Old Hockenheim to return?

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

Earlier in the week, I read somewhere in the newspaper that if the track is relieved from being the venue, the owners intend on returning the track back to its former layout. In my opinion, I would rather have the classic track back than put up with Tilke's crap.

[AndreaModa]

I doubt it, they've reforested the whole area haven't they? Would cost millions to rip all the trees out and put new track down, and thats after it looking like a completely ridiculous u-turn by a circuit which is struggling as it is. Would be a daft move imo, they've made their bed now they've got to lie in it.

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

I doubt it, they've reforested the whole area haven't they? Would cost millions to rip all the trees out and put new track down, and thats after it looking like a completely ridiculous u-turn by a circuit which is struggling as it is. Would be a daft move imo, they've made their bed now they've got to lie in it.

Yes, they have reforested the area. (sigh). It's pretty much Tilke's fault Hockenheim is in the situation they are. It's an unpopular and boring circuit. The excuse why the classic circuit was ripped apart was because spectators couldn't see the action on the straights?

Common sense= Build more stands along the straights.

[jackanderton]

Now the spectators can't see the action anywhere, because it doesn't exist.

[coops]

The excuse why the classic circuit was ripped apart was because spectators couldn't see the action on the straights?

I dont buy that. There are no tracks where you can see all the action all of the time, thats why we have enormous screens to show the TV feed. Its been pretty clear for years that Bernie is more concerned about TV audiences than the poor schmuck at the track, and the TV audiences (like most of us) really liked the old track. I think it was changed for other reasons but I've no idea what.

Bottom line;

Old Hockenheim - Good.
New "Hockenheim" - Pants

[eagleash]

The TV question may well be part of the problem. I seem to remember that TV at one time found it awkward to cover because of the forested areas, & it was difficult to provide the level of spectator facilities demanded by Bernie etc. There was also conjecture that some teams didn't like it because the flat out sections could be hard on the machinery, that the track was too long in the modern F1 era, & set-up was difficult because of the long straights & tighter stadium sections.
In 2000 someone got onto the track on the first straight highlighting security problems with the outlying areas.
The 2000 race was also run in varying weather conditions with at least one lairy accident (Alesi).

[Pedestrian]

I doubt it, they've reforested the whole area haven't they? Would cost millions to rip all the trees out and put new track down, and thats after it looking like a completely ridiculous u-turn by a circuit which is struggling as it is. Would be a daft move imo, they've made their bed now they've got to lie in it.

Yes, they have reforested the area. (sigh). It's pretty much Tilke's fault Hockenheim is in the situation they are.

That is pretty unfair of you to say. It's Bernie's fault that Hockenheim was rebuilt because he came up with the ideea (like he came up with all the other unworkable ideas for new circuits in wrong places). Tilke deserves praise for pulling it off this time. Yes, the old Hockenheim was one of the best circuits in the calendar, and redesigning it was a great waste, but the new version is a good circuit in it's own right. I can't remember a single boring race since the new track was inaugurated, even the 2002 and 2004 events were pretty good. For me Hockenheim is still the second best circuit on the calendar, after Spa.

So give credit where credit is due. In this case, Tilke took one of Bernies most idiotic ideeas and actually made it work.

[DemocalypseNow]

I dont buy that. There are no tracks where you can see all the action all of the time, thats why we have enormous screens to show the TV feed.

Not true. At Eurospeedway Lausitz you can see the entire track from the huge grandstand at the finish, and at Interlagos you can see the whole track bar the Senna S from the stand at the top of the hill of the final corner.

And there's Knockhill, but well it was inevitable considering it's a 50 second lap in an F3000 car

[coops]

at Interlagos you can see the whole track bar the Senna S from the stand at the top of the hill of the final corner.

Well, you cant see all of Interlagos then can you? But, yeah, Id hope that at most ovals/superspeedways you can see all the track but as we know F1 doesnt want to race on ovals, perhaps because the racing may be too dull.

This from a series that gives us Tilkenheim, Germany.

[WeirdKerr]

Am i the only person here to think that the old Hockenheim layout was dull......

[thalion]

Am i the only person here to think that the old Hockenheim layout was dull......

no, you're not. i'm with you on this one, and i also agree with pedestrian that hockenheim has produced some great action since it was reconfigured.

[Mister Fungus]

Am i the only person here to think that the old Hockenheim layout was dull......

I thought so too, I guess we could put that in the "unpopular F1 opinion" topic. AFAIK though the reason they shortened Hockenheim was because emergency cars couldn't get to some distant parts of the track quickly because there were not enough access roads and they were forbidden to remove the forest inside and around the track to build extra pathways.

[AndreaModa]

Am i the only person here to think that the old Hockenheim layout was dull......

I thought so too, I guess we could put that in the "unpopular F1 opinion" topic. AFAIK though the reason they shortened Hockenheim was because emergency cars couldn't get to some distant parts of the track quickly because there were not enough access roads and they were forbidden to remove the forest inside and around the track to build extra pathways.

