New 2011 team(s)

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Phoenix
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by Phoenix »

CarlosFerreira wrote:Further adding to mario's points, I think every time the FIA looks to the back of the grid, and sees - for example - Glock's car with its wheels in the air at the time the warm-up lap started, and then none of the Virgins starting at all; or the travails of HRT (which I really can't see competing next year, unless they produce a technical team and production capacity out of thin air, for the net cost of $0.00), the FIA will be REALLY careful whom they allow into the club. New teams divide the TV money AND compete for sponsors, so the rest of the field will take a dim view of further expansions. To be absolutely honest, I can't see any new entrants unless backed by a manufacturer.

Yeah, but what manufcaturer is going to back a new team? It's very unlikely.
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by CarlosFerreira »

Phoenix wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:Further adding to mario's points, I think every time the FIA looks to the back of the grid, and sees - for example - Glock's car with its wheels in the air at the time the warm-up lap started, and then none of the Virgins starting at all; or the travails of HRT (which I really can't see competing next year, unless they produce a technical team and production capacity out of thin air, for the net cost of $0.00), the FIA will be REALLY careful whom they allow into the club. New teams divide the TV money AND compete for sponsors, so the rest of the field will take a dim view of further expansions. To be absolutely honest, I can't see any new entrants unless backed by a manufacturer.

Yeah, but what manufcaturer is going to back a new team? It's very unlikely.


Sure, agreed. It's not in anyone's interest to expand the field anyway. There, I've said it.
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by Phoenix »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:Further adding to mario's points, I think every time the FIA looks to the back of the grid, and sees - for example - Glock's car with its wheels in the air at the time the warm-up lap started, and then none of the Virgins starting at all; or the travails of HRT (which I really can't see competing next year, unless they produce a technical team and production capacity out of thin air, for the net cost of $0.00), the FIA will be REALLY careful whom they allow into the club. New teams divide the TV money AND compete for sponsors, so the rest of the field will take a dim view of further expansions. To be absolutely honest, I can't see any new entrants unless backed by a manufacturer.

Yeah, but what manufcaturer is going to back a new team? It's very unlikely.

Sure, agreed. It's not in anyone's interest to expand the field anyway. There, I've said it.

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mario
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by mario »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:Further adding to mario's points, I think every time the FIA looks to the back of the grid, and sees - for example - Glock's car with its wheels in the air at the time the warm-up lap started, and then none of the Virgins starting at all; or the travails of HRT (which I really can't see competing next year, unless they produce a technical team and production capacity out of thin air, for the net cost of $0.00), the FIA will be REALLY careful whom they allow into the club. New teams divide the TV money AND compete for sponsors, so the rest of the field will take a dim view of further expansions. To be absolutely honest, I can't see any new entrants unless backed by a manufacturer.

Yeah, but what manufcaturer is going to back a new team? It's very unlikely.


Sure, agreed. It's not in anyone's interest to expand the field anyway. There, I've said it.


It certainly isn't (you could have also mentioned that FOM would have come under increasing pressure to up the payments to the teams, so if the teams had to take smaller slices of the pie, then they'd want a bigger pie in recompense). Nor would the circuit owners have been that happy, given that they'd have to try and find extra space in the pits for more and more teams.
As for manufacturers backing teams, they won't want to do it yet, and certainly not back a new team. If you were to do so, then it'd be in your interests to at least pick a team which has an experienced work force and decent resources, like BMW did with Sauber. Perhaps in 2013 we might see manufacturers embrace F1 again when the new engines come in, as suppliers, but I think that a full works outfit won't be on the cards for some time.
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by CarlosFerreira »

mario wrote:As for manufacturers backing teams, they won't want to do it yet, and certainly not back a new team. If you were to do so, then it'd be in your interests to at least pick a team which has an experienced work force and decent resources, like BMW did with Sauber. Perhaps in 2013 we might see manufacturers embrace F1 again when the new engines come in, as suppliers, but I think that a full works outfit won't be on the cards for some time.


