Ponderbox

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 20 Oct 2017, 18:49

This wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:, or Lella Lombardi's DNQ in the one race she attempted in 1974, with a privately-entered Brabham resplendent with #208 to promote Radio Luxembourg. I'll bet they were happy with their investment...

Wasn't her official starting number 28 and the 0 just put in there for decorative purposes?

It couldn't have been as the 28 was used throughout the year by the Goldie Hexagon entry.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 20 Oct 2017, 19:21

Simtek wrote:
This wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:, or Lella Lombardi's DNQ in the one race she attempted in 1974, with a privately-entered Brabham resplendent with #208 to promote Radio Luxembourg. I'll bet they were happy with their investment...

Wasn't her official starting number 28 and the 0 just put in there for decorative purposes?

It couldn't have been as the 28 was used throughout the year by the Goldie Hexagon entry.

Then it's just an urban legend.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 20 Oct 2017, 21:45

mario wrote:Rubens was paid on a race by race basis, depending on the number of points he scored.

I am gonna need a source on this, because that would make certain team mishaps in 2009 extremely suspicious.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 20 Oct 2017, 22:09

Klon wrote:
mario wrote:Rubens was paid on a race by race basis, depending on the number of points he scored.

I am gonna need a source on this, because that would make certain team mishaps in 2009 extremely suspicious.

And the whole Honda pulling out >>> "management buyout oops won the championship fairy story" >>> Mercedes works team doesn't now look a bit suspicious

Post by **mario** » 21 Oct 2017, 07:20

Klon wrote:
mario wrote:Rubens was paid on a race by race basis, depending on the number of points he scored.

I am gonna need a source on this, because that would make certain team mishaps in 2009 extremely suspicious.

I've only got time to quickly find a reference to that story, so will have to make do with one of those sites which repeated that story at the time. http://more.bleacherreport.com/articles ... 9-contract

I'd slightly misremembered the story - he was initially hired just for the first four races, and then after that I think it was on a race by race basis. The bonus payments for points was also capped after he reached 25 points, which he'd already beaten by the Spanish GP.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 21 Oct 2017, 21:33

mario wrote:
Klon wrote:
mario wrote:Rubens was paid on a race by race basis, depending on the number of points he scored.

I am gonna need a source on this, because that would make certain team mishaps in 2009 extremely suspicious.

I've only got time to quickly find a reference to that story, so will have to make do with one of those sites which repeated that story at the time. http://more.bleacherreport.com/articles ... 9-contract

I'd slightly misremembered the story - he was initially hired just for the first four races, and then after that I think it was on a race by race basis. The bonus payments for points was also capped after he reached 25 points, which he'd already beaten by the Spanish GP.

As yes Bleacher Report, the National Enquirer of sports. Although to be fair, Barstool is doing its damnest to beat them.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 23 Oct 2017, 08:18

So, I see that a number of reactions to Verstappen's penalty place the blame squarely on the shoulders of Mika Salo, as if he was the only person with decision-making powers on the stewards' panel (some point to the fact that his status as a Ferrari driver, and his Finnish nationality, may have introduced some bias into the decision). Now, I understand the driver representative would have a good deal of weight in the final decision, but it doesn't seem entirely right to place full blame on the driver when it is supposedly a panel decision.

Basically it feels too much to me like Salo is being used as a scapegoat without a full understanding of the process.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 23 Oct 2017, 13:17

Simtek wrote:So, I see that a number of reactions to Verstappen's penalty place the blame squarely on the shoulders of Mika Salo, as if he was the only person with decision-making powers on the stewards' panel (some point to the fact that his status as a Ferrari driver, and his Finnish nationality, may have introduced some bias into the decision). Now, I understand the driver representative would have a good deal of weight in the final decision, but it doesn't seem entirely right to place full blame on the driver when it is supposedly a panel decision.

Basically it feels too much to me like Salo is being used as a scapegoat without a full understanding of the process.

