2016 Großer Preis von Deutschland

Post by **Ataxia** » 28 Jul 2016, 10:04

Race notes:

- Force India seem to be going against the grain a bit with strategy, bringing three sets of mediums to the party.
- Rio Haryanto remains at Manor for Hockenheim despite budgetary issues.
- This is the last race before F1's summer break, where all the staff get two mandatory weeks of rest and relaxation. You just imagined Niki Lauda in Speedos, didn't you?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 28 Jul 2016, 11:08

Ataxia wrote:- This is the last race before F1's summer break, where all the staff get two mandatory weeks of rest and relaxation. You just imagined Niki Lauda in Speedos, didn't you?

I wasn't until you mentioned it.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 28 Jul 2016, 11:34

Ataxia wrote:- Force India seem to be going against the grain a bit with strategy, bringing three sets of mediums to the party.

I hope that this pays off big for them and they win the race. The strategy variances that were promised with the choice has just not happened - most races teams have by and large copied each other.

That said, maybe they are just doing some testing time in the FP sessions?

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 28 Jul 2016, 19:09

http://www.espn.in/f1/story/_/id/171644 ... -radio-ban

This year is turning out to be a graveyard for rule changes.

lance_rambert · Post by **lance_rambert** » 28 Jul 2016, 19:41

Simtek wrote:http://www.espn.in/f1/story/_/id/17164494/f1-relaxes-radio-ban

This year is turning out to be a graveyard for rule changes.

Add another tombstone for the Halo...

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... lo-in-2017

... okay, more like it's stored in the attic.

Fetzie · Post by **Fetzie** » 28 Jul 2016, 20:54

Simtek wrote:http://www.espn.in/f1/story/_/id/17164494/f1-relaxes-radio-ban

This year is turning out to be a graveyard for rule changes.

They really have no idea what they're doing when writing rules, do they?

Spectoremg · Post by **Spectoremg** » 28 Jul 2016, 21:16

Jenson and Nico will find the radio U-turn very heartwarming.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 28 Jul 2016, 22:10

Spectoremg wrote:Jenson and Nico will find the radio U-turn very heartwarming.

But they both still get their penalty points, and in Nico's case, 3 points less. Sound. :facepalm:

Frentzen127 · Post by **Frentzen127** » 29 Jul 2016, 00:15

Ataxia wrote:- Force India seem to be going against the grain a bit with strategy, bringing three sets of mediums to the party.

I read it as their tyre wear woes showing through for all to see. A little make up in the form of "I hope this gamble really pays off" on the side doesn't hurt in any case.

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 29 Jul 2016, 04:11

Interesting to see FI going for a different strategy, will see if it will pay off

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 29 Jul 2016, 07:48

Well, Force India can allow themselves the luxury of gambling. Unless their recent performance indicates a more permanent downturn, Williams is untouchable and Toro Rosso/McLaren are also too far behind and too uncompetitive to be a threat for fifth place. Might as well go for glory.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 29 Jul 2016, 07:53

What's happened at Hockenheim, I think, is quite interesting, particularly if you were involved in the discussion about Monza and Imola swapping. Hockenheim used to be packed out, even before Konig Schumacher ruled with a clenched fist. Then it was decided that those famous long straights weren't safe enough (nonsense) and didn't produce "great racing" and so we were given a castrated version and now the place struggles to break even on ticket sales. We're told we now get "great racing" and it's right in front on the stands and yet despite this and Seb Vettel ruling with an upright finger for some time, Rosberg being a championship competitor again and again and Mercedes dominating we still don't get Hockenheim filling up.

And I think it's because when they abandoned those straights to nature, they abandoned Hockenheims essence and soul to history and ticket buying fans know this and aren't as excited with Nu-Hockenheim and its "great racing" as they were expected to be. Maybe history, memories and character actually have more value than "great racing"?

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 29 Jul 2016, 09:16

Germany *after* Hungary still feels very wrong to me. T'ain't natural, I tells ye!

