Your Reject of the Race - Hungary!

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 01 Aug 2010, 13:45

This thread is about to get interesting.

IdeFan · Post by **IdeFan** » 01 Aug 2010, 13:49

Unquestionably Jenson Button - Slow in qualifying, a poor start, slow in the race, and failed to make any sort of impact on the cars in front of him. Only some slick pitwork by his team and an unusually high rate of attrition vaulted him into the lower points. McLaren in general were poor this weekend, but Hamilton was able to qualify 5th and was running 4th when his car let go.

Schumacher's driving was despicable in my opinion, but it was only a single moment in the face of 3 days of mediocrity from Button.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 01 Aug 2010, 13:51

Michael Schumacher.

Someone needs to slap some sense into the stupid motherf***er, it's about time the FIA kicked him out of the championship for the reckless driving he's demonstrated throughout this season.

Dishonourable mentions to the Renault pit crew and Button.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 01 Aug 2010, 13:55

You know, I could kind of accept Schumacher's dangerous driving when it mattered; when it was for the lead, for the Championship. When it's for 10th place, and 1 point, that's just ridiculous. He seems to have come back just to enjoy himself, to promote Mercedes in their first year, and just to experience F1 again, so why he'd resort to squeezing someone so feckin' dangerously is beyond me. He really needs to cop himself on. That was the pitwall - there're so many mechanics and team members on the other side of that wall. Vile driving, hope he gets a sufficient punishment,

Also, Vettel is in such a hilarious sulk on the podium, it's worth a mention.

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:00

Schumacher for stupidly dangerous driving. Ok, we all know he's a hard driver, but he's just letting his reputation down.

Jenson Button for just tooling around, and not doing much really. Does he want to win the championship ?

Diificult to know who to blame for the pit lane fiasco. Just a formation cock-up really.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:00

I'm going to name a few rejects.

01. Michael Schumacher.
Why the hell do you have to almost push Rubens onto the wall? You almost got him into an accident! For ONE GODDAMN POINT. Shame on you. Penalty is well-deserved.

02. The Mercedes pit-crew.
You managed to not only mess up Nico Rosberg's chances of a possible fifth position by not putting that wheel up properly, but the tyre managed to hurt a Williams pit crew member. Penalty for this is well deserved.

03. The Renault pit-crew.
You could have waited one, or at least two seconds. But you didn't. And for that, you managed to not only ruin YOUR driver's chances to score a possible fifth position to catch Mercedes, but this also destroyed Sutil's race. Penalty should have been going for the TEAM and not Kubica. His race was over already because of the damage.

04. Jaime Alguersuari's Ferrari engine.
Copying off an early retirement a la Sauber.

05. Sebastian Vettel.
You were way behind Webber already at the start of the SC in-lap. And you kept it all the way, till you got a 3-second delay behind Webber...

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:02

Has Vettel's puppy just died??? He looks like it has. He deserves an honourable mention here, though Schumi's incredibly dangerous wins this contest by a mile.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:04

Vettel for being the most miserable bastard I've ever seen on the podium.
or
Schumacher for nearly wrecking the person he owes about 3 of his championships to.

Post by **tommykl** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:05

Schumacher. What was he thinking?

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:06

kostas22 wrote:Michael Schumacher.

Someone needs to slap some sense into the stupid motherf***er, it's about time the FIA kicked him out of the championship for the reckless driving he's demonstrated throughout this season.

Dishonourable mentions to the Renault pit crew and Button.

The FIA have given themselves a problem though. Hamilton and Vettel effectively got away with dangerous driving earlier in the season (battling in the pits, and Hamilton weaving down the main straight at Malayasia). Schumacher's move, whilst more spectacular, is actually no more illegal. Whether they penalise him or not, they'll probably handle it in a fashion that'll see it added to the "WTF are the stewarts/FIA playing at this season?" file.

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:06

We need a 'cry baby of the day award'. Vettell will win it every time he does not win.

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:14

Michael "Dick Dastardly" Schumacher

and Renault Pit crew

Valrys · Post by **Valrys** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:15

Schumacher - for obvious reasons

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:15

And who's Muttley then? Willy Weber?

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:17

Mercedes in general?

Schumacher for trying to evoke his 1994 season, and the Rosberg pitstop mechanics for causing some near death experiences in the pit lane?