I reckon BMW did make a killing, just as Renault had done before with Benetton, and Mercedes with Brawn this year. McLaren would be perfect, but they seem to insist on having a mind of their own...
Let's suppose for a moment that, I don't know, the VW group wants to join F1 after the engine changes they request are approved. There is still something to choose from - Sauber is definitely available (in a couple of races the car will sport "For Sale" signs on the sidepods...), and although Force India probably isn't - Vijjat Mallya seems like a stayer, and would like to race his team in the first Indian GP, the Renault outfit could be up for grabs and - spanner in the works - maybe Frank & Patrick could be willing to talk after a couple more depressing seasons? Toro Rosso isn't attractive - HQ in Italy, uses second-hand Newey material anyway. Virgin, if they get their act together, would be a less attractive alternative but chaper as well.

And finally, thanks Phoenix. :D
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by Phoenix »

Pffff...if Williams was sold, then it would be a signal that something is really going wrong with F1. If the new turbo engines attract more manufacturers, albeit as suppliers, maybe Williams could score a deal with a manufacturer but only for the engines and gain much-needed stability and competitiveness. But for now, F1 still seems to depend too much on manufacturer-run teams. Is this the only way out for F1 in the future?
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by CarlosFerreira »

Phoenix wrote:Pffff...if Williams was sold, then it would be a signal that something is really going wrong with F1. If the new turbo engines attract more manufacturers, albeit as suppliers, maybe Williams could score a deal with a manufacturer but only for the engines and gain much-needed stability and competitiveness. But for now, F1 still seems to depend too much on manufacturer-run teams. Is this the only way out for F1 in the future?


As someone who has long kept a keen eye on the team, I wouldn't be terribly surprised they would consider it in a couple of years. The fact they underperformed last year despite getting the diffuser right first time was very negative. This year, after everyone caught up with them, they're back to fighting Toro Rosso, with even the Force Indias away in the distance. This is the reason why Williams is pushing for the re-introduction of KERS, they believe they could have some competitive advantage. As long as F1 is this race to refine the car ever more, where you spend millions in details, I don't see Williams clawing back up. They need that breakthrough tech to be up there.
Incidentally, I do think manufacturer involvement is the way forward again.
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by Phoenix »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Pffff...if Williams was sold, then it would be a signal that something is really going wrong with F1. If the new turbo engines attract more manufacturers, albeit as suppliers, maybe Williams could score a deal with a manufacturer but only for the engines and gain much-needed stability and competitiveness. But for now, F1 still seems to depend too much on manufacturer-run teams. Is this the only way out for F1 in the future?

As someone who has long kept a keen eye on the team, I wouldn't be terribly surprised they would consider it in a couple of years. The fact they underperformed last year despite getting the diffuser right first time was very negative. This year, after everyone caught up with them, they're back to fighting Toro Rosso, with even the Force Indias away in the distance. This is the reason why Williams is pushing for the re-introduction of KERS, they believe they could have some competitive advantage. As long as F1 is this race to refine the car ever more, where you spend millions in details, I don't see Williams clawing back up. They need that breakthrough tech to be up there.
Incidentally, I do think manufacturer involvement is the way forward again.

Well, maybe you have a point here...Williams doesn't have the resources other teams have, and being backed up today is paramount. Maybe they're losing the train of the new 21st century F1, and will end up like Lotus proper, or Brabham, or Tyrrell, but bought out by an energetic drink manufacturer (Monster Racing?).
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by CarlosFerreira »

Phoenix wrote:Well, maybe you have a point here...Williams doesn't have the resources other teams have, and being backed up today is paramount. Maybe they're losing the train of the new 21st century F1, and will end up like Lotus proper, or Brabham, or Tyrrell, but bought out by an energetic drink manufacturer (Monster Racing?).


Note that I love and follow Williams, but that is a possibility for the future. Monster? I don't know how many more lurid liveries I can take...
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by mario »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Pffff...if Williams was sold, then it would be a signal that something is really going wrong with F1. If the new turbo engines attract more manufacturers, albeit as suppliers, maybe Williams could score a deal with a manufacturer but only for the engines and gain much-needed stability and competitiveness. But for now, F1 still seems to depend too much on manufacturer-run teams. Is this the only way out for F1 in the future?