Post by **mario** » 29 Jul 2016, 09:20

CoopsII wrote:What's happened at Hockenheim, I think, is quite interesting, particularly if you were involved in the discussion about Monza and Imola swapping. Hockenheim used to be packed out, even before Konig Schumacher ruled with a clenched fist. Then it was decided that those famous long straights weren't safe enough (nonsense) and didn't produce "great racing" and so we were given a castrated version and now the place struggles to break even on ticket sales. We're told we now get "great racing" and it's right in front on the stands and yet despite this and Seb Vettel ruling with an upright finger for some time, Rosberg being a championship competitor again and again and Mercedes dominating we still don't get Hockenheim filling up.

And I think it's because when they abandoned those straights to nature, they abandoned Hockenheims essence and soul to history and ticket buying fans know this and aren't as excited with Nu-Hockenheim and its "great racing" as they were expected to be. Maybe history, memories and character actually have more value than "great racing"?

I might be mistaken, but didn't ticket sales actually go up in the period from 2002-2004 (i.e. after the changes to the circuit)? They dipped a bit in 2005 and 2006, but they didn't start declining markedly until after Schmacher retired at the end of 2006 - his return in more recent years did then see sales improve, but after he retired for good the ticket sales went back into decline. That, to me, would seem to suggest that the change in layout wasn't so much of a driving factor, and instead it seems to be the lack of figures who really resonate with the German public that is fuelling the decline.

It is a limited snapshot, but the impression that seem to be given by those who interview the attendees at the circuit is that most of the German drivers in the sport aren't that popular in Germany - Vettel and Rosberg are seen as somewhat remote and aloof (and some don't even think of Rosberg as being that German to begin with, given that Rosberg is officially a German-Finnish dual national and spends most of his time in Monaco), whilst Hulkenberg and Wehrlein have relatively low profiles.

Also, in general motorsport in Germany doesn't seem to be as popular as once it was - although there have been some recent improvements, DTM's ticket sales and viewing figures have been fairly static in recent years, the attempts to create an independent Formula 3 series in Germany in recent years ended up folding due to a lack of entrants and shortfalls in funding and Formula BMW ceased to exist long ago.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 29 Jul 2016, 09:39

I have no numbers to back it up, Mario, but I remember Hockenheim being full to the rafters in the years I watched before Schumacher was in F1, let alone dominating it. There's no doubt MSC put bums on seats, he was to Hockenheim what Mansell was to Silverstone etc, but it cannot be his absence alone that has contributed to Hockenheims decline. Blaming that is like when British Tourism blames the weather.

EDIT - Sorry all, back to this weekend. I thought it was refreshing to see some of the rules being dropped/relaxed. It shows some common sense.

Post by **mario** » 29 Jul 2016, 10:14

CoopsII wrote:I have no numbers to back it up, Mario, but I remember Hockenheim being full to the rafters in the years I watched before Schumacher was in F1, let alone dominating it. There's no doubt MSC put bums on seats, he was to Hockenheim what Mansell was to Silverstone etc, but it cannot be his absence alone that has contributed to Hockenheims decline. Blaming that is like when British Tourism blames the weather.

EDIT - Sorry all, back to this weekend. I thought it was refreshing to see some of the rules being dropped/relaxed. It shows some common sense.

Well, I guess that the one thing that we can perhaps agree on is that Vettel is probably wrong to just blame the engine noise as a single factor, given that the indication is that attendance figures were already declining before the change in engine format came about. I wouldn't say that was the only factor, but the absence of a popular driver has had an impact for some circuits - I know that Spa-Francorchamps has previously cited Boutsen's retirement as a reason for a decline in attendance in the 1990's.

I'd agree that the decision to relax some rules is welcome, and in particular the decision to relax the restrictions on the radio rules. Personally, I was fairly happy with how the radio rules were in the past and saw no need to change them, so I have no objection to reverting back towards a position that is closer to what we used to have.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 29 Jul 2016, 10:28

mario wrote:I know that Spa-Francorchamps has previously cited Boutsen's retirement as a reason for a decline in attendance in the 1990's.