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:19

Easily Michael - not just for the move, but then try to suggest that it was Rubens' fault and that he just likes to complain about things. A pity too, because he was beginning to seem a bit more reasonable in his old age.

tc3j3r · Post by **tc3j3r** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:27

The Renault lollipop man.

Libertango · Post by **Libertango** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:29

Mercedes for sure!
Not only was it stupid but very dangerous too and caused a confusion in the pits that probably led to the Renault mistake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlbvQvTCMn0&translated=1

Post by **mario** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:36

Shizuka wrote:I'm going to name a few rejects.

01. Michael Schumacher.
Why the hell do you have to almost push Rubens onto the wall? You almost got him into an accident! For ONE GODDAMN POINT. Shame on you. Penalty is well-deserved.

02. The Mercedes pit-crew.
You managed to not only mess up Nico Rosberg's chances of a possible fifth position by not putting that wheel up properly, but the tyre managed to hurt a Williams pit crew member. Penalty for this is well deserved.

03. The Renault pit-crew.
You could have waited one, or at least two seconds. But you didn't. And for that, you managed to not only ruin YOUR driver's chances to score a possible fifth position to catch Mercedes, but this also destroyed Sutil's race. Penalty should have been going for the TEAM and not Kubica. His race was over already because of the damage.

04. Jaime Alguersuari's Ferrari engine.
Copying off an early retirement a la Sauber.

05. Sebastian Vettel.
You were way behind Webber already at the start of the SC in-lap. And you kept it all the way, till you got a 3-second delay behind Webber...

All very good points, and I have to agree with all of them. Schumacher's move was dangerous - it is one thing to move across so aggressively when somebody is behind and trying to pass, and another to actually wait until they are alongside you and push across so aggressively. That was the move of a man who wanted to put his opponent into the wall, I feel (which, since the next man was so far down the road, would have guaranteed Schumacher 10th place and that last point).
The Mercedes pit crew seem to have rushed that stop quite badly - and were lucky that they didn't injure someone quite badly (that wheel nearly hit the Sauber pit crew, including one man who was running across the box with one of the wheels), especially when it was bouncing around behind the Sauber and Williams pit crews. A terrible cock up, and could have had much more severe consequences, as could the Renault pit stop...
Well, Renault cocked that stop up about as much as you could. It is a shame for Kubica, because he was doing fairly well, and he was following the instructions of his team, and even more so for Sutil, who was caught completely by surprise. Yes, given the rush into the pits after a safety car is deployed, I suppose that such an accident was overdue, but it is supposed to be the case that the team does not let the car go if another car is within 55m of the pit box. Again, given how close everybody was to those cars, that was another incident which could have had resulted in severe ramifications.

The next two are a bit less clear cut in some ways - Jaime's engine failure was certainly unfortunate, but he wasn't exactly doing that much beforehand, and I suspect that he may have been using an old engine anyway so he would be able to have two fresh engines for Spa and Monza (the traditional back to back high speed tracks).
As for Vettel behind the safety car, that was quite strange - he was clearly dawdling about down the main straight, which is why he got the penalty (he was well over 100m, or over 20 car lengths, at some points), and he made himself look like a whining brat by complaining so much over the radio and when he drove through the pits. What is interesting, however, is what happened at the re-start, when Webber stuck right to the back of the Safety Car, whilst Vettel dropped back so far - I suspect that Red Bull might have deliberately got Vettel to back Alonso up so Webber would have had a better chance of passing Alonso when he pitted. He was putting a lot of pressure on Alonso afterwards, but was driving very erratically - almost throwing the car off the track several times - which shows that he was very frustrated (and why does Vettel always go for the fastest lap - not only did he simply back off and let Alonso get to the line unhindered, he was also unnecessarily stressing the car for a pointless exercise in futility...)

