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[Aguaman]

So Nico will be 4th. Also go McLaren.

[good_Ralf]

Well done Emerson, you've just lost a follower on Instagram.

[Aguaman]

Go Dan!

[rachel1990]

and its over. Hamiltionwinslol

[good_Ralf]

I just realized Hamilton's currect 4-race winning streak is longer than any winning streak he had in 2015.

[Klon]

What are you crackers talking about? Nico Rosberg clearly created a situation where Max Verstappen could either go off the track or run into the German. Whether Rosberg had braking lock doesn't matter, hell, if he did, it may condemn him even more because it would prove just how reckless his attempt was. Therefore, not only is the punishment justified, not giving him one would send a horrible signal to the rest of the field.

[Bobby Doorknobs]

What are you crackers talking about? Nico Rosberg clearly created a situation where Max Verstappen could either go off the track or run into the German. Whether Rosberg had braking lock doesn't matter, hell, if he did, it may condemn him even more because it would prove just how reckless his attempt was. Therefore, not only is the punishment justified, not giving him one would send a horrible signal to the rest of the field.

Going to have to agree with this. Rosberg went too deep and even if it was marginal, the fact remains that he did force Verstappen off the circuit.

[Paul Hayes]

Nice to see Jenson have a decent race. I liked his "Okay, I'm coming!" remark when told he might be able to get after Bottas!

[lance_rambert]

What are you crackers talking about? Nico Rosberg clearly created a situation where Max Verstappen could either go off the track or run into the German. Whether Rosberg had braking lock doesn't matter, hell, if he did, it may condemn him even more because it would prove just how reckless his attempt was. Therefore, not only is the punishment justified, not giving him one would send a horrible signal to the rest of the field.

Going to have to agree with this. Rosberg went too deep and even if it was marginal, the fact remains that he did force Verstappen off the circuit.

It's even the same utter douchebag move he pulled on Lewis in Austria, sans penalty because Nico f**ked himself over anyway. Who the hell did he learn to do that garbage from?

Someone might say Michael Schumacher, now that I think about it...

[mario]

Nice to see Jenson have a decent race. I liked his "Okay, I'm coming!" remark when told he might be able to get after Bottas!

It sounded like a little bit of Button's more positive demeanour was coming back there - it's been some time since we last heard him sounding that positive, but it looks like both he and Alonso now believe that the team is genuinely on an upward trajectory as Honda's development work finally seems to be going in the right direction.

As for the Verstappen-Rosberg incident, I must confess that, even after reviewing the incident, I'm still not quite sure either way what to make of it. The move by Rosberg was a bit clumsy as he chose to make the move from some distance behind Verstappen, making it into a dive bomb combined with a block pass. I would imagine that, if I'd been on the receiving end of such a move, I wouldn't exactly be happy about what had happened and the fact that I'd been forced to take evasive action by a relatively late and ambitious move.

However, on the other hand, it did seem as if he was perhaps a bit thrown by the fact that Verstappen started to move across his path within the braking zone, which is a criticism that has repeatedly come up in driver briefings (one of the topics in the driver briefing this weekend was a discussion on the Verstappen-Raikkonen clash in the Hungarian GP, with some drivers quite critical of Verstappen and Max himself being rather nonchalant about his behaviour in that incident).

Overall, I felt that it fell more towards the category of a "racing incident", though I can see where the stewards were coming from with their decision when you consider that the move only worked because Rosberg left Verstappen with no option but to go off the track.

[Barbazza]

Not particularly interesting race. Terrible decision by stewards. Same as last week in other words. Pfffftttt.

[girry]

What are you crackers talking about? Nico Rosberg clearly created a situation where Max Verstappen could either go off the track or run into the German. Whether Rosberg had braking lock doesn't matter, hell, if he did, it may condemn him even more because it would prove just how reckless his attempt was. Therefore, not only is the punishment justified, not giving him one would send a horrible signal to the rest of the field.

"not giving him one would send a horrible signal to the rest of the field"

What? The FIA have not been giving penalties for creating a situation where the car outside has to either yield or collide - just look at how many times the Mercedes' have forced each other off the track without repercussions - for something like 5 years...

