New 2011 team(s)

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 26 Apr 2010, 09:31

thehemogoblin wrote:For the sake of Formula One, I hope the FIA says no to all of them.

Epsilon is actually a pretty serious effort. I might have criticised them for the dismall Epsilon Euskadi ee1, but I've since been told that was a project run in conjunction with a university to get students to design and build a car.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 26 Apr 2010, 13:49

Captain Hammer wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:For the sake of Formula One, I hope the FIA says no to all of them.

Epsilon is actually a pretty serious effort. I might have criticised them for the dismall Epsilon Euskadi ee1, but I've since been told that was a project run in conjunction with a university to get students to design and build a car.

The Epsilon ee1 may not be awesome on the road, but it's probably the most gorgeous LMP1 car I've ever seen. Plus, it was driven, amongst others, by the bonified rejects Shinji Nakano and Jean-Marc Gounon!

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 26 Apr 2010, 14:45

Oh, of course. My point is largely that Epsilon shouldn't be judged on the merits of the ee1 because it was a student project. The only racing series they take seriously is the World Series by Renault, and they know how to win there. True, they haven't won anything since Robert Kubica took the title in 2005, but their driver line-up since then hasn't been anything to write home about.

madcat · Post by **madcat** » 26 Apr 2010, 15:14

CarlosFerreira wrote:
madcat wrote:The only thing that Stefan has is hot air. The only Stefan car you'll ever see on a track will be the one competing with the USF1. They are using all this "drama" for publicity. Let's face it, they've had world wide publicity, not bad for a stunt.

While I agree, I am yet to find out what are they trying to publicise.

As a business man, it's the exposure. Whilst we might see him as a funny character in a jumper, in the balkans I'm sure he'll be seen in a whole different way. He'll be seen as the businessman that was going to enter F1, fully equipped but not allowed by FIA at the last minute. He's had world wide publicity, so as an entrepeneur it must be a result.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 26 Apr 2010, 15:38

madcat wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
madcat wrote:The only thing that Stefan has is hot air. The only Stefan car you'll ever see on a track will be the one competing with the USF1. They are using all this "drama" for publicity. Let's face it, they've had world wide publicity, not bad for a stunt.

While I agree, I am yet to find out what are they trying to publicise.

As a business man, it's the exposure. Whilst we might see him as a funny character in a jumper, in the balkans I'm sure he'll be seen in a whole different way. He'll be seen as the businessman that was going to enter F1, fully equipped but not allowed by FIA at the last minute. He's had world wide publicity, so as an entrepeneur it must be a result.

Fair enough. I wouldn't buy a packet of toothpicks from him, but he's achieved media coverage all right.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 26 Apr 2010, 15:40

Epsilon Euskadi is my favorite option of the ones presented so far. I just don't think too many companies are going to take the plunge and sponsor a Basque anything.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 26 Apr 2010, 17:23

thehemogoblin wrote:Epsilon Euskadi is my favorite option of the ones presented so far. I just don't think too many companies are going to take the plunge and sponsor a Basque anything.

In fact, they won't get any sponsors apart from some Basque province tourism delegation. That's the big problem for new teams: to find the damn sponsors any team needs. Hispania and Sauber don't have any major sponsor, and Virgin and Lotus are managed by entrepreneurs and their budget is still tight.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 26 Apr 2010, 17:42

Phoenix wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:Epsilon Euskadi is my favorite option of the ones presented so far. I just don't think too many companies are going to take the plunge and sponsor a Basque anything.

In fact, they won't get any sponsors apart from some Basque province tourism delegation. That's the big problem for new teams: to find the damn sponsors any team needs. Hispania and Sauber don't have any major sponsor, and Virgin and Lotus are managed by entrepreneurs and their budget is still tight.

Which may I add have main sponsors that are part of the same group of companies! (Lotus being part of Fernandes' Tune Group and well the other one is pretty bloody obvious).

