’ admits he had a grudge against Benetton before he made those TC claims. Also remember in 2011 Jos was in troubled times and may have needed the money /publicity his claims would have undoubtedly generated.

but the car was too nervous for me. I cannot handle that style of car."
Q: Was it the same problem which Johnny Herbert complained about last year?
JV: "Absolutely. I must have a little the same driving style as Johnny because he said basically the same things about that car that I did and seems to have had the same feelings. It was a very difficult car. You could not feel the limit and so you were pushing and pushing and then suddenly it would have oversteer. Normally when you get oversteer you can control it but the Benetton would go very suddenly and so you ended up having a spin. I had big problems with that car.

M Schumi was well know to like a pointy front end in all his F1 cars. Which all his teammates struggled with. Note again how Jos isn't actually accusing M Schumi's B194 of having illegal TC/LC devices. Also there is that video showing the telementary Data from Silverstone 1995 which showed how M Schumi's throttle input was significantly. I repeat significantly different from Herbert's (and therefore Jos' as he claims above). Toet also commented how well M Schumi could drive cars without TC before 1993.

JV: "Yeah. Maybe it is good to be in a smaller team to build up a bit more experience. I don't know. I don't know if it was too early for me to race for Benetton. You have to remember that when I signed for the team I wasn't supposed to race. I was the test driver. Having said that, I think that if I had had a good car in 1994 I could have proved what I was worth. The B194 was a good car for Schumacher - but it wasn't a good car for me."

So its VERY unlikely Jos’ driving style would not have been a factor when designing the B194. The bit in bold explains why he just had to cope with what he was given. I'm not denying Jos got 2nd treatment within the team, but based on all the evidence I've posted here thus far I strongly believe both drivers B194 were of the same spec.

I also remember Jos saying in a later interview he did his career back to front of how he should have done it. As he started off in a top team under pressure and ended his career in the worst car on the grid. And in that interview he admitted that was a big mistake and he has regrets over his career.

The evidence seems very clear to me. Thank you Jos for clearing this up.

girry · Post by **girry** » 25 May 2016, 10:46

Jos was no longer under contract to Benetton in 1996, but his F1 career was barely underway and I bet he had a motive to not piss off Briatore, Brawn, etc who at that time still had power to decide who drives every third car on the grid..

Overnight I also thought that if the head figures at Benetton admitted Senna died whilst battling a car they knew was illegal, the looming possibility of a lawsuit would perhaps still be discouraging them from writing books about 1994...

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 25 May 2016, 11:22

giraurd wrote:Jos was no longer under contract to Benetton in 1996, but his F1 career was barely underway and I bet he had a motive to not piss off Briatore, Brawn, etc who at that time still had power to decide who drives every third car on the grid..

Piquet Jr had no problem after 'Crashgate' 2008 to pull the self destruct button. Senna likewise with Toleman, and actually was suspended from Monza 1984 for breaking the terms of his Toleman contract and signing for Lotus in 1985. Pastor had no problems 'dissing his former employers Williams after he left them. I'm sure there are many other examples if I really think about it.

Jos' made those claims when we was secure for a year with Arrows in 1996. As Joe Steward said in that interview;

This year Jos - who was only recently 24 - is making a strong impression - having finished an impressive sixth at the last race. And now that Arrows has been taken over by the TWR Group Jos is well-placed to take advantage of the increased testing and development which will be available to record some even more impressive results. Verstappen is bouncing back...

I remember that time very well. Jos was setting fastest laps during the early stages of the 1996 Brazilian GP. And drove a great race in Argentina to finish 6th head of IIRC DC in the Mclaren. Jonathan Palmer (BBC commentator) was wetting himself over those performances saying how Jos' was going to be the next big thing in F1.

Given that hype surrounding him when Jos made that interview. I would beg to differ with your view and reckon at the time of the interview Jos' would have been high on any team principle's shopping list. His performances after he made that interview are the reasons why that wasn't the case at the end of 1996.

Remember at the time Todt's (and I'm sure other team principles) felt the B194 was illegal. So actually IMO Jos' claiming he was giving a slower car at Benetton, would helped him secure a driver at those teams who's boss was only to willing to believe the unfounded rumors).

BTW I reckon Brawn's influence on drivers selection at the time would not have been to different to anyone one else in his position at Williams, Ferrari etc. And Hill did just fine not ever driving for Briatore.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 25 May 2016, 11:36

giraurd wrote:Overnight I also thought that if the head figures at Benetton admitted Senna died whilst battling a car they knew was illegal, the looming possibility of a lawsuit would perhaps still be discouraging them from writing books about 1994...

I know this is a common thought. However the widely held believe was that Benetton's refueling rigs were illegal, and LOTS of people claim that's the reason why M Schumi jumped Senna in the pits at Interlagos. As we have also discussed the FIA forced Benetton to admit their guilt on the matter of tampering with refueling rigs.

So bearing that in mind. The official story was Benetton cheated on the refueling rigs & I have already expressed my opinion that Benetton were actually innocent on this matter in reality. Yet no one claimed that as a lawsuit that Senna was racing against a team that were using illegal refueling rigs. Remember Senna was also racing against Ferrari's and Mclarens and both of those cars were found to have illegal devices. Again no-one submitted a lawsuit against that. So I do think that lawsuit theory is completely founded.

P.s. giraurd - I do appreciate you debating with me on this, and please don't take any of my responses as a personal attack on you. Just that we see things differently.

girry · Post by **girry** » 25 May 2016, 17:08

Nah I don't even really disagree with you ibsey, I just intentionally try to provide some contrasting to yours viewpoints/arguments for the sake of the discussion, that's all. Myself I don't have a strong one-sided opinion about the matter myself either (and doubt I will ever have) but it's still, as you say too, a fascinating subject to debate (or read about) anyway.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 25 May 2016, 17:51

@ giraurd. Thanks thats a nice gesture.

If you want to read more about this subject I seem to have ruffled a few feathers down in Autosport land;

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/19712 ... try7550751

I can confirm your lot at GPrejects are alot more logical and reasoned in your arguements. And also you seem to read and understand posts much better.