Austin 2012 - the anti-Tilke?

[coops]

I'm sober now.

Im drunk now Cap'n.

[Aerospeed]

It looks stupid. Just like every other piece of work Hermann Tilke creates.

Um, there's 20 official turns. 11 of them are left-handers: turns 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 19 and 20.

Altough the first turn is a left-hander. That's uncommon. Although it's also anti-clockwise; a left-hand first turn on a clockwise circuit is really rare. Magny-Cours is the only one I know of.

Istanbul?

[P_Friesacher]

Istanbul?

Is anti-clockwise.
However, I think the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve fits the description. And 1990ies Monza.
And Zolder, I think.

[Captain Hammer]

Adelaide does it, too. Sort of; the first corner is a left-right-left chicane. The point is that it's very uncommon to see a clockwise configuration with a left-hander as the first corner.

The anti-clockwise setup is also gaining popularity, it seems. We've got Interlagos, Abu Dhabi, Istanbul, Singapore, Korea and now Austin.

[mario]

Istanbul?

Is anti-clockwise.
However, I think the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve fits the description. And 1990ies Monza.
And Zolder, I think.

Zolder does start with a left hand turn, and is run clockwise (and it is a tricky left hand turn as well).
I believe that the modern Long Beach Street Circuit runs clockwise, with the first turn going to the left, and Paul Ricard has a kink to the left at the end of the main stright, which counts as the first turn.

[ADx_Wales]

The point is that it's very uncommon to see a clockwise configuration with a left-hander as the first corner.

Pre 76 Nurburgring
Pre 70s Spa
Zolder
Magny Cours
Pre-De Angelis Paul Ricard (HTTT era too)
Welkom Phakisa Freeway
Winton V8 Supercar Course
Mid Ohio Sportscar Course
Kirkistown (Northern Ireland)
Oschersleben
(Arguably) Pre 2000 Chicanes Monza
Pre-97 Vancouver Pacific Place
Macao

[Aerospeed]

Just found this. Lewis Hamilton is a better track designer than Hermann Tilke!



For the curious, Turn 2 is Magny Cours' Estoril, Turn 3 is Suzuka's 130R, Turn 4 is Spa-Francorchamps' Eau Rouge (without a doubt), and Turn 5 is Monaco's Turn 12, or Tabac.

Need the full article? BANG!

[Captain Hammer]

Lewis Hamilton is a better track designer than Hermann Tilke!

Actually ... he's not. Hamilton's circuit is almost entirely flat out; there's only two braking points in a lap and there is nowhere to overtake. All it will do is produce processional races. I recall reading someone on another forum was trying to make it in rFactor, but abandoned it after a series of early tests where no-one passed anyone else.

[Aerospeed]

Lewis Hamilton is a better track designer than Hermann Tilke!

Actually ... he's not. Hamilton's circuit is almost entirely flat out; there's only two braking points in a lap and there is nowhere to overtake. All it will do is produce processional races. I recall reading someone on another forum was trying to make it in rFactor, but abandoned it after a series of early tests where no-one passed anyone else.

Hmm... you do have a good point. It's better than Singabore, though. Just saying....

[mario]

Lewis Hamilton is a better track designer than Hermann Tilke!

Actually ... he's not. Hamilton's circuit is almost entirely flat out; there's only two braking points in a lap and there is nowhere to overtake. All it will do is produce processional races. I recall reading someone on another forum was trying to make it in rFactor, but abandoned it after a series of early tests where no-one passed anyone else.

Hmm... you do have a good point. It's better than Singabore, though. Just saying....

There are a number of things that are better then the Singapore circuit - watching a race at Singapore is two hours of sitting in a vegetative state whilst Bernie picks your pockets.