Going off of his Facebook account, he seems to be helping that thought, of a one man show, myth of not. Although he could be trying to deflect the heat off the other 2, which is admirable I admit.

girry · Post by **girry** » 23 Oct 2017, 14:58

Salo apparently told Jos Verstappen that the final decision was made by Charlie, not the stewards. Also stated they cannot pick which incidents to investigate - I can only presume this is because of the FIA's modern, idiotic policy of "stewards not getting involved" with any incident without specific request from the drivers or the teams, because "it interferes with the racing".

Ergo, that's why the inconsistency with the stewarding, and that's why the drivers are whining on the radio about each other all the time - they have to.

golic_2004 · Post by **golic_2004** » 23 Oct 2017, 17:21

Well well well. It looks like Hartley is staying at Toro Rosso afterall with Gasly as his partner, leaving Kvyat on the sidelines again. :chilton:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hart ... so-969691/

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 23 Oct 2017, 17:44

Sorry for also posting this in a separate thread. Moderators, do what you need to do.

But this is certainly a twist! I thought Hartley was simply a stop-gap option, not a possibility for a full-time drive. Does he not have other commitments in the WEC or something? Can Toro Rosso actually use him for the rest of this year, or for next year for that matter? This all seems a bit surreal when considering nobody has spoken about him since 2009, yet he's now apparently racing for the rest of the season. (Not that the rest of the season is very long, but still).

pasta_maldonado · Post by **pasta_maldonado** » 23 Oct 2017, 17:47

golic_2004 wrote:Well well well. It looks like Hartley is staying at Toro Rosso afterall with Gasly as his partner, leaving Kvyat on the sidelines again.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hart ... so-969691/

If you think Kvyat has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention...

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 23 Oct 2017, 18:24

Rob Dylan wrote:Sorry for also posting this in a separate thread. Moderators, do what you need to do.

But this is certainly a twist! I thought Hartley was simply a stop-gap option, not a possibility for a full-time drive. Does he not have other commitments in the WEC or something? Can Toro Rosso actually use him for the rest of this year, or for next year for that matter? This all seems a bit surreal when considering nobody has spoken about him since 2009, yet he's now apparently racing for the rest of the season. (Not that the rest of the season is very long, but still).

Hartley is good to race for the rest of the year as F1 and WEC have no upcoming date clashes. As for next year, he's actually been left fishing for a drive with the news of Porsche's withdrawal; he was not too far away from getting a Ganassi IndyCar drive (and maybe still isn't, who knows?) before Red Bull rang him up.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 23 Oct 2017, 19:14

It's all interesting though. He'll be 28 soon, so they obviously don't have any long-term future plans for the guy. They probably just want a motivated, dependable driver to partner Gasly, and Kvyat hasn't really had any pace whatsoever all season (Austin notwithstanding). It'll be interesting as to what Hartley is getting out of this, though. I mean, a drive is a drive is a drive, and to say you drove in F1 is something special. But he's 27, almost 28, what can Toro Rosso promise him? They won't be paying him much, and it sounds like they can barely promise he'll be in the car after Mexico.

It's all very strange in my opinion.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 23 Oct 2017, 20:39

Rob Dylan wrote:It's all interesting though. He'll be 28 soon, so they obviously don't have any long-term future plans for the guy. They probably just want a motivated, dependable driver to partner Gasly, and Kvyat hasn't really had any pace whatsoever all season (Austin notwithstanding). It'll be interesting as to what Hartley is getting out of this, though. I mean, a drive is a drive is a drive, and to say you drove in F1 is something special. But he's 27, almost 28, what can Toro Rosso promise him? They won't be paying him much, and it sounds like they can barely promise he'll be in the car after Mexico.

It's all very strange in my opinion.