Finally, we can add Mclaren to the list - horrible weekend for Button, as he firstly cost himself a top 10 grid slot, thanks to that little Q2 error, was hung out to dry in Turn 1 and forced back down the field, and was badly hit by the fact that everybody was bottled up behind Rubens after the safety car (when he stayed out whilst everybody else stopped). From that point on, he was doomed to finish right down the order, because there was on way that he would be able to pass anybody when the cars were so close together in terms of performance.
Meanwhile, Hamilton had, to his credit, managed to wring every last bit of performance out of his car to get into 4th place (because Mclaren did not seem to have a car which should be there, judging by the practise data), but in his case, it seems to have been a gearbox failure which caused his DNF - if so, that could well mean another gearbox and a grid penalty come Spa...

watka · Post by **watka** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:38

A few names stick out for me:

McLaren - On Hamilton's side, the transmission failure has cost him big time in the championship. Until that happened, Hamilton would have been fine picking up a 5th or 6th because the car should be stronger at Spa and Monza. I now think that he absolutely must win one of the next two races in order to give himself a buffer for the fly away races where Red Bull should have an advantage. Jenson Button struggled through qualifying and the race and just could not cope with the car. Unlike Hamilton, he just cannot drive around the car's deficiencies, and unlike last season, I'm not sure he gives it 100% when the car isn't there.

Sebastian Vettel - I'm not sure if was him who made the mistake or whether the team told him to fall back, but the restart was a big cock up and cost him an easy win. I'm not sure he's telling the truth by saying he fell asleep at the restart, because don't think he's that stupid, and I think he was just protecting the team from any criticism (which I think is actually quite wise from him). Either way, I think Vettel is the stronger of the 2 Red Bull drivers, and now they have the awkward situation again of Webber being ahead of Vettel on points.

Renault pit crew - That was down right dangerous and it was lucky that none of the Force India mechanics got injured. The release smacks of desperation by the Renault to get their car out in a good track position, and they were willing to compromise safety in order to achieve that.

But reject of the race surely has to be:
Mercedes - Renault weren't the only team to rush a pit stop and compromise safety. Rosberg's wheel running loose down the pit lane could have gone absolutely anywhere, and it was fortunate that everyone escaped serious injury. It could have hit another car or any number of people. Even more dangerous though was Michael Schumacher's move on Barrichello. I can't really add anything to what's been said already; it was an incredibly dangerous move for only 10th place in the race and I suspect that petty grievances with Barrichello also played a part in Schumacher's decision making.

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:44

Renault pitcrew

Do the regulars go on holiday when the team goes to Hungary?- that's the third time in five years they have made a major mistake in a pitstop at Mogyorod. (2006, 2009, 2010)

amunt · Post by **amunt** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:58

Vettel - after being 0.4 seconds clear of anyone in qualifying (and 1.2 seconds of any non-Red Bull), eventually found a way to throw away an easy win

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 01 Aug 2010, 15:04

The Mercedes Team in General

For being off pace all race, for cocking up Rosbergs pitstop and causing a dangerous situation AND for schumachers dangerous stunt

jackanderton · Post by **jackanderton** » 01 Aug 2010, 15:10

1. Michael Schumacher

2. Renault pit crew

Both examples of recklessness that could've resulted in much worse than they did.

Today was an example that this is a dangerous sport and we forget it at our peril.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 01 Aug 2010, 15:14

I'm happy to see you agree with me!

mario wrote:All very good points, and I have to agree with all of them. Schumacher's move was dangerous - it is one thing to move across so aggressively when somebody is behind and trying to pass, and another to actually wait until they are alongside you and push across so aggressively. That was the move of a man who wanted to put his opponent into the wall, I feel (which, since the next man was so far down the road, would have guaranteed Schumacher 10th place and that last point).

It was less than a meter for Rubens. Oh, this was at at least 280 km/h. Now if he hit the wall, I bet the race would have been RED flagged because of this.
And why with poor Rubens, who managed to help him win the 2003 championship? Remember, he won in Suzuka to hold off Raikkonen!

mario wrote:The Mercedes pit crew seem to have rushed that stop quite badly - and were lucky that they didn't injure someone quite badly (that wheel nearly hit the Sauber pit crew, including one man who was running across the box with one of the wheels), especially when it was bouncing around behind the Sauber and Williams pit crews. A terrible cock up, and could have had much more severe consequences, as could the Renault pit stop...

As I heard from the Hungarian commentary - by the way, they were barely hearable throughout the race, so the commentary gets an EXTRA ROTR award at me. I'm the only Hungarian on the forum I guess who's active around... - the wheel hit a Williams pit crew member. And yes, it almost hit a Sauber member too, but I've got a question. How, the, bathplug managed the tyre to fly up SEVERAL meters? How is that possible? And one more question. How DID that tyre go that fast? According to the rules of physics, it is very well possible to happen, if the pit straight is on a hill, the entrance being the top point. They really did rush the stop, but come on, this is just ridiculous.

mario wrote:Well, Renault cocked that stop up about as much as you could. It is a shame for Kubica, because he was doing fairly well, and he was following the instructions of his team, and even more so for Sutil, who was caught completely by surprise. Yes, given the rush into the pits after a safety car is deployed, I suppose that such an accident was overdue, but it is supposed to be the case that the team does not let the car go if another car is within 55m of the pit box. Again, given how close everybody was to those cars, that was another incident which could have had resulted in severe ramifications.