Granted, I am glad the FIA appear to have started to police crowding now, judging by the penalties Rosberg and Vettel got.

Furthermore, in this situation, Max made a move under braking AGAIN - which is fundamentally more dangerous than crowding at low speed and deserves a way bigger penalty than Rosberg got. See; Ogawa, Campos, Krosnoff.

[AllAmericanReject]

If it wasn't for the fact that Rosberg is, in theory at least, the one person that can keep Mrs. Bieber from winning another championship, I would have been cheering for a collision to remove both cars from the race. The styles of these two drivers are much better suited to Supercross than F1.

[DemocalypseNow]

That 5 second penalty sets an absolutely awful precedent. Opportunism is dead. Every move must now be one with safe margin, where the car behind must be significantly faster to be allowed to attempt any kind of move.

I am utterly incredulous. Rosberg has been slapped with Verstappen's deserved penalty. Let's look at the reason why Verstappen being run off the road was his own fault, in a frame-by-frame analysis.


Rosberg starts to move to the right, initiating the overtake. Max is aiming towards the edge of the outside kerb.


Rosberg brings out the anchors, and Max only now realises Rosberg is aiming for the inside.


Vertstappen moves towards the inside to try and cover Robserg. Note how both cars are now aiming at the same piece of tarmac, the middle of the entry to the hairpin.


That move by Verstappen has left Rosberg with no option but to momentarily release braking pressure, allowing him to alter direction and avoid the Red Bull, which put itself in his path a couple of tenths earlier.


Rosberg is still slowing down as fast as he can without locking up. Max moves every so slightly left, trying to straighten his line in to increase his angle for the corner.


This is the point at which Rosberg would have turned in, had he not needed to lift earlier to account for Max's change of direction. He has to keep the brakes on longer than anticipated from his initial move, to ensure he makes the turn.


Rosberg has finally slowed down enough to start turning, but has arrived in the middle of the corner - rather than its entry - for his initial turn-in, thanks to Verstappen's inwards move forcing him there. Making any corner in that situation is going to be a tough ask, no matter the circumstances.


As you can see, Rosberg immediately goes to full lock once his speed has been adequately reduced.


Verstappen tries to cut across into the corner, but Rosberg is still (and has been the full time) on full lock right.


Rosberg is slightly ahead at this point, but still leaves more than enough room for Verstappen to rejoin the track, satisfying the requirement that he isn't forcing Verstappen off the road.

This makes it very clear that Verstappen ending up outside the track is a direct consequence of his own actions. Given Rosberg was able to make the corner without running wide, despite being forced to release the brakes and change direction, clearly he did not brake too late. If he doesn't have to release the brakes, and he can stay on his original line, he'd be turning in earlier and from a wider angle, thus giving Verstappen enough room to continue around the outside.

Verstappen caused his own demise, and should be levied a penalty for so dangerously moving across on a driver - directly into their path - in a braking zone.

[tBone]

Biscione, given your explanation and checking the rules, would it be fair to say both drivers could have gotten a penalty, by the rules? I still think Rosberg turned in later than necessary, after viewing the onboard videos and Verstappen definitely made a slight move in the braking zone (or did he turn in for the corner? hard to see here).

I personally think that neither driver deserved one, by the way. It was a hard, but fair duel if you ask me.

[Aislabie]

Personally, I think the rules should be relaxed so that neither driver could possibly be penalised for what they did here. Nor Rosberg last week for his move on Hamilton. If these are the best drivers in the world, in - frankly - some of the safest cars in the world, then you've got to trust thdm to race each other wheel-to-wheel for the sake of the fans who pay to watch.

Obviously, deliberately dangerous moves like those practiced by Senna on Prost in 1990 or Di Grassi on Buemi in Formula E should see the driver punished severely, but other than that, let them race.