Well, Huelkenberg's 30 and it was only this year that he finally got into something resembling a top drive (thinking long-term of course). Hartley's 27. Depending on motivation, performance and what opportunities open up for him, he could have a career of about eight to ten years in F1, a pretty long time.

I really find Hartley's F1 break to be refreshing and I hope he proves that not every driver shows their true brilliance when they're barely into their twenties as some, particularly Red Bull, seem to have forgotten. Yes, the true greats generally do, but there have been some excellent drivers over the years who entered the sport relatively late by recent standards, like Damon Hill, Mark Webber and Juan Pablo Montoya. It would be interesting to see whether or not Hartley belongs with them, although I will admit the odds are stacked against him right this moment. Time will tell whether that changes.

CarloSpace · Post by **CarloSpace** » 23 Oct 2017, 21:49

And Hartley really has nothing to lose if he takes the 2018 seat. The worst thing that can happen to him is that he gets thrashed by Gasly and dropped by Red Bull again after or during 2018. Nevertheless he'd still be a proven driver and would probably have the same options (Indycar/Sportscars/whatever) for 2019 that he has now. F1 seats don't walk by every year though so he'd be a madman not to take the Toro Rosso if/when offered.

For Toro Rosso it's a bit weird, I agree. If I'd be Tost/Marko I'd probably keep Kvjat onboard for 2018 but those Red Bull people have never convinced me with their decision making. Dropping Buemi was and is still the stupidest thing they have done. Never understood it still won't.

Post by **Londoner** » 23 Oct 2017, 21:56

Not gonna lie, I'd rather have Hartley driving for Ganassi in 2018. He's too good to be spending his time with that wretched Honda engine next year, when he could have a shot at winning the Indy 500. Plus, the potential of a Kiwi double act with Scott Dixon? Yes pls. :dance:

Peteroli34 · Post by **Peteroli34** » 24 Oct 2017, 21:50

So Hartley replaced Gasly who replaced Kyvat, While Gasly replaced Kyvat who replaced Sainz? talk about confusing when it comes to parts allocation. So Kyvat has the distinction of having been replaced twice by the same driver in 4 races.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 25 Oct 2017, 01:52

Really hoping Hartley gets the chance to race for the full season in F1 next year. He deserves it, he's a much better and more interesting choice than Kvyat (let's face it, the guy is spent) and the chance to drive in F1 is far more enticing than a seat in IndyCar which doesn't even have a grid of 20 cars for next season yet. Even if it doesn't work out for Toro Rosso, if he really wants to go to the States that door will still be open for him once he's done with F1.

Post by **Ataxia** » 25 Oct 2017, 08:49

Kvyat confirmed as leaving the whole Red Bull setup. His treatment across the last couple of years has been absolutely shocking, and he's had absolutely no support from within the team. He needed a psychologist or a mental health professional to work with him, and he didn't get one.

A reserve role with a team like Williams, or a run in endurance racing would perhaps do him the world of good - after he's had a short break from racing, perhaps.

Honestly, I'm kinda angry that Red Bull let this slip for so long. More needs to be done in sport to support the mental well-being of competitors - we're talking about living, breathing humans, not plug-and-play devices.

1993DonningtonNo1Mk2 · Post by **1993DonningtonNo1Mk2** » 26 Oct 2017, 17:31

Simtek wrote:
This wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:, or Lella Lombardi's DNQ in the one race she attempted in 1974, with a privately-entered Brabham resplendent with #208 to promote Radio Luxembourg. I'll bet they were happy with their investment...

Wasn't her official starting number 28 and the 0 just put in there for decorative purposes?

It couldn't have been as the 28 was used throughout the year by the Goldie Hexagon entry.

Speaking of 28, Hartley's chosen it as his permanent number.

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 26 Oct 2017, 17:36

Brendon Hartley for Ferrari! (Along with Nico Hülkenberg when he's done with Renault). Let's face it, Will Stevens was never going to make that grade.

