New York GP in Jersey City

coops · Post by **coops** » 25 May 2010, 18:17

Jeepers. If Lewis Hamilton get done for a minor driving offence before that race they'll put him on Death Row.

And cue the Hamilton-Haters...

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 25 May 2010, 18:24

thehemogoblin wrote:
shinji wrote:What odds something goes wrong with that race between now and then?

Not high. The Texas state government is supporting this. This will happen.

Not sure if that's a good thing or not.

This is what I think of if I think of Texas - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUTqW32gx9k

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 25 May 2010, 18:27

mario wrote:Speaking of American involvement in F1, this article has just appeared on Autosport, and will probably raise a few eyebrows - that Ferrari are looking to do a deal with Mullins, who is attempting to create an American entity which will enter the sport, primarily as a business parter to one of the teams.
Naturally, di Montezemolo has also expressed his support for a third car, but this time, he wants a Ferrari running in US racing colours, run by an American entity (a return to the North American Racing Team, or NART, days?).
Article here for those who want to mull it over - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83865

Seems like the same dog with another necklace to me. They still want three cars, but one of them ran by an American outfit. OK, then: Marlboro YouTube Scuderia Ferrari USF1 Team by Ferrari Stars and Stripes NART? To sum it up: WEIRD. I wonder if Montezemolo says this only to get some attention. The only feasible solution would be to supply a future USF1 bid with Ferrari engines.
Or maybe they want USF1 to become a Ferrari B team, and rename it NART? In my opinion, the last thing F1 needs right now, the most political team having a B squad.
And I don't think getting rid of Friday practice would be a good idea either. It's useful for teams to test a bit, especially for the small teams, and leaves third drivers a chance to drive a bit and gain experience.

kostas22 wrote:The US GP will return in 2012, but in Austin TX instead of NY.

An F1 race in (what I think is) Redneckville!?

Yeee-haaaa! [throws hat into the air and shoots a couple of Magnums while jumping and screaming] Ferrari wins again!
[facepalms]

billblackhollyf1 · Post by **billblackhollyf1** » 25 May 2010, 18:29

Formula 1 is returning to the states! surely a return for Scott Speed!

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 25 May 2010, 18:35

Yee-haw!

Post by **mario** » 25 May 2010, 18:38

Phoenix wrote:
mario wrote:Speaking of American involvement in F1, this article has just appeared on Autosport, and will probably raise a few eyebrows - that Ferrari are looking to do a deal with Mullins, who is attempting to create an American entity which will enter the sport, primarily as a business parter to one of the teams.
Naturally, di Montezemolo has also expressed his support for a third car, but this time, he wants a Ferrari running in US racing colours, run by an American entity (a return to the North American Racing Team, or NART, days?).
Article here for those who want to mull it over - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83865

Seems like the same dog with another necklace to me. They still want three cars, but one of them ran by an American outfit. OK, then: Marlboro YouTube Scuderia Ferrari USF1 Team by Ferrari Stars and Stripes NART? To sum it up: WEIRD. I wonder if Montezemolo says this only to get some attention. The only feasible solution would be to supply a future USF1 bid with Ferrari engines.
Or maybe they want USF1 to become a Ferrari B team, and rename it NART? In my opinion, the last thing F1 needs right now, the most political team having a B squad.
And I don't think getting rid of Friday practice would be a good idea either. It's useful for teams to test a bit, especially for the small teams, and leaves third drivers a chance to drive a bit and gain experience.
kostas22 wrote:The US GP will return in 2012, but in Austin TX instead of NY.

An F1 race in (what I think is) Redneckville!?

Yeee-haaaa! [throws hat into the air and shoots a couple of Magnums while jumping and screaming] Ferrari wins again!
[facepalms]
Do they have a circuit there?

Nope, they are having to build an entirely new complex to hold the race - I can kind of see why, considering that (apart from Indianapolis) all the US circuits would need a hefty upgrade to reach F1 safety criteria. Nevertheless, it is a bit of a surprise - especially since this seems to have just come out of the blue, as everybody was looking to places like New York. Although the designer has not been named, I bet that Tilke is already being called upon to design the new circuit (much as I defend the man from criticism, since I think that often he is unfairly criticised, I would like to see somebody else given a chance to design a circuit, so it has a different feel to it in comparison to the rest of the circuit list).

