2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

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mario
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2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by mario »

With the first practise session of the German GP bearing down on us, I've decided to open this thread up with a few pictures of some of the latest updates.
First of all are some updates on the Sauber C29 - we've seen that they have recently upped their pace, and improved their reliability. First of all, the barge board now has a horizontal element connecting the leading edge to the chassis, and the turning vein has now gained an additional winglet where it curves inwards to meet the floor.
Image

In addition, there is a small aero piece attached to the rear suspension, just below the rear brake cooling duct - seemingly, they have copied Mclaren's idea of the front brake cooling duct being turned into a flow conditioner, and have applied it to the rear.
Image

There is also a nice detail on the front wing, where it appears there is a small channel on the inside edge of the endplate, presumably to direct air around the front wheel (judging by the shape of the channel).
Image

Mercedes have been trying to refine their diffuser (sadly, pictures are not available of this yet), and appear to have modified the previous fluidic switch used to activate their F-duct so it has an additional benefit in yaw (i.e. when turning through a corner).
Image

Onto Mclaren - with the problems caused by the heat of the exhaust during practise at Silverstone, it seems that Mclaren have increased the insulation, particularly around the lower suspension arms (note the metallic covering on the lower arm, which was absent at Silverstone). They have also introduced some shark gill vents in the rear bodywork - legal because there is a small slit running through the middle of each gill, which means that technically the gills are not connected, and therefore the gills are technically part of the same opening (both Ferrari and Mercedes have used this clause previously).
Image

By way of comparison, here is the rear of the Red Bull car from a similar angle
Image

Another picture, this time showing the rear of the Mclaren diffuser, and showing where additional thermal insulation has been added (the lighter areas on the diffuser)
Image
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by shinji »

So much technical insight :shock:

Anyway, I'm currently packing my bags for a 10 AM flight tomorrow morning to Frankfurt ;)

Hockenheim here I come!
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by Enforcer »

Good stuff Shinj.

That Mercedes F-Duct is interesting, if effects the yaw of the car as you suggest, even so minutely as to gain them 0.001 seconds, I wonder will other teams complain about it? :ugeek:
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by patrick »

Tyres might add something to this race:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85408

and it's looking like there might be some proper rain - apparently it's raining heavily there right now - at the very least it could mix up the qualifying.
great pics!
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by Myrvold »

Am I strange? I'd rather be a F1 journalist who is on every race than a driver :P
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by Salamander »

patrick wrote:Tyres might add something to this race:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85408

and it's looking like there might be some proper rain - apparently it's raining heavily there right now - at the very least it could mix up the qualifying.
great pics!


I wonder if that's the rain we had earlier in Cardiff - it certainly was chucking it down around 5ish.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by tristan1117 »

Myrvold wrote:Am I strange? I'd rather be a F1 journalist who is on every race than a driver :P


I'd rather be the commentator, actually. I get to visit the race, meet all the drivers and not have the trouble of driving the cars!
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by coops »

tristan1117 wrote:
Myrvold wrote:Am I strange? I'd rather be a F1 journalist who is on every race than a driver :P

I'd rather be the commentator, actually. I get to visit the race, meet all the drivers and not have the trouble of driving the cars!

I think my plum job would be as Charlie Whiting (except not as old). Its true Jean Todt and Bernie are important people in F1 but on race day Charlie is The Man.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by Paul Hayes »

I'm not sure first practice is telling us much given that the race is expected to be dry, but Sutil is once again showing he is one of the very best in mixed conditions. Whatever McLaren have done doesn't seem to be working, either - and Massa seems to have gone back to his old wet weather, multi-spin persona.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by coops »

Looks my Predictions are going to be a mile out! Again! :lol:

(I know I could still change them but its only a bit of fun. Luckily)
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by CarlosFerreira »

FP1 is finished. Sutil first by a country mile.

More importantly, Fauzy was 21st, beating Senna, Schumacher and Yamamoto, in that order. :shock:
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by Paul Hayes »

Hamilton's crash seemed to fire Button up a bit, didn't it? Perhaps he senses a chance to grab back a bit of the advantage he had earlier in the season. Early days to say whether it will impact on Hamilton's weekend to a dramatic degree, though, of course.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by FullMetalJack »

FP1 was very interesting, a Virgin in the top half of the timesheets with the other one 18th. Let's see what FP2 brings.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by mario »

CarlosFerreira wrote:FP1 is finished. Sutil first by a country mile.