As someone who has long kept a keen eye on the team, I wouldn't be terribly surprised they would consider it in a couple of years. The fact they underperformed last year despite getting the diffuser right first time was very negative. This year, after everyone caught up with them, they're back to fighting Toro Rosso, with even the Force Indias away in the distance. This is the reason why Williams is pushing for the re-introduction of KERS, they believe they could have some competitive advantage. As long as F1 is this race to refine the car ever more, where you spend millions in details, I don't see Williams clawing back up. They need that breakthrough tech to be up there.
Incidentally, I do think manufacturer involvement is the way forward again.


As long as Sir Frank Williams is there, I doubt that the team will be sold to a manufacturer, since he has always wanted the team to rely only on itself, without any external assistance. He's rebuffed approaches in the past, and seems like the sort of individual who would prefer the team to close, rather than reliant upon somebody else.
The thing is, even allowing for the smaller financial resources, the team is not doing that well - Force India has a smaller budget, as does Toro Rosso, yet Williams has fallen behind the first, and risk slipping behind Toro Rosso at Barcelona (since Williams are not bringing any updates until Monaco at the earliest, whilst the other teams are bringing updates to Barcelona). It could well be the case that the only established team they are ahead of is Sauber, which would be a very sorry state of affairs (as is Sauber's parlous state - like Brawn in 2009, they have started with no sponsorship, but unlike Brawn, they have neither pace or reliability at the moment).
What has helped Force India out is the research partnership they have with Mclaren, whilst Toro Rosso can draw on the design capabilities of Red Bull Technologies. Considering the finances of Williams are not that strong, the most pragmatic approach would be to see if they could tempt a manufacturer to supply them with engines and collaborate on research, much as Force India have done. Even so, given that most manufacturers are not interested in going into F1 until the 2013 engine regulations are sorted, it could be a few hard years before Williams can find another partner.

As for manufacturer involvement, if the FIA are pushing the "green" and "road relevant" aspects of F1, then ultimately they are pushing the sport towards a manufacturer backed series (although, as has been pointed out by Gilles Simon, very little pollution arises on the track - most comes from off the track). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83210
After all, in the above interview, Simon pushes the road car aspect repeatedly, and is clearly trying to entice a manufacturer of two to join the sport (or rejoin, as may be the case). As for the KERS systems, although Williams are pushing for it, at the moment their intention seems to be to use a standardised battery based design (the one Renault and Ferrari are promoting) since it is more compact - so I can't see how that would give them that much, or any, performance advantage. If anything, Williams seem most interested in selling their system to others, such as Porsche.
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

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I think the whole pushing for a new manufacturer or two comes directly from the fact that F1 currently has its lowest number of manufacturers/engine suppliers for 30 years. I'd be very happy to see new manufacturers come in and do as Mario has suggested with Williams and provide engines and technical assistance, rather than just taking over the team entirely. What I dislike is how BMW, Honda, and now Mercedes came into the sport - these companies have more than enough money to start their own entries, yet they instead push aside the plucky and hard working privateers and save a few bucks by having all the infrastructure in place. Its one reason why I always admired Toyota to an extent, they came in, tried and admittedly failed to do their own thing, but at least they didn't do it at the expense of another team. I'm not too bothered about where the entries come from, but I would like a full grid, and I would like a healthy balance of manufacturers, and manufacturer-backed privateers if at all possible. Wishful thinking perhaps?
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by Phoenix »

AndreaModa wrote:I'm not too bothered about where the entries come from, but I would like a full grid, and I would like a healthy balance of manufacturers, and manufacturer-backed privateers if at all possible. Wishful thinking perhaps?

Sadly, it's too optimisc nowadays. I've come with yet another crazy idea though-a special league/prize for entries with limited budget, so private teams could have some incentive about entering the sport and would attract sponsorship.
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

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Phoenix wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:I'm not too bothered about where the entries come from, but I would like a full grid, and I would like a healthy balance of manufacturers, and manufacturer-backed privateers if at all possible. Wishful thinking perhaps?

Sadly, it's too optimisc nowadays. I've come with yet another crazy idea though-a special league/prize for entries with limited budget, so private teams could have some incentive about entering the sport and would attract sponsorship.