Nobody has been able to find major new sponsors for this year, with the exception of Santander at Ferrari (which was a long time coming in reality), Mercedes with Petronas and Renault signing HP. Those aside everyone's sidepods are near identical to last year
It's also noting the first two exampls merely transferred/expanded from another F1 team instead of being brand new to the market...and even HP breaks the latter rule, considering their BMW Williams sponsorship years ago.

The point is, they have to try and find sponsors who are new to F1. Who was the last major sponsor that joined who was brand new to the sport? Surely one of the banks, ING or Santander perhaps, and well they're not as reliable a source of income as we all first thought. Where is the money going to come from now?

I say we need to brink back tobacco sponsorship or the sport will eventually die (oh the irony...). Jordan went down the crapper when they lost their Benson & Hedges sponsorship for example...the aftermath of the ban may already be over, but it's replacement as a major source of sponsorship for teams has also just disappeared. Williams are going to struggle for example, with RBS gone their only major backer left is Philips.

Someone needs to get on Bernie's good side pronto to try and persuade LG to sponsor their team. Whatever Ryan Hunter-Reay did in IndyCar certainly did...

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 26 Apr 2010, 19:03

kostas22 wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:Epsilon Euskadi is my favorite option of the ones presented so far. I just don't think too many companies are going to take the plunge and sponsor a Basque anything.

In fact, they won't get any sponsors apart from some Basque province tourism delegation. That's the big problem for new teams: to find the damn sponsors any team needs. Hispania and Sauber don't have any major sponsor, and Virgin and Lotus are managed by entrepreneurs and their budget is still tight.

Which may I add have main sponsors that are part of the same group of companies! (Lotus being part of Fernandes' Tune Group and well the other one is pretty bloody obvious).

Nobody has been able to find major new sponsors for this year, with the exception of Santander at Ferrari (which was a long time coming in reality), Mercedes with Petronas and Renault signing HP. Those aside everyone's sidepods are near identical to last year
It's also noting the first two exampls merely transferred/expanded from another F1 team instead of being brand new to the market...and even HP breaks the latter rule, considering their BMW Williams sponsorship years ago.

The point is, they have to try and find sponsors who are new to F1. Who was the last major sponsor that joined who was brand new to the sport? Surely one of the banks, ING or Santander perhaps, and well they're not as reliable a source of income as we all first thought. Where is the money going to come from now?

I say we need to brink back tobacco sponsorship or the sport will eventually die (oh the irony...). Jordan went down the crapper when they lost their Benson & Hedges sponsorship for example...the aftermath of the ban may already be over, but it's replacement as a major source of sponsorship for teams has also just disappeared. Williams are going to struggle for example, with RBS gone their only major backer left is Philips.

Someone needs to get on Bernie's good side pronto to try and persuade LG to sponsor their team. Whatever Ryan Hunter-Reay did in IndyCar certainly did...

Indeed tobacco sponsorship could be helpful, but only if those companies are willing to put money into an F1 team (well, maybe yes, but one doesn't know). The problem is, moralists are still at war with tobacco companies because now they complain about the Marlboro bar code that Ferrari uses in its livery, despite not being Marlboro tobacco ads proper. Yet, the advertising of alcoholic drinks is still allowed everywhere if I'm not mistaken (apart from Arabic countries), which is ludicrous when tobacco cannot be advertised. I still remember when many circuits were littered with Marlboro ads with nostalgia...
I think (and mind you, I hate tobacco) that tobacco ads could be allowed. After all, smoking or not is up to everybody. In fact, in Spain the advertising of tobacco is forbidden since 2005, yet I still see a lot of people smoking, so it's the same thing after all. And I mean, people that's only 12 already smoking, without any ads telling them to do so...Being this the case, better to have the profits tobacco ads give, at least in F1.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 26 Apr 2010, 19:15

the Problem with Tobacco sponsorship isnt that FIA banned it alone, but the fact that Tobacco advertising is banned in a lot of countries, for example the entire EU.

So even if Tobacco company decided to sponsor a team, then all they'd get for the majority of the season would be the car painted in their colors and some odd facsimile of their logo.

