2010 Chinese Grand Prix Discussion

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 17 Apr 2010, 11:54

Catching up with qualy on iPlayer now. Tell you what, Liuzzi is going to need to produce something special to escape ROTR...

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 17 Apr 2010, 13:18

Slightly off topic but is anyone else a bit frustrated that Q3 is so short?

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 17 Apr 2010, 13:31

The first time i've ever wanted to see a Force India not do well as I didn't want to Sutil to knock Barrichello out in Q2. Glad to see the HRT cars not too far off the Lotuses and the Virgins.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 17 Apr 2010, 13:38

redbulljack14 wrote:The first time i've ever wanted to see a Force India not do well as I didn't want to Sutil to knock Barrichello out in Q2. Glad to see the HRT cars not too far off the Lotuses and the Virgins.

Man's got a decent avatar and says nice things.

Dear Mark Webber,

Please ram Mr Vettel out of turn 1.

Best,

Carlos

Post by **mario** » 17 Apr 2010, 13:56

Time to throw a few figures into the discussion, since there are a few interesting things to note.
Firstly, Vettel was gaining the most time in sector 3 against his rivals - he was surprisingly quick on the back straight, and picked up 0.15s there over Rosberg (the next fastest in that sector). Webber is matching him measure for measure in the first two sectors, but the fact that Vettel was picking up 4kph over him on the back straight indicates that either Mark is running a fraction more wing, or Vettel is getting a cleaner exit onto the back straight. Either way, Webber is losing time in that sector - he is 0.25s off Vettel there.
Rosberg is surprisingly strong in sectors 1 and 3, but weaker in sector 2 (losing 0.2s to Webber in that sector), which is the most technical part of the circuit. Schumacher is virtually as fast as Rosberg in that sector, but he loses out big time in sector 1 (over 0.3s) and sector 3 (another 0.2s). I wonder if this is connected to the fact that Mercedes are trying out a new rear wing, which is running a preliminary F-duct? Rosberg is using the old wing, and Schumacher the new wing.
Anyway, here are the sector times:

As an aside, here is the speed trap data. It looks as if there is nothing wrong with the Cosworth unit in terms of grunt - it is the Williams duo who top the speed trap on the back straight, and Rubens is pretty handy in the sector speed traps too. The HRT is also mightily quick on the straights (5th and 8th fastest) - but then again, they probably lack so much downforce that they probably have very little drag...

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 17 Apr 2010, 15:00

Thanks for that Mario ... some interesting food for thought there ...

watka · Post by **watka** » 17 Apr 2010, 15:37

Have to say that McLaren seem to be Q3 chokers this season. Not only are they quickest often in the free practices, they are often the quickest in Q1 and 2, but they just haven't been able to challenge Red Bull. I don't think their tactics in qualifying made much sense either. They brought Hamilton in for a pit lane pit stop befire his final run in Q3, so that he could be sent out quickly. For his last qualifying lap, he crossed the line about 15 seconds before the flag dropped, but didn't do another lap, and therefore missed out on any advantage of being last on track.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 17 Apr 2010, 16:41

watka wrote:Have to say that McLaren seem to be Q3 chokers this season. Not only are they quickest often in the free practices, they are often the quickest in Q1 and 2, but they just haven't been able to challenge Red Bull. I don't think their tactics in qualifying made much sense either. They brought Hamilton in for a pit lane pit stop befire his final run in Q3, so that he could be sent out quickly. For his last qualifying lap, he crossed the line about 15 seconds before the flag dropped, but didn't do another lap, and therefore missed out on any advantage of being last on track.

And Button crossed the line at the end of his last flyer with about 2 seconds to go and didn't do another flyer...

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 17 Apr 2010, 17:03

dr-baker wrote:
watka wrote:Have to say that McLaren seem to be Q3 chokers this season. Not only are they quickest often in the free practices, they are often the quickest in Q1 and 2, but they just haven't been able to challenge Red Bull. I don't think their tactics in qualifying made much sense either. They brought Hamilton in for a pit lane pit stop befire his final run in Q3, so that he could be sent out quickly. For his last qualifying lap, he crossed the line about 15 seconds before the flag dropped, but didn't do another lap, and therefore missed out on any advantage of being last on track.