More importantly, Fauzy was 21st, beating Senna, Schumacher and Yamamoto, in that order. :shock:

It seems that those who are doing best are those who have driven in the F3 Euroseries - as Chandhok and Davidson pointed out on their Free practise coverage, five of the top ten are former European F3 driver. It also seems that quite a few drivers are being caught out by the fact that the hairpin has been very recently resurfaced (only 2-3 weeks ago), and still has a very smooth sheen on the top.

Paul Hayes wrote:Hamilton's crash seemed to fire Button up a bit, didn't it? Perhaps he senses a chance to grab back a bit of the advantage he had earlier in the season. Early days to say whether it will impact on Hamilton's weekend to a dramatic degree, though, of course.

Well, he was fairly unhappy with the car during the first practise session - he complained that the car was suffering from oversteer in the high speed corners, and was very unstable at the rear at the start of the session. However, it seems that after Mclaren modified the rear suspension setting, the car is more stable, and he seems to be more confident in the car now.
Either way, Hamilton may not be missing out too badly - the second session appears to be quite variable, due to occasional showers of rain, and the conditions are a bit challenging. However, tomorrow could be difficult - it appears that there could be wet weather tomorrow for the third practise session (although no news about what qualifying will be like), so everybody is going to struggle a bit. What could make it even more difficult for the teams is the fact that on Wednesday and Thursday, the temperatures were around 31ºC, whereas now it is around 20ºC. If it is wet for Saturday, but dry, very sunny and hot on Sunday, we are quite likely to see a few teams struggling with their tyres. All in all, it could be a fairly difficult weekend for some teams.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by CarlosFerreira »

FP3 over. Button can't seem to find himself. On the positive side, Williams' bounce seem to continue - Barrichello actually beat both Renaults.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by kowalski »

CarlosFerreira wrote:FP3 over. Button can't seem to find himself. On the positive side, Williams' bounce seem to continue - Barrichello actually beat both Renaults.



Yup, looks like the Renaults could struggle this week....

The top 4 teams all look solid, could well be the Williams cars trying to hold off Kubica, Kobayashi & Sutil for the last couple of points...
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by Warren Hughes »

Kobayashi to get the 6th place he needs to escape rejectdom?
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by kowalski »

Warren Hughes wrote:Kobayashi to get the 6th place he needs to escape rejectdom?



Assuming the Red Bulls hit each other and Massa & Schumacher are shite then you could be right...
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by TomWazzleshaw »

kowalski wrote:
Warren Hughes wrote:Kobayashi to get the 6th place he needs to escape rejectdom?



Assuming the Red Bulls hit each other and Massa & Schumacher are shite then you could be right...


Red Bull will find a way to f*** everything up. They've already lost about 150 points this season.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by FullMetalJack »

It's gonna be another good race for Williams.

Williams to beat Force India to 6th place in the Constructors Championship. You heard it here first.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by Waris »

redbulljack14 wrote:It's gonna be another good race for Williams.

Williams to beat Force India to 6th place in the Constructors Championship. You heard it here first.


YAY! That way, Barrichello will get car number 11 next year, his lucky number, and Barrichello in a Williams with his lucky number would be teh_win.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by Paul Hayes »

Is anyone else watching the BBC coverage stunned that Mercedes allow Schumacher to do that messing around on a horse?
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by Waris »

Paul Hayes wrote:Is anyone else watching the BBC coverage stunned that Mercedes allow Schumacher to do that messing around on a horse?


...what
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by FullMetalJack »

Paul Hayes wrote:Is anyone else watching the BBC coverage stunned that Mercedes allow Schumacher to do that messing around on a horse?


I know, it would have been better if he did that whilst at Ferrari.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by FullMetalJack »

That's it for Liuzzi then.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by CarlosFerreira »

redbulljack14 wrote:That's it for Liuzzi then.


Big one, yeah - glad he's OK.

Will anyone commenting F1 on twitter this weekend please use the hashtag #gohomecolinkolles please? :evil:
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by FullMetalJack »

Senna is now ahead of Liuzzi. Nice one Bruno.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by FullMetalJack »

bathplug hell, 2 thousandths of a second between Vettel and Alonso.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by Paul Hayes »

I'm amazed at how well Ferrari did, and impressed with Williams. I think Vettel could prove hard to beat tomorrow, though - let's hope there's either rain, or it's hot enough to make the softer tyres suffer a lot.

Good to see Button outqualifying Hamilton for a change, too.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by FullMetalJack »

Senna 2 tenths off the top 20.
Both Williams cars in Q3.
Jenson Button outqualifying Lewis Hamilton.
Vettel being 0.002s quicker than Alonso.

What a qualifying session.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by mario »

redbulljack14 wrote:Senna 2 tenths off the top 20.
Both Williams cars in Q3.
Jenson Button outqualifying Lewis Hamilton.
Vettel being 0.002s quicker than Alonso.

What a qualifying session.


There was also the two laps from Jarno Trulli which went under the radar a bit, because he still wound up behind the Toro Rosso cars - but he hauled that car to within a second of Alguersuari, and blew Heikki out of the water by nearly 0.8s.
To be fair to Ferrari, they were stoked up like never before this weekend, and from the start Alonso looks like he has been intending to prove a point. Ferrari still believe that they can take both titles, and Alonso was talking up his chances from Thursday - and the upgrades that they have been bringing (no pictures, but it appears that they have brought a new diffuser, along with a modified ECU program to improve airflow through the blown diffuser, and therefore increase downforce, on a single Q3 lap).

What is curious is what happened to the Mercedes and Williams teams - their Q3 times are noticeably slower, mostly by around 0.3-0.4s, compared to their Q2 times. I would hazard a guess that both of those teams used all their super soft tyres in Q2 (which was especially tight today), and had to use a scrubbed set for Q3 - can anybody confirm that?
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by shinji »

The Liuzzi crash happened pretty much in front of me, but I was looking elsewhere, so missed it. Otherwise, I became temporarily deaf despite having ear buds in, and spent a long time queueing for the toilet, which was fun.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by dr-baker »

shinji wrote:...and spent a long time queueing for the toilet, which was fun.

You weren't queuing for the Damen instead of the Herren were you, Shinj?
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by Klon »

dr-baker wrote:
shinji wrote:...and spent a long time queueing for the toilet, which was fun.

You weren't queuing for the Damen instead of the Herren were you, Shinj?


The fact that he didn't just went for the forest says too much really. Also, don't try to challenge drink with older Schumacher fans ... it'll be horror, (even?) for an Irishman.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by Klon »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auvmljhAWok

I just wondered if BBC did something like that as well for this weekend. The British view on Germany is always amusing (or entertainingly pathetic, depending on the number of Nazi comparisons in it). :mrgreen:
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by TomWazzleshaw »

Klon wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auvmljhAWok

I just wondered if BBC did something like that as well for this weekend. The British view on Germany is always amusing (or entertainingly pathetic, depending on the number of Nazi comparisons in it). :mrgreen:


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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by DemocalypseNow »

Klon wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auvmljhAWok

I just wondered if BBC did something like that as well for this weekend. The British view on Germany is always amusing (or entertainingly pathetic, depending on the number of Nazi comparisons in it). :mrgreen:


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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by mario »

Klon wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
shinji wrote:...and spent a long time queueing for the toilet, which was fun.

You weren't queuing for the Damen instead of the Herren were you, Shinj?


The fact that he didn't just went for the forest says too much really. Also, don't try to challenge drink with older Schumacher fans ... it'll be horror, (even?) for an Irishman.

You sound as if you're speaking from experience there...

