Your Reject of the Race - Monaco!

LukeB · Post by **LukeB** » 16 May 2010, 16:28

It can be entertaining.
It can also be ear bleedingly awful... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wif3Kr0y5js

pablo_h · Post by **pablo_h** » 16 May 2010, 16:43

LukeB wrote:I'll go with Webber too just to show solidarity with Captain Hammer. Having gone through ITVs Button-mania and Lewisteria I know exactly how ungodly put-your-foot-through-the-TV annoying "patriotic" coverage gets until your rooting for the drivers to fail just so you don't have to hear about how wonderful and perfect and fantastic they are (though then they'll drone on about how unlucky they are or how someone screwed them which is nearly as bad).

Yeah but we also get the UK commentary during the race down here, so it's not so 100% in your face. We have short breaks with the local guys saying AMW AMW AMW, then we get the race which is hardly about AMW*, mainly about alonso and hamilton. So it balances out a bit more than what happened with ITV, james allen and lewis hamilton

* local commentator can't say "mark webber", has to say "australia's mark webber', or 'aussie mark webber'

Dan B · Post by **Dan B** » 16 May 2010, 16:49

So apparently Schumi got penalized 20 seconds.
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/05/ ... d-20-secs/

If it weren't for Trulli's bullheadedness and Rubens' hissy fit I would have said Schumacher is the ROTR.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 16 May 2010, 16:51

I have some...

-Jarno Trulli: for performing a foolhardy move with potentially disastrous consequences, as well as leaving as without MLPT.
-McLaren pit crew: for his embarrassing mistake at leaving a radiator cover on Button's car, causing the engine to overheat and explode.
-Sauber: both cars retired. For mechanical troubles. Again. Will they learn?

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 16 May 2010, 16:57

I nominate "the newbies" collectively for ROTR. None of the new drivers and none of the new teams managed to finish the race.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 16 May 2010, 17:06

It's got to be Trulli - when was the last time you saw a genuine racing overtake into Rascasse? :roll:

Also although it pains me to say it, Williams deserve an honourable mention for throwing away what could have been a very promising weekend.

watka · Post by **watka** » 16 May 2010, 17:13

Dan B wrote:
fjackdaw wrote:
This from the Autosport article:

"The sporting rules state that, "If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."

The argument, however is whether the race finished under the safety car or this came into the pits as it would normally do after a period controlling the race."

And this is where the wording gets weird. There's this:

FIA wrote:Rule 40.13: If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

Either way it's going to end badly for someone.

Would you say that the safety car was coming in because it was the last lap, or because the track was safe to race on? Did the race technically end under safety car conditions? (Note that I've quoted the full wording of the rule above). And furthermore, how the hell is an F1 driver meant to keep these rules in mind whilst racing around at 100-odd mph?

I currently withhold my judgment on ROTR.

kowalski · Post by **kowalski** » 16 May 2010, 17:16

ROTR to the Badly worded rules

- If it takes an hour to work out if someone has broken a rule - something is wrong. If you arn't allowed to pass why have all the guys out there waving green flags? Why even pull the safety car in? Whay have the big 'Safety car in this lap message'????

- Why not just put out a message saying "Race to end under safety car conditions" and make it clear for everyone....

Oh and having Hill on the panel... Are they taking the mick???

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 16 May 2010, 17:25

DonTirri wrote:Hamilton was nowhere to be seen in the race, and once again got to his childish Whinelton ways for bitchin to the team over the radio about the brakes.

Yes, Don,

fjackdaw wrote:
pablo_h wrote:I have vested interest in this, but surely hulkenberg who pretty much crashed straight away!
I had a feeling he would, don't ask me why...

Are you up for his seat if he gets sacked?

I do have a vested interest in this one, but let me clarify that: Hulkenberg has suffered a front wing failure, that's why he plummeted to the wall. http://www.attwilliams.com/news/view/1375

It's going to be Williams, I'm afraid.

Valrys · Post by **Valrys** » 16 May 2010, 17:26

Pedestrian wrote:I nominate "the newbies" collectively for ROTR. None of the new drivers and none of the new teams managed to finish the race.

Uhh, did you actually watch the race?

watka · Post by **watka** » 16 May 2010, 17:26

kowalski wrote:ROTR to the Badly worded rules

- If it takes an hour to work out if someone has broken a rule - something is wrong. If you arn't allowed to pass why have all the guys out there waving green flags? Why even pull the safety car in? Whay have the big 'Safety car in this lap message'????