Granted, some of those logos were quite iconic in themselves (The Marlboro barcode and the Buzzin Hornets spring to mind)

But in a pure business sense, sponsoring an F1 team isnt viable.

Post by **mario** » 26 Apr 2010, 19:37

DonTirri wrote:the Problem with Tobacco sponsorship isnt that FIA banned it alone, but the fact that Tobacco advertising is banned in a lot of countries, for example the entire EU.

So even if Tobacco company decided to sponsor a team, then all they'd get for the majority of the season would be the car painted in their colors and some odd facsimile of their logo.

Granted, some of those logos were quite iconic in themselves (The Marlboro barcode and the Buzzin Hornets spring to mind)

But in a pure business sense, sponsoring an F1 team isnt viable.

Indeed - although some parts of the EU were slower to implement the tobacco advertising ban (for example, in the UK - of course, the fact that Bernie happened to be rather generous with his political donations to the Labour party in no way helped with the ban being delayed), now that it is across the EU, that would be most of the season where tobacco adverts would not be allowed. More importantly, even if it was outside of the EU, because of the ban on tobacco adverts, you would not be able to broadcast F1 within the EU - and that is the most valuable market for F1.
OK, you might find that team would try to get around it by hinting at the tobacco company involved via their paint scheme, which BAR and Renault did, and Ferrari still do (although Ferrari is a bit more complicated). However, and this is a somewhat ironic point, would the tobacco companies actually be that interested? There was a TV program (called QI - the UK based readers will recognise this program. For those outside of the UK, it is a trivia program which aims to dispel popular but wrong myths, and present the truth (which, often enough, is more interesting then the myth)). Now, that program looked at tobacco advertising as a prime example of how game theory works.

Advertising is very expensive, particularly for a top end team in F1 (that is a given). if everybody else is coming out with their adverts, then normally the relative market share of each company will remain fairly static over a short to medium length of time, but each company will have to expend a lot of money in order to preserve market share. Now, since the ban on tobacco advertising within most developed economies, the tobacco firms have been able to save a substantial amount of money by cutting their advertising budgets - so even if sales have dipped, the reduction in costs has more then offset the marginal gains in market share they could have achieved were they free to advertise. As a result, the ban on advertising has lead to an increase in profits within the tobacco industry, contrary to what you would expect.
As a result, given how expensive advertising in F1 is, I doubt that a tobacco firm would want to invest in sponsoring a team, even if it did have the opportunity.

midgrid · Post by **midgrid** » 26 Apr 2010, 20:27

In terms of Formula 1 advertising, I think energy drinks are the new cigarettes.

madcat · Post by **madcat** » 26 Apr 2010, 20:55

CarlosFerreira wrote:
madcat wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
As a business man, it's the exposure. Whilst we might see him as a funny character in a jumper, in the balkans I'm sure he'll be seen in a whole different way. He'll be seen as the businessman that was going to enter F1, fully equipped but not allowed by FIA at the last minute. He's had world wide publicity, so as an entrepeneur it must be a result.

Fair enough. I wouldn't buy a packet of toothpicks from him, but he's achieved media coverage all right.

And he probably only has one and it's been used. He got it from some japanese guy... But he'll tell you he's got a truck full, he'll send it down to your garden just to prove his intentions.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 26 Apr 2010, 22:14

madcat wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
madcat wrote:
Fair enough. I wouldn't buy a packet of toothpicks from him, but he's achieved media coverage all right.

And he probably only has one and it's been used. He got it from some japanese guy... But he'll tell you he's got a truck full, he'll send it down to your garden just to prove his intentions.

... and the toothpick-specialised press will debunk it after weeks of speculation... :mrgreen:

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 27 Apr 2010, 10:29

midgrid wrote:In terms of Formula 1 advertising, I think energy drinks are the new cigarettes.

