Proposed Indian GP Layout

[JohnMLTX]

I'm actually surprised to say this, but it looks really, really cool.
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/8/11150.html

A banked double apex corner with loads of elevation changes? This looks to be no cookie cutter Tilkedrome, it actually seems to have potential, in my opinion. What do you guys think?

[TomWazzleshaw]

I was about to call the section between turns 5 and 15 mickey mouse but the elevation changes make it look pretty damn epic (Espicially the 10/11/12 complex at the top of the hill). It almost reminds me of the middle sector at Spa.

[LionZoo]

I don't like that the braking zone for the back straight, the longest straight on the track, is uphill. There are already complaints that cars these days brake too well and so it's hard to make up distance, and therefore attempt a pass, under braking. An uphill braking zone is just going to make that worse. I would think a downhill braking area would be what they would want...

[Captain Hammer]

I was about to call the section between turns 5 and 15 mickey mouse but the elevation changes make it look pretty damn epic (Espicially the 10/11/12 complex at the top of the hill). It almost reminds me of the middle sector at Spa.

Bear in mind that the image says 5X SUPER-ELEVATED. It's very exaggerated for the purpose of showing the elevation changes. According to a post on F1 Fanatic that quotes the organisers, the elevation changes between turns one and three will be about fourteen metres.

[TomWazzleshaw]

I was about to call the section between turns 5 and 15 mickey mouse but the elevation changes make it look pretty damn epic (Espicially the 10/11/12 complex at the top of the hill). It almost reminds me of the middle sector at Spa.

Bear in mind that the image says 5X SUPER-ELEVATED. It's very exaggerated for the purpose of showing the elevation changes. According to a post on F1 Fanatic that quotes the organisers, the elevation changes between turns one and three will be about fourteen metres.

So THAT's what super-elevated meant... thanks for the clarification.

[eagleash]

I saw this blogged about a week ago & thought it gave definition to Brundle's "how much track can you get in a field" remark.
Looks slightly better in this article but it's still not really worthy of Grand Prix racing. But then it's not, it's F1.

[Captain Hammer]

Looks slightly better in this article but it's still not really worthy of Grand Prix racing.

How can you pass judgement before you seen a lap driven in anger?

[eagleash]

Looks slightly better in this article but it's still not really worthy of Grand Prix racing.

How can you pass judgement before you seen a lap driven in anger?

I said looks slightly better. It may provide good racing but I have my doubts. My point again is that, to me, it looks like a go kart track.

[DemocalypseNow]

Looks slightly better in this article but it's still not really worthy of Grand Prix racing.

How can you pass judgement before you seen a lap driven in anger?

I said looks slightly better. It may provide good racing but I have my doubts. My point again is that, to me, it looks like a go kart track.

Could be worse - it could be Adria...

[Phoenix]

Looks slightly better in this article but it's still not really worthy of Grand Prix racing.

How can you pass judgement before you seen a lap driven in anger?

I concur.

[ADx_Wales]

How can we pass judgement? Because we're obsessed with a sport with a glut of crap tracks which have made us highly judgemental......especially of tracks that look a bit like Kyalami.

[Phoenix]

How can we pass judgement? Because we're obsessed with a sport with a glut of crap tracks which have made us highly judgemental......especially of tracks that look a bit like Kyalami.

Yeah, and with thinking all over again Abu Dhabi would be cool, only to see it was nothing special, I've learnt myself to never judge things by its appearance (a lesson which I should've learnt long ago, by the way).

[eagleash]

Looks slightly better in this article but it's still not really worthy of Grand Prix racing.

How can you pass judgement before you seen a lap driven in anger?

I concur.

That's another problem with F1 at the moment. People are prepared to accept twiddley little tracks like this, because of money, instead of proper road racing. Doesn't matter what it drives like ADx is right, it's rubbish.

[DemocalypseNow]

We can say it's s**t cause we f***ing well can, that's how we can pass judgement! Screw your perfectionism, we're calling this one early.

Pergusa-Enna here we come...! (I wish)

[Aerospeed]

It's not as bad as Valencia and Singabore, however, I think this one could be on my "worst" five tracks in my opinion. And it's been Tilked, too! No need to explain further.