- Why not just put out a message saying "Race to end under safety car conditions" and make it clear for everyone....

Oh and having Hill on the panel... Are they taking the mick???

Actually, you are spot on with that comment. Why not keep the safety car out to take them across the line to avoid any confusion?

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 16 May 2010, 17:30

CarlosFerreira wrote:
DonTirri wrote:Hamilton was nowhere to be seen in the race, and once again got to his childish Whinelton ways for bitchin to the team over the radio about the brakes.

Yes, Don,

I do have a vested interest in this one, but let me clarify that: Hulkenberg has suffered a front wing failure, that's why he plummeted to the wall. http://www.attwilliams.com/news/view/1375

It's going to be Williams, I'm afraid.

Incase you didnt notice, i wasnt targeting Hamilton alone, so no need to be a prick.and its not like im attacking them for no reason.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 16 May 2010, 17:32

DonTirri wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
DonTirri wrote:Hamilton was nowhere to be seen in the race, and once again got to his childish Whinelton ways for bitchin to the team over the radio about the brakes.

Yes, Don,

Incase you didnt notice, i wasnt targeting Hamilton alone, so no need to be a prick.and its not like im attacking them for no reason.

I know, I'm kidding you mate. :mrgreen:

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 16 May 2010, 17:44

I'm going to go for Race Control, rather than the rules - the rules aren't that complicated, and there's no mystery to signalling whether the last 500 yards of the race are live or not -
If the safety car is coming on the last lap for the sake of the cameras, but the Full course Yellow remains active, you keep yellow flags waving.
If you're ending the Full Course Yellow amd pulling the safety car in (regardless of the end the number of laps left), you start waving greens.

The wrong procedure was followed.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 16 May 2010, 17:49

Jordan192 wrote:I'm going to go for Race Control, rather than the rules - the rules aren't that complicated, and there's no mystery to signalling whether the last 500 yards of the race are live or not -
If the safety car is coming on the last lap for the sake of the cameras, but the Full course Yellow remains active, you keep yellow flags waving.
If you're ending the Full Course Yellow amd pulling the safety car in (regardless of the end the number of laps left), you start waving greens.

The wrong procedure was followed.

I agree......

Dan B · Post by **Dan B** » 16 May 2010, 17:54

watka wrote:
Dan B wrote:
fjackdaw wrote:
This from the Autosport article:

"The sporting rules state that, "If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."

The argument, however is whether the race finished under the safety car or this came into the pits as it would normally do after a period controlling the race."

And this is where the wording gets weird. There's this:

FIA wrote:Rule 40.13: If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

Either way it's going to end badly for someone.

Would you say that the safety car was coming in because it was the last lap, or because the track was safe to race on? Did the race technically end under safety car conditions? (Note that I've quoted the full wording of the rule above). And furthermore, how the hell is an F1 driver meant to keep these rules in mind whilst racing around at 100-odd mph?

I currently withhold my judgment on ROTR.

I would say that it pulled in because it was the last lap and ended on safety car conditions.

And furthermore, how the hell is an F1 driver meant to keep these rules in mind whilst racing around at 100-odd mph?

Radio transmission telling the driver not to pass anyone? In that case someone at Mercedes needed to tell Schumi "The safety car is pulling in and we're going green but do not pass anyone."

If anything the race should have been red flagged.

tc3j3r · Post by **tc3j3r** » 16 May 2010, 17:58

The FIA. Rather than throwing around all sorts of radical, impractical solutions to create more overtaking surely the best and simplest solution would be to stop penalising drivers every time they actually have a go. It's ridiculous how much overtaking is discouraged at the moment.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 16 May 2010, 18:09

For me, it has to be Trulli. Inconsequential move for what, 16th? In the last couple of laps, at a place where no man or machine has ever thought about overtaking before. Ridiculous, it was always going to end badly, and it did. Thank God they were both OK, in particular Chandhok was lucky, the Lotus seemed to take a chunk out of that bit behind his head.