Anyway, an interesting article has popped up on Autosport which may go some way to explaining why Mclaren are not as close to Red Bull and Ferrari as in earlier races - it appears that Mclaren has decided to go for a lower downforce package compared to Red Bull and Ferrari (as suggested by the top speeds - Hamilton and Button are doing around 317kph, whereas Vettel is doing 312 kph and Alonso 308.5 kph). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85516
Now, Button is hoping that this strategy will pay dividends in the race, because having a sizeable speed advantage gives them a good chance of passing going into the hairpin. However, it is a slightly odd strategy - since both Red Bull and Ferrari are very quick here, it means that both Hamilton and Button have to pass them very early in the race (within the opening couple of laps), otherwise they will be left behind fairly quickly. Now, I don't know about you, but essentially putting your drivers in a situation where they are having to pass several quite aggressive drivers (Alonso and Webber in particular are not exactly known for making things easy, are they?) is rapidly increasing the possibility of a crash, a DNF and turning a points lead into a deficit.
Secondly, even now, the stadium section offers you the best chance of finding time, and Mclaren are losing a lot of time in the third sector - Hamilton is 7th fastest, not only behind both Ferraris and Red Bulls, but behind Rubens and even Schumacher as well, whilst Button is only 11th fastest. Both drivers are losing over 0.4s to the top four drivers in that section, and they are only making up 0.1s in the middle sector (and they aren't even the fastest in that sector either - that honour goes to Alonso). Surely, with the best F-duct system, the most sensible strategy would have been to go for a higher downforce package, take a slight straight line speed hit and close the gap in the first and last sectors - otherwise, there is no point in having a straight line advantage when your drivers are not going to be close enough to capitalise on it.

[Edit] Meanwhile, on another note, things go from bad to worse for Glock - he has taken two 5 place grid penalties; the first penalty is for an unscheduled gearbox replacement, whilst the second is because Virgin Racing have changed the gear ratio of 7th gear to a different specification to the one they told the FIA they would be using. Lucas Di Grassi, meanwhile, also faces a 5 place penalty after the team had to replace his gearbox, due to damage to 1st and 3rd gear (probably sustained during the final practise session).
In addition, Webber has been cautioned, but let off with a warning, after he drove back to the pits too slowly at the end of Q3. Although he claims that he was simply doing this to avoid getting in the way of others, it means that he was well over the allotted time that each driver is supposed to do on his way back to the pits, which is meant to reduce the speed differential (and therefore the chance of blocking) between a driver on his way back to the pits, and someone on a hot lap (based on 120% of a the Q3 times - so something in the order of a 1m31 lap time). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85514
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by CarlosFerreira »

mario wrote:Anyway, an interesting article has popped up on Autosport which may go some way to explaining why Mclaren are not as close to Red Bull and Ferrari as in earlier races - it appears that Mclaren has decided to go for a lower downforce package compared to Red Bull and Ferrari (as suggested by the top speeds - Hamilton and Button are doing around 317kph, whereas Vettel is doing 312 kph and Alonso 308.5 kph). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85516
Now, Button is hoping that this strategy will pay dividends in the race, because having a sizeable speed advantage gives them a good chance of passing going into the hairpin. However, it is a slightly odd strategy - since both Red Bull and Ferrari are very quick here, it means that both Hamilton and Button have to pass them very early in the race (within the opening couple of laps), otherwise they will be left behind fairly quickly. Now, I don't know about you, but essentially putting your drivers in a situation where they are having to pass several quite aggressive drivers (Alonso and Webber in particular are not exactly known for making things easy, are they?) is rapidly increasing the possibility of a crash, a DNF and turning a points lead into a deficit.
Secondly, even now, the stadium section offers you the best chance of finding time, and Mclaren are losing a lot of time in the third sector - Hamilton is 7th fastest, not only behind both Ferraris and Red Bulls, but behind Rubens and even Schumacher as well, whilst Button is only 11th fastest. Both drivers are losing over 0.4s to the top four drivers in that section, and they are only making up 0.1s in the middle sector (and they aren't even the fastest in that sector either - that honour goes to Alonso). Surely, with the best F-duct system, the most sensible strategy would have been to go for a higher downforce package, take a slight straight line speed hit and close the gap in the first and last sectors - otherwise, there is no point in having a straight line advantage when your drivers are not going to be close enough to capitalise on it.


It's a bit of a strange decision, yeah. I imagine McLaren are on the back foot - the blown diffuser doesn't seem to be delivering yet (I think Ferrari needed some 3 races to make it work, and everyone applauded Williams to getting it going off the box). They did damage limitation in Silvestone, and here in Hockenheim Hamilton dropped it early on, has hardly made enough miles to help the setup, and Button has looked like he was struggling on the wet/green track.

Perhaps McLaren is more interested in keeping the competition behind at bay, and maybe wait to see if some of the people ahead screw up.
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Re: 2010 German Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by Debaser »

What are the odds on a Webber/Massa crash on the 1st lap??? Neither driver can overtake.
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