[Kobacrashi]

In my opinion it looks like a mixture of Spa and the Austrian track, i think it was the A1 ring or something. Which was in fairness not the worst track in history. Although it is a tad cheeky to show the elevations at a different scale, my guess is that the track will be about as hilly as China or maybe Malaysia, i do have some technical ability on this as i draw things like this as part of my job so not just a complete guess.

Basically i think that designing a track on a flat piece of land and trying to make it interesting is quite difficult, look for example at some of the classic tracks; Monaco, designed around a harbour, Spa on public roads and winding through forests, Melbourne around a lake and through a park even Suzuka which is on the side of a mountain/big hill. All the major features on these circuits are designed out of neccessity rather than decent work on behalf of Tilke/Generic architects. So all tracks that are made with the desire of good racing and generally not limited by space tend to be dull as without natural obsticles to avoid/negotiate they can only copy other tracks and therefore never be as good as the original.

Anyway, annoyed rant at the money grabbing direction of F1 over.

[Captain Hammer]

How can we pass judgement? Because we're obsessed with a sport with a glut of crap tracks which have made us highly judgemental......especially of tracks that look a bit like Kyalami.

Despite the fact the circuit was developed with input from the teams in order to make it as good as possible?

What I fail to understand is why so many people demand changes to the circuit to make the racing "better" when it's easier and cheaper to change the cars. Once the emphasis on excessive downforce is removed, good racing should be easy to come by. Yet you insist on demnding things be done the hard way.

[eagleash]

How can we pass judgement? Because we're obsessed with a sport with a glut of crap tracks which have made us highly judgemental......especially of tracks that look a bit like Kyalami.

Despite the fact the circuit was developed with input from the teams in order to make it as good as possible?

What I fail to understand is why so many people demand changes to the circuit to make the racing "better" when it's easier and cheaper to change the cars. Once the emphasis on excessive downforce is removed, good racing should be easy to come by. Yet you insist on demnding things be done the hard way.

As a long term spectator, it is my view that you cannot have good racing on twiddley go-kart tracks, changes to cars not withstanding.

[DemocalypseNow]

How can we pass judgement? Because we're obsessed with a sport with a glut of crap tracks which have made us highly judgemental......especially of tracks that look a bit like Kyalami.

Despite the fact the circuit was developed with input from the teams in order to make it as good as possible?

What I fail to understand is why so many people demand changes to the circuit to make the racing "better" when it's easier and cheaper to change the cars. Once the emphasis on excessive downforce is removed, good racing should be easy to come by. Yet you insist on demnding things be done the hard way.

As a long term spectator, it is my view that you cannot have good racing on twiddley go-kart tracks, changes to cars not withstanding.

They should manadate a 'test' touring car race before any circuit is approved for F1. If a bunch of saloon cars can't overtake on a circuit, what hope does a Formula One car have? (I'd call it the Adria Test...the only way anyone in the FIA GT race was able to pass was by spinning out the car in front).

[RLeb]

the track totally looks like current-day Kyalami:

[Nin13]

3D view shows that the track will not be completely flat!!

[Captain Hammer]

3D view shows that the track will not be completely flat!!

It won't be completely flat, but bear in mind that the picture says "5X SUPER-ELEVATED". It's exaggerated for our benefit.

And flat corners aren't neccesarily a bad thing - just look at Silverstone.

[mario]

How can we pass judgement? Because we're obsessed with a sport with a glut of crap tracks which have made us highly judgemental......especially of tracks that look a bit like Kyalami.

Despite the fact the circuit was developed with input from the teams in order to make it as good as possible?

What I fail to understand is why so many people demand changes to the circuit to make the racing "better" when it's easier and cheaper to change the cars. Once the emphasis on excessive downforce is removed, good racing should be easy to come by. Yet you insist on demnding things be done the hard way.

As a long term spectator, it is my view that you cannot have good racing on twiddley go-kart tracks, changes to cars not withstanding.