Dan B · Post by **Dan B** » 16 May 2010, 19:01

shinji wrote:For me, it has to be Trulli. Inconsequential move for what, 16th? In the last couple of laps, at a place where no man or machine has ever thought about overtaking before. Ridiculous, it was always going to end badly, and it did. Thank God they were both OK, in particular Chandhok was lucky, the Lotus seemed to take a chunk out of that bit behind his head.

This. Rather than the squabble between Alonso and Schumacher the FIA should take care of this accident. What Trulli did was plainly dumb (and I'm polite here).

Archie2K · Post by **Archie2K** » 16 May 2010, 19:32

Jordan192 wrote:I'm going to go for Race Control, rather than the rules - the rules aren't that complicated, and there's no mystery to signalling whether the last 500 yards of the race are live or not -
If the safety car is coming on the last lap for the sake of the cameras, but the Full course Yellow remains active, you keep yellow flags waving.
If you're ending the Full Course Yellow amd pulling the safety car in (regardless of the end the number of laps left), you start waving greens.

The wrong procedure was followed.

Whether the rules of race control, definitely ROTR for penalising a brilliant and daring overtake, that was IMO completely fair. The road was clear, and the message had come up to say safety car in this lap.

Saved Williams from ROTR ignomy.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 16 May 2010, 19:50

FIA, Stewards, Race Control, The rules, whatever you like to call it... Earlier this year they've let to much slip away, and now, they are penalizing a legal move?

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 16 May 2010, 19:53

Much as I'd like to give it to Williams for making not 1 but 2 cars that must have scared their drivers shitless, I've got a soft spot for them so I won't.

Much as I'd like to give it to Trulli for being very, very stupid I'll let him off because he must have practically given up by now.

No, I'm going for the following -

1) Celebrity stewards again.
AKA Got a grudge against another driver from *15 years ago*? - why not take it out on him by acting like a total arse!

Damon Hill is someone who I used to support but who is now, quite frankly, an embarassment to British motor racing. Even if Schumacher deserved a penalty (I think he didn't, and I'm a Ferrari and Alonso fan) why not just demote him back to 7th. 20 second penalty? Ludicrous.

2) McLaren
AKA Your favoured driver not doing very well and throwing regular strops? - why not 'accidentally' leave something on the unfavoured team-mate's car and scupper his race!

Um, nothing much to add there really...

coops · Post by **coops** » 16 May 2010, 19:58

Barbazza wrote:2) McLaren
AKA Your favoured driver not doing very well and throwing regular strops? - why not 'accidentally' leave something on the unfavoured team-mate's car and scupper his race!

I just bet they did, regardless of the expense! If it happens next race they'll probably get their chief mechanic to hit Button on the knee with a spanner or some other ridiculous suggestion!

You're a disgrace to The Holy Hair Of Barbazza! Shame on you :lol:

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 16 May 2010, 20:12

coops wrote:
Barbazza wrote:2) McLaren
AKA Your favoured driver not doing very well and throwing regular strops? - why not 'accidentally' leave something on the unfavoured team-mate's car and scupper his race!

I just bet they did, regardless of the expense! If it happens next race they'll probably get their chief mechanic to hit Button on the knee with a spanner or some other ridiculous suggestion!

You're a disgrace to The Holy Hair Of Barbazza! Shame on you

Good idea! :lol:

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 16 May 2010, 20:18

Williams, Williams, Williams, Williams- That was an awful weekend. 2 suspension failures from 1 driver in Q3, Rubens throwing his toys out of the pram (literally) and just a general day.

Mclaren- Ruined Button's day before it started and Lewis complaining once again. At this point, the chances that Mclaren can take the challenge to Red Bull are looking slim right now.

Jarno Trulli-You couldn't have fitted a needle through the gap he tried to pass through.

Leaving out the stewards because the penalty on Schumacher was warranted. They could have handled it differently but it was obvious that the move he made was illegal.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 16 May 2010, 20:21

Nominees would be:

Williams - they had it and they lost it

drain covers - why oh why?

Sauber - no reliability yet again

Button's mechanics - why sabotage the champion's title hunt?

but the icing on the cake was Trulli's move on Chandhok (literally on him)
So I'd pick Jarno Trulli for ROTR.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 16 May 2010, 20:26

In third place...
Williams
They were about as fast and reliable as a Lada Riva this weekend.

2nd goes to...
Jarno Trulli
What the bathplug was he thinking?! Overtaking at Rascasse is a stupid idea. Also let Alonso by far too easily.
Too aggressive when he needed to play it cool and lackadasical when he needed to be aggressive.