I love that, and I have no idea why I find it a bit funny. I loved mild-mannered Boutsen and he was a great driver but I guess I'd never considered him as a USP like Mansell, MSC or Senna. God bless Belgium.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 29 Jul 2016, 10:33

I'm a bit disappointed that the radio restrictions were removed almost completely, although the situation was getting ridiculous with even serious safety issues being deemed illegal to talk about. Lifting the ban almost entirely will simply mean more messages in the form of "brake into Turn 4 seven meters later" or "drive Sector 2 two tenths faster" which undoubtedly reduces the effect of the driver's own decisions on the overall result.

girry · Post by **girry** » 29 Jul 2016, 10:50

CoopsII wrote:EDIT - Sorry all, back to this weekend. I thought it was refreshing to see some of the rules being dropped/relaxed. It shows some common sense.

Well, common sense is yet to arrive to the track limits enforcement department.

(motorsport.com)

The Strategy Group also discussed putting a stop to track limit penalties, on the basis that it is hard to judge if an advantage has been gained.

Although the teams want this applied immediately, it is understood that the FIA wants more time to properly understand the implications of this before adopting a final stance.

It is possible, however, that a precedent could be set for this weekend's German GP.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 29 Jul 2016, 10:59

If we had a four-metre strip of grass, all debates about track limits would instantly be solved.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 29 Jul 2016, 11:57

mario wrote:I know that Spa-Francorchamps has previously cited Boutsen's retirement as a reason for a decline in attendance in the 1990's.

I was contemplating a funny D'Ambrosio-related remark but I can't think of one. <Joke withdrawn>

Paul Hayes wrote:Germany *after* Hungary still feels very wrong to me. T'ain't natural, I tells ye!

It's like that one year (2007 after looking it up) where Spa-Francorchamps came after Monza. I agree that there is something fundamentally incorrect about doing that.

Post by **mario** » 29 Jul 2016, 16:33

CoopsII wrote:
mario wrote:I know that Spa-Francorchamps has previously cited Boutsen's retirement as a reason for a decline in attendance in the 1990's.

I love that, and I have no idea why I find it a bit funny. I loved mild-mannered Boutsen and he was a great driver but I guess I'd never considered him as a USP like Mansell, MSC or Senna. God bless Belgium.

Admittedly, that is probably down to the fact that, at the time he retired, Boutsen was the only Belgian driver left in the sport at the time...

On another note, it sounds as if Button had a little bit of an ailment in the final practise session - he went to the local hospital in Mannheim after reporting that he had a severely irritated eye. He's now reported that he had a small foreign body removed from his eye and is now OK.

Speaking of McLaren, they do seem to be proving that their form in Hungary was perhaps a sign that they are now beginning to make up some more lost ground, with both drivers managing to make it into the top 10 in both practise sessions. Whether they can sustain that tomorrow is another matter, but so far it does suggest that McLaren have begun to move towards the front of the midfield pack.

Klon wrote:Well, Force India can allow themselves the luxury of gambling. Unless their recent performance indicates a more permanent downturn, Williams is untouchable and Toro Rosso/McLaren are also too far behind and too uncompetitive to be a threat for fifth place. Might as well go for glory.

Williams have tended to be quite poor in Hungary for quite a few years now, as their current design philosophy really doesn't seem to be that efficient in a high downforce configuration. Their car also performs fairly poorly in slower speed corners, not to mention their persistent issues in wet weather (where their lack of mechanical grip shows up very clearly).

Looking at this weekend, Bottas and Massa have both been struggling and have yet to break into the top 10, whereas Force India have managed to do that. I can see Williams failing to score this weekend whilst Force India could potentially leave with a few points (I can see both of their drivers finishing in the lower reaches of the top 10), so I could see the gap closing from the current gap of 20 points to around 10 points after this race. I'd agree that, right now, Toro Rosso and McLaren seem unlikely to catch Force India, but I think that Williams are potentially within reach of Force India.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 29 Jul 2016, 18:22

And just remember how off the pace McLaren still were at the first few races this year! I think most people expected McLaren to improve, but it's been a lot quicker than at least I was expecting.