Spot on, Red Bull have been around for years (as we all know, and now have a significant presence not only in F1 but in most sports in general) and Footwork/Arrows had Red Horse sponsoring them in the mid-90s. Mercedes has Monster as a minor sponsor (check out the drivers' helmets), I think Rockstar has a fairly large presence in the US, less so Europe and Relentless have been the title sponsor of the TAS Suzuki team in motorcycle road racing for a number of years now. The stuff is everywhere and really seems to have kicked off in the last couple of years so I guess that's where the big bucks are now.

In terms of sponsorship, the costs required to get a logo onto a car are ridiculous, I think once costs really start to come down we might see a few more companies entering the ring because it will be more viable and make more sense to sponsor a team if the company doesn't have to cough up so much cash. Let us take for example the Virgin car. Now try and spot the spare space to fit some more logos on there. It's already been mentioned that obviously the team has the majority of its backing coming from one Mr R Branson but it's hardly dripping in Virgin iconography is it, when compared say to the Lotus which is almost exclusively sporting the names of Mr Fernandes' various companies. My point is that obviously with a low £40 million budget, sponsors are easier to find because the amount of money required is less. I'd be interested to know Sauber's approximate budget and the sort of money they're looking for because for a team with only one finish to its name doesn't look very attractive, even more so if they have a larger budget than some of the teams that are beating them.

madcat · Post by **madcat** » 27 Apr 2010, 12:25

AndreaModa wrote:
but it's hardly dripping in Virgin iconography is it, when compared say to the Lotus which is almost exclusively sporting the names of Mr Fernandes' various companies.

Agree but Branson uses the Virgin brand for all his business, as opposed to using different named companies. I guess Virgin trains, Virgin tv, Virgin records wouldn't look that amazing...

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 27 Apr 2010, 13:09

Haha true, but even just in terms of the Virgin name, its on the rear wing and I think a smallish logo on the nose just in front of the cockpit. When it was all first announced I was expecting sidepods, front wing, beautiful red and white paint scheme etc but its turned out rather different.

SDHammer · Post by **SDHammer** » 27 Apr 2010, 13:32

madcat wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:
but it's hardly dripping in Virgin iconography is it, when compared say to the Lotus which is almost exclusively sporting the names of Mr Fernandes' various companies.

Agree but Branson uses the Virgin brand for all his business, as opposed to using different named companies. I guess Virgin trains, Virgin tv, Virgin records wouldn't look that amazing...

Mr Branson doesn't use the Virgin name for all his companies. His condom brand is called Mates and his London based bridal shop is called The One Stop Wedding Shop.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 27 Apr 2010, 13:45

SDHammer wrote:
madcat wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:
but it's hardly dripping in Virgin iconography is it, when compared say to the Lotus which is almost exclusively sporting the names of Mr Fernandes' various companies.

Agree but Branson uses the Virgin brand for all his business, as opposed to using different named companies. I guess Virgin trains, Virgin tv, Virgin records wouldn't look that amazing...

Mr Branson doesn't use the Virgin name for all his companies. His condom brand is called Mates and his London based bridal shop is called The One Stop Wedding Shop.

Personally I would find it extremely amusing IF those condoms and that bridal shop were called Virgin

Although, in USA, a bridal shop called Virgin would be quite popular, after all, in good part of the country, brides are supposed to be Virgins!

Abstinance... never understood it and never will.

Popi_Larrauri · Post by **Popi_Larrauri** » 28 Apr 2010, 02:52

Have you read this?

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 10697.html

This guy is amazing...

Carlos, I remember well a very reasonable analysis about how serious could Stefan be after all, having no more than a picture of an old Toyota semi developed chassis, a driver, and a website made in lunch hour (sic, more or less

).

How can something had changed that much for even bartering F1 governing body with a whole new track on the outskirts of Belgrade?

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 28 Apr 2010, 03:50

Popi_Larrauri wrote:Have you read this?

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 10697.html

This guy is amazing...

Hi! Welcome to last week's news!

Tealy · Post by **Tealy** » 28 Apr 2010, 08:42

Popi_Larrauri wrote:Have you read this?

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 10697.html

This guy is amazing...