As for Di Montezemolo, he is still determined to get another Ferrari entity on the grid. The most likely thing that will happen is that a new team runs Ferrari engines, as you suggest, which leads into a technical partnership (much as Mclaren have with Force India) in later years. It isn't surprising, because, naturally enough, he wants Ferrari to win, and looks for ways to extend their advantage (then again, so do most of the other teams, so nothing new there). Overall, though, I posted the article more for amusement then serious debate, because I can't see any of his suggestions (the third car, allowing testing and banning Friday practise sessions) will go any further.

hammarthyme · Post by **hammarthyme** » 25 May 2010, 18:43

A race in Austin, do you know what this means?

Kegger at the moon tower!

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 25 May 2010, 18:55

shinji wrote:Yee-haw!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKr2Bw54vLM

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 25 May 2010, 18:57

How about... the future Ferrari America team to take over Sauber?... :geek:

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 25 May 2010, 19:57

Enforcer wrote:I think he's saying that in the event of certain types mechanical failure (throttle stuck open, brake failure) an asphalt run-off area won't slow the car down whilst gravel or sand will.

Correct, I wasn't talking about the suggestion =) Just in general terms, as I really dislike asphalt runoffs, I find them more dangerous than gravel.

watka · Post by **watka** » 25 May 2010, 20:10

shinji wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:
shinji wrote:What odds something goes wrong with that race between now and then?

Not high. The Texas state government is supporting this. This will happen.

Not sure if that's a good thing or not.

This is what I think of if I think of Texas - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUTqW32gx9k

One of the pastors at the church I go to, who is Texan, started a sermon by saying he was involved in a drive-by shooting as the driver, and people genuinely believed him. He then announced that he would show everyone the weapon that was used, and he pulled out a super-soaker.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 25 May 2010, 20:27

watka wrote:
shinji wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:Not high. The Texas state government is supporting this. This will happen.

Not sure if that's a good thing or not.

This is what I think of if I think of Texas - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUTqW32gx9k

One of the pastors at the church I go to, who is Texan, started a sermon by saying he was involved in a drive-by shooting as the driver, and people genuinely believed him. He then announced that he would show everyone the weapon that was used, and he pulled out a super-soaker.

Sounds like a neat guy.

watka · Post by **watka** » 25 May 2010, 20:32

shinji wrote:
watka wrote:
shinji wrote:
This is what I think of if I think of Texas - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUTqW32gx9k

One of the pastors at the church I go to, who is Texan, started a sermon by saying he was involved in a drive-by shooting as the driver, and people genuinely believed him. He then announced that he would show everyone the weapon that was used, and he pulled out a super-soaker.

Sounds like a neat guy.

Yeah, he's a real showman. Church doesn't have to be boring, people!

Post by **mario** » 25 May 2010, 21:49

Myrvold wrote:
Enforcer wrote:I think he's saying that in the event of certain types mechanical failure (throttle stuck open, brake failure) an asphalt run-off area won't slow the car down whilst gravel or sand will.

Correct, I wasn't talking about the suggestion =) Just in general terms, as I really dislike asphalt runoffs, I find them more dangerous than gravel.

Ah, OK, now I get what you are trying to get at (although with the past accidents you picked, the run off area had negligible effect - in Senna's case, there were many other contributing factors, whilst in the case of Schumacher, his injuries were caused by a major flaw in the design of the chassis itself which allowed parts of the suspension to 'punch' into the footwell).
That said, gravel isn't always that effective - after a while, compaction means that the surface of the gravel tends to be relatively hard, so cars tend to skim over the top of the gravel traps at higher speeds, and don't always slow down that much. After all, take Australia - we saw that it was relatively easy for Mark Webber to keep going even after he went through the gravel traps on more than one occasion.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 26 May 2010, 00:03

Hooray! An F1 race in a place with no prior F1 history, no track, no plans and having to build a track from the ground up in 1 and a half years. Notwithstanding this place is in Texas of all places (shades of Dallas '84), the place where so much F1 history happened (the first time a track broke up due to the heat) and not in one of the tons of tracks in the US that already exist.