Shame for Kubica, absolutely. With his lead, he could have finished fifth with Petrov being sixth, resulting in 18 points. They DO have the chance to catch Mercedes. And if Schumacher gets a grid penalty, with the Renaults being good in Spa-Francorchamps, this might happen. Sutil can't be blamed for the accident. He was just entering! He couldn't go over! If he did, he could have hit his or Renault's members on the pit wall! And one more thing: Kubica finished his tyre change. Sutil did NOT. He was behind. There is a difference between rush and thinking. And I say... Kubica's penalty is undeserved, even though he could see Adrian coming from behind!

mario wrote:The next two are a bit less clear cut in some ways - Jaime's engine failure was certainly unfortunate, but he wasn't exactly doing that much beforehand, and I suspect that he may have been using an old engine anyway so he would be able to have two fresh engines for Spa and Monza (the traditional back to back high speed tracks).

That's right, but still... have you seen engine retirements so early other than from Sauber and now Toro Rosso?

mario wrote:As for Vettel behind the safety car, that was quite strange - he was clearly dawdling about down the main straight, which is why he got the penalty (he was well over 100m, or over 20 car lengths, at some points), and he made himself look like a whining brat by complaining so much over the radio and when he drove through the pits. What is interesting, however, is what happened at the re-start, when Webber stuck right to the back of the Safety Car, whilst Vettel dropped back so far - I suspect that Red Bull might have deliberately got Vettel to back Alonso up so Webber would have had a better chance of passing Alonso when he pitted. He was putting a lot of pressure on Alonso afterwards, but was driving very erratically - almost throwing the car off the track several times - which shows that he was very frustrated (and why does Vettel always go for the fastest lap - not only did he simply back off and let Alonso get to the line unhindered, he was also unnecessarily stressing the car for a pointless exercise in futility...)

It was clear for me. He could NOT "slept" the restart if he already was WAY behind Mark a lap before the restart. There has to be something for it. It might be just a "I'm going to keep Fernando a bit behind to give you the chance, Mark" thought from Seb, which in terms of team-work is good, but the way he did it...
Vettel yet again, threw away a win. We can also talk about the way he entered the pit! What if his car got damage there? That was a big bump, mind you.
And I fully agree with you, he lost his cool then. Fernando seemed to be a perfect setup for the final section, while Sebastian always lost some speed in there. And whatever you do in the second sector, if you can't keep in touch with the car in front in the third one, and especially in the final corner, you're screwed!

mario wrote:Finally, we can add Mclaren to the list - horrible weekend for Button, as he firstly cost himself a top 10 grid slot, thanks to that little Q2 error, was hung out to dry in Turn 1 and forced back down the field, and was badly hit by the fact that everybody was bottled up behind Rubens after the safety car (when he stayed out whilst everybody else stopped). From that point on, he was doomed to finish right down the order, because there was on way that he would be able to pass anybody when the cars were so close together in terms of performance.
Meanwhile, Hamilton had, to his credit, managed to wring every last bit of performance out of his car to get into 4th place (because Mclaren did not seem to have a car which should be there, judging by the practise data), but in his case, it seems to have been a gearbox failure which caused his DNF - if so, that could well mean another gearbox and a grid penalty come Spa...

Horrible weekend indeed. Somehow he didn't find himself on the Hungaroring. He still got closer to the lead though. But he NEEDS to raise the game against his team-mate and the others from now on. Hamilton said in an interview during the race that the car just lost its power coming out of turn one. That could be either the hydraulics, or, as you pointed out, the gearbox. Lewis will have to fight in Spa if he does get a grid penalty. Remember, last year, he was out after the long straight after the Eau Rouge along with Button (coincidence? might happen again?) and... Alguersuari and... I guess, Grosjean?

