Team Orders-gate: no punishment

coops · Post by **coops** » 08 Sep 2010, 08:26

Quickity quick! Before the results are published anyone fancy sticking down what they think will happen?

My vote:-

"Hefty" fine.

GwilymJJames · Post by **GwilymJJames** » 08 Sep 2010, 08:47

1 race ban, suspended for two years, plus an additional fine.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 Sep 2010, 09:07

The FIA wouldn't dare actually ban Ferrari from future races, especially not Monza. Perhaps do something to the results of the German GP and/or a fine. The perceived value of Ferrari to the F1 field is too great for me to see anything else happen.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 08 Sep 2010, 09:14

One-race ban to be served immediately.

Ferrari have threatened to launch legal action against the FIA if they are punished. If the FIA stripped them of their points, the courts could reinstate them later in the year, creating the ugly situation where the entire championship is decided by the courts, which would absolutely ruin a year of some of the best racing we've seen. But by banning Ferrari from a race, the most Ferrari could do is sue the FIA because it would be impossible to prove that they would have scored any points at the race they were forced to miss. If that race happens to be Monza, well, Ferrari have no-one to blame but themselves - and it sends a very clear message to the other teams: don't use team orders. I disagree that the FIA wouldn't dare ban Ferrari from Monza. You can't give someone an easier punishment just because they won't like it.

I also predict that if Ferrari launch legal action against the FIA, the FIA will suspend their 2011 grid application until such time as the matter is sorted out.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 08 Sep 2010, 09:26

Bugger all.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 08 Sep 2010, 09:43

I'll go for fine and suspended ban.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 08 Sep 2010, 10:21

Enforcer wrote:I'll go for fine and suspended ban.

Yeah.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » 08 Sep 2010, 10:36

It had better be something of real substance:

ferrari team will have to wear clown suits for the rest of the year, including big red noses, clown shoes and spinning bow ties.

Massa and Alonso made to stand in the corner during driver briefings

Massa and Alonso to write 'ferrari are cheats' 1000 times on the fia blackboard

All ferrari answers to press to be given after inhaling a lungful of helium.

If they refuse the helium all members of press to put fingers in ears and shout 'la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la' whenever a ferrari team member speaks.

di Monty to get a short back and sides haircut. Or a mullet.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 08 Sep 2010, 10:41

Captain Hammer wrote:One-race ban to be served immediately.

Ferrari have threatened to launch legal action against the FIA if they are punished. If the FIA stripped them of their points, the courts could reinstate them later in the year, creating the ugly situation where the entire championship is decided by the courts, which would absolutely ruin a year of some of the best racing we've seen. But by banning Ferrari from a race, the most Ferrari could do is sue the FIA because it would be impossible to prove that they would have scored any points at the race they were forced to miss. If that race happens to be Monza, well, Ferrari have no-one to blame but themselves - and it sends a very clear message to the other teams: don't use team orders. I disagree that the FIA wouldn't dare ban Ferrari from Monza. You can't give someone an easier punishment just because they won't like it.

I also predict that if Ferrari launch legal action against the FIA, the FIA will suspend their 2011 grid application until such time as the matter is sorted out.

So, what you're doing there is preempting the FIA, and preparing the ground to cry "cheats!" once a more lenient sentence is (inevitably) given. Conspiracy theories feed on themselves, you know? This isn't Old Max's court anymore; things are much more relaxed these days - thank God for Jean Todt.

Tombstone wrote:ferrari team will have to wear clown suits for the rest of the year, including big red noses, clown shoes and spinning bow ties.

Massa and Alonso made to stand in the corner during driver briefings

Massa and Alonso to write 'ferrari are cheats' 1000 times on the fia blackboard

All ferrari answers to press to be given after inhaling a lungful of helium.

If they refuse the helium all members of press to put fingers in ears and shout 'la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la' whenever a ferrari team member speaks.

di Monty to get a short back and sides haircut. Or a mullet.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 08 Sep 2010, 10:46

Suspended bans are for people who may learn not to do it again.

But this is Ferrari, they've done it enough times to warrant a one race ban.

But this is the FIA.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 08 Sep 2010, 10:49

Tombstone wrote:ferrari team will have to wear clown suits for the rest of the year, including big red noses, clown shoes and spinning bow ties.