Carlos, I remember well a very reasonable analysis about how serious could Stefan be after all, having no more than a picture of an old Toyota semi developed chassis, a driver, and a website made in lunch hour (sic, more or less ).

How can something had changed that much for even bartering F1 governing body with a whole new track on the outskirts of Belgrade?

Gotta love the ambition if nothing else.

Popi_Larrauri · Post by **Popi_Larrauri** » 28 Apr 2010, 15:10

Captain Hammer wrote:
Popi_Larrauri wrote:Have you read this?

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 10697.html

This guy is amazing...

Hi! Welcome to last week's news!

A very long one for me, indeed...

PS: but officialy? Have you discussed it "after" becoming official?

Yes?

Damn it...

Post by **mario** » 28 Apr 2010, 16:23

Popi_Larrauri wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:
Popi_Larrauri wrote:Have you read this?

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 10697.html

This guy is amazing...

Hi! Welcome to last week's news!

A very long one for me, indeed...

PS: but officialy? Have you discussed it "after" becoming official?

Yes?

Damn it...

We've discussed it, dissected it and proposed our own line up for Stefan already. Personally, I think that the devil will be buying ice skates before the FIA accept Stefan's bid, but Stefan just doesn't seem to get the message that he isn't welcome.

thehemogoblin wrote:Epsilon Euskadi is my favorite option of the ones presented so far. I just don't think too many companies are going to take the plunge and sponsor a Basque anything.

Between a dodgy business man with a crate of obsolete Toyota parts, an experimental Le Mans Prototype manufacturer, and a third contender who eventually had to leave the GP2 series due to financial problems, the Epsilon bid is probably the most credible entry. Apart from them, though, it isn't that great a line up of new entrants, is it?

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 28 Apr 2010, 17:10

Popi_Larrauri wrote:Have you read this?

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 10697.html

This guy is amazing...

Carlos, I remember well a very reasonable analysis about how serious could Stefan be after all, having no more than a picture of an old Toyota semi developed chassis, a driver, and a website made in lunch hour (sic, more or less ).

How can something had changed that much for even bartering F1 governing body with a whole new track on the outskirts of Belgrade?

I've been having a few long weeks myself lately, so that's news for me as well.

I am willing to give anyone a chance, and even a second chance - but can anyone tell me how relevant to running an F1 team is it to display the ability to lay tarmac? 'Cause lat time around the (ir)relevant skill Stefan fanned out was to produce hi-tech military equipment and run some wind tunnels.

The abilities required to be accepted with the F1 teams were, last time I checked, the ability to form that same team, to obtain finance so the team can be assured of existence in the medium term, and the ability to design, develop and run a car on F1 venues.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 28 Apr 2010, 18:12

CarlosFerreira wrote:I am willing to give anyone a chance, and even a second chance - but can anyone tell me how relevant to running an F1 team is it to display the ability to lay tarmac? 'Cause lat time around the (ir)relevant skill Stefan fanned out was to produce hi-tech military equipment and run some wind tunnels.

The abilities required to be accepted with the F1 teams were, last time I checked, the ability to form that same team, to obtain finance so the team can be assured of existence in the medium term, and the ability to design, develop and run a car on F1 venues.

They want to use his future complex as an incentive to boost their F1 candidature. However, with 500€, they'll only make a Scalextric complex...
Indeed, if they had to buy Toyota's project, they were already failing to meet one of the conditions-the ability to design a car.

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 28 Apr 2010, 22:05

Phoenix wrote:Indeed, if they had to buy Toyota's project, they were already failing to meet one of the conditions-the ability to design a car.

That never stopped Toro Rosso; you could argue that they had the facilities to design a car given that they built many under the Minardi guise.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 28 Apr 2010, 22:51

RejectSteve wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Indeed, if they had to buy Toyota's project, they were already failing to meet one of the conditions-the ability to design a car.

That never stopped Toro Rosso; you could argue that they had the facilities to design a car given that they built many under the Minardi guise.