And Button crossed the line at the end of his last flyer with about 2 seconds to go and didn't do another flyer...

Both were on the softer rubber, and the tyres were probably toast after 1 flyer. I don't think those laps would have produced a better result, to be honest.

Williams still struggling. You can see, really can, that the car struggles to point its nose into corners. What the heck went wrong?

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 17 Apr 2010, 17:29

CarlosFerreira wrote:Williams still struggling. You can see, really can, that the car struggles to point its nose into corners. What the heck went wrong?

Who knows, as long as it ends soon. How much would Barrichello have loved to have knocked Schumacher out at Q2?

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 17 Apr 2010, 17:31

redbulljack14 wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:Williams still struggling. You can see, really can, that the car struggles to point its nose into corners. What the heck went wrong?

Who knows, as long as it ends soon. How much would Barrichello have loved to have knocked Schumacher out at Q2?

3 tenths or so, wasn't it? Old cello would have been over the moon, I'm sure. There is something wrong with the Williams package, it's plain to see. Come on lads, sort it out!

Post by **mario** » 17 Apr 2010, 18:53

CarlosFerreira wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:Williams still struggling. You can see, really can, that the car struggles to point its nose into corners. What the heck went wrong?

Who knows, as long as it ends soon. How much would Barrichello have loved to have knocked Schumacher out at Q2?

3 tenths or so, wasn't it? Old cello would have been over the moon, I'm sure. There is something wrong with the Williams package, it's plain to see. Come on lads, sort it out!

Closer to 3 hundreths between Rubens and Schumacher - Rubens must have been gritting his teeth when he realised that, but the FW32 doesn't look quite up to the job. I think that it is the same old problem that Williams have had for a long time now, which is a lack of downforce.
Coupled to that, it could also be the case that they made the same mistake as Mercedes have made with their car, and misjudged the weight distribution that they would need in order to get the most of the tyres (Brawn has admitted that Mercedes shifted the weight bias too far rearwards, overestimating the effect of the new front tyres).

Marco · Post by **Marco** » 17 Apr 2010, 20:47

mario wrote:Rosberg is using the old wing, and Schumacher the new wing.

Nope. The Schu said this after quali, but he was wrong, both had the same wing.

crazydude1992 · Post by **crazydude1992** » 18 Apr 2010, 07:14

Hamilton

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 18 Apr 2010, 07:22

Rain: Weather I can believe in.

Current ROTR candidates: Virgin, Sauber, Alonso, those fools that pitted too many times

IdeFan · Post by **IdeFan** » 18 Apr 2010, 07:24

My RotR leader right now is Hamilton, lots of dodgy driving in the pit lane entrance.

Edit: As if in response, Lewis just passed two people in one corner!

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 18 Apr 2010, 07:26

This is awesome

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 18 Apr 2010, 07:34

This is the perfect amount of rain to screw with everyone.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 18 Apr 2010, 07:36

This is good racing, I wonder if Petrov can stay in the top 4.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 18 Apr 2010, 07:45

WTF is with the safety car?

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 18 Apr 2010, 07:47

Looks like it's for debris. What it has done is obliterated Button/Rosberg/Kubica's advantage and brought Schumacher, Hamilton and the Red Bulls right back into it.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 18 Apr 2010, 07:49

eytl wrote:Looks like it's for debris. What it has done is obliterated Button/Rosberg/Kubica's advantage and brought Schumacher, Hamilton and the Red Bulls right back into it.

F1's been Dale Juniored!

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 18 Apr 2010, 07:53

And we are racing again!

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 18 Apr 2010, 08:10

Petrov does his interpretation of Ice Skating and continues.
And boy was that restart messy.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 18 Apr 2010, 08:13

Wizzie wrote:Petrov does his interpretation of Ice Skating and continues.
And boy was that restart messy.