[watka]

Looking at Biscione's analysis, for those complaining about the drivers not being allowed to make any move without fear of a penalty, you can quite easily flip that on its head and say if it was the other way round, drivers not being allowed to defend their position without fear of a penalty. If Verstappen had got slapped with a penalty for making a basic defensive manoeuvre (and previous races show he can be far more aggressive in defence than this), then you're basically saying he should pull over as soon as he sees Rosberg looking up the inside. Perhaps if we didn't have the artificial overtaking aid of DRS then we wouldn't have these circumstances where it looks like a driver is defending at the last minute because the closing speed of the attacking driver is so much greater.

The point is being made that Rosberg doesn't turn in until he's slowed down enough. I can see how he had to correct his direction by coming off the brakes before re-applying. He was clever enough to turn a potential lock-up into a block pass in the truest sense of the word. However, I would question why he wasn't aiming for the inside of the corner if he's going for an overtaking manoeuvre. He was aiming for the middle of the corner which Verstappen was always going to aim for as well, being the optimum racing line. If anything, Verstappen did well to avoid an incident by turning back to the outside of the corner.

I just don't think it's as clear cut as saying Verstappen caused Rosberg to overshoot the corner. Rosberg came in hot, no doubt about it. Perhaps he wouldn't have overshot if Verstappen hadn't moved across, but then again can you expect any driver to leave the door completely open?

[dr-baker]

but then again can you expect any driver to leave the door completely open?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R43mBWirio

[girry]

Personally, I think the rules should be relaxed so that neither driver could possibly be penalised for what they did here. Nor Rosberg last week for his move on Hamilton. If these are the best drivers in the world, in - frankly - some of the safest cars in the world, then you've got to trust thdm to race each other wheel-to-wheel for the sake of the fans who pay to watch.

Obviously, deliberately dangerous moves like those practiced by Senna on Prost in 1990 or Di Grassi on Buemi in Formula E should see the driver punished severely, but other than that, let them race.

I fully disagree. "Letting 'em race" only leads to racing where the one who drives the most unfairly (ie. does crowding, makes blocks in braking zone) always wins, where there is no side by side action through corners because the car inside is always gonna crowd. Eventually, it will make the drivers fear overtaking anywhere but safely on the DRS zone.

Furthermore, no collision is more dangerous than a collision into the back of a braking car. Just ask Alonso, he had some good air time in Melbourne. That's why Verstappen is stepping really badly over the line and I only hope someone tames him down before someone crashes into him.

"Verstappen was only using the optimal racing line"

Optimal racing line into a hairpin involves turning in 50 meters later than Verstappen did. Just look at any onboard video of the Hockenheim track, or even the cars ahead of them. None of them veers away from the edge of the track before turn-in point!

[tommykl]

Regarding the Rosberg/Verstappen situation, I'll just leave here the video of the Räikkönen/Montoya battle from 2002. Notice that in this case, no mention is made of potentially dangerous driving or deliberate dangerous crowding or not leaving space. Presumably having higher-pitched engines renders all criticism of driving standards irrelevant.

https://www.facebook.com/Formula1/videos/634636940026625/

[Bobby Doorknobs]

Regarding the Rosberg/Verstappen situation, I'll just leave here the video of the Räikkönen/Montoya battle from 2002. Notice that in this case, no mention is made of potentially dangerous driving or deliberate dangerous crowding or not leaving space. Presumably having higher-pitched engines renders all criticism of driving standards irrelevant.

https://www.facebook.com/Formula1/videos/634636940026625/

From what I can see, Montoya was left with more room in that video and still went wide at the exit, whereas Verstappen was off before he and Rosberg had even reached the exit of the corner.

Feels like two somewhat similar but not identical scenarios to me. There's an overused fruit analogy that would apply here.

[tBone]

Regarding the Rosberg/Verstappen situation, I'll just leave here the video of the Räikkönen/Montoya battle from 2002. Notice that in this case, no mention is made of potentially dangerous driving or deliberate dangerous crowding or not leaving space. Presumably having higher-pitched engines renders all criticism of driving standards irrelevant.

https://www.facebook.com/Formula1/videos/634636940026625/

From what I can see, Montoya was left with more room in that video and still went wide at the exit, whereas Verstappen was off before he and Rosberg had even reached the exit of the corner.