(Note: Austin is actually a nice city, its slightly cooler than the rest of Texas.)

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 26 May 2010, 01:50

tristan1117 wrote:Hooray! An F1 race in a place with no prior F1 history, no track, no plans and having to build a track from the ground up in 1 and a half years. Notwithstanding this place is in Texas of all places (shades of Dallas '84), the place where so much F1 history happened (the first time a track broke up due to the heat) and not in one of the tons of tracks in the US that already exist.

(Note: Austin is actually a nice city, its slightly cooler than the rest of Texas.)

You're just bitter that the race isn't being held in New York.

Gilles27 · Post by **Gilles27** » 26 May 2010, 10:34

Remember this?

04 July 2008

Following discussions with Formula One Management, the FIA has confirmed that the British Grand Prix will be retained on the Formula One World Championship calendar, moving from Silverstone to its new home of Donington Park from 2010.

FIA President Max Mosley said, “After many years of patient but fruitless negotiation with (Silverstone owners) the BRDC (British Racing Drivers' Club), we are delighted that Bernie (Ecclestone) has nevertheless been able to ensure that the British Grand Prix will keep its place on the Formula One World Championship calendar.

“We understand that the development programme planned for Donington will achieve the very high standards we and FOM expect from a modern F1 circuit. Finally, British Formula One fans will get the Grand Prix venue they deserve.”

FOM President Bernie Ecclestone said, “Finally the uncertainty is over. A contract has been signed with Donington Park and the future of the British Grand prix is now secure.

“We wanted a world class venue for Formula One in Britain, something that the teams and British F1 fans could be proud of. The major development plans for Donington will give us exactly that. A venue that will put British motor sport back on the map.”

“I am sorry that we could not have helped Silverstone to raise the money to carry out the circuit improvements and run Formula One. I believe that the government should have supported them which would have cost probably less than .002% of the government’s commitment for the Olympic Games.”

Donington Park last staged a round of the FIA Formula One World Championship in 1993, when Ayrton Senna took arguably his most famous wet-weather victory in the European Grand Prix. On the back of their new 10-year agreement, the East Midlands circuit is planning a five-year, £100 million development programme to ensure a first-class facility is in place for the 2010 race.

In a joint statement, Donington Park owners and joint CEOs Simon Gillett and Lee Gill said: “We are naturally delighted and extremely proud to have acquired the rights to bring Formula One back to Donington Park from 2010. At the beginning of last year when we acquired the circuit and its substantial lands, we made clear our commitment towards realising the full potential of the Park by making the necessary investments in current and future events that will see Donington revitalised ensuring its leading position as one of the most iconic racing circuits in the world.

“To that end, we have now entered a new and exciting chapter in the development of the Park and one that will bring significant investment and regional development while securing the future of one of the most important and significant sporting events in Britain.”

The funding for the Donington Park development will be led by a private investor who is also a large shareholder. Exact details of the venue’s plans will be released at a later date.

I think this is the same thing again. If I were a hotelier in Indianapolis I would be very happy with this announcement as it sounds like Bernie is serious about there being a USGP. It's just a shame that he has to raise the hopes of people in Texas, the same way he did to those at Donington.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 26 May 2010, 12:19

watka wrote:Yeah, he's a real showman. Church doesn't have to be boring, people!

Yeah! And the Valencia Street Circuit can be very entertaining indeed!

tristan1117 wrote:Hooray! An F1 race in a place with no prior F1 history, no track, no plans and having to build a track from the ground up in 1 and a half years. Notwithstanding this place is in Texas of all places (shades of Dallas '84), the place where so much F1 history happened (the first time a track broke up due to the heat) and not in one of the tons of tracks in the US that already exist.
(Note: Austin is actually a nice city, its slightly cooler than the rest of Texas.)

Will we see an HRT soldiering home to take 5th place and Kovalainen trying to push his dry Lotus over the finish line to score a 6th? And Barrichello doing a great race to win for Williams for the first time since 2004?