Massa and Alonso made to stand in the corner during driver briefings

Massa and Alonso to write 'ferrari are cheats' 1000 times on the fia blackboard

All ferrari answers to press to be given after inhaling a lungful of helium.

If they refuse the helium all members of press to put fingers in ears and shout 'la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la' whenever a ferrari team member speaks.

di Monty to get a short back and sides haircut. Or a mullet.

Made my day :lol:

coops · Post by **coops** » 08 Sep 2010, 10:52

Tombstone wrote:ferrari team will have to wear clown suits for the rest of the year, including big red noses, clown shoes and spinning bow ties.

That sounds more like the sort of thing Red Bull might do as a promo thing at Monaco than a punishment.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Sep 2010, 11:13

They need not do anything. Ferrari have already been fined for their rule break.
Just announce that the rule is dropped forthwith. The teams want it dropped. So does Bernie.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 08 Sep 2010, 11:18

Eddie may be a drummer, but he's no Animal

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Sep 2010, 11:24

Interesting view from Damon

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... -rule.html

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » 08 Sep 2010, 11:50

eagleash wrote:They need not do anything. Ferrari have already been fined for their rule break.
Just announce that the rule is dropped forthwith. The teams want it dropped. So does Bernie.

So, ferrari get caught breaking a rule, receive a nominal (for them) fine, and the rule gets dropped. That will look really good, won't it.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 08 Sep 2010, 12:10

eagleash wrote:They need not do anything. Ferrari have already been fined for their rule break.

They were fined a hundred thousand dollars. They regularly spend four hundred million dollars in the course of a year. The fine did nothing - if anything, it prove that teams will gladly pay a hundred thousand dollars if it means a more-favourable championship result.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Sep 2010, 12:24

Tombstone wrote:
eagleash wrote:They need not do anything. Ferrari have already been fined for their rule break.
Just announce that the rule is dropped forthwith. The teams want it dropped. So does Bernie.

So, ferrari get caught breaking a rule and the rule gets dropped. That will look really good, won't it.

It will look better than the retention of an unworkable rule.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Sep 2010, 12:33

Captain Hammer wrote:
eagleash wrote:They need not do anything. Ferrari have already been fined for their rule break.

They were fined a hundred thousand dollars. They regularly spend four hundred million dollars in the course of a year. The fine did nothing - if anything, it prove that teams will gladly pay a hundred thousand dollars if it means a more-favourable championship result.

Then maybe the original fine should have been higher.
As it is, I suspect that any further financial penalty will be minimal & Ferrari may lose team points.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » 08 Sep 2010, 12:41

eagleash wrote:
Tombstone wrote:
eagleash wrote:They need not do anything. Ferrari have already been fined for their rule break.
Just announce that the rule is dropped forthwith. The teams want it dropped. So does Bernie.

So, ferrari get caught breaking a rule and the rule gets dropped. That will look really good, won't it.

It will look better than the retention of an unworkable rule.

I disagree, it will look like favouritism - just like the bad old days.

Maybe for 2011, but an immediate revokation would look very poor indeed.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 08 Sep 2010, 12:45

Ferrari due to be given the Hearing at 1500gmt.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » 08 Sep 2010, 12:46

ADx_Wales wrote:Ferrari due to be given the Hearing at 1500gmt.

1500L

Which is 1400 in real money.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 08 Sep 2010, 12:55

Damn 5Live on twitter!!! they said 15, do they not realise lol.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Sep 2010, 13:13

Tombstone wrote:
eagleash wrote:
Tombstone wrote:
So, ferrari get caught breaking a rule and the rule gets dropped. That will look really good, won't it.

It will look better than the retention of an unworkable rule.

I disagree, it will look like favouritism - just like the bad old days.

Maybe for 2011, but an immediate revokation would look very poor indeed.

I think it would look like common sense, but revocation for 2011 is more likely, agreed.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Sep 2010, 14:04

But here's what Maurice Hamilton thinks.....

RT @MauriceHamilton: Has the FIA the sense and the bottle to get rid of the stupid No Team Orders rule? We'll soon find out...

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 08 Sep 2010, 14:09

This punishment is not about the deployment of team orders.

Its the case that Ferrari applied them, but then said they didn't afterwards.

The Punishment should REALLY be the disqualification of BOTH cars from the German Grand Prix. In the same way that Lewis Hamilton's exclusion from the 2009 Australian GP was handled.

And I dont think the fine was the whole punishment, the 100grand fine was the most that could be given out after a race, the punishment for Hamilton was dealt in Sepang, its never too late.

RLeb · Post by **RLeb** » 08 Sep 2010, 14:22

I expect a fine, and points docked. Maybe they will be docked constructors points for the race (Germany).

FIA will always be easy on Ferrari. Especially with Jean Todt running the show.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 08 Sep 2010, 14:40

RLeb wrote:I expect a fine, and points docked. Maybe they will be docked constructors points for the race (Germany).

FIA will always be easy on Ferrari. Especially with Jean Todt running the show.

See, that's the problem. We're all assuming, and getting ready to read whatever we believe into it anyway.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Sep 2010, 14:45

CarlosFerreira wrote:
RLeb wrote:I expect a fine, and points docked. Maybe they will be docked constructors points for the race (Germany).

FIA will always be easy on Ferrari. Especially with Jean Todt running the show.

See, that's the problem. We're all assuming, and getting ready to read whatever we believe into it anyway.

JT is taking no part. I'm sure he'll endorse whatever the intelligent & independent minded members of the WMSC come up with......

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 08 Sep 2010, 15:07

CarlosFerreira wrote:
RLeb wrote:I expect a fine, and points docked. Maybe they will be docked constructors points for the race (Germany).

FIA will always be easy on Ferrari. Especially with Jean Todt running the show.

See, that's the problem. We're all assuming, and getting ready to read whatever we believe into it anyway.

Yes, half the people believe the FIA favour Ferrari, half the people believe the FIA are out to get them, and everyone seems to believe some kind of conspiracy or impropriety.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 08 Sep 2010, 15:19

fjackdaw wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
RLeb wrote:I expect a fine, and points docked. Maybe they will be docked constructors points for the race (Germany).

FIA will always be easy on Ferrari. Especially with Jean Todt running the show.

See, that's the problem. We're all assuming, and getting ready to read whatever we believe into it anyway.

Yes, half the people believe the FIA favour Ferrari, half the people believe the FIA are out to get them, and everyone seems to believe some kind of conspiracy or impropriety.

Exactly. And, as a result, I wouldn't want to sit in that court today.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 08 Sep 2010, 16:17

Maurice Hamilton just tweeted, no further punishment for Ferrari as a result of events in the German GP. More to come.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 08 Sep 2010, 16:25

If he proves to be correct, it'll be interesting to hear how exactly they wormed out of punishment... just a bit surprising

coops · Post by **coops** » 08 Sep 2010, 16:28

ADx_Wales wrote:Bugger all.

You win! Have ten points! And a lie-in tomorow!

jackanderton · Post by **jackanderton** » 08 Sep 2010, 16:29

This rather slapdash thing from BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 964502.stm

Ferrari have escaped further punishment for using banned team orders where driver are told what to do, according to the Italian motorsport federation.

It has also been reported that the sport's governing body, the FIA, will consider the rule banning team orders.

The decision was made at a World Motor Sport Council disciplinary hearing.

Ferrari were fined $100,000 (£65,100) for appearing to give Felipe Massa a coded message to allow Fernando Alonso through to win the German Grand Prix.

More to follow.

So...load up your derision.

Post by **mario** » 08 Sep 2010, 16:30

patrick wrote:If he proves to be correct, it'll be interesting to hear how exactly they wormed out of punishment... just a bit surprising

It looks as if he is correct - Autosport are quoting the words of the Italian Motorsport Federation's representative, who told the Reuters news agency that the WMSC have unanimously decided not to levy any penalties on Ferrari. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86478

So, ladies and gentlemen, betten down the hatches, because it looks as if we've got a pretty rocky reception ahead of us.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 08 Sep 2010, 16:33

mario wrote:So, ladies and gentlemen, betten down the hatches, because it looks as if we've got a pretty rocky reception ahead of us.

I've got me helmet on and I say - the FIA has just done The Right Thing. I will now hide in my trench.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 08 Sep 2010, 16:38

What an utter utterutter disgrace.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 08 Sep 2010, 16:45

Rabble rabble.

My response? Meh.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 08 Sep 2010, 16:50

CarlosFerreira wrote: I've got me helmet on and I say - the FIA has just done The Right Thing. I will now hide in my trench.

I agree with you, I'll help you dig. We'll build a trench as deep as the German trenches in the Battle of the Somme.