Feels like two somewhat similar but not identical scenarios to me. There's an overused fruit analogy that would apply here.

The forbidden fruit analogy..? ok that one was probably not that funny...

[andrew]

The penalty for nico was very harsh from what we have seen in the past. For example Bahrain 2012 was more malicious and yet this was not penalised. I personally don't think it would have been investigated had max not complained. However with Nico although he is full lock he does leave it very late being half way around the corner, this did not help his case.

[BigG80]

Every time F1 visits Hockenheim, I mourn the old track and think what a shame it is that they ripped it up. And by the end of each race weekend, I remember just how good the current track is as a race track for producing good racing. That section from Turn 2 all the way into the stadium makes for brilliant action. Sure we didn't get much at the front in F1 but Alonso's pass into the stadium for one was a real highlight of the race.

And having just caught up on the GP2 sprint race that was fantastic. A pass round the outside of the Sachs curve by Ghiotto was sensational.

I guess ultimately the issue is that in building this track, they destroyed something unique and different when we as fans are desperate for unique and special tracks especially if they have that link to the past. If the current track was anywhere else in the world, everyone would be lauding it as one of the greatest race tracks on the planet. But it took away an old friend so we don't.

It's a shame that Tilke doesn't seem capable of repeating the trick on these new tracks. Just imagine if that layout was in Abu Dhabi instead of the damp squib that is really there.

[Spectoremg]

Every time F1 visits Hockenheim, I mourn the old track and think what a shame it is that they ripped it up. And by the end of each race weekend, I remember just how good the current track is as a race track for producing good racing. That section from Turn 2 all the way into the stadium makes for brilliant action. Sure we didn't get much at the front in F1 but Alonso's pass into the stadium for one was a real highlight of the race.

And having just caught up on the GP2 sprint race that was fantastic. A pass round the outside of the Sachs curve by Ghiotto was sensational.

I guess ultimately the issue is that in building this track, they destroyed something unique and different when we as fans are desperate for unique and special tracks especially if they have that link to the past. If the current track was anywhere else in the world, everyone would be lauding it as one of the greatest race tracks on the planet. But it took away an old friend so we don't.

It's a shame that Tilke doesn't seem capable of repeating the trick on these new tracks. Just imagine if that layout was in Abu Dhabi instead of the damp squib that is really there.

I agree. I miss the old track but the current one does look exciting.
Digging up the old track was rubbing salt in the wound though.

[mario]

The penalty for nico was very harsh from what we have seen in the past. For example Bahrain 2012 was more malicious and yet this was not penalised. I personally don't think it would have been investigated had max not complained. However with Nico although he is full lock he does leave it very late being half way around the corner, this did not help his case.

It could also be that, because the FIA announced it would be relaxing the rules on some aspects (for example, on track limits), the stewards therefore decided to take a harsher line on other on track incidents instead. It does seem that there is some sympathy for his position though - Brundle has been arguing that he thinks Rosberg shouldn't have been penalised.

[EuroBrun]

The penalty for nico was very harsh from what we have seen in the past. For example Bahrain 2012 was more malicious and yet this was not penalised. I personally don't think it would have been investigated had max not complained. However with Nico although he is full lock he does leave it very late being half way around the corner, this did not help his case.

It could also be that, because the FIA announced it would be relaxing the rules on some aspects (for example, on track limits), the stewards therefore decided to take a harsher line on other on track incidents instead. It does seem that there is some sympathy for his position though - Brundle has been arguing that he thinks Rosberg shouldn't have been penalised.

Agree with Martin (and many more else), but Rosberg had already been penalized in Austria for a similar situation. And we can say what we want about race stewards but at least they are showing consistency in all their job.

[tommykl]

The penalty for nico was very harsh from what we have seen in the past. For example Bahrain 2012 was more malicious and yet this was not penalised. I personally don't think it would have been investigated had max not complained. However with Nico although he is full lock he does leave it very late being half way around the corner, this did not help his case.