SuzukiSwift · Post by **SuzukiSwift** » 29 Jul 2016, 18:33

It's a shame Honda can't really do anything about the engine's fundamental design this year. I would say that they would definitely be 4th best if the power was there.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 30 Jul 2016, 07:11

CoopsII wrote:
What's happened at Hockenheim, I think, is quite interesting, particularly if you were involved in the discussion about Monza and Imola swapping. Hockenheim used to be packed out, even before Konig Schumacher ruled with a clenched fist. Then it was decided that those famous long straights weren't safe enough (nonsense) and didn't produce "great racing" and so we were given a castrated version and now the place struggles to break even on ticket sales. We're told we now get "great racing" and it's right in front on the stands and yet despite this and Seb Vettel ruling with an upright finger for some time, Rosberg being a championship competitor again and again and Mercedes dominating we still don't get Hockenheim filling up.

And I think it's because when they abandoned those straights to nature, they abandoned Hockenheims essence and soul to history and ticket buying fans know this and aren't as excited with Nu-Hockenheim and its "great racing" as they were expected to be. Maybe history, memories and character actually have more value than "great racing"?

There are several contributing factors which have contributed to this sorry sight and as Vettel, Rosberg and Mercedes all keep on winning, we can be certain the retirement of Schumacher is not a major factor. The good attendance during the races immediately after the removal of the Ostkurve section and its long straights goes to show that this is also not a major factor.

However, increasing a track's seating capacity certainly is: the Ostkurve tribune used to be fairly tiny compared to the capacity that has been added at the hairpin and the Mercedes Tribune which all offer much better views now than the Motodrom pictured above. The place around the track that used to be packed has moved from Motodrom up the road towards Mercedes Tribune.

Also, coinciding with the time of the 1st Schumacher retirement, major legal changes in the mid-00s in Germany have brought down the average annual income generated from work here in Germany, which has not increased notably since, in spite of the overall economy of Germany doing fairly well when compared to neighbouring countries.

Combine that with the bad press F1 has received in Germany due to Bernie Ecclestone's bribery trial and its outcome which resulted in Bernie paying a lump sum to the state (which was largely perceived as him being let off the hook for being so rich), then it's become really hard to justify for car enthusiasts here in Germany to justify against the rest of the family the rather out-there ticket prices of F1.

I'd say the contributing factor of increased seating capacity can be estimated much better once we can look at attendance figures from further runnings of the Mexican GP a few years on because at Hermanos Rodriguez, they have also increased the seating capacity considerably.

Aislabie · Post by **Aislabie** » 30 Jul 2016, 07:41

If Honda were able to get their engine fixed now, rather than at the end of the season, then the top four teams on the grid would all be using different engines. As soon as that happens, I think we can say that the new V6 Formula has matured enough that it could be judged objectively.

Post by **Miguel98** » 30 Jul 2016, 10:38

Hamilton is in danger of facing a 10 place grip drop for the race due to a unsafe release in FP3.

If the stewards decide to reprimand Hamilton, it makes his 3rd reprimand this year, and a automatic 10 place grid drop.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 30 Jul 2016, 11:09

Miguel98 wrote:Hamilton is in danger of facing a 10 place grip drop for the race due to a unsafe release in FP3.

If the stewards decide to reprimand Hamilton, it makes his 3rd reprimand this year, and a automatic 10 place grid drop.

In which case, might this become a good race weekend to start bringing in new engine units?

Post by **Londoner** » 30 Jul 2016, 13:32

Kvyat sounded like he was about to burst into tears when Sky interviewed him. He's completely broken and distraught, and I'm wondering if it might be a smart idea for him to bow out of F1 after this race, get himself into a better head space, and try and stimulate his career in GP2 or FE.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 30 Jul 2016, 13:36

Miguel98 wrote:Hamilton is in danger of facing a 10 place grip drop for the race due to a unsafe release in FP3.