So yeah.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 01 Aug 2010, 16:10

I agree with DonTirri - Mercedes take the cake for me. They royally cocked up Rosberg's stop, and it essentially left an empty net. How on Earth did that wheel fall off? Had Kubica not been taken out in the pit-stops as well, it would've been absolutely disastrous for Mercedes, instead of 'merely' very worrying. Not only is Kubica still on form, but Petrov is gaining momentum, Renault's car is now much better than Mercedes' and the only thing that's keeping them alive at the moment is Rosberg. Michael Schumacher's move on Barrichello, though was horrible - not only was the move overly aggressive, but his insistence that it was Rubens' fault is just ridiculous. If you wanted him to go to the left, why'd you leave that massive Williams-and-more-sized gap to your inside? Not only that, but he's also cost his team possible points in Spa, which could really harm them in their fight with Renault.

Renault's stop was pretty rejectful as well, it was dangerous enough as it was to release Kubica into the path of another car in Sutil's position. Apparently, the lollipop man didn't realise that the car behind Rosberg was Sutil, but he still should've waited until Sutil was clear. Thankfully, no-one was hurt, but Renault could wind up ruing the points they just cost themselves.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 01 Aug 2010, 16:50

Anything with a Mercedes engine in it. (Schumacher was awful and an idiot, Rosberg lost a wheel, Liuzzi was anonymous, Sutil got taken out, Hamilton had a gearbox failure, and Button was lackluster.)

Renault's pit crew. Whoops.

Sebastian Vettel. Don't be such a petulant baby. You broke the rules AND the spirit of the rules.

Dan B · Post by **Dan B** » 01 Aug 2010, 16:57

The most obvious would be Mercedes and Schumacher. What the heck was the tireman thinking when he put the wheel incorrectly on Rosberg's car? In any case, it came off and ruined what would have been a great weekend for him. And as for Schumacher, that move was dumb, bar none.

Renault for not paying attention to the other cars. It's a miracle no one got hurt by that incident although it did ruin Kubica's and Sutil's race. As for the penalty being deserved or not, I don't think it was necessary, considering he retired later on, however, the team should get smacked.

Vettel for screwing up the restart and then acting like a little brat when he failed to maintain what is a very black and white rule. That, and acting like someone whose ice cream cone dropped on the ground when on the podium, which happens every time he doesn't finish first.

Dishonorable mention goes to Barrichello concerning his incident with Schumacher. While Schumacher was 85% in the wrong, I'd like to say that there is a brake pedal on the car and he should have used it. I don't know if it was his bad years at Ferrari that caused him to do that move (and for Schumacher to do similarly), but common sense flew out the window then. To say Schumacher was 100% culpable is not entirely fair, but then again, Schumacher never played fair to begin with.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 01 Aug 2010, 17:18

Dan B wrote:Dishonorable mention goes to Barrichello concerning his incident with Schumacher. While Schumacher was 85% in the wrong, I'd like to say that there is a brake pedal on the car and he should have used it. I don't know if it was his bad years at Ferrari that caused him to do that move (and for Schumacher to do similarly), but common sense flew out the window then. To say Schumacher was 100% culpable is not entirely fair, but then again, Schumacher never played fair to begin with.

This is a good point, Rubens could quite easily have backed off but there was obviously an element of him really wanting to beat Michael. While Schumacher was obviously being dangerous it does go both ways and it just looks ridiculous as it was only 1 point after all.
The other thing that stuck in my mind afterwards was how long are either of them going to keep wanting to race at this stage in their lives. That could have ended in a very nasty crash - Rubens said it was the most dangerous moment of his career, despite things like Imola '94. They both have two kids as well, and that might hit home at some point.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 01 Aug 2010, 17:55

10 place grid penalty for Michael for "illegitimately impeding car #9 during an overtaking manouvre".

I'm not sure how I feel about the move itself, I mean we all want great wheel to wheel racing, but we can't have it AND penalties anytime anyone does something a bit risque. In the early 90s and 80s, it would've been none of the stewart's business. Then again, in the 80s and early 90s, drivers got injured and ocassionally killed a bit more, which is not what we want.

However, I'm not pleased with the FIA's consistency over this. There have been plenty of occassions when a driver has pushed another towards the edge of the track and not been penalised, or even investigated, and he only made one defensive move (albeit one with an above average chance of causing a crash), so, unless there's a distinction in the rules between an edge of track where there's a gravel trap and an edge of track where there's a wall (someone want to help me on that?), I don't see how his 'impedence' of Barrichello was more illegitimate than what normally goes on.