Not to mention... HRT ALSO bought a car.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 29 Apr 2010, 01:09

As did Virgin. The difference between Virgin and Hispania and Stefan is that they commissioned the design whereas Stefan simply bought Toyota when it was put on the market.

mediocre · Post by **mediocre** » 29 Apr 2010, 12:02

Where did Virgin buy their cars from?

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 29 Apr 2010, 12:24

mediocre wrote:Where did Virgin buy their cars from?

I THINK what Hammer means is that Virgin bough the cars (and the team) from Man... Simtek. Though personally I think it really isnt comparable to even HRT's situation.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 29 Apr 2010, 14:41

DonTirri wrote:
mediocre wrote:Where did Virgin buy their cars from?

I THINK what Hammer means is that Virgin bough the cars (and the team) from Man... Simtek. Though personally I think it really isnt comparable to even HRT's situation.

No because Wirth Research is effectively part of the Virgin Racing team, which is made up of three different parts anyway - Wirth Research does the car building and development, Manor Grand Prix does the racing side, and the Virgin part does all the corporate, sponsor stuff, and of course provides most of the funds.

Compare that with HRT who commissioned Dallara to build them a car, and who are now having to reverse engineer the thing to understand it because Dallara has no more involvement with them. They are two completely seperate entities, just as Stefan and Toyota would have been, only Stefan would have merely bought cars and some technology whereas HRT actually commissioned it themselves.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 29 Apr 2010, 17:37

DonTirri wrote:
RejectSteve wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Indeed, if they had to buy Toyota's project, they were already failing to meet one of the conditions-the ability to design a car.

That never stopped Toro Rosso; you could argue that they had the facilities to design a car given that they built many under the Minardi guise.

Not to mention... HRT ALSO bought a car.

Well, but HRT is only Campos with a new guise.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 29 Apr 2010, 18:51

Phoenix wrote:
DonTirri wrote:
RejectSteve wrote:That never stopped Toro Rosso; you could argue that they had the facilities to design a car given that they built many under the Minardi guise.

Not to mention... HRT ALSO bought a car.

Well, but HRT is only Campos with a new guise.

Exactly, Campos bought the car from Dallara.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 29 Apr 2010, 23:23

mediocre wrote:Where did Virgin buy their cars from?

They sub-contracted out to Wirth Research. Unlike Dallara and Hispania, though, Wirth Research was intimately involved with the team from the outset. Virgin were actually based out of Wirth's facilities; they weren't moving to Manor Road in Dinnington until the European season began.

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 30 Apr 2010, 04:23

Captain Hammer wrote:
mediocre wrote:Where did Virgin buy their cars from?

Wirth Research was intimately involved with the team from the outset.

They just keep on coming!

Post by **mario** » 30 Apr 2010, 08:13

AndreaModa wrote:
DonTirri wrote:
mediocre wrote:Where did Virgin buy their cars from?

I THINK what Hammer means is that Virgin bough the cars (and the team) from Man... Simtek. Though personally I think it really isnt comparable to even HRT's situation.

No because Wirth Research is effectively part of the Virgin Racing team, which is made up of three different parts anyway - Wirth Research does the car building and development, Manor Grand Prix does the racing side, and the Virgin part does all the corporate, sponsor stuff, and of course provides most of the funds.

Compare that with HRT who commissioned Dallara to build them a car, and who are now having to reverse engineer the thing to understand it because Dallara has no more involvement with them. They are two completely seperate entities, just as Stefan and Toyota would have been, only Stefan would have merely bought cars and some technology whereas HRT actually commissioned it themselves.

The main issue is not necessarily who makes the car, since the regulations allow for a car to be sub-contracted out. However, that comes with the caveat that only one team can have the intellectual property rights to the design of that car. So, as things stand, the HRT deal is ok because Dallara sold them the IP rights (and by the looks of things, Dallara don't want the car back anyway, judging by the way they've abandoned the team). Similarly, both the Lotus and Virgin Racing teams own the IP rights to their cars, so everything is above board.