If the stewards decide to reprimand Hamilton, it makes his 3rd reprimand this year, and a automatic 10 place grid drop.

According to Autosport, Hamilton will not be reprimanded so he gets to keep his 2nd-place grid slot, though Merc still get a 10,000 Euro fine. Still, I think Hamilton will get that important 3rd reprimand at some point later in the season.

Also, :facepalm:

at Crofty's '66 reference in qualifying.

Post by **mario** » 30 Jul 2016, 13:42

good_Ralf wrote:
Miguel98 wrote:Hamilton is in danger of facing a 10 place grip drop for the race due to a unsafe release in FP3.

If the stewards decide to reprimand Hamilton, it makes his 3rd reprimand this year, and a automatic 10 place grid drop.

According to Autosport, Hamilton will not be reprimanded so he gets to keep his 2nd-place grid slot, though Merc still get a 10,000 Euro fine. Still, I think Hamilton will get that important 3rd reprimand at some point later in the season.

Also, at Crofty's '66 reference in qualifying.

It would have been unusual for Hamilton to have been given a reprimand for that event, as it is more normal for the team to be given the penalty (i.e. a fine), as was the case for Force India earlier this year. Still, I agree that it does feel more like a question of when, rather than if, he will be given that final reprimand and a grid penalty.

East Londoner wrote:Kvyat sounded like he was about to burst into tears when Sky interviewed him. The poor chap's absolutely broken, and it's really sad to watch.

It does seem to be the case that the decision to demote him completely destroyed his confidence, and the fact that Sainz has just kept hammering him means that he's just kept declining since then. As you say, he just sounds distraught and helpless and it is painful to watch him struggle in that way - East Londoner does perhaps have a point in suggesting that Kvyat should perhaps just look to bow out of the sport on his own terms, since Gasly's recent form in GP2 might be enough to persuade Red Bull to give him the seat instead.

Post by **Ataxia** » 30 Jul 2016, 21:22

What Dany needs is a big f*cking hug. Red Bull have completely broken the guy; he has it all, he's doing a strong job in the parent team and gets a podium at China. He makes a mistake at Russia and finds himself in a junior team without any of the engineers that he knew from his stints in both teams, alongside a strong team-mate.

If he manages to bounce back from this, it'll be a bigger comeback story than Seabiscuit.

watka · Post by **watka** » 30 Jul 2016, 22:08

Ataxia wrote:What Dany needs is a big f*cking hug. Red Bull have completely broken the guy; he has it all, he's doing a strong job in the parent team and gets a podium at China. He makes a mistake at Russia and finds himself in a junior team without any of the engineers that he knew from his stints in both teams, alongside a strong team-mate.

If he manages to bounce back from this, it'll be a bigger comeback story than Seabiscuit.

Yes, beginning to think he'll struggle to see the season out. He's so short on confidence and F1 is a cruel sport.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 31 Jul 2016, 02:15

Kvyat as the Haryanto replacement! It isn't impossible under our current understanding of physics!

rachel1990 · Post by **rachel1990** » 31 Jul 2016, 12:04

Nico needs to sort his starts out....

Aguaman · Post by **Aguaman** » 31 Jul 2016, 12:15

Kvyat probably needs to get out of RB. He could be serviceable in a team that's more supportive like Haas, Force India or whatever. A break wouldn't hurt.

Oh Massa.

Aguaman · Post by **Aguaman** » 31 Jul 2016, 12:51

Come off it stewards. Rosberg didn't deserve that.

Post by **tommykl** » 31 Jul 2016, 12:53

It seems that a driver's probability of getting penalised for equal crimes is inversely proportional to his amount of Instagram followers.

rachel1990 · Post by **rachel1990** » 31 Jul 2016, 12:55

Harsh on Rosberg. Seem like a racing incident

Post by **Londoner** » 31 Jul 2016, 12:55

For those of you who want good racing, BTCC and its support categories are live on ITV4 until 6pm. I've turned F1 off in disgust after Rosberg's penalty.

Emerson Fittipaldi's stewarding decisions this weekend have been frankly abysmal.