2022 Discussion Thread

[Alextrax52]

This really annoyed me after the race.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/f1-ceo-s ... ympathise/

Of course it was these two who came out and sympathised with them . I know Hamilton clarified things afterwards in an Instagram post saying he didn’t agree with how it was done but that’s not the point. By initially saying “we need more people like them” you run the risk of encouraging more protest groups to disrupt sporting events everywhere. We all condemned Extinction Rebellion when giving out ROTR nominations and in a morbid way we got lucky there was a red flag. That won’t happen Everytime.

Again we’ve said it before, Hamilton and Vettel have done many a good thing in the last 2 years but there are occasions where it’s best to either call it as it is or just keep your mouth shut and to me this was one of them.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

This really annoyed me after the race.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/f1-ceo-s ... ympathise/

Of course it was these two who came out and sympathised with them . I know Hamilton clarified things afterwards in an Instagram post saying he didn’t agree with how it was done but that’s not the point. By initially saying “we need more people like them” you run the risk of encouraging more protest groups to disrupt sporting events everywhere. We all condemned Extinction Rebellion when giving out ROTR nominations and in a morbid way we got lucky there was a red flag. That won’t happen Everytime.

Again we’ve said it before, Hamilton and Vettel have done many a good thing in the last 2 years but there are occasions where it’s best to either call it as it is or just keep your mouth shut and to me this was one of them.

I just think Lewis is, at most, guilty of poor wording. All three of the drivers quoted in the piece you linked basically said 'agree with their concerns, just don't jump on an F1 track, it's dangerous'. Lewis did add 'need more like them', but to me it seemed clear that he meant people who are properly concerned about climate change. They were dumb to even try it and we got lucky no one was killed. I seem to remember the police tweeted before the race that they had intelligence that this was going to happen, pity they didn't have enough intelligence to station enough officers to prevent it.

[Paul Hayes]

Wow! That has to be the most unexpected pole for a while! Well done George!

[Paul Hayes]

It's almost as if Ferrari are doing it on purpose now, isn't it?

Weird to have a race where Verstappen was such an unexpected winner!

Great to have a three-team battle. Let's hope it continues through the rest of the season after the summer break!

[Klon]

Always remember the wise words of a great man: "You win championships in spite of Ferrari, not because of Ferrari".

[Enforcer]

They're approaching self-parody stage now, though.

[Bleu]

Ferrari tactics

Plan A is awful
Plan B is blunder
Plan C is catastrophe
Plan D is disaster

[Belegur]

That weekend was so bad for Alonso he went and signed up for another team. Aston Martin from 2023 onwards. Do you think the team knew about it beforehand? Can't imagine they wouldn't use team orders if Fernando was their lead driver for the future.

[dinizintheoven]

Today's F1 news is brought to you by the letters W, T and F.

Meanwhile, over the summer break, Ferrari announces its intention to race in blue next year, Sebastian Vettel enlists in the Russian army, Tony Fernandes buys Mercedes and rebrands it as Fondmetal Team Brackley, the South African Grand Prix is revived for 2023 and is held in Uganda, Daniel Ricciardo gets some personal sponsorship from the same Turkish dentist that "fixed" Katie Price, Formula E allows diesel-electric hybrids for the Gen4 rules, some tech nerds in San Francisco (paying $1200 per month to live in a youth hostel) create a deepfake of Murray Walker which is fast enough and accurate enough to be used in real time so that he can return to commentary - but the deepfake chooses to commentate on golf instead, and finally, Yuki Tsunoda goes through puberty.

[Vassago]

That weekend was so bad for Alonso he went and signed up for another team. Aston Martin from 2023 onwards. Do you think the team knew about it beforehand? Can't imagine they wouldn't use team orders if Fernando was their lead driver for the future.

I think they had to. That would explain Ocon racing Alonso like he wasn't his teammate in Hungary. I think Vettel could have told Alonso in advance that he's leaving so Alonso would seek getting the AM job. I bet the paddock has to know all about the Piastri rumours and Alpine was unwilling to keep him on the bench for more than one season.