1993DonningtonNo1Mk2 · Post by **1993DonningtonNo1Mk2** » 26 Oct 2017, 17:40

dinizintheoven wrote:Brendon Hartley for Ferrari! (Along with Nico Hülkenberg when he's done with Renault). Let's face it, Will Stevens was never going to make that grade.

So that makes the 2nd instance of a former F1 driver losing his permanent race number to a current F1 driver, first Kobayashi, now Stevens and isn't it funny how those two drivers were briefly team-mates?

Also, this will make Hartley the first driver to use two different numbers without changing team under the current numbering system.

The Chicane · Post by **The Chicane** » 27 Oct 2017, 18:35

So Catalonia has announced independence from Spain, I wonder how this will effect the Spanish Grand Prix at Catalunya?

Fetzie · Post by **Fetzie** » 27 Oct 2017, 20:42

The Chicane wrote:So Catalonia has announced independence from Spain, I wonder how this will effect the Spanish Grand Prix at Catalunya?

It won't affect it at all.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 28 Oct 2017, 04:54

Fetzie wrote:
The Chicane wrote:So Catalonia has announced independence from Spain, I wonder how this will effect the Spanish Grand Prix at Catalunya?

It won't affect it at all.

For the moment it seems like it won't affect it. And if it will, Spain will simply move to Jerez.

novitopoli · Post by **novitopoli** » 29 Oct 2017, 23:57

1993DonningtonNo1Mk2 wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:Brendon Hartley for Ferrari! (Along with Nico Hülkenberg when he's done with Renault). Let's face it, Will Stevens was never going to make that grade.

So that makes the 2nd instance of a former F1 driver losing his permanent race number to a current F1 driver, first Kobayashi, now Stevens and isn't it funny how those two drivers were briefly team-mates?

Also, this will make Hartley the first driver to use two different numbers without changing team under the current numbering system.

Nope. Vandoorne used #47 in his one-off debut at the 2016 Bahrain GP.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 30 Oct 2017, 11:00

Hartley is the only one doing it in the same season though.

Spectoremg · Post by **Spectoremg** » 30 Oct 2017, 17:11

Is Fernando about to make another spectacularly bad career move? Honda engines improving (a bit) and Renaults failing all over the place.

The Chicane · Post by **The Chicane** » 30 Oct 2017, 17:27

Anyone else find that podium DJ in Mexico really cringey?

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 30 Oct 2017, 17:33

This wrote:Hartley is the only one doing it in the same season though.

Hence my latest post in "Unusual F1 Stats"...

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 30 Oct 2017, 18:05

The Chicane wrote:Anyone else find that podium DJ in Mexico really cringey?

As with so many things nowadays, I find it best to just pretend it never happened

I mostly turn on the race about five minutes before they start, because whatever channel's guff nowadays seems even more "guff-y" than it used to be around 2009-2012. And back then it could get really guff-y. Eddie Jordan doing dramatic speeches in rhyme about the 2011 season is something I pretend just didn't happen :shock:

1993DonningtonNo1Mk2 · Post by **1993DonningtonNo1Mk2** » 31 Oct 2017, 10:42

dinizintheoven wrote:
This wrote:Hartley is the only one doing it in the same season though.

Hence my latest post in "Unusual F1 Stats"...

That's what I meant.

Spectoremg · Post by **Spectoremg** » 31 Oct 2017, 20:47

Any news from Liberty re Ferrari's F1 gravy train payment?

Post by **mario** » 31 Oct 2017, 22:16

Spectoremg wrote:Any news from Liberty re Ferrari's F1 gravy train payment?

There is little that can be done for some time yet given that the current Concorde Agreement does not expire until the start of 2021 - it should be said that there is talk that some other teams were also given additional payments (such as Red Bull) as part of the "divide and conquer" tactics of Bernie at the time.

Speaking of 2021, the first draft of the 2021 engine regulations has been announced earlier today.