It could also be that, because the FIA announced it would be relaxing the rules on some aspects (for example, on track limits), the stewards therefore decided to take a harsher line on other on track incidents instead. It does seem that there is some sympathy for his position though - Brundle has been arguing that he thinks Rosberg shouldn't have been penalised.

Agree with Martin (and many more else), but Rosberg had already been penalized in Austria for a similar situation. And we can say what we want about race stewards but at least they are showing consistency in all their job.

Bear in mind that Nico's move in Austria was penalised because it caused contact. In this case, no contact happened. I don't think you should penalise a move because it could cause contact, because any move could. It should also be borne in mind that leaving another driver no space at the exit is quite a common manoeuver that has rarely (if ever) been penalised.

I'm of the opinion that the stewards in Hockenheim were far harsher than before. In GP2, they penalised Nabil Jeffri for getting collected by an opportunistic attempt from Norman Nato, then disqualified Gasly when his fire extinguisher accidentally discharged in the middle of the race.

[Rob Dylan]

On the subject of Gasly's disqualification, was it not a little ridiculous that he was disqualified after the race when the stewards could easily have taken action during the race to get the team to check if the car was safe. You would think seeing as everyone knew Gasly had the incident that there might be some kind of issue of safety that the stewards might wave a black-and-orange flag, rather than waiting until after the race was finished to disqualify him. One would think keeping him out, if it was unsafe, is in itself unsafe.

[mario]

It turns out that there was one somewhat rejectful moment that we missed - AMuS have now found out that Vettel, somehow, managed to miscount the number of laps and mistakenly slowed down and began to drive off track to pick up rubber on the last lap of the race, wrongly believing that the chequered flag had already been waived. It seems that the team did manage to put him right fairly quickly, but not until he'd lost around 8 seconds as a result.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCrO3WnEHbQ

[Rob Dylan]

It turns out that there was one somewhat rejectful moment that we missed - AMuS have now found out that Vettel, somehow, managed to miscount the number of laps and mistakenly slowed down and began to drive off track to pick up rubber on the last lap of the race, wrongly believing that the chequered flag had already been waived. It seems that the team did manage to put him right fairly quickly, but not until he'd lost around 8 seconds as a result.

Saying that it's representative of Seb's mindset right now would seem cliched and ignorant of his situation, but it is funny how representative this is of his whole psychology right now, as well as the whole of Ferrari.

[yannicksamlad]

Every time F1 visits Hockenheim, I mourn the old track and think what a shame it is that they ripped it up. And by the end of each race weekend, I remember just how good the current track is as a race track for producing good racing. That section from Turn 2 all the way into the stadium makes for brilliant action. Sure we didn't get much at the front in F1 but Alonso's pass into the stadium for one was a real highlight of the race.

And having just caught up on the GP2 sprint race that was fantastic. A pass round the outside of the Sachs curve by Ghiotto was sensational.

I guess ultimately the issue is that in building this track, they destroyed something unique and different when we as fans are desperate for unique and special tracks especially if they have that link to the past. If the current track was anywhere else in the world, everyone would be lauding it as one of the greatest race tracks on the planet. But it took away an old friend so we don't.

It's a shame that Tilke doesn't seem capable of repeating the trick on these new tracks. Just imagine if that layout was in Abu Dhabi instead of the damp squib that is really there.

I agree. I miss the old track but the current one does look exciting.
Digging up the old track was rubbing salt in the wound though.

I'll take a slightly different line on the old track; it wasnt very good. I got fed up of team-by-team grids ( as car performance was everything) and passing in the 80s/90s was like it was DRS assisted if you had a good slipstream and a slippery car/more powerful engine..it was easy . For spectators there were few seats near the real action at the chicanes..and only 45 laps ...and away from the Motordrom you couldn't see hardly any track , and in the Motordrom you didnt see any passing . ( I am exaggerating of course ..Jones/Jabouille etc are exceptions ). And basically if you had an accident it was a big one even in the later, safer years - Alesi, Hakkinen, Warwick.
I like the new track - there's been some super racing on it, and spectators get a good deal. And its safe