But they were to create all the new sections of track?

...sigh...

[Mister Fungus]

Hah, don't ask me the details it was probably between them and the politicians. The old track did get reforested after all, so maybe they used that to offset any loss of forest in the new section.

[eagleash]

Am i the only person here to think that the old Hockenheim layout was dull......

I thought so too, I guess we could put that in the "unpopular F1 opinion" topic. AFAIK though the reason they shortened Hockenheim was because emergency cars couldn't get to some distant parts of the track quickly because there were not enough access roads and they were forbidden to remove the forest inside and around the track to build extra pathways.

But they were to create all the new sections of track?

...sigh...

I'm guessing that that there was a proviso that they had to re-forest the "old" circuit to compensate for the trees torn up to make the new one. Whereas if they dug up trees within the original track they would just be lost.
Mister Fungus is I think also correct with the point about emergency vehicles. The nature of the original circuit made it difficult to station vehicles around the track as is seen at some other circuits.

[watka]

Add me to the list of defenders of the new Hockenheim. The old one was good, but the new Hockenheim is a different beast, and can't be compared. The new circuit has 3 sectors, all with different challenges, and it provokes good racing. Button driving one handed and reeling in Schumacher in 2004 in one of my fondest memories of the place.

[mario]

Add me to the list of defenders of the new Hockenheim. The old one was good, but the new Hockenheim is a different beast, and can't be compared. The new circuit has 3 sectors, all with different challenges, and it provokes good racing. Button driving one handed and reeling in Schumacher in 2004 in one of my fondest memories of the place.

You know, I thought that I was going to be on my own if I said that I wasn't a fan of the original track, but it seems that perhaps it isn't as unpopular an opinion as I first thought.
To be honest, the original layout just never appealed to me - the high speed sections didn't have any really interesting corners, and the stadium section always felt like a slightly clumsy addition. And, to be honest, James Hunt made a very good point about the track when he referred to the "two by two" nature of the track, since it really separated the cars according to engine power and straight line speed, which meant that in some years, the races could be fairly uninteresting.

And to be fair to Tilke, there were a number of limitations on what he could build. As pointed out by Mister Fungus, emergency access was a major issue with the old track. Suppose, for example, we had a similar accident to Webber's crash, but suppose the car that was flipped landed upside down, which meant that the driver could not easily get out. Now, you'd need an emergency crew there as fast as possible, which was problematic with the old track, and the lack of access roads. That would be, in turn, coupled with the FIA's advice on how large the run off area should be in order to slow the cars down (see, for example, the run off areas for the opening few turns of the lap, which are fairly sizeable).
Secondly, as was also pointed out earlier, there were a number of restrictions due to environmental protection statutes in Germany - it is true that part of the reason the new track could go ahead was because they reforested the old one to compensate for the loss in habitable forests for wildlife. Finally, and predictably, Bernie/FOM had their say in influencing the redesign through their demands for pit lane access and new facilities around the track. All in all, it wouldn't have been the easiest of briefings, and Tilke would have been under a fair amount of time pressure to deliver - so, in the circumstances, I would say that he did deliver a fairly good compromise.

[noisebox]

To be honest, the original layout just never appealed to me - the high speed sections didn't have any really interesting corners, and the stadium section always felt like a slightly clumsy addition.

Agreed - the only interesting aspect I found about the orignal layout was that the stadium section gave an idea of how an F1 car would look at Monaco with a Monza set up!

The only good races at Hockenheim I can remember were when different tyre makes and strategies came into play. I think it was a race where pre refuelling a non stop strategy was sometimes possible.

[Cynon]

Hockenheim's Old Layout.
Hungaroring.

The two F1 circuits that epitomize all that is boring.

[Captain Hammer]

The old Hockenheim won't return. It's been demolished, or at least left to the mercy of nature.

[coops]

The old track did get reforested after all.

Brilliant, that would liven things up for those that arent keen on the track. Hockenheim 2011 - Now With An Off-Roading Section!

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

The old track did get reforested after all.

Brilliant, that would liven things up for those that arent keen on the track. Hockenheim 2011 - Now With An Off-Roading Section!

Wont that give Kimi and advantage, should he return?

[eagleash]

The old track did get reforested after all.

Brilliant, that would liven things up for those that arent keen on the track. Hockenheim 2011 - Now With An Off-Roading Section!

Wont that give Kimi and advantage, should he return?

Not necessarily. (But it may do Alonso).

[eagleash]

Of course any discussion of the Old Hockenheim cannot go without the posting of this old Rejects favourite;
In this instance, with acerbic commentary by Clive James instead of Dear Old Murray.
(Although for me Hockenheim is always associated with the loss of Jim Clark).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV0aQPLJ ... re=related

[noisebox]

(Although for me Hockenheim is always associated with the loss of Jim Clark).

Yep - along with Zolder and Imola, Hockenheim will always be defined as a circuit with a tragic legacy.