But ROTR of the Monaco GP has to be...
Rule 40.13
The FIA should have removed this at the end of 2009. I think what Schumi did was clever and actually made the final restart exciting rather than a procession. In the name of HWNSNBM, its how racing should be. Banning overtaking under green flags full stop is crazy. This should be fixed asap.

Alianora La Canta · Post by **Alianora La Canta** » 16 May 2010, 20:31

I'd like to nominate Barrichello for tossing his steering wheel into the path of an oncoming car. Yes, he was probably frustrated out of his mind at the time, but there could have been serious safety consequences to that. It takes some doing to net a ROTR nomination based purely on actions taken after your car has stopped for the last time, but I believe on this occasion it is merited.

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 16 May 2010, 20:31

Valrys wrote:
Pedestrian wrote:I nominate "the newbies" collectively for ROTR. None of the new drivers and none of the new teams managed to finish the race.

Uhh, did you actually watch the race?

Yes, of course I watched the race.
Is my observation not corect?

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 16 May 2010, 20:36

No wonder most drivers dont even try to overtake. Those who do get penalised. Its just sterilising F1. Besides, if the race was to finish, why pull in the safety car? Just keep it out, then theres no question about the situation

However, I have not fully seen the race yet, including the Chello and Trulli incidents, (just seen the Hulks crash and the Teutonic Titans overtake) so will hold out from making my final decision till I at least see said talking points as well, to be fair

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 16 May 2010, 20:38

The rules, then, for penalising someone making a fair move under green conditions. And I say that in no way as a Schumacher fan.

Dan B · Post by **Dan B** » 16 May 2010, 20:41

Pedestrian wrote:
Valrys wrote:
Pedestrian wrote:I nominate "the newbies" collectively for ROTR. None of the new drivers and none of the new teams managed to finish the race.

Uhh, did you actually watch the race?

Yes, of course I watched the race.
Is my observation not corect?

Di Grassi giving Alonso a run for his money in a car that clearly isn't up to snuff?

Chandhok moving through the field reliably until an F1 veteran decided to make a move at the worst possible spot?

Kovaleinen having a decent race (for Lotus) until the car let go?

Yes they didn't finish but to not give credit where it's appropriately due is not that fair.

IdeFan · Post by **IdeFan** » 16 May 2010, 20:42

Lots to chew on here:

As much as I normally like Lewis Hamilton, and as much as it displeases me to agree with the Arch-Hamilton-Basher DonTirri, I have to say Lewis's radio outburst was really uncalled for. The way I read the call was very much a "heads up" regarding brakes, the words they used were somthing like "higher than expected wear" and being less than halfway through the race it cannot have been close to failing, so the call was more asking Lewis to avoid a future problem, yet Hamilton responded with petulance that is becoming all to common this year.

Some disagreement with your team is, to a degree, healthy; only by criticising each other's mistakes can you avoid them in future, but Hamilton is doing it in the very public arena of team radio, and its making him look very childish.

I like a good conspiracy, and often stand up during podcasts, but I disagree with Barbazza on the favouritism front. McLaren have a constructors championship to win (they havn't won since 1998!) and on a weekend where they weren't in contention to win, they need both cars to pick up points and limit the damage, sabotaging Jenson Button doesn't make sense.

A much better conspiracy is Damon Hill and Michael Schumacher. I was ready to come here and applaud Schumie for rediscovering the ruthless, unsportsmanlike but technically legal streak that helped him to so much success. Clearly there was some confusion on the rules, and most people's initial reactions were that it was legal, so to be caught out on a technicality is unsatisfactory for the purists, but I love a good conspiracy more than I like watching Schumie be ruthless, so its all good!

However reject of the race must go to Williams. Monaco is one of the few places where they show regular pace, and in a high attrition race it was a great opportunity to capitalise, but they let it slip away after a promising qualifying. As a Williams fan this season is becoming very painful to watch

Jack O Malley · Post by **Jack O Malley** » 16 May 2010, 20:45

Trulli and Barrichello, for their attempts at killing other drivers.

Post by **mario** » 16 May 2010, 20:46

Barbazza wrote:Much as I'd like to give it to Williams for making not 1 but 2 cars that must have scared their drivers shitless, I've got a soft spot for them so I won't.