As for Hamilton's proposed track, the problem is that as a driver, what he wants is somewhat different from what we might want. What he wants is something fast and flowing (a bit like the old version of Monza, without the chicanes) that is a challenge to drive - most of the corners that he has chosen are high speed, full throttle affairs, and only one corner is below 100mph. Of course, if you are hardly on the throttle, it is a challenge for the engine designers and aero engineers, and probably a real buzz for the drivers, but it also means that there are few places where you actually have a chance of making up speed in a slower turn, take a different line or otherwise out do an opponent.
Which is where what we, circuit designer like Tilke and marketing men like Bernie come in. What they want is lots of action, where what you need are corners where you are traction limited (in other words, partial throttle corners), slower corners where you can try and do something different, long or awkward braking zones which lead to drivers making mistakes or being able to make up time (such as Turn 12 in Bahrein - personally, albeit based on driving sims, I think it is under rated as it really challenges a driver, because of the fact that the braking zone is curved, with the road dipping down and slightly away from the apex).

I do feel sorry for Tilke in some ways though, because he has several competing interests - the drivers want a flat out, pedal to the metal track, whilst the public want to see a combination of low and high speed corners which challenge a driver (because sometimes some of the more difficult corners are quite slow) yet create plenty of places to pass. Of course, Bernie wants a track which also has great aesthetics - it is also rumoured that he pressured Tilke to put in Turns 12 to 15 (that slow complex of corners) so the cars would be going more slowly, and therefore the sponsors logos would be easier to see - and facilities. Finally, the FIA has its own requirements regarding safety - related to run off areas, access roads (both emergency and general maintenance) and so forth - which place additional challenges. And, of course, there is the suitability of the site itself - the topography, load bearing capacity, drainage etc.

Putting that all together into a single package and managing to come up with a functional track is not easy, and we have seen how some of his rivals have well and truly screwed up - I think it was Captain Hammer who pointed out that his main rivals had made a right hash of a recent contract. Although not always the most exciting of tracks, we have seen that there have been a few shockers in the past that make Tilke's tracks look great by comparison.

[Archie2K]

Hamilton's track would be awful to pass on. The braking zone into Casino Square isn't nearly long enough and all the other corners are definitely single file only. What makes Eau Rouge, Pouhon, 130R and the Maggots/Becketts section great is the fact that they come with a decent straight afterwards into a braking zone. Screw up the corner and the lack of speed is with you all the way until the end of the straight.

That said, I've made a circuit that basically consists of a hairpin then into Lesmo, Curva Grande, Knickerbrook, Eau Rouge, hairpin, Blanchimont, Pouhon and 130R so I'm hardly better at merely ripping off other tracks!

[resir014]

That Austin track looks awful.

I could suggest:

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

Krautmeir Engineering meanwhile had something like this in mind.

[watka]

Krautmeir Engineering meanwhile had something like this in mind.

Isn't that St Jovite? If it is, it's in Canada.

[mario]

That Austin track looks awful.

I could suggest:

Watkins Glen? There are a couple of problems with the track as it stands, the biggest problem being the lack of run off areas. Without substantially increasing the run off area, the circuit will never have a Grade 1 classification from the FIA (it is currently category 2) - it was already considered to be very dangerous in the 1970's following the death of Cevert. The catch is, the area surrounding the track is heavily wooded, which would make expanding the circuit run off areas difficult.
Secondly, there is the additional problem that many of the facilities at the Glen are a little on the old and tired side, to put it kindly. OK, they are substantially redeveloping the circuit with brand new facilities, but it is going to be a while before they are ready, there aren't any major cities nearby where you might stay, or be able to draw a large crowd from.
Finally, the capacity as it stands is tiny - admittedly based on the Wikipedia entry, the official capacity of the track is only 41,000 - nowhere near enough paying punters for the circuit owners to afford to pay Bernie for the Grand Prix. From the aerial photos that I can see, the circuit has only got two major grand stands around the first turn, and not a huge amount of room to put more.

[mario]

Interesting article here on Autosport, where Tilke is defending his track designs, and reveals that after negotiations with Bernie Ecclestone, he has won permission to design more aggressive tracks in the future.

What is interesting is that he is defending the use of run off areas on two points - firstly, because the FIA demands that the tracks need to have a certain run off area for a corner of a certain speed. As a result, as he puts it:

"For example, nowadays you need the run-off areