2018 Russian Grand Prix Thread

[Ataxia]

I'm willing to bet that, once more, this is the first time a Russian GP thread's been opened in Russia. I can't really be bothered to fact check this, however.

So, we're here in Sochi. Except, it's not actually Sochi, it's in a place called Adler. Prior to the Winter Olympics I'd imagine there was nothing, but now we've got streets and stadia lining the Black Sea, all nestled around the Sochi Autodrom to cater to all denominations of sports fans.

The circuit's also about 10km from the Georgian border - as in the country, not the state. Georgia Border also sounds like it should be the name of an medal-winning equestrian, so they've got that to be proud of.

Will the race be exciting? Who knows, it's entirely subjective...but it'd be difficult to bet against a Mercedes win.

Things to look out for:
- Daniil Kvyat is expected to formalise his return to Toro Rosso next season.
- Rumours abound that Marcus Ericsson might be cut loose from Sauber, as Giovinazzi takes his place for FP1.
- Norris is also doing FP1, along with Artem Markelov and Nicholas Latifi.

[Pacific Edge]

Things to look out for:
- Daniil Kvyat is expected to formalise his return to Toro Rosso next season.
- Rumours abound that Marcus Ericsson might be cut loose from Sauber, as Giovinazzi takes his place for FP1.

Staying cool in Russia seems easy, but not if the rumours are anything to go by. Could be a race of pressure, as it could be last chance for Ericsson and Hartley, also Vettel tries to start his for 6 out of 6 streak to get the title, and of course Ocon still needs to prove a point.

[Rob Dylan]

I admit I'll miss Ericsson if he really does go He's proudly held the resident reject card for many faithful years now, and I hope his cash and extraordinary talent can get him at least another season or two.

[Ataxia]

...and there it is.

Not 100% convinced of Giovinazzi, personally, although I've said this about other drivers in the past. Whichever way you look, he's been talked up a lot...so he'll have to deliver.

But he's got the right benchmark. Beat Raikkonen and you're at least a bit of a star...

[Rob Dylan]

Excellent news I think!

I always thought it was a shame that he never got more than those two races in 2017 - which frankly was due to the luck of the Gods anyway. Thankfully we can see the guy get at least a season under his belt to really prove that he's as good as some folks say he is.

I am happy with this news

[Waris]

FP1 will be interesting with Norris and Markelov both making their debuts.

As for Giovinazzi: he's the first Italian in F1 since Liuzzi, isn't he? Nice for Italy to have a full-time F1 driver again.

[solarcold]

I actually spent my honeymoon in Adler, in a hotel 5 minutes go from the raceway. It was such a good time!

And no, Adler wasn't empty before the Olympics. In fact, I spent my summer vacations there 7 times in a row when I was a child. I admit this particular part of Adler might have been emptier but it still was there.

Adler is a great place. I especially love the beaches. You see, many Russian resorts provide sand beaches, which I hate. Adler's beaches are filled with nice rounded boulders which I love.

If anyone ever goes there, there's a nice place to do karting right beside the track. It's not expensive and you can get your 10-minutes run. (Formula Karting Club).

As for the track itself, you don't have access to just walk there but there are those bridges over the track and you can go there anytime. My wife and me, we were lucky to visit the track right when some Russian roadcar racing series was taking place. So we watched the race from the bridges for free.

There are other curiosities nearby, too. Take Sochi Park, with rollercoasters and attractions (Rollercoasters: you might know them as Montagnes russes, we Russians call them American hills.) If you ever visit the place, there's that purple rollercoaster named Quantum Leap. My only advice: DON'T. It looks way way less scary than it really is.

Speaking of the sea, in the end of September you _might_ try swimming if the weather is good. But by the beginning of October and later, it becomes impossible. I was there in October and I only swam once, it was too cold for me.

Also, Adler is walking distance from Abkhazia (or Georgia, if you like it this way). I've heard you could just walk there with a Russian passport only, but we were too lazy to try.

I'm looking forward for the Grand Prix!

[mario]

FP1 will be interesting with Norris and Markelov both making their debuts.

As for Giovinazzi: he's the first Italian in F1 since Liuzzi, isn't he? Nice for Italy to have a full-time F1 driver again.

I presume you mean in the sense of being a full time driver, otherwise I would have said Raffaele Marciello - he was the third driver for Sauber and did take part in four practise sessions in 2015, so was the most recent Italian driver to take part in a race weekend before Giovinazzi.

[Waris]

FP1 will be interesting with Norris and Markelov both making their debuts.

As for Giovinazzi: he's the first Italian in F1 since Liuzzi, isn't he? Nice for Italy to have a full-time F1 driver again.

I presume you mean in the sense of being a full time driver, otherwise I would have said Raffaele Marciello - he was the third driver for Sauber and did take part in four practise sessions in 2015, so was the most recent Italian driver to take part in a race weekend before Giovinazzi.

Yes, I meant in the sense of a race d river. But thanks for pointing that out, I'd forgotten all about that! What ever happened to Marciello? He was supposed to be the next big thing from Italy, and then he quietly disappeared from the Ferrari young driver programme.

[Bleu]

Q2 for the Reject of the Race?

[mario]

FP1 will be interesting with Norris and Markelov both making their debuts.

As for Giovinazzi: he's the first Italian in F1 since Liuzzi, isn't he? Nice for Italy to have a full-time F1 driver again.

I presume you mean in the sense of being a full time driver, otherwise I would have said Raffaele Marciello - he was the third driver for Sauber and did take part in four practise sessions in 2015, so was the most recent Italian driver to take part in a race weekend before Giovinazzi.

Yes, I meant in the sense of a race d river. But thanks for pointing that out, I'd forgotten all about that! What ever happened to Marciello? He was supposed to be the next big thing from Italy, and then he quietly disappeared from the Ferrari young driver programme.

Marciello has said in the past that Arrivabene seemed to have taken a dislike to him and pushed for him to be dropped from Ferrari's driver programme at the start of 2016 - ever since then, he has been over in the Blancpain GT series (both the Sprint and Endurance titles).

Q2 for the Reject of the Race?

It was something of a damp squib to say the least, though I would have thought that, with Sochi traditionally being a circuit where wear rates are quite low, running the hypersofts in the first stint wouldn't be that much of an issue. That said, both Renault's had been rather slow in the first part of qualifying and probably suspected that they wouldn't have made it into the top 10 anyway.

[Rob Dylan]

It was something of a damp squib to say the least...

Funnily enough, those were Crofty's exact words when the session was over! Understatement of the weekend.

That was the first session I've watched live in a few weekends now, and my God was I bored. I'm agreeing with the sentiment that Q2 deserves a dishonourable mention at the very least.

[Enforcer]

Both Torro Rossos ded in one lap.

EDIT: Max gains 14 places in 8 laps. The gap between the top 3 and the rest is a chasm.

[Rob Dylan]

I hate to beat the dead horse that is team orders, but bathplug team orders

[good_Ralf]

I hate to beat the dead horse that is team orders, but bathplug team orders

Preach. My excitement for this season, which was sky-high at the start of the summer (it peaked around Austria for reference) is almost gone completely, and that switch by Merc might just have finished it off

[CarloSpace]

I don't understand why people are against team orders? It's a team sport and when one of your drivers is a chanpionship favourite switching the positions is the only sensible move. Good strategy and well played by Mercedes. I'm especially annoyed by the finniah commentators - if the situation would have been the other way around with Valtteri fighting for title, they would have demanded for him to get through since lap 1.

It's like Tour de France. When your teammate has le maillot jaune, everyone teammate will help the person, no questions asked. Why is it so different in motorsport?

[Nuppiz]

F**k you, Mercedes. I don't think that was necessary given the championship situation.

[mario]

I don't understand why people are against team orders? It's a team sport and when one of your drivers is a chanpionship favourite switching the positions is the only sensible move. Good strategy and well played by Mercedes. I'm especially annoyed by the finniah commentators - if the situation would have been the other way around with Valtteri fighting for title, they would have demanded for him to get through since lap 1.

It's like Tour de France. When your teammate has le maillot jaune, everyone teammate will help the person, no questions asked. Why is it so different in motorsport?

Mercedes had already talked about it in advance of the race, so the fact that they have used them is hardly surprising - it's also not surprising that Mercedes are using this as an opportunity to keep turning the screw on Vettel given that Vettel has been a bit error prone recently when under pressure.

It may not be popular, but I can understand why they did it - if anything, I am a little surprised that we've not seen it happen more often (for example, with Ferrari arguably being too slow to tell Kimi to move aside for Vettel in Germany - I wonder if perhaps memories of the Alonso-Massa switch many years ago might have been the reason for staying their hand there).

Furthermore, in some ways it is preferable to have a situation where the use of team orders is transparent rather than what we had in the past, where we had coded messages - alternatively, what is the betting that we would have moments such as 'conveniently' sticking wheel nuts or slow pit stops that let a team mate through instead?

Mind you, if you are going to impose team orders, I'm not sure that Mercedes did it that well anyway - they managed to create a situation with the first pit stops where Bottas kind of backed Hamilton into Vettel and very nearly cost him his place, creating the exact opposite result of what they would have wanted.

[Nuppiz]

Either Hamilton is putting up a performance worthy of an Academy Award, or he genuinely feels terrible about how he got the win. He looked and sounded like he was in a funeral in the post-race interviews.

[Rob Dylan]

Either Hamilton is putting up a performance worthy of an Academy Award, or he genuinely feels terrible about how he got the win. He looked and sounded like he was in a funeral in the post-race interviews.

Did he not outrightly say yesterday that he didn't want to get gifted the win, and was going to fight for it?

[girry]

I don't understand why people are against team orders? It's a team sport and when one of your drivers is a chanpionship favourite switching the positions is the only sensible move. Good strategy and well played by Mercedes. I'm especially annoyed by the finniah commentators - if the situation would have been the other way around with Valtteri fighting for title, they would have demanded for him to get through since lap 1.

It's like Tour de France. When your teammate has le maillot jaune, everyone teammate will help the person, no questions asked. Why is it so different in motorsport?

Given it's the WDC I would have been completely ok with all of it... if only Mercedes and its fans didn't precede this thing with years of ridiculing at Ferrari's direction over their policies, repeating the "we wouldn't resort to such brutal team orders" bull**** mantra in the media ad infinitum.

Not to mention their cowardly (even Ferrari-esquely) indirect way of failing to tell Bottas what the actual deal was - now they kinda kept him in false hope only to go "sorry mate" on the last lap.

It was not Hamilton's fault and he was a gracious winner, but Toto and Mercedes deserve every bit of criticism they get for how hypocritical they have been over the whole issue for a long time.

[mario]

Either Hamilton is putting up a performance worthy of an Academy Award, or he genuinely feels terrible about how he got the win. He looked and sounded like he was in a funeral in the post-race interviews.

I wouldn't be surprised if he does feel a bit awkward about it given that, as giraurd notes, the team have handled the whole thing in a bit of a clumsy way - I wonder if the fact that they very nearly gifted 2nd to Vettel was the reason why they chose to impose the orders when they did and in the way that they did.

We did also see how, in Hungary last year, Hamilton was prepared to hand back a position to Bottas at a time when he was trailing Vettel in the WDC, so I suspect that he would have been prepared to let Bottas win this time around given he would still have extended his lead in the WDC over Vettel.

[CarloSpace]

I don't understand why people are against team orders? It's a team sport and when one of your drivers is a chanpionship favourite switching the positions is the only sensible move. Good strategy and well played by Mercedes. I'm especially annoyed by the finniah commentators - if the situation would have been the other way around with Valtteri fighting for title, they would have demanded for him to get through since lap 1.

It's like Tour de France. When your teammate has le maillot jaune, everyone teammate will help the person, no questions asked. Why is it so different in motorsport?

Given it's the WDC I would have been completely ok with all of it... if only Mercedes and its fans didn't precede this thing with years of ridiculing at Ferrari's direction over their policies, repeating the "we wouldn't resort to such brutal team orders" bull**** mantra in the media ad infinitum.

Not to mention their cowardly (even Ferrari-esquely) indirect way of failing to tell Bottas what the actual deal was - now they kinda kept him in false hope only to go "sorry mate" on the last lap.

It was not Hamilton's fault and he was a gracious winner, but Toto and Mercedes deserve every bit of criticism they get for how hypocritical they have been over the whole issue for a long time.

I agree that the hypocrisy is a huge problem. And the fact that they hadn't, according to Bottas, had any talks regarding team orders prior to race is just rude towards your drivers and the fans. You could sense after the race that neither Valtteri or Lewis was particularly happy with the way it was dealt with. Had they laid out the rules clearly before the race in a way of "depending of the situation we will look into making sure Lewis gets the best possible results" or some jargon like that, there would be no need for Toto to feel like a badboy afterwards.

I just can't understand why there is so much stigma around team orders. Everyone knows it happens and everyone should acknowledge it is the most sensible thing to do in situations like these, why not talk about it openly and admit that "we will work as a team and sometimes that means that our #2 driver at the moment will have to make way to maximise our chances in both championships".

[Wallio]

I just can't understand why there is so much stigma around team orders. Everyone knows it happens and everyone should acknowledge it is the most sensible thing to do in situations like these, why not talk about it openly and admit that "we will work as a team and sometimes that means that our #2 driver at the moment will have to make way to maximise our chances in both championships".

This. I despise Hamilton, Wolf, and Mercedes, but I find myself in the minority as I am 100% ok with this. It's just smart business. And it's been going on since the '50s! I also don't understand why team orders are so taboo right now In the past there has been way less drama over them. Germany '99 Salo let Irvine by, and Eddie flat out said during the press conference that Mika was the actual winner and that he would give him the winner's trophy and make sure Ferrari paid him the winners bonus (which I believe happened IIRC). No one cared then. Why now all of a sudden? Let Bottas keep the trophy, bonus him the $500k or whatever is in his contract per win, and move on.

I also must say I'm (pleasantly) surprised by how much heat Hamilton/Wolf/Merc/Lauda/et al are getting over this. In most places on the internet, they literally can do no wrong, so to see them catching hell when they actually DIDN'T do anything wrong is quite funny.

[Bobby Doorknobs]

I just can't understand why there is so much stigma around team orders. Everyone knows it happens and everyone should acknowledge it is the most sensible thing to do in situations like these, why not talk about it openly and admit that "we will work as a team and sometimes that means that our #2 driver at the moment will have to make way to maximise our chances in both championships".

This. I despise Hamilton, Wolf, and Mercedes, but I find myself in the minority as I am 100% ok with this. It's just smart business. And it's been going on since the '50s! I also don't understand why team orders are so taboo right now In the past there has been way less drama over them. Germany '99 Salo let Irvine by, and Eddie flat out said during the press conference that Mika was the actual winner and that he would give him the winner's trophy and make sure Ferrari paid him the winners bonus (which I believe happened IIRC). No one cared then. Why now all of a sudden? Let Bottas keep the trophy, bonus him the $500k or whatever is in his contract per win, and move on.

I also must say I'm (pleasantly) surprised by how much heat Hamilton/Wolf/Merc/Lauda/et al are getting over this. In most places on the internet, they literally can do no wrong, so to see them catching hell when they actually DIDN'T do anything wrong is quite funny.

Although I also share your view on the use of team orders being perfectly legitimate, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it was never that unpopular considering the entire practice was banned for nearly a decade after the reaction to Ferrari's use of them in 2002. And I've definitely come across people who begrudge Ferrari to this day over Irvine's Hockenheim win.

[Wallio]

Although I also share your view on the use of team orders being perfectly legitimate, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it was never that unpopular considering the entire practice was banned for nearly a decade after the reaction to Ferrari's use of them in 2002. And I've definitely come across people who begrudge Ferrari to this day over Irvine's Hockenheim win.

I suppose I should have been more specific, yes Austria 2002 (and 2001) were both horribly unpopular, mostly because of how unnecessary they were. But before that? Generally, no one batted an eye. DC gives Mika a win? Nothing. Mansall and Patrese meet prior to races in '92 and decide the finishing order? Not a peep, outside of a tense press conference early on in the season.

And even after the ban, with the exception of Germany 2010, no one seemed to care either. Everyone forgets Kimi won his title by Ferrari holding Massa in the pits, IN BRAZIL to let Kimi around. But no, nothing. But Sunday happens and everyone loses their damn minds.

[Forester]

Although I also share your view on the use of team orders being perfectly legitimate, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it was never that unpopular considering the entire practice was banned for nearly a decade after the reaction to Ferrari's use of them in 2002. And I've definitely come across people who begrudge Ferrari to this day over Irvine's Hockenheim win.

I suppose I should have been more specific, yes Austria 2002 (and 2001) were both horribly unpopular, mostly because of how unnecessary they were. But before that? Generally, no one batted an eye. DC gives Mika a win? Nothing. Mansall and Patrese meet prior to races in '92 and decide the finishing order? Not a peep, outside of a tense press conference early on in the season.

And even after the ban, with the exception of Germany 2010, no one seemed to care either. Everyone forgets Kimi won his title by Ferrari holding Massa in the pits, IN BRAZIL to let Kimi around. But no, nothing. But Sunday happens and everyone loses their damn minds.

To weigh-in on someone else's conversation, I think there are other factors of play. I can't help but notice that the reception of team orders does vary depending on who the beneficiary is, whether that driver is altogether popular, and whether that driver is already the dominant force/has been for some time.

Take Malaysia 2013: Vettel outright defies a team order, but that team order was to 'benefit' Webber and Vettel had already won the previous three titles, so burn him. In the same race, Mercedes implement a team order to the benefit of Hamilton, but it was for third place and neither driver was in the middle of an ultra-dominant run of form or circumstances, so no-one much cared. (Also contrast Britain 2011: Webber attempts to defy a team order impemented to the benefit of Vettel, and was lauded to the stratosphere.)

It also follows years of holier than thou posturing from Mercedes, their fans, and the media (at least in the UK), for whom all team orders or similar are acceptable and logical if done by Mercedes, and are mere desparate attempts to prop up Vettel or mockeries of racing, or both, when done by Ferrari. David Coulthard claimed during this year's German GP that Mercedes don't do team orders; he made no comment an hour later, when they did just that. Also, the blow-up has not been wholly against Mercedes and is split, understandably, on partisan lines: a look at the BBC comments (and pundits) on this race finds that they are near-universal in their support for Mercedes and their wonderment for why anyone would question or be angry at their decision.

[Rob Dylan]

Take Malaysia 2013: Vettel outright defies a team order, but that team order was to 'benefit' Webber and Vettel had already won the previous three titles, so burn him. In the same race, Mercedes implement a team order to the benefit of Hamilton, but it was for third place and neither driver was in the middle of an ultra-dominant run of form or circumstances, so no-one much cared.

Obviously neither of us speak for everyone, but personally I was so much angrier at the Mercedes team orders than I was at the Red Bull team orders for that race.

Rosberg had spent three seasons at Mercedes as they had improved their car to become a race-winner, and eventually a championship winner later on down the line. The second race that Hamilton was put into the car, he was given preferential treatment. That is maybe the most upset I've ever been watching an F1 race. There are team orders and then there are team orders. I want to watch my favourite drivers race for their positions, and if team orders are put in place, make them a last resort as an all-in for a championship challenge. Theory and practice, team orders are necessary, I know. But Christ, 2013 Malaysia made me wonder why I was bothering with the sport.

Ok rant over.

[Nuppiz]

Having cooled off, I have to agree the team order was a sensible decision after all. It does give them a bit of cushion and with five races and a maximum of 125 points still to go, the title fight isn't technically over yet.

However, there are a number of factors which make it easy to understand why people are irritated by all this. First off is of course the ever-increasing likelihood of the titles yet again going to Mercedes and Lewis, which is starting to be somewhat tiresome for many. Second, Valtteri is an immensely popular guy and genuinely deserved that win by generally being faster than Lewis throughout the race, and let's not forget that Valtteri already lost one win this year through no fault of his own. Thirdly, the way how clumsily the whole matter was dealt with, from claimed tyre blisters to apologetic radio messages, put a real damper on the mood of everyone - including both of the Merc drivers. Post-race celebrations were so muted that it was almost as if someone had died during the race.

In conclusion, the general outrage aimed at Mercedes right now is not really because of the team order alone, but rather it's a sum of a number of factors. The team order wasn't a wrong decision, but it was poorly executed in controversial circumstances.