If they're nixxing him for dangerous driving, firstly they should say 'dangerous driving', and secondly I have to go back to Hamilton and Vettel recieving a reprimand for their pitlane shennanigans in China. And don't tell me what Hamilton and Vettel did was less dangerous - if Schumacher had pushed Rubens into the wall, whilst it would've been a pretty weak thing to do, chances are with the safety of modern F1 cars, that both he and Rubens would've been relatively uninjured. If Hamilton and Vettel had pushed each other into a pit crew, chances are the mechanics hit would've had broken bones at the very least.

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 01 Aug 2010, 17:58

My pick for ROTR is the McLaren team. They have lost touch with Red Bull and saw Ferrari jump ahead of them and today, they lost the lead in WDC and WCC. Things are not working well in Woking!

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 01 Aug 2010, 18:31

Obviously this was a race with plenty of rejectfull performances

On McLaren and Button: Is Jenson Button the new Kimi Raikkonnen? His motivation has certainly dropped since he won a world title. He has been underperforming since the start, and after he lucked into a couple of wins, what little ambition he still had seems to have evaporated. His team isn't helping either. They have clearly suffered a delay in their development program. The summer break couldn't come at a better time for McLaren. They need to pull themselves together.

On Kubica's pitstop: Do the renalut pitcrev have a jinx on the Hunaroring? This is the third time they do something stupid here. In 2006 and 2009 they did not attach a wheel properly to Alonso's car (like it happened to Rosberg today) and now they do this unsafe release. From bad to worse!

On Vettel: isn't it ironic, after the previous scandal at Red Bull, that Vettel got penalized after acting just like a nr. 2 driver, protecting his teammate? If not for the abovementioned scandal, we would have suspected Red Bull of team orders now.

On Schumacher: Probably the most "spectacular" reject of the day. I don't think the penalty was unjustified in this case. The previous similar incidents seem to me tho have been less dangerous and less clear cut than this one. Luckily for him, the fact that Mercedes probably has the best engine might help him somewhat to make up places next race, on a high speed circuit like Spa. On the other hand, Schumacher seems to have lost his cool. At the moment, he is the anti-Button. One underperforms because he drives like he wants to retire, the other acts like an over-agressive rookie, and makes rookie mistakes.

jackanderton · Post by **jackanderton** » 01 Aug 2010, 18:40

Jenson is still well, well in the title hunt though. I can't work out my head, no matter what variables how he'll actually beat Webber, Vettel or Hamilton, but he's still there, and he's been performing competently next to Lewis in the races.

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 01 Aug 2010, 18:57

jackanderton wrote:Jenson is still well, well in the title hunt though. I can't work out my head, no matter what variables how he'll actually beat Webber, Vettel or Hamilton, but he's still there, and he's been performing competently next to Lewis in the races.

I agree that I was a bit too pessimistic in my assesment of him. After all, he was allso unlucky: this is the second race in a row that he gets boxed in at the start and looses many places. But still I can't help but ask myself if he isn't a bit too "relaxed" for a serious title contender.

beetleman64 · Post by **beetleman64** » 01 Aug 2010, 20:00

The Renault pit crew - for releasing Kubica into the path of Sutil.

Michael Schumacher - Dangerous move proved that he will sink to any depth.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 01 Aug 2010, 20:27

The actual ROTR has to be the Renault pit crew. Their mistake caused a ridiculous collision in the pit lane between Kubica and Sutil. And it's their 3rd expendable pit lane mishap in 5 Hungarian GPs.
The near-misses:
-Mercedes pit crew: they decided to follow the loose car bits and pieces at the Hungarian GP trend by badly bolting Rosberg's right rear wheel (due to the hurry, I suppose), just like Williams did with Nigel Mansell in 1991 at Portugal. The wheel then bounced perilously close to the Sauber pit crew. It was a very lucky escpae for them indeed.
-Michael Schumacher: apart from his mediocre weekend, he went too far by pushing Barrichello against the pit wall when he tried to overtake him. Not only did he fail to stop the Brazilian, who blasted past him, but he put him at an unacceptable risk. He deservedly gained a 10 place grid penalty for the next race, which was completely unnecesary and won't do him any favours if he continues to qualify like this.

ZsoltForever · Post by **ZsoltForever** » 01 Aug 2010, 20:42

Reject 1B is Michael Schumacher for a move that could have caused Rubens Barrichello, and possibly himself, serious injury.