As some had suspected, the MGU-H is being dropped from the overall package and replaced with an uprated KERS unit, whilst the rev limit will be raised to 18,000rpm (no word yet on whether the fuel flow restrictions or total fuel limits will be adjusted at all).

Interchangeability of engines seems to be another major focus, with increased standardisation of the turbocharger design and the introduction of standardised energy stores and control electronic systems. There will also be much tighter proscription of the dimensions of the power units by the FIA to enable "a plug-and-play engine/chassis/transmission swap capability". https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/form ... an-973420/

I can understand the logic of some of those decisions, as there would be some continuity in terms of the engine design that will potentially help with keeping costs down. However, overall it sounds as if some of the changes have not gone down well with some of the new manufacturers who were reportedly interested in entering the sport, and a number of those within the sport also seem to be unhappy.

It does also seem to have an element of wanting to effectively negate the power of the engine manufacturers in the sport by making their engines interchangeable and indistinguishable by severely restricting their ability to gain any significant performance advantages over their rivals.

Overall, my first impression would probably be on the negative side given that, in several areas, the engines are a step backwards and sound as if they've been written to undercut the manufacturers, and in particular Mercedes, rather than necessarily being for the best health of the sport as a whole.

Spectoremg · Post by **Spectoremg** » 03 Nov 2017, 17:37

Ferrari threatening to leave again according to the BBC. I've no idea why as the impending tediousness of it all prevented me from looking further.
And another thing; is their superstar driver 3rd best now behind Lewis and Max?

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 03 Nov 2017, 17:58

Spectoremg wrote:Ferrari threatening to leave again according to the BBC. I've no idea why as the impending tediousness of it all prevented me from looking further.
And another thing; is their superstar driver 3rd best now behind Lewis and Max?

Ferrari threatens to leave. Everything changes; everything stays the same.

All depends on next year I suppose. If Red Bull get their act together (since 2014 they've been acting like 2010-2016 Ferrari), or another team enters the top three, then I can see the focus turn from Vettel to Verstappen. Both Ricciardo and Verstappen are deserving of a championship now imo (with a personal preference for Daniel first), but they need a decent car if they want to overhaul Ferrari.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 09 Nov 2017, 16:25

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/132895/why-divided-f1-faces-a-big-test-in-brazil
Article on Autosport about the lasting popularity and support for Liberty Media with the announcement of the new set of rules from 2021 onwards. Thoughts on this? Although there were dissenting voices at the beginning, they're certainly gaining traction under the current accusations that Liberty are desiring a more standardised and "Americanised" system. I'm not sure where I stand on this, but it's getting hard to tell what's changed since Bernie left a year ago.

Maybe this should be put into a new "2021 regulations / Liberty Media" thread where we can talk about this?

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 24 Nov 2017, 20:52

The 2018 calendar with every race given as large an area as I could:

Oceanian
Bahraini (formerly West Asian)
Sino-Korean
Caucasian
Iberian
Monégasque (newly hemmed in by France)
Canadian
French
Austrian
British Isles
German
Hungarian (Eastern Europe is a stretch...)
Benelux
Italian
Southeast Asian
Russian
Japanese
United States
Middle American
South American
Mainland West Asian

Neglected regions:
Northern Europe (no F1-fit tracks there anyway...)
Eastern Europe besides Russia (no tracks in general there)
Southeast Europe (this era's cars at Grobnik would be fun...)
Quite a lot of Asia (sadly the South Asian GP has been discontinued)
All of Africa (used to have this one too)
Antarctica (waiting for FE to snap this one up)

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 24 Nov 2017, 23:18

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:The 2018 calendar with every race given as large an area as I could:
Russian

You could always have had that as the CIS Grand Prix, effectively the former constituent contries of the USSR without the Baltic States (and, I think, Georgia). Yes, I know, that deals with Azerbaijan as well, but it's not as if the USA didn't have three races at one time.