Ultimately, I feel that the reality probably lies between the two. Yes, it is true that the emphasis on aerodynamics means that the loss of grip behind another car makes it much harder to pass. However, it isn't just the total amount of downforce produced which is the issue, but how that downforce is produced, and the characteristics of the wings, body and other aero pieces. The current wings, for example, were not designed with the effects of the DDD in mind, so the attempts to reduce the effects of the loss of downforce (such as the neutral section in the centre of the wing) were negated.
The point is, just cutting downforce will not necessarily make the racing better in itself if done in an arbitrary fashion - you would have to carefully choose the elements which you cut, and adjust the parameters of other elements (such as the fineness of the wings), otherwise you could find yourself no better off, and perhaps even worse off.

But, in addition, the circuits do play their role as well. If the number of passing places is restricted to only one or two obvious places, then it becomes a lot easier to defend against somebody, as you know that you only need to defend going into one particular corner, because your opponent has to follow you in single line behind you.
For example, the Hungaroring has always been a track where passing is very rare, and even when you are driving a car with a substantial performance advantage, coupled to an aggressive driver, passing is near impossible - like Ayrton Senna trying to pass Thierry Boutsen in 1990, and where a number of attempts to pass (e.g. between Senna and Nannini) lead to collisions and one driver (in this case Nannini) out of the race.
OK, that is an extreme example, but it is true that there are a number of circuits where the chance to pass is quite limited - for example, Mangy Cours (where the only real place to pass was at the hairpin - yes, I know that F1 doesn't race there now, but there are attempts to bring F1 back to the circuit), or the Nurburgring (where your best chances are either into the first hairpin, or at the chicane just before the final corner).

[Waris]

This is just a thought: Maybe, after how legendary tracks of old were full of passing opportunities (I suspect this might be a bit exaggerated by our imagination, and also something to do with tracks being longer), circuit designers in the 80s and later deliberately designed circuits without many passing opportunities, in an attempt to make races exciting by forcing collisions?

[Phoenix]

This is just a thought: Maybe, after how legendary tracks of old were full of passing opportunities (I suspect this might be a bit exaggerated by our imagination, and also something to do with tracks being longer), circuit designers in the 80s and later deliberately designed circuits without many passing opportunities, in an attempt to make races exciting by forcing collisions?

If true, they should be careful for the drivers not to discover this.

[Waris]

This is just a thought: Maybe, after how legendary tracks of old were full of passing opportunities (I suspect this might be a bit exaggerated by our imagination, and also something to do with tracks being longer), circuit designers in the 80s and later deliberately designed circuits without many passing opportunities, in an attempt to make races exciting by forcing collisions?

If true, they should be careful for the drivers not to discover this.

lol inb4 Prost/Senna @ Suzuka 1989/1990.

[Phoenix]

This is just a thought: Maybe, after how legendary tracks of old were full of passing opportunities (I suspect this might be a bit exaggerated by our imagination, and also something to do with tracks being longer), circuit designers in the 80s and later deliberately designed circuits without many passing opportunities, in an attempt to make races exciting by forcing collisions?

If true, they should be careful for the drivers not to discover this.

lol inb4 Prost/Senna @ Suzuka 1989/1990.

Or the pileup at the 1998 Belgian GP!

[Waris]

If true, they should be careful for the drivers not to discover this.

lol inb4 Prost/Senna @ Suzuka 1989/1990.

Or the pileup at the 1998 Belgian GP!

Nah, that doesn't really count, because Spa-Francorchamps is an old track, and the cause of that crash was just weird in general and unrelated to there not being passing opportunities.

[Phoenix]

Nah, that doesn't really count, because Spa-Francorchamps is an old track, and the cause of that crash was just weird in general and unrelated to there not being passing opportunities.

And the collision between Senna and Prost was intentional, because Senna and Prost were fighting for the title, Senna scored the pole position, but he was starting from the dirt side of the track and FIA didn't let him exercise his right to choose the pole position side. Added to the fact Prost was 2nd on the grid and the events of last year, Senna was incensed enough to do whatever he had to do to win the title.

[Waris]

Nah, that doesn't really count, because Spa-Francorchamps is an old track, and the cause of that crash was just weird in general and unrelated to there not being passing opportunities.