[Paul Hayes]

I don't really understand why Alonso has signed for Aston Martin. I can only think that Alpine must have decided that, for whatever reason, they didn't want him for next year. Even if Aston improve dramatically, they surely won't be any further ahead than Alpine next year?

Of course it could be a longer-term bet, but sadly for Alonso none of those he's taken over the past decade or more have come off.

Maybe he doesn't care where he is, and just enjoys being on the grid for the sake of it.

[James1978]

Definitely didn't see that one coming. Though it's a sideways move at best for Alonso me thinks.

[dr-baker]

Today's F1 news is brought to you by the letters W, T and F.

Meanwhile, over the summer break, Ferrari announces its intention to race in blue next year, Sebastian Vettel enlists in the Russian army, Tony Fernandes buys Mercedes and rebrands it as Fondmetal Team Brackley, the South African Grand Prix is revived for 2023 and is held in Uganda, Daniel Ricciardo gets some personal sponsorship from the same Turkish dentist that "fixed" Katie Price, Formula E allows diesel-electric hybrids for the Gen4 rules, some tech nerds in San Francisco (paying $1200 per month to live in a youth hostel) create a deepfake of Murray Walker which is fast enough and accurate enough to be used in real time so that he can return to commentary - but the deepfake chooses to commentate on golf instead, and finally, Yuki Tsunoda goes through puberty.

Well, Murray may not have commentate in golf, but he did do a little bit of snooker: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zl-oAsDCGNA

And a blue Ferrari? The 1964 US and Mexican Grands Prix called. They asked if you had heard of the North American Racing Team?

[mario]

I don't really understand why Alonso has signed for Aston Martin. I can only think that Alpine must have decided that, for whatever reason, they didn't want him for next year. Even if Aston improve dramatically, they surely won't be any further ahead than Alpine next year?

Of course it could be a longer-term bet, but sadly for Alonso none of those he's taken over the past decade or more have come off.

Maybe he doesn't care where he is, and just enjoys being on the grid for the sake of it.

There have been reports that Alonso was looking for a multi-year deal from Alpine, but they only offered a one year deal. By contrast, Aston Martin appear to have offered Alonso the type of deal he wanted (either two or three years, depending on the sources, but with a break clause at the end of each year if they wanted to part ways early).

That does seem to tie in with the suggestion that the terms of Piastri's contract with Alpine stipulate they either have to find him a seat for 2023, or release him from his contract. I don't know if they forced Alonso out, went for the more subtle approach of offering terms they knew he was unlikely to accept, or genuinely did want Alonso to stay and miscalculated with their offer - but given Alonso's solved their problem of what to do with Piastri, whilst leaving on amicable terms, I don't think they'll be too disappointed with the outcome.

As for why Alonso might want to move - well, Aston Martin's terms seem to be more to his liking (i.e. a multi-year contract) and he probably takes the attitude that, if he can continue to enjoy himself for a bit longer, then why not continue racing if somebody will offer him a seat?

[dinizintheoven]

And a blue Ferrari? The 1964 US and Mexican Grands Prix called. They asked if you had heard of the North American Racing Team?

...which is exactly what I was thinking of...

...initially, then switched to a Ferrari in early 1990s Ligier Bleu de France. That'd put a few noses even more out of joint than Alain Prost's.

[dr-baker]

And a blue Ferrari? The 1964 US and Mexican Grands Prix called. They asked if you had heard of the North American Racing Team?

...which is exactly what I was thinking of...

...initially, then switched to a Ferrari in early 1990s Ligier Bleu de France. That'd put a few noses even more out of joint than Alain Prost's.

Seeing a Williams in red is still odd.

[James1978]

Also given that the team that originally started out as Jordan has through several iterations now came to be Aston Martin, it's like they've gone full circle back to their original green livery

[Paul Hayes]

Well that was exciting, once it finally got going… and if you could work out who was actually going to end up where!

[James1978]

Unless he gets tripped over at the start, I still think Max will win from 15th. 3 cars will jump out of the way for him, and can't see anyone else apart from maybe Sainz being able to hold him up.