Gilles27 wrote:Remember this?
04 July 2008

Following discussions with Formula One Management, the FIA has confirmed that the British Grand Prix will be retained on the Formula One World Championship calendar, moving from Silverstone to its new home of Donington Park from 2010.

FIA President Max Mosley said, “After many years of patient but fruitless negotiation with (Silverstone owners) the BRDC (British Racing Drivers' Club), we are delighted that Bernie (Ecclestone) has nevertheless been able to ensure that the British Grand Prix will keep its place on the Formula One World Championship calendar.

“We understand that the development programme planned for Donington will achieve the very high standards we and FOM expect from a modern F1 circuit. Finally, British Formula One fans will get the Grand Prix venue they deserve.”

FOM President Bernie Ecclestone said, “Finally the uncertainty is over. A contract has been signed with Donington Park and the future of the British Grand prix is now secure.

“We wanted a world class venue for Formula One in Britain, something that the teams and British F1 fans could be proud of. The major development plans for Donington will give us exactly that. A venue that will put British motor sport back on the map.”

“I am sorry that we could not have helped Silverstone to raise the money to carry out the circuit improvements and run Formula One. I believe that the government should have supported them which would have cost probably less than .002% of the government’s commitment for the Olympic Games.”

Donington Park last staged a round of the FIA Formula One World Championship in 1993, when Ayrton Senna took arguably his most famous wet-weather victory in the European Grand Prix. On the back of their new 10-year agreement, the East Midlands circuit is planning a five-year, £100 million development programme to ensure a first-class facility is in place for the 2010 race.

In a joint statement, Donington Park owners and joint CEOs Simon Gillett and Lee Gill said: “We are naturally delighted and extremely proud to have acquired the rights to bring Formula One back to Donington Park from 2010. At the beginning of last year when we acquired the circuit and its substantial lands, we made clear our commitment towards realising the full potential of the Park by making the necessary investments in current and future events that will see Donington revitalised ensuring its leading position as one of the most iconic racing circuits in the world.

“To that end, we have now entered a new and exciting chapter in the development of the Park and one that will bring significant investment and regional development while securing the future of one of the most important and significant sporting events in Britain.”

The funding for the Donington Park development will be led by a private investor who is also a large shareholder. Exact details of the venue’s plans will be released at a later date.

I think this is the same thing again. If I were a hotelier in Indianapolis I would be very happy with this announcement as it sounds like Bernie is serious about there being a USGP. It's just a shame that he has to raise the hopes of people in Texas, the same way he did to those at Donington.

If they can raise the money and have the circuit ready at time, they should host a F1 event. I preferred Monticello over this, though.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 26 May 2010, 18:57

I know they were from Georgia and not from Texas, but still: *Dukes Of Hazzard music*

EDIT: Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPWHfrU3PSQ <- Nelsinho Piquet should listen to that too.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 27 May 2010, 01:04

Hermann Tilke has been commissioned to do the design (at least, according to Adam Cooper's blog). His design brief is apaprently to produce something fast and challenging, and the circuit owers have purchased some 800 acres of hilly terrain near the airport. Hopefully fast + challening + hills = something like Istanbul.

Mister Fungus · Post by **Mister Fungus** » 27 May 2010, 05:04

Gilles27 wrote:Remember this?
I think this is the same thing again. If I were a hotelier in Indianapolis I would be very happy with this announcement as it sounds like Bernie is serious about there being a USGP. It's just a shame that he has to raise the hopes of people in Texas, the same way he did to those at Donington.

I see no basis on which those two are similar.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 27 May 2010, 10:30

Captain Hammer wrote:Hermann Tilke has been commissioned to do the design (at least, according to Adam Cooper's blog). His design brief is apaprently to produce something fast and challenging, and the circuit owers have purchased some 800 acres of hilly terrain near the airport. Hopefully fast + challening + hills = something like Istanbul.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83891

Over 700 acres (so 800 not far off).

Race promoters wrote:The track would be "one of the finest permanent road course facilities in the world. Fans should expect the craftsmanship Tilke is famous for, with a priority placed on green building and a track similar to the great grand prix tracks of previous generations."