Stefan, however, doesn't technically own the IP rights to the car - Toyota sold him the parts, but held onto the IP rights, and those were only to be transferred when Stefan's bid was accepted. However, it is now pretty clear that his bid is going to be rejected by the FIA, so Toyota know that they can hold onto the IP rights.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 30 Apr 2010, 09:05

mario wrote:it is now pretty clear that his bid is going to be rejected by the FIA

Says who, exactly? No-one from the FIA has come out and said Stefan won't race, nor has anyone on the inside tipped any other team as a favourite. The truth is that we won't know until July.

mario wrote:so Toyota know that they can hold onto the IP rights.

Actually, Toyota wouldn't be able to sell the TF110 at all. The 2010-spec cars are designed around the double diffuser, and the 2011 design has banned them. The entire car would have to be re-designed, and since Toyota are not racing, it wouldn't be worth the expense to re-design a car in the hopes of being able to sell it on. Besides, the Toyota personnel who designed the TF110 have moved on.

Post by **mario** » 30 Apr 2010, 12:47

Captain Hammer wrote:
mario wrote:it is now pretty clear that his bid is going to be rejected by the FIA

Says who, exactly? No-one from the FIA has come out and said Stefan won't race, nor has anyone on the inside tipped any other team as a favourite. The truth is that we won't know until July.

All that Stefan has is an obsolete ex-Toyota and a crate of spare parts. So far, I have seen nothing to suggest that he could come up with sufficient financial backing in order to support a team, there are no technicians (as you say, the Toyota personnel have moved on), no technical director, no mechanics - in effect, nothing to suggest that he can put a fully functioning team together. Moreover, as we have seen with his claims about his company, which subsequently turned out to be false, Stefan doesn't seem to be the most trustworthy of individuals, and he has been openly critical of the FIA for not letting him in for 2010 (even though he never actually formally applied for 2010, just tried turning up and forcing his way in).
As a result, and given that the FIA have already, rather bluntly, rejected any attempts by Stefan GP to join this year, I can't see the FIA suddenly changing tack and welcoming him with open arms.

Captain Hammer wrote:
mario wrote:so Toyota know that they can hold onto the IP rights.

Actually, Toyota wouldn't be able to sell the TF110 at all. The 2010-spec cars are designed around the double diffuser, and the 2011 design has banned them. The entire car would have to be re-designed, and since Toyota are not racing, it wouldn't be worth the expense to re-design a car in the hopes of being able to sell it on. Besides, the Toyota personnel who designed the TF110 have moved on.

I was commenting about the ownership rights of the TF110, and comparing the situation with the HRT-Dallara situation. I am fully aware that the double diffuser is banned for 2011 (and the TF110 would be well out of date by then anyway, even if the ban wasn't in place).
The point I was trying to make was that Toyota still hold the IP rights to the car, and the FIA are using proof of ownership of the IP rights as part of the condition of being able to compete (i.e. it eliminates the loophole that Red Bull used to give Toro Rosso the same design - now both teams must have a separate design, even though they both commission Red Bull Technology - the company that the design team has been moved into - to design their cars).
What I was pointing out was that Stefan doesn't own the IP rights to his car, and the transfer of the IP rights was conditional on Stefan's bid to the FIA was accepted, whereas the other new teams of HRT, Virgin Racing and Lotus do own the IP rights to their cars, even where, in two of those cases, the design of the car itself was conducted by a third party (Dallara in HRT's case and by Wirth's company in the case of Virgin Racing).

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 30 Apr 2010, 13:21

Further adding to mario's points, I think every time the FIA looks to the back of the grid, and sees - for example - Glock's car with its wheels in the air at the time the warm-up lap started, and then none of the Virgins starting at all; or the travails of HRT (which I really can't see competing next year, unless they produce a technical team and production capacity out of thin air, for the net cost of $0.00), the FIA will be REALLY careful whom they allow into the club. New teams divide the TV money AND compete for sponsors, so the rest of the field will take a dim view of further expansions. To be absolutely honest, I can't see any new entrants unless backed by a manufacturer.