And I can't see Mercedes winning a race this year based on that qualifying performance.

[Spectoremg]

Is it officially the Bus Stop again or is it Croft being a richard?

[Nessafox]

Is it officially the Bus Stop again or is it Croft being a richard?

It isn't changed back, but the old name just keeps sticking around due to the locals and the nostalgics. (just like how locals still call speakers corner rivage or beau rivage, including me)

[Spectoremg]

Imagine, a teammate spinning out to ruin anyone elses chance of a pole. Spooky.

[dr-baker]

That red flag at the startof Q2 is about the most random red flag I have ever seen in F1. A flare and the pigeons!

And great to see so many McLaren fans at Zandvoort. Wait, what do you mean, the papaya orange is for the driver of a rival team?

[Spectoremg]

Flares, abuse of other fans, and Dutch football hooligans amongst the worst in Europe. Is there a link??

[mario]

So, given that the idea of a Porsche-Red Bull partnership was meant to have been an open secret for such a long time, Porsche have now confirmed that they are pulling out of negotiations with Red Bull. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pors ... /10365982/

The deal breaker seems to be the fact that Porsche did not just want to become an engine partner with Red Bull, but also wanted to have a 50% stake in the team and be treated as an equal partner with Red Bull. That doesn't seem to have been something that Red Bull wanted - and, although Horner has dismissed the allegations, there are claims that Horner was trying to stop the deal going ahead because Porsche wanted to fire him and replace him with Seidl.

Although Porsche claim that they are still interested, with Porsche having backed away now, I expect that there will be increased speculation over Audi's commitment to the sport. Whilst Audi might have committed to entering in 2026, the rumoured deal between Audi and Sauber doesn't seem to have been concluded yet, and the failure of the Red Bull-Porsche talks may now raise questions over whether the Audi deal will go ahead as well.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

So, given that the idea of a Porsche-Red Bull partnership was meant to have been an open secret for such a long time, Porsche have now confirmed that they are pulling out of negotiations with Red Bull. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pors ... /10365982/

The deal breaker seems to be the fact that Porsche did not just want to become an engine partner with Red Bull, but also wanted to have a 50% stake in the team and be treated as an equal partner with Red Bull. That doesn't seem to have been something that Red Bull wanted - and, although Horner has dismissed the allegations, there are claims that Horner was trying to stop the deal going ahead because Porsche wanted to fire him and replace him with Seidl.

Although Porsche claim that they are still interested, with Porsche having backed away now, I expect that there will be increased speculation over Audi's commitment to the sport. Whilst Audi might have committed to entering in 2026, the rumoured deal between Audi and Sauber doesn't seem to have been concluded yet, and the failure of the Red Bull-Porsche talks may now raise questions over whether the Audi deal will go ahead as well.

Was I the only one who thought it would never work. An established operation of that size and they expected a full 50% share? It seems clear that Red Bull only ever wanted to offer an engine licensing deal for a large sum of money. That said, I hope the Audi thing works out with Sauber, considering it looks like Alfa will be pulling out. That honestly looks like a more realistic deal than a Red Bull Porsche. But maybe I'm not getting it, I'm happy to be disabused of these notions.

[IceG]

Just got round to watching the race. Missed it live because I was near Monza doing something else.

Some observations:

Latifi just seems to be have lost all motivation. Seems he know he is out at the end of the season (or sooner) and is not trying, unlike...

Mick Schumacher is obviously keen to retain or gain a drive, nice work based on what I saw.

Was good to see Ricciardo being competetive but hearing him be asked to facilitate Norris' race was painful. Hope he gets a good drive for 2023 and does not end up as a might-have been by constant team hoping (see Alonso - talking of which...)

Just what is going on at Aston Martin? Perhaps they are "concentrating on next year's car" as the usual excuse goes?

Devries was solid and unperturbed, clearly ready for a seat, and that Williams is quite quick when there are no corners about.

The Ferrari pit team seem to have lost all confidence and are relying on their excellent drivers to think about multiple tyre strategies and options while driving at 330kph - something fundamental has to change in that organisation for them to realistically challenge for a driver or manufacturer championship.