And the collision between Senna and Prost was intentional, because Senna and Prost were fighting for the title, Senna scored the pole position, but he was starting from the dirt side of the track and FIA didn't let him exercise his right to choose the pole position side. Added to the fact Prost was 2nd on the grid and the events of last year, Senna was incensed enough to do whatever he had to do to win the title.

Exactly.
Edit: I mean, well, but still, the nature of the track facilitated it, to a certain extent. If that chicane wouldn't have been there, there wouldn't be such an easy spot for Senna to pick to take Prost out.

[DonTirri]

Exactly.
Edit: I mean, well, but still, the nature of the track facilitated it, to a certain extent. If that chicane wouldn't have been there, there wouldn't be such an easy spot for Senna to pick to take Prost out.

I think you got your collisions mixed. In 1989 Prost took Senna out at the chicane. In 1990 Senna took Prost out in the first corner.

And I think the chicane is silly anyway. Just like every other chicane in every other circuit.

[Phoenix]

Nah, that doesn't really count, because Spa-Francorchamps is an old track, and the cause of that crash was just weird in general and unrelated to there not being passing opportunities.

And the collision between Senna and Prost was intentional, because Senna and Prost were fighting for the title, Senna scored the pole position, but he was starting from the dirt side of the track and FIA didn't let him exercise his right to choose the pole position side. Added to the fact Prost was 2nd on the grid and the events of last year, Senna was incensed enough to do whatever he had to do to win the title.

Exactly.
Edit: I mean, well, but still, the nature of the track facilitated it, to a certain extent. If that chicane wouldn't have been there, there wouldn't be such an easy spot for Senna to pick to take Prost out.

He could have done so in every other circuit, even in Valencia.

[Archie2K]

Surely the reason old circuits are considered the best is due to natural selection. The best stay, and the worst are quietly dropped and forgotten from memory. Add in the fact that Spa, Suzuka and Silverstone regularly get a dash of rain that livens up any race. Give it ten years and see which Tilkedromes are still being used, and how good the racing they produce is.

[JeanDenisAlcatraz]

I predict Turkey will still be here. It's a great race track with an already legendary corner in a market which will only grow. I also predict that more and more seats will start to fill there as their economy continues to grow.

[watka]

I predict Turkey will still be here. It's a great race track with an already legendary corner in a market which will only grow. I also predict that more and more seats will start to fill there as their economy continues to grow.

I'm not so sure about that because Turkey is one of the races that seems to constantly have the axe over its neck. I believe they pay up a lot less than the other Tilkedromes to hold a GP, plus there is competition relatively near by from Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, and Qatar. Let's not also forget the podium ceremony were they got the president of Northern Cyprus (officially a non-existent country) to hand out a trophy...

Spa, Suzuka, and Silverstone have all been dropped from the calendar over the years as well. Fuji was meant to replace Suzuka permanently, Silverstone had to share with Brands Hatch, and Spa has had difficulty coughing up the money on many occasions, and may not have returned to the calendar after its modifications had Zolder been any good and not had the Villeneuve tragedy.

[eagleash]

Given the problems Delhi is having in organising the upcoming Commonwealth Games, there have been mutterings recently about whether the Indian F1 venue will be ready for Oct 2011.

Bernie says it will; so that's all right then. Isn't it Donington?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 027595.stm

[ADx_Wales]

The Delhi GP will be BUILT in time, but it will not be in any way "Ready"

[IdeFan]

Depends, I don't know any of the facts but it sounds like the Commonwealth games is mainly a government led project and the GP has heavy investment from private backers. Bernie says none of the commonwealth people are involved in the GP and that says "private" to me.

Now in my experience government projects are notoriously bad (just look at the London Olympics, Millennium Dome, Wembely Stadium) whereas private stuff tends to be a bit better organised. I think Bernie is right to be confident, at least at this early stage.

[Captain Hammer]

The circuit is being build by private contractors, overseen by Tilke GmbH. There won't be any of the problems experienced with the Commonwealth Games.

[thehemogoblin]

The circuit is being build by private contractors, overseen by Tilke GmbH. There won't be any of the problems experienced with the Commonwealth Games.

I wouldn't say "any," but it should be far more likely to end up on track.