Reject 1A is the Mercedes team for a botched pit stop that could have caused multiple injuries and possible death in the pit lane.

The rear point of view shot they showed of that tire hurtling through the pits -- the one where the tire man for Sauber (?) jumped out of the way at the last moment before it careened into the Williams pit -- was harrowing. That tire could have done some serious damage. Just a couple of ill bounces on a few crew members' heads and there'd have been had a tragedy on our hands.

Reject honorable mention goes to Speed pit reporter Will Buxton. On the stateside broadcast, he said that Nigel Hope caught the tire, which quite honestly, would have been the most bad-ass thing I've ever heard of, but every report I read post-race said he merely was in the wrong place at the wrong time and got hit by it.

Perhaps he meant that Hope got caught by the tire, but that's not what he said. Speed's broadcast team seem as bemused as I was, saying Hope should look into becoming a NFL tight end and Buxton never corrected it.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 01 Aug 2010, 21:11

Enforcer wrote:10 place grid penalty for Michael for "illegitimately impeding car #9 during an overtaking manouvre".

I'm not sure how I feel about the move itself, I mean we all want great wheel to wheel racing, but we can't have it AND penalties anytime anyone does something a bit risque. In the early 90s and 80s, it would've been none of the stewart's business. Then again, in the 80s and early 90s, drivers got injured and ocassionally killed a bit more, which is not what we want.

However, I'm not pleased with the FIA's consistency over this. There have been plenty of occassions when a driver has pushed another towards the edge of the track and not been penalised, or even investigated, and he only made one defensive move (albeit one with an above average chance of causing a crash), so, unless there's a distinction in the rules between an edge of track where there's a gravel trap and an edge of track where there's a wall (someone want to help me on that?), I don't see how his 'impedence' of Barrichello was more illegitimate than what normally goes on.

If they're nixxing him for dangerous driving, firstly they should say 'dangerous driving', and secondly I have to go back to Hamilton and Vettel recieving a reprimand for their pitlane shennanigans in China. And don't tell me what Hamilton and Vettel did was less dangerous - if Schumacher had pushed Rubens into the wall, whilst it would've been a pretty weak thing to do, chances are with the safety of modern F1 cars, that both he and Rubens would've been relatively uninjured. If Hamilton and Vettel had pushed each other into a pit crew, chances are the mechanics hit would've had broken bones at the very least.

Michael Schumacher. No boubt.

In the... oh well, at least in the 90's they often punished people with suspended penalties, and race bans for less than this.

The problem is, the track is between the white lines, as you can see, Schumacher is pushing Barrichello outside the track, the track doesn't go until the wall, even though there are tarmac there. Not on this track. And, by putting him in a situation like that, you can, possibly have a fatality. Remember, even though with much safety, we can have a tyre coming loose, some parts of the suspension can penetrate the driver, you can flip and hit the wall with the head. By not penalizing a move like this, you are saying that it is legal, go for it. And 98% of racers will push the limit of what is allowed, and then, we will, one time end up with a crash, it can end well, it can end with a funeral. However, I really do hope no one wants to see that, even though we all want to see hard racing.

Post by **mario** » 01 Aug 2010, 21:59

Pedestrian wrote:
jackanderton wrote:Jenson is still well, well in the title hunt though. I can't work out my head, no matter what variables how he'll actually beat Webber, Vettel or Hamilton, but he's still there, and he's been performing competently next to Lewis in the races.

I agree that I was a bit too pessimistic in my assesment of him. After all, he was allso unlucky: this is the second race in a row that he gets boxed in at the start and looses many places. But still I can't help but ask myself if he isn't a bit too "relaxed" for a serious title contender.

I wouldn't say that Button has lost his motivation - if anything, he seems more motivated this year, because he is determined to prove he is better then Hamilton by holding onto the title again, even if his chances seem to have become a little slimmer.

However, what is holding not just Button back, but Mclaren as a whole, is the fact that the team are struggling with the exhaust blown diffuser. In terms of performance, once nailed, it looks like it could offer a fair few tenths of a second a lap, but because the MP4/25 derives so much of its downforce from the floor (as evidenced by the existing size of the diffuser), it is said to be very sensitive to changes in rake angle (i.e. fluctuations in the angle that the floor makes with the ground), especially when compared to the F10 and the RB6.
As a consequence, they have to run with very hard suspension, and that in turn compromises the balance, as running very hard suspension makes the car more skittish, and it can reduce the mechanical grip of the car in slower corners (which traditionally had been a Mclaren strongpoint).