Like the normally aspirated championship in '87 was it? '88? God I can't remember now! Would be a good idea but the whole two tier championship is then a complete reality, rather than what is currently the case. I was thinking about how F1 needs to be the premier class whilst watching the MotoGP today. Sounds odd I know but their current grid is 17 bikes which is pitiful, especially as points go down to 15th place. The thing is though, it wouldn't be good if the class was flooded with 30+ bikes as the new Moto2 class is because it would loose it's 'pinnacle of bike racing' tag (the same reason why I think they should rename MotoGP Formula 1, but thats another story...). The same applies to F1, the sport needs to be made up of a select number of professional teams that go about their business in the right way. The late 80s/early 90s were great fun, but it made the sport a free-for-all and at the time, on the back of loosing the turbos and the image of ultimate power and being on the limit that they brought to the sport, I imagine the whole perception was of a rather unprofessional, sub-standard class of racing that has only truly been recovered by Max and Bernie's commercialisation of the whole thing.
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

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AndreaModa wrote:Like the normally aspirated championship in '87 was it? '88? God I can't remember now!


1987 ;)
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by Phoenix »

AndreaModa wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:I'm not too bothered about where the entries come from, but I would like a full grid, and I would like a healthy balance of manufacturers, and manufacturer-backed privateers if at all possible. Wishful thinking perhaps?

Sadly, it's too optimisc nowadays. I've come with yet another crazy idea though-a special league/prize for entries with limited budget, so private teams could have some incentive about entering the sport and would attract sponsorship.

Like the normally aspirated championship in '87 was it? '88? God I can't remember now! Would be a good idea but the whole two tier championship is then a complete reality, rather than what is currently the case. I was thinking about how F1 needs to be the premier class whilst watching the MotoGP today. Sounds odd I know but their current grid is 17 bikes which is pitiful, especially as points go down to 15th place. The thing is though, it wouldn't be good if the class was flooded with 30+ bikes as the new Moto2 class is because it would loose it's 'pinnacle of bike racing' tag (the same reason why I think they should rename MotoGP Formula 1, but thats another story...). The same applies to F1, the sport needs to be made up of a select number of professional teams that go about their business in the right way. The late 80s/early 90s were great fun, but it made the sport a free-for-all and at the time, on the back of loosing the turbos and the image of ultimate power and being on the limit that they brought to the sport, I imagine the whole perception was of a rather unprofessional, sub-standard class of racing that has only truly been recovered by Max and Bernie's commercialisation of the whole thing.

That championship was the Jim Clark Cup for normally aspirated cars. It was created as an incentive for teams to go the non-turbo way as turbos were to be banned for 1989. The championship was won by Jonathan Palmer and Tyrrell. Ironically enough, in 1988, with no Jim Clark Cup, there were more teams with atmospheric engines.
I think 26 is the perfect number, just as the FIA proposed. However, there's little point in that if some teams can't afford themselves to be in the sport, or aren't interested, because you can't get 26 cars by relying only on manufacturers. It's just a way to get those little teams some incentive to be in F1.
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

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The SPEED Report is claimin that the FIA have received thirteen entry bids. The majority of these have gone un-named, and aside from the three that we know to have submitted entires - Epsilon Euskadi, Durgano and Stefan GP - they confirm the existence of the Cypher Group. However, Cypher is not a reimgining of USF1 as previously suspected, because rumour has it that Ken Anderson is re-applying for the 2011 grid with his own team, to run under the name of Anderson F1.

But given that the USF1 debacl is still fresh in everyone's minds, even Max Mosley would have the sense to give the grid position to myf1dream.com before he gave it to Anderson.
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

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Reports out of Italy suggest ART Grand Prix want in as well.
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

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Captain Hammer wrote:Reports out of Italy suggest ART Grand Prix want in as well.


With Felipe Massa and Jules Bianchi as drivers with Ferrari engines? :o
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by Klon »

kostas22 wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:Reports out of Italy suggest ART Grand Prix want in as well.


With Felipe Massa and Jules Bianchi as drivers with Ferrari engines? :o


That's just what I have been thinking, the next Sauber Petronas, if they get the slot, which, obviously, should be avoided now
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by Malta Shadows F1 »

This wrote:it'l be more like flanders and wallonia in belgium, totally different people, but the reality is that most people don't give a damn about it, belgium is basically just a bunch of people that don't fit in either holland, france, germany or well... luxemburg
except for some politicians who think splitting the country would solve everything, truth is it would make it even worse. I guess it's a bit the same in many countries.

But still good enough to make jokes about 'the others' :D

Perhaps we could consider basque to spain as what greenland is to denmark?