Mercedes just need a little more radical thinking and they will be getting wins. They are clearly a better team/driver/car package than everyone except Red Bull.

Verstappen was awesome.

[mario]

So, given that the idea of a Porsche-Red Bull partnership was meant to have been an open secret for such a long time, Porsche have now confirmed that they are pulling out of negotiations with Red Bull. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pors ... /10365982/

The deal breaker seems to be the fact that Porsche did not just want to become an engine partner with Red Bull, but also wanted to have a 50% stake in the team and be treated as an equal partner with Red Bull. That doesn't seem to have been something that Red Bull wanted - and, although Horner has dismissed the allegations, there are claims that Horner was trying to stop the deal going ahead because Porsche wanted to fire him and replace him with Seidl.

Although Porsche claim that they are still interested, with Porsche having backed away now, I expect that there will be increased speculation over Audi's commitment to the sport. Whilst Audi might have committed to entering in 2026, the rumoured deal between Audi and Sauber doesn't seem to have been concluded yet, and the failure of the Red Bull-Porsche talks may now raise questions over whether the Audi deal will go ahead as well.

Was I the only one who thought it would never work. An established operation of that size and they expected a full 50% share? It seems clear that Red Bull only ever wanted to offer an engine licensing deal for a large sum of money. That said, I hope the Audi thing works out with Sauber, considering it looks like Alfa will be pulling out. That honestly looks like a more realistic deal than a Red Bull Porsche. But maybe I'm not getting it, I'm happy to be disabused of these notions.

I don't think it is unreasonable for Porsche to have thought that might have been on the table - there have been some rumours that Mateschitz has not been in great health this year, given his advanced age, and that he was considering the option of selling a stake in the team to allow him to step back from his role as a director. Those claims are quite speculative, but if there is any truth to those rumours, that might explain why Porsche could have thought the option for a stake of that size was there.

That said, I know that some figures, such as Joe Saward, have wondered if the whole process was more about VW wanting to create more of a buzz around Porsche ahead of the planned IPO for Porsche later this year, with the aim of pumping up the value of that deal, bringing the seriousness of Porsche's negotiations with Red Bull into question.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

I don't think it is unreasonable for Porsche to have thought that might have been on the table - there have been some rumours that Mateschitz has not been in great health this year, given his advanced age, and that he was considering the option of selling a stake in the team to allow him to step back from his role as a director. Those claims are quite speculative, but if there is any truth to those rumours, that might explain why Porsche could have thought the option for a stake of that size was there.

That said, I know that some figures, such as Joe Saward, have wondered if the whole process was more about VW wanting to create more of a buzz around Porsche ahead of the planned IPO for Porsche later this year, with the aim of pumping up the value of that deal, bringing the seriousness of Porsche's negotiations with Red Bull into question.

I didn't know that Mateschitz has been in poor health, so I guess it makes some sense. But if Porsche was in any way serious about firing Horner and replacing him with Seidl, I can see why the deal was scuppered. I'm sure Horner and Marko would have been fighting tooth and nail against such a possibility, and they're in a good position sitting atop the drivers and constructors championships at the moment.

[MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx]

2023 calendar unveiled: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/formul ... eason.html

A recordbreaking 24 events-we're getting close to one every other week now.
*Las Vegas joins the fray(the first Grand Prix since 1985 I believe not to actually take place on a Sunday) becoming the first country since 1982 to host three races(that was the US too)
*China and Qatar both return. Monaco is in for sure after some doubts.France disappeared so my eyes can save themselves from those weird optical illusion things they've covered the track with*
*Between April 30 and July 30 there are only four weekends that don't have a race!

2023 FORMULA 1 — RACE CALENDAR
BAHRAIN March 5
SAUDI ARABIA March 19
AUSTRALIA April 2
CHINA April 16
AZERBAIJAN April 30
MIAMI May 7
EMILIA ROMAGNA May 21
MONACO May 28
SPAIN June 4
CANADA June 18
AUSTRIA July 2
UNITED KINGDOM July 9
HUNGARY July 23
BELGIUM July 30
NETHERLANDS August 27
ITALY September 3
SINGAPORE September 17
JAPAN September 24
QATAR October 8
USA October 22
MEXICO October 29
BRAZIL November 5
LAS VEGAS November 18
ABU DHABI November 26

[RAK]

I can think of six of those I'd cut out immediately, most of them in the Middle East, but Miami and Las Vegas are the ne plus ultra of tacky US destinations.

[dr-baker]

So we start with 6 flyaway races, we end with 8 flyaways, and we have Canada in the middle of the European stint. Back in the "good old days," that would have been a full season of races right there, without any European races...

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

I agree with RAK that I'd happily lose all of the Repressive Regime GP's right off the top. That said, I don't get fatigued with watching too many races. How many matches do typical football (soccer) fans watch in a year? My problems with more races are that half of those being added in the last few years and coming in the future are/will be in association with repressive governments. Additionally, the stress of doing more races falls disproportionately on lower-level employees, and it increases the environmental impact of the series. The last two can be mitigated with reasonable steps, and the first could be fixed with a reduction in greed from the commercial rights holder. If those are addressed, I'm happy with 24 races or maybe even more than that.

Specifically speaking, not being able to group the races regionally to minimize transportation issues (and thus causing more environmental impact) is a problem with the schedule as it sits for next year. It's a shame that Canada is in the middle of the European season, but unfortunately you need to be in Canada in Summer, and I really like Canada being on the schedule.

Miami is a similar problem in not fitting in. Also don't love Miami's vibe (that stupid fake marina could have been a grandstand that seated five times the people at a quarter of the price, but fine whatever).

The problem as it sits now isn't the number of races. If we, as fans, had the power to say 'that's too many races, lose 4 of them', the first one off the list will be Belgium and the next 3 would be the next 3 least-profitable races. They definitely won't be the ones most of us want to see gone.

So all that said, I'm totally open to what types of actions we can take to make things better, so any ideas would be appreciated.

[Wallio]

I am curious if we will finally get 23 GPs in a year next year. 2020/2021/2022 all have had a "record-breaking 23 race schedule" then.....never did lol. We certainly won't hit 24, as I'd bet dollars to donuts that China won't happen. And depending on how the Azerbaijan/Armenia conflict goes, Baku could be bye-bye too. Paul Ricard should be on stand-by.

I'm less against Vegas as I was, if for no other reason than I have had no less than three friends, who don't watch any racing much less F1, text me since the schedule release with variations of "Yo dude, you watch F1, you goin'? I'd split a hotel." So the initial reaction here in the US seems to have reached non-fans much better than Miami ever did. And hopefully, if Vegas takes off, we drop that abomination sooner than later.

[Alextrax52]

How on earth is Jeddah still on the calendar? I hope all 20 drivers just flat out refuse to go there after what happened this year. China will be a pretty grim event too given they’re hell bent on achieving the impossible of zero COVID.

Also for a series wanting to be carbon neutral by 2030, having Baku/Miami and Las Vegas/Abu Dhabi as double headers seems a strange way to getting there. Almost like it’s all mouth and no trousers like a lot of things with F1 right now.

[mario]

How on earth is Jeddah still on the calendar? I hope all 20 drivers just flat out refuse to go there after what happened this year. China will be a pretty grim event too given they’re hell bent on achieving the impossible of zero COVID.

Also for a series wanting to be carbon neutral by 2030, having Baku/Miami and Las Vegas/Abu Dhabi as double headers seems a strange way to getting there. Almost like it’s all mouth and no trousers like a lot of things with F1 right now.

If the situation is similar to last year, there will probably be quite a lot of pressure from both Liberty Media and from the FIA on the drivers to continue going to Saudi Arabia.

For Liberty Media, the siren call of the fees paid by the Saudi's for the race will be rather hard to resist, particularly given the sport still has a rather large debt load from Bernie's days in charge and from the covid-19 pandemic. Cynically speaking, they may also be taking the attitude that, given the criticism of F1's forays to Bahrain after the repression of the protests in Bahrain petered out after the race, they may believe they can simply brazen out the criticism and that it will eventually die down if they ignore it for long enough.

Asides from the race itself, Saudi Aramco also sponsors the sport as a whole - the 10 year deal has an estimated cumulative value of $450 million - and also sponsors the Aston Martin team. Saudi Aramco has also promised to develop synthetic fuels for Formula 1, as well as for Formula 2 and Formula 3 - something which seems to have not only helped as a selling point to the VW Group, who were known to be interested in that technology, but also helps improve the image of the sport.

Dropping the race might antagonise the Saudi's into dropping the Saudi Aramco deals - deals which not only provide a substantial income stream for the sport, but now also create a technical dependency for those synthetic fuel blends. That technical dependency is a particular problem when Formula 2 and Formula 3 are already partially switching to synthetic fuel blends in 2023, with fully synthetic fuel blends expected to come in from 2024.

As for the FIA, Mohammed bin Sulayem probably has more concerns than just the technical dependency of the deals with Saudi Aramco for synthetic fuels. One of his strongest areas of support is the block of Middle Eastern motorsport clubs, and the aggressive pivot that the current Crown Prince has made towards motorsport - think not just of F1, but of events such as the Dakar Rally - does also seem to have coincided with an increase in importance of the Saudi Arabians within that political block.

From a political point of view, Sulayem might not want to antagonise the Saudi's with the possibility that the race might be cancelled - and we know that he played a very active part in "advising" the drivers not to go ahead with a strike when that prospect was discussed earlier this year.

[Har1MAS1415]

2023 calendar unveiled: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/formul ... eason.html

A recordbreaking 24 events-we're getting close to one every other week now.
*Las Vegas joins the fray(the first Grand Prix since 1985 I believe not to actually take place on a Sunday) becoming the first country since 1982 to host three races(that was the US too)
*China and Qatar both return. Monaco is in for sure after some doubts.France disappeared so my eyes can save themselves from those weird optical illusion things they've covered the track with*
*Between April 30 and July 30 there are only four weekends that don't have a race!

2023 FORMULA 1 — RACE CALENDAR
BAHRAIN March 5
SAUDI ARABIA March 19
AUSTRALIA April 2
CHINA April 16
AZERBAIJAN April 30
MIAMI May 7
EMILIA ROMAGNA May 21
MONACO May 28
SPAIN June 4
CANADA June 18
AUSTRIA July 2
UNITED KINGDOM July 9
HUNGARY July 23
BELGIUM July 30
NETHERLANDS August 27
ITALY September 3
SINGAPORE September 17
JAPAN September 24
QATAR October 8
USA October 22
MEXICO October 29
BRAZIL November 5
LAS VEGAS November 18
ABU DHABI November 26

My sentiments exactly with regards to the opening sentence.

[dr-baker]

Early contender for ROTR for FIA regulations having illogical consequences.

[IceG]

I wonder if Porsche's sudden change of direction was informed by the cost cap speculation?

If a team were heavily penalised for a significant breach of the cost regulations it would have a material impact of their competitiveness over the coming years, the team's material value, and the kind of reputational damage that would cause engineering talent to leave.

It would also call into question whether the historic achievements of any such team were valid and whether they should stand. Imagine if team X had all their constructor and driver points removed for the 2021 season, and that the points across the season were then reallocated in a manner which changed the outcome of, say, the WDC, even if the former winning driver's team was not guilty of any cost cap breach?

Yikes!

[Har1MAS1415]

I wonder if Porsche's sudden change of direction was informed by the cost cap speculation?

If a team were heavily penalised for a significant breach of the cost regulations it would have a material impact of their competitiveness over the coming years, the team's material value, and the kind of reputational damage that would cause engineering talent to leave.

It would also call into question whether the historic achievements of any such team were valid and whether they should stand. Imagine if team X had all their constructor and driver points removed for the 2021 season, and that the points across the season were then reallocated in a manner which changed the outcome of, say, the WDC, even if the former winning driver's team was not guilty of any cost cap breach?

Yikes!

That certainly could have been a decisive factor in Porsche's decision making to a certain degree.