Now, the blown diffuser will give the car more downforce, thanks to the increased airflow through the diffuser, if the engine is on full throttle. However, unlike, say, Ferrari, which merely blows the exhaust gas across the top of the diffuser, Mclaren have gone for the more complicated option of routing it directly into the diffuser - which might give more downforce, but at the price of reduced stability on partial throttle (when the airflow out of the exhaust is fluctuating).
Now, the problem is, it is rumoured that the mechanics at Mclaren are struggling to set the car up, particularly for Button - listening to the feedback Button is giving in the practise sessions, it is clear that the car is not stable at the rear of the car (even Hamilton sometimes struggles, and his driving style is such that he can cope more easily with an unstable rear end). With the compromised suspension, he just cannot get the car to his liking, and it shows.
On top of that, he still has the old problem of being unable to get the tyres fully up to temperature over a single lap - Ron Dennis admitted that the car was not really designed with qualifying in mind (they looked much more at race conditions), and so Mclaren already struggle to get the most out of the softer tyres used in qualifying. Couple that to Button's driving style, which tends to scrub the tyres less, and therefore generate less heat, and you have a situation in which Button will struggle in qualifying. His problem is, because passing is now so hard, once you find youself down the order, you aren't likely to make up many places in the race, even if you are much more competitive on full tanks.

Enforcer wrote:10 place grid penalty for Michael for "illegitimately impeding car #9 during an overtaking manouvre".

I'm not sure how I feel about the move itself, I mean we all want great wheel to wheel racing, but we can't have it AND penalties anytime anyone does something a bit risque. In the early 90s and 80s, it would've been none of the stewart's business. Then again, in the 80s and early 90s, drivers got injured and ocassionally killed a bit more, which is not what we want.

However, I'm not pleased with the FIA's consistency over this. There have been plenty of occassions when a driver has pushed another towards the edge of the track and not been penalised, or even investigated, and he only made one defensive move (albeit one with an above average chance of causing a crash), so, unless there's a distinction in the rules between an edge of track where there's a gravel trap and an edge of track where there's a wall (someone want to help me on that?), I don't see how his 'impedence' of Barrichello was more illegitimate than what normally goes on.

If they're nixxing him for dangerous driving, firstly they should say 'dangerous driving', and secondly I have to go back to Hamilton and Vettel recieving a reprimand for their pitlane shennanigans in China. And don't tell me what Hamilton and Vettel did was less dangerous - if Schumacher had pushed Rubens into the wall, whilst it would've been a pretty weak thing to do, chances are with the safety of modern F1 cars, that both he and Rubens would've been relatively uninjured. If Hamilton and Vettel had pushed each other into a pit crew, chances are the mechanics hit would've had broken bones at the very least.

I guess that part of the reason would be that the risk of injury would be far greater if a driver was pushed into a wall compared to a gravel trap - gravel traps, after all, are meant to slow the cars down over an extended distance, but the abruptness of hitting a wall at about 300kph would present you with a higher probability of injury.
As for the safety aspect, yes, modern F1 cars are very strong and well built, but all of the crash structures and driver survival cell have a finite strength. Even with modern cars, injuries can still happen. For example, Glock's accident in 2009 - that was actually much more serious then it looked, because Toyota admitted later that a piece of metal, probably from the suspension, had actually punched through the chassis, and it was that piece of metal which had cut Glock's leg. In that case, he was fortunate that he got away with lacerations but in a high speed accident, like what we could have had, there is the risk that it could ahve been worse. Furthermore, there would be the safety of those outside of the cockpit - there are marshalls posts near the end of the pit lane. There was a major risk of debirs flying about into the pit lane area and the marshalls posts.

Coupled to that, I suspect that there were a few other reasons - firstly, because Schumacher has been involved in a few questionable moves this season (for example, in Canada, when battling with the Force India's), so the stewards might want to send a message to Schumacher that the stewards have had enough, and secondly, to act as a deterrant to the rest of the field (as he is not the only one who has engaged in a few overly aggressive moves).

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 01 Aug 2010, 22:04

They should have applied that deterrent to Vettel, especially considering that a possible crash would have likely triggered a pile-up.