Hell, i want a national greenlandic team!


NORDIC-F1 (?)
the roughest squad on the grid.... :mrgreen:
if that happens Chuck Norris will HAVE to be the team principal, he could sponsor the team with his fighting league.
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

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Captain Hammer wrote:Reports out of Italy suggest ART Grand Prix want in as well.

And now it seems that it has been officially announced that ART GP are going to submit an entry for next year (apologies for the link, as I know that he isn't to everybody's taste, but it seems that at the moment only James Allen is running with this announcement http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/05/t ... th-art-gp/ )
What could raise a few eyebrows, though, about this entry is the fact that Nicolas Todt is part of the ART GP management, and will be involved in submitting the bid to the FIA. As such, this could lead to a very delicate issue with regards team selection, because should ART GP win a place, there could well be acrimonious suggestions of nepotism. As such, therefore, I expect that Todt Senior will probably try to maintain as low a profile, or even distance himself entirely, from the selection of the new teams, to avoid allegations of conflicts of interest.

It is a shame, though, because ART GP actually look to be one of the better entrants; they have been quite successful in GP2 (both Hamilton and Rosberg drove for them in GP2, and they have had quite a bit of success in F3, in partnership with Mercedes), and they have shown that they are quite well organised.
Furthermore, on of ART GP's main share holers is Mumtalakat, the same sovereign wealth fund that backs Mclaren, so, crucially, they are probably much more financially secure compared to the other entrants.

Finally, the fact that they have a promising driver, Jules Bianchi, under contract in GP2, means that they already have a driver who would potentially be competitive, and reasonably up to speed. Also, we know that Ferrari are keen to see what he is capable of in an F1 car, so they might be able to win backing from Ferrari as well, perhaps in the form of a cut price engine deal (as Ferrari would be allowed to supply a few more teams).

This does seem like an interesting gambit from ART GP, so it could well be keeping an eye on them...
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by Phoenix »

Maybe ART GP would be succesful, but so one would have thought of Coloni or Pacific back in the day, when they were in a similar tenure...
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by Pedestrian »

mario wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:Reports out of Italy suggest ART Grand Prix want in as well.

And now it seems that it has been officially announced that ART GP are going to submit an entry for next year (apologies for the link, as I know that he isn't to everybody's taste, but it seems that at the moment only James Allen is running with this announcement http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/05/t ... th-art-gp/ )
What could raise a few eyebrows, though, about this entry is the fact that Nicolas Todt is part of the ART GP management, and will be involved in submitting the bid to the FIA. As such, this could lead to a very delicate issue with regards team selection, because should ART GP win a place, there could well be acrimonious suggestions of nepotism.


On the other hand, a "healthy" dose of nepotism may be the best guarantee that the ART can become more than another moving chicane.
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by Cynon »

Phoenix wrote:Yeah, but what manufcaturer is going to back a new team? It's very unlikely.


What if Volkswagen bought the old Toyota team?
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

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Malta Shadows F1 wrote:
This wrote:it'l be more like flanders and wallonia in belgium, totally different people, but the reality is that most people don't give a damn about it, belgium is basically just a bunch of people that don't fit in either holland, france, germany or well... luxemburg
except for some politicians who think splitting the country would solve everything, truth is it would make it even worse. I guess it's a bit the same in many countries.

But still good enough to make jokes about 'the others' :D

Perhaps we could consider basque to spain as what greenland is to denmark?

Hell, i want a national greenlandic team!


NORDIC-F1 (?)
the roughest squad on the grid.... :mrgreen:
if that happens Chuck Norris will HAVE to be the team principal, he could sponsor the team with his fighting league.


I don't know why you're laughing because there is a Nordic Racing team who used to complete in F3000. Ex-drivers include Justin Wilson and Tomas Enge!
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by Phoenix »

Cynon wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Yeah, but what manufcaturer is going to back a new team? It's very unlikely.

What if Volkswagen bought the old Toyota team?

Why should they do that? Aren't they unable to establish a team on its own?
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Re: New 2011 team(s)

Post by Captain Hammer »

Cynon wrote:What if Volkswagen bought the old Toyota team?

I assume that includes the TF110 chassis?

It won't work. The TF110 is designed around the double diffuser - which will be gone in 2011.
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