Do we believe this quotation at the end? I'm not holding my breath over it... If they could get Paddock Hill Bend and Eau Rouge at least into it, then it might stand a chance.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 27 May 2010, 13:01

dr-baker wrote:
Race promoters wrote:The track would be "one of the finest permanent road course facilities in the world. Fans should expect the craftsmanship Tilke is famous for, with a priority placed on green building and a track similar to the great grand prix tracks of previous generations."

Do we believe this quotation at the end? I'm not holding my breath over it... If they could get Paddock Hill Bend and Eau Rouge at least into it, then it might stand a chance.

That is quite a quote. I've never seen myself any big similarity between Tilke-designed circuits and well-known old tracks such as Monza or Spa.

RAK · Post by **RAK** » 27 May 2010, 13:53

Phoenix wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
Race promoters wrote:The track would be "one of the finest permanent road course facilities in the world. Fans should expect the craftsmanship Tilke is famous for, with a priority placed on green building and a track similar to the great grand prix tracks of previous generations."

Do we believe this quotation at the end? I'm not holding my breath over it... If they could get Paddock Hill Bend and Eau Rouge at least into it, then it might stand a chance.

That is quite a quote. I've never seen myself any big similarity between Tilke-designed circuits and well-known old tracks such as Monza or Spa.

There is Faux Rouge in Istanbul, but that's just one corner out of the dozens on Tilke's tracks in Formula One.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 27 May 2010, 14:24

dr-baker wrote:Do we believe this quotation at the end? I'm not holding my breath over it... If they could get Paddock Hill Bend and Eau Rouge at least into it, then it might stand a chance.

If there is any comparison to be made, Austin is like Istanbul: it's got hills. And when Tilke got that tract of land in Turkey, he pounced on it. There's a reason why the Istanbul circuit is considered his best - it's because it is set over four different levels of terrain. Tilke says he draws his inspiration from the Nurburgring, and while some of his circuits are maddening for fans, almost all of them have at least one corner that is challengeing:

Turkey's turn eight, for obvious reasons
Bahrain's turns 9 and 10 require a driver to brake and steer through turn nine to get the apex of turn ten, which is incredibly difficult in any racing car, much less a Formula 1 machine
Sepang's turns seven and eight are two turns that are very separate, but treated as one bend
Sepang's turns twelve, thirteen and fourteen might be three corners, but they are spaced and angled so that the drivers can only hit two apexes and they have to decide which ones they will hit
Abu Dhabi's turn nine is the only negative-camber corner in the championship
Abu Dhabi's turns fifteen, sixteen and seventeen are like Turkey's turn eight, but they get tighter as they go
Shanghai's turns seven to ten feature to fast-but-tightening corners into a double-apex bend that opens outwards

Singapore and Valencia are exceptions to the rule because he was forced to use city streets; likewise Hockenheim because he never had anything to work with.

Post by **mario** » 27 May 2010, 14:28

Phoenix wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
Race promoters wrote:The track would be "one of the finest permanent road course facilities in the world. Fans should expect the craftsmanship Tilke is famous for, with a priority placed on green building and a track similar to the great grand prix tracks of previous generations."

Do we believe this quotation at the end? I'm not holding my breath over it... If they could get Paddock Hill Bend and Eau Rouge at least into it, then it might stand a chance.

That is quite a quote. I've never seen myself any big similarity between Tilke-designed circuits and well-known old tracks such as Monza or Spa.

Then again, there are several generations of both drivers and cars between those circuits and Tilke, and a lot has changed between then and now, so it isn't surprising that the modern tracks are quite different in character. After all, when Monza was being created back in the 1920's, most of the manufacturers which are in the sport today had only just come into existence (and some hadn't even do so yet - Enzo Ferrari, for example, was still dutifully working away in Alfa Romeo's racing division), and we had figures like Caracciola and Nuvolari.

That said, it isn't enough to just simply thread together a few famous corners, since it is the context in which those corners are which is important. Eau Rouge, for example, would not be as exciting if the cars were going at, say, half their current speed, since part of the thrill of that corner is the fact that the cars are going flat out. The same could be said about corners like 130R at Suzuka, or the Ascari chicane at Monza
Equally, great corners don't always produce great overtaking spots - for example, many praise the opening sector of Silverstone for demonstrating the sheer speed and nimbleness of an F1 car at high speed, but it doesn't offer much in terms of passing. If you end up with a track where the racing line is very narrow, then it doesn't matter how great the corners are, because you'll just end up with a procession.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 27 May 2010, 14:57

Captain Hammer wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Do we believe this quotation at the end? I'm not holding my breath over it... If they could get Paddock Hill Bend and Eau Rouge at least into it, then it might stand a chance.

If there is any comparison to be made, Austin is like Istanbul: it's got hills. And when Tilke got that tract of land in Turkey, he pounced on it. There's a reason why the Istanbul circuit is considered his best - it's because it is set over four different levels of terrain. Tilke says he draws his inspiration from the Nurburgring, and while some of his circuits are maddening for fans, almost all of them have at least one corner that is challengeing:
Turkey's turn eight, for obvious reasons
Bahrain's turns 9 and 10 require a driver to brake and steer through turn nine to get the apex of turn ten, which is incredibly difficult in any racing car, much less a Formula 1 machine
Sepang's turns seven and eight are two turns that are very separate, but treated as one bend
Sepang's turns twelve, thirteen and fourteen might be three corners, but they are spaced and angled so that the drivers can only hit two apexes and they have to decide which ones they will hit
Abu Dhabi's turn nine is the only negative-camber corner in the championship
Abu Dhabi's turns fifteen, sixteen and seventeen are like Turkey's turn eight, but they get tighter as they go
Shanghai's turns seven to ten feature to fast-but-tightening corners into a double-apex bend that opens outwards
Singapore and Valencia are exceptions to the rule because he was forced to use city streets; likewise Hockenheim because he never had anything to work with.

And of all those corners you listed, only Istanbul's turn 8 needed no explanation for spectators. If it were purely a driving challenge, and nothing else, that would suggest that track days would be popular for spectators. But nobody goes to watch track days. The driving challenge should always come second to the track producing good racing, or at least a good spectatcle (like Monaco in the latter example).

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 27 May 2010, 15:48

dr-baker wrote:And of all those corners you listed, only Istanbul's turn 8 needed no explanation for spectators. If it were purely a driving challenge, and nothing else, that would suggest that track days would be popular for spectators. But nobody goes to watch track days. The driving challenge should always come second to the track producing good racing, or at least a good spectatcle (like Monaco in the latter example).

I agree, but let us consider that when Monza, Spa, Silverstone, etc were designed, they certainly didn't have 'the show' in mind. Indeed back then, the sport as we consider it now didn't even exist, it was more of a sunday afternoon leisure pursuit of the wealthy, with the locals turning up to see what all the fuss was about.

The tracks were built to test the cars driven on them, and because of that elements such as elevation change and corner combinations were important. Now people want to see passing, from cars that have had that aspect designed out of them which has led to the creation of enormous straights followed by slow, sharp turns with big, heavy braking areas. For all intents and purposes, I think we can agree that this sort of layout combined with a lack of elevation change is dull, tedious and boring. Consequently, the circuits of yesteryear that still appear on the calender like Silverstone and Spa aren't that conducive to overtaking and have quite wrongly taken criticism from some corners that they produce dull races. Silverstone has had its upgrades this year which in my opinion are good because it largely removes the 'mickey mouse' complex at the end of the lap with the exception of Luffield.

I'm not denouncing overtaking at all, I love to see a good bit of action but it must not come at the detriment of good circuits and new circuit designs thats all. People need to take a long look at themselves and ask what they actually want from F1. Do they want wheel-to-wheel action on circuits that encourage that sort of racing? Even taking into account the regulation changes likely over the next few years, it won't transform the sport, and neither will circuits designed to facilitate close racing because as I've mentioned, its been designed out of the cars ever since the introduction of aerodynamics and the limits of two cars per constructor. If you want to see close racing go watch some BTCC or World Superbikes.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 27 May 2010, 16:16

AndreaModa wrote:
I agree, but let us consider that when Monza, Spa, Silverstone, etc were designed, they certainly didn't have 'the show' in mind. Indeed back then, the sport as we consider it now didn't even exist, it was more of a sunday afternoon leisure pursuit of the wealthy, with the locals turning up to see what all the fuss was about.

Fair point. Can't argue with that. But these tracks still seem to get more support on forums like ours compared to Tilke-dromes...

AndreaModa wrote: If you want to see close racing go watch some BTCC or World Superbikes.

I do. I really enjoy going to Brands Hatch for the BTCC. And the tin-tops do seem to produce more consistent entertainment than the F. Renault UK that normally compete on the same bill...

coops · Post by **coops** » 27 May 2010, 17:05

Captain Hammer wrote:Hermann Tilke has been commissioned to do the design (at least, according to Adam Cooper's blog). His design brief is apaprently to produce something fast and challenging, and the circuit owers have purchased some 800 acres of hilly terrain near the airport. Hopefully fast + challening + hills = something like Istanbul.

Er. Is it just me or are the Tilke designed tracks usually very dull and uninspiring compared to the others? Oh yes he has his moments, exiting the pits and going under the track is very, er, novel and pretty but it doesnt add to the racing much.

When I read about this I hoped old Herman would have nothing to do with it. Now I know hes getting busy with his crayons I can already see the Austin track and it looks very much like all the others.

Post by **mario** » 27 May 2010, 19:17

coops wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:Hermann Tilke has been commissioned to do the design (at least, according to Adam Cooper's blog). His design brief is apaprently to produce something fast and challenging, and the circuit owers have purchased some 800 acres of hilly terrain near the airport. Hopefully fast + challening + hills = something like Istanbul.

Er. Is it just me or are the Tilke designed tracks usually very dull and uninspiring compared to the others? Oh yes he has his moments, exiting the pits and going under the track is very, er, novel and pretty but it doesnt add to the racing much.

When I read about this I hoped old Herman would have nothing to do with it. Now I know hes getting busy with his crayons I can already see the Austin track and it looks very much like all the others.

As has been pointed out in another thread, there aren't that many rival designers. From FOM's point of view, Tilke's company have managed the projects very well compared to rival consortiums (i.e. they manage to keep to schedule and budget), so they know that he will be capable of delivering the track, packed with the usual fancy facilities for the teams and the paddock that Bernie will love so much.
Well, we will see what Tilke can come up with this time around - at least the terrain is a bit more promising this time around, since there are a few hills, so if we're lucky we might get something like Istanbul Park (well, we can hope).

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 28 May 2010, 13:45

Captain Hammer wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Do we believe this quotation at the end? I'm not holding my breath over it... If they could get Paddock Hill Bend and Eau Rouge at least into it, then it might stand a chance.

If there is any comparison to be made, Austin is like Istanbul: it's got hills. And when Tilke got that tract of land in Turkey, he pounced on it. There's a reason why the Istanbul circuit is considered his best - it's because it is set over four different levels of terrain. Tilke says he draws his inspiration from the Nurburgring, and while some of his circuits are maddening for fans, almost all of them have at least one corner that is challengeing:
Turkey's turn eight, for obvious reasons
Bahrain's turns 9 and 10 require a driver to brake and steer through turn nine to get the apex of turn ten, which is incredibly difficult in any racing car, much less a Formula 1 machine
Sepang's turns seven and eight are two turns that are very separate, but treated as one bend
Sepang's turns twelve, thirteen and fourteen might be three corners, but they are spaced and angled so that the drivers can only hit two apexes and they have to decide which ones they will hit
Abu Dhabi's turn nine is the only negative-camber corner in the championship
Abu Dhabi's turns fifteen, sixteen and seventeen are like Turkey's turn eight, but they get tighter as they go
Shanghai's turns seven to ten feature to fast-but-tightening corners into a double-apex bend that opens outwards
Singapore and Valencia are exceptions to the rule because he was forced to use city streets; likewise Hockenheim because he never had anything to work with.