Much as I'd like to give it to Trulli for being very, very stupid I'll let him off because he must have practically given up by now.

No, I'm going for the following -

1) Celebrity stewards again.
AKA Got a grudge against another driver from *15 years ago*? - why not take it out on him by acting like a total arse!

Damon Hill is someone who I used to support but who is now, quite frankly, an embarassment to British motor racing. Even if Schumacher deserved a penalty (I think he didn't, and I'm a Ferrari and Alonso fan) why not just demote him back to 7th. 20 second penalty? Ludicrous.

2) McLaren
AKA Your favoured driver not doing very well and throwing regular strops? - why not 'accidentally' leave something on the unfavoured team-mate's car and scupper his race!

Um, nothing much to add there really...

Whether you agree or not with the penalty (having missed the incident, I do not want to pass judgement until I've seen the footage), the regulations make it clear that there are only three penalties which can be awarded. To quote

16.3 The stewards may impose any one of three penalties on any driver involved in an Incident :
a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping ;
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.
c) a drop of any number of grid positions at the driver’s next Event.
However, should either of the penalties under a) and b) above be imposed during the last five laps, or after the end of a race, Article 16.4b) below will not apply and 20 seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned in the case of a) above and 30 seconds in the case of b)

So, in other words, once the stewarding panel came to the conclusion that Schumacher deserved a penalty (whether it was right or not is another matter), the only penalty that the stewards could have applied was a time penalty.
That said, I feel sorry for the drivers who have agreed to act as stewards - they are only one of four stewards, and yet they are the only ones who get it in the neck when a driver is penalised.

Furthermore, concerning your comment about Mclaren. Are you seriously suggesting that Mclaren would throw away both the WDC and the WCC by sabotaging Button in a race where he was slower then Hamilton? No offence, but that just sounds far too far fetched for that to be credible.

Moving on, though, I would say that Rubens might be in with a chance of getting the award this time. True, it was probably a spur of the moment response, and I can understand that he would have been furious that, probably through no fault of his own, the place had been snatched away from him. However, throwing it onto the track in front of another car is pretty reckless. As Chandhok said, he could feel that the wheel was stuck under his car, before it dislodged itself whilst he was going through the tunnel - whereupon Bruno Senna ran over it. Now, although it didn't cause any damage, and the team could joke about it afterwards, that could have caused quite a bit of damage to someone who had hit that car. Moreover, the regulations state that you must leave the wheel in the car, so he has broken the rules with that one.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 16 May 2010, 20:56

Jack O Malley wrote:Trulli and Barrichello, for their attempts at killing other drivers.

They both attempted to kill the same man: Karun Chandhok.

Which reminds me, I wholly agree with your sentiments and have nothing more to add.

Aerond · Post by **Aerond** » 16 May 2010, 20:58

Williams, obviously!

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 16 May 2010, 21:04

Alianora La Canta wrote:I'd like to nominate Barrichello for tossing his steering wheel into the path of an oncoming car. Yes, he was probably frustrated out of his mind at the time, but there could have been serious safety consequences to that. It takes some doing to net a ROTR nomination based purely on actions taken after your car has stopped for the last time, but I believe on this occasion it is merited.

He was tweeting about it. Says he was scared, siting face-first in a place where other cars come in, no visibility, over 120 mph, after having a shunt at over that speed himself. To be honest, can't completely blame the man.

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 16 May 2010, 21:18

coops wrote:I just bet they did, regardless of the expense! If it happens next race they'll probably get their chief mechanic to hit Button on the knee with a spanner or some other ridiculous suggestion!

You're a disgrace to The Holy Hair Of Barbazza! Shame on you

I seem to have stirred it up a bit there! Yes, it wasn't an entirely serious suggestion, but I can't help disliking Lewis and McLaren. I have an entirely Mediterranean mentality there I suppose, it must be the crazy hair seeping through to my soul!

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 16 May 2010, 21:22

Oh, and Mario, thanks for posting the rules as now I can see that it's them that I should have nominated as my other reject, not the stewards as such. (though Damon's still an idiot!)

It does sadden me greatly that F1's the only sport where I have to explain to people who aren't followers exactly why such-and-such a penalty was imposed and just get blank stares back and the question 'why?'
They really need to apply a bit of common sense sometimes.