Button broke the rules. He slowed down too much. This race is the stewards' nightmare. Issues everywhere.

IdeFan · Post by **IdeFan** » 18 Apr 2010, 08:16

I think Lewis Hamilton is going for the "How many times can you bother the stewards in one race" record!

Edit: Lewis now a few seconds behind Jenson, both on new inters, good for the end of the race - the battle is joined. If Lewis can poach this one off Jenson then that'll be a major psychological victory considering how far behind he was, even after the safety car he had to pass a hell of a lot of cars.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 18 Apr 2010, 08:19

Adrian Sutil's pit crew has completely shattered his race.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 18 Apr 2010, 08:51

Fair enough I suppose - Button made the right calls.

"What a victory! Ye-uh!"

IdeFan · Post by **IdeFan** » 18 Apr 2010, 09:14

It is very much a mirror of the Aussie race for Mclaren. Jenson makes a risky but ultimately correct tyre call early in the race to hit the front, Lewis makes the wrong call but makes up for it with some absolutely brilliant overtaking and impressive pace. Well impressed by both of them.

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 18 Apr 2010, 09:16

OK that race was chaotic.

Will have to rewatch before writing the review! So many talking points and issues emerging. And, might I say, a tough decision for ROTR coming up ...

Post by **mario** » 18 Apr 2010, 09:57

eytl wrote:OK that race was chaotic.

Will have to rewatch before writing the review! So many talking points and issues emerging. And, might I say, a tough decision for ROTR coming up ...

And given that the stewards are going to be working overtime, I would hold back on the review until they have made their minds up.
Well, that was a bit of a mess at times, and we've had a few drivers getting a little over aggressive at times. I expect that there will be a lot of debate afterwards about who is in the right and in the wrong. Certainly, if things continue as they are with this volcano in Iceland, they won't be going anywhere fast and will have plenty of time to talk this one over.

Archie2K · Post by **Archie2K** » 18 Apr 2010, 09:58

Right so do we now have a situation where for a certain intensity of rain it is too wet for slicks and too dry for inters?

IdeFan · Post by **IdeFan** » 18 Apr 2010, 10:01

Archie2K wrote:Right so do we now have a situation where for a certain intensity of rain it is too wet for slicks and too dry for inters?

I think the answer to that question is "depends how long you've been on the inters". When everyone pitted for inters first time around it was clearly too dry, Nico and Jenson seemed to get on just fine on slicks. Towards the end of the race it was probably too dry for inters, so they wore them out, then right at the death the rain picked up and it was inter weather, but cos theyd worn them out they had no tread left.

So basically on fresh rubber theres always a tyre to suit, worn rubber is a different matter.

mediocre · Post by **mediocre** » 18 Apr 2010, 10:03

The best overtaking point on the Chinese circuit seems to be the pit lane entry.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 18 Apr 2010, 10:08

thehemogoblin wrote:
eytl wrote:Looks like it's for debris. What it has done is obliterated Button/Rosberg/Kubica's advantage and brought Schumacher, Hamilton and the Red Bulls right back into it.

F1's been Dale Juniored!

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 18 Apr 2010, 11:39

Not only did the Maccas seem intent on keeping Wurz & Co (stewards) busy but their false neutral problem seemed to evaporate. Can't see the advantage in it but.....sandbagging?........curious....

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 18 Apr 2010, 12:05

WOW! What A Race!
It had all the ingredients that were supposed to make 2010 an exciting year (except Schumacher winning, but hey: they can't all be winners, can they?). We saw overtaking in the dry and in the rain, overtaking in the pits, different strategies, everything you would want to see in a F1 race. OK, there was the threat of rain right from the start, but the first half of the race was still run on a dry track and it was as exciting as the second half. And Button made a pass for the lead in the dry! When was the last time you saw that happen?