Combining those, I was sort of able to make this:

Does that look like a good track?

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 28 May 2010, 17:19

Waris, that depends on which way it's running.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 28 May 2010, 18:27

No pit lane/start-finish straight...

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 28 May 2010, 21:51

dr-baker wrote:No pit lane/start-finish straight...

I would put it in front of Istanbul's turn eight and then lengthen the entrance into the Shanghai combination as well.

Pepys · Post by **Pepys** » 29 May 2010, 03:20

Consequently, the circuits of yesteryear that still appear on the calender like Silverstone and Spa aren't that conducive to overtaking and have quite wrongly taken criticism from some corners that they produce dull races.

I have to take exception to that. Spa tends to produce some of the most overtaking of any circuit on the calender -- because of the intensely long straights that allow cars to actually draft long enough to get alongside each other. Silverstone, on the other hand, is very similar to Barcelona. There's only one line, so there's no passing. It's boring. The age of the track has a lot less to do with its quality than its inherent characteristics.

I, for one, DON'T want the new tracks to resemble the old tracks. The old tracks were designed when cars weren't nearly as quick and when safety was much less important. I'm sure they were cool 30-50-70 years ago but now they're all wrecked by chicanes. What we really need are tracks with straights that allow drivers to get alongside each other with turn-complexes at the end that don't force the guy making the move back in line. I'm sure it's possible to do that in a variety of interesting ways. And tracks don't need to be like that entirely, just once or twice a lap to make sure people can get by if they're quicker.

The thing that most concerns me about this Austin race is the potential date. Autosport implies it'll be in mid-June. I'm from Austin, I love it, I think it'll be great for F1, but it's just WAY TOO HOT in Texas in mid-June to run the race then. It's got to be earlier or later in the year or people will be miserable.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 29 May 2010, 07:12

Pepys wrote:Spa tends to produce some of the most overtaking of any circuit on the calender -- because of the intensely long straights that allow cars to actually draft long enough to get alongside each other.

How, then, do you explain the lack of overtaking at Shanghai, Fuji and Abu Dhabi? All have straights that longer than the ones at Spa followed by heavy braking zones - again, like the ones at Spa - that by your logic should allow the cars to draft long enough to get alongside one another?

The problem is not the circuits. It's the cars. They produce an intense wake at the back that makes it bloody difficult to get close to another driver because it renders the front wing assembly ineffective.

RAK · Post by **RAK** » 29 May 2010, 07:52

Captain Hammer wrote:
Pepys wrote:Spa tends to produce some of the most overtaking of any circuit on the calender -- because of the intensely long straights that allow cars to actually draft long enough to get alongside each other.

How, then, do you explain the lack of overtaking at Shanghai, Fuji and Abu Dhabi? All have straights that longer than the ones at Spa followed by heavy braking zones - again, like the ones at Spa - that by your logic should allow the cars to draft long enough to get alongside one another?

The problem is not the circuits. It's the cars. They produce an intense wake at the back that makes it bloody difficult to get close to another driver because it renders the front wing assembly ineffective.

At the Tilke-designed circuits, though, there are long straights followed by higher-downforce sections than found at Spa. Obviously, the cars have something to do with it, but perhaps the cars are more compromised under braking at Spa, making overtaking slightly easier than at the likes of Abu Dhabi. (Also, note that wet conditions at Shanghai have created the most overtaking opportunities of any track for years.)

Pepys · Post by **Pepys** » 29 May 2010, 13:28

The particulars of the pre-straight corners are equally important. Part of the problem in Barcelona, say, is that awful chicane + high downforce turn combination right before the straight, which makes it tough for trailing cars to get a good run. So you need some slow, mechanical grip corners just before the straight.

I'll go ahead and say though, I'd rather get rid of a lot of aero in an attempt to encourage cars that can follow each other through higher speed corners. I don't like the idea of designing tracks around the way the cars work now, it's the wrong solution.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 29 May 2010, 15:12

dr-baker wrote:No pit lane/start-finish straight...

The pit lane was supposed to go on the straight before the Sepang corner.
It's also intended to run counterclockwise. I wonder what thehemogoblin thinks of that.