McLaren are the big winners today. They confirmed their potential and are the third team to score a double (although Hamilton could still be penalised) after only 4 races, thus confirming the competitiveness of the 2010 field - and the fact that each team has different strengths and weaknesses.
Button is now leading the championship and is in an increasingly good position to defend his crown. Will we see him dominate in the future, after many years of inconsistent performances? Is he the new Mika Hakkinen, achieving brilliance towards the end of his career? So far, he engourages comparaison to another of his great predecessors: Alain Prost. Once again an inspired strategy worthy of "le proffeseur" has brought him a win against possibly faster competitors.
Lewis Hamilton deserves a win too one of this days. Today, his aggresive driving was rewarded with "only" a second place, but the real winners were the viewers. His chase of Vettel through the field in the beginning of the race was great to watch. Let's hope he keeps driving like this for the rest of the season.
As much as I am a Button fan, it would be probably be better for McLaren as a team if Lewis was ahead, because I suspect that Buton can handle being nr. 2, while Hamilton could become demoralised and his performance would suffer.
Another team that did well today is Renault. Kubica lost a podium, but his final result is still decent, and Petrov finally finished a race - and what a finish that was!A spectacular result from what I expected to be a mediocre pay driver. Renault can certainly use the extra points (they did better than Red Bull today!).
On the subject of Red Bull: Vettel wasted another pole position today. He begins to remind me of Montoya in 2002. Hero in qualy, looser in the race. Maybe the failures are dua to a lack of experience, but I'm starting to understand why people suspect RedBull of doing something "special" in qualyfying. Overall, Red Bull are still close to the leaders, but they are slipping behind.
Meanwhile, Mercedes still don't look like they can challenge for the championship. How should Rosberg feel about today's race? He beat Schumacher and scored a podium again, but he allso missed again the chance to win. I will not comment on Schumacher's performance (or lack thereof) because I'm sure that others will amply do so. I still believe that if Mercedes develop according to their potential they can win a race this season, even with Schumacher in the car, but that day may come very late into the season.
Ferrari seem to be in somewhat of a slump right now. They did not look as fast as at the start of the season. Nonetheless, Fernando Alonso drove a very good (but chaotic) race to finish 4-th. However, he allso seemed a bit too eager to assert his dominance over Massa and his attitude, especially the incident in the pit entry, could poison relationships within the team.
The mediocre teams today were Williams and Torro Rosso. Nothing to see here, neither brilliance nor rejectdom.
Truly rejectfull teams were Sauber and Force india. Sauber suffered another double DNF and wasted a possible chance at points. Force India allso wasted a chance at winning points, and have now lost contact with Renault. Given that this track was supposed to suit them and that Sutil has a certain reputation as a "rain specialist" today's result must be a major dissapointment for them.
As for the new teams, they are still far behind. Even with the intervention of the safety cars, they lagged too far behind to challenge for the points. Clearly a lot of work remains to be done if they want to become competitive.

Next race is in Barcelona: an usually processional race, but one that should answer some quastions about this year's pecking order. Let's hope the rest of the season will be interesting.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 18 Apr 2010, 12:17

The whole body language of Schumi/Merc (his) was just jaded & World weary. Remember how he could dominate in the wet & shine in lesser machinery. It is still early days but I am disappointed with his performance so far & tending towards agreeing with those who said it was a comeback too far. When speculation began towards the end of last season I did cite the examples of Nigel & AJ as reasons why Michael should not return, but was still hopeful that we might see something more from him than we have.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 18 Apr 2010, 12:20

What would the race have been like without the rain?

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 18 Apr 2010, 12:37

eagleash wrote:What would the race have been like without the rain?

That's a good question. But who knows the answer? The first laps were run on a dry track and they were still interesting. Maybe the threat of rain, and the certainty of multiple pit stops, made the drivers take more chances than usual. On an encouraging note, the performance of Vettel, Hamilton and to some extent Alonso on fresh rubber may indicate that there is an advantage after all to changing tires, so we might see more creative pit strategies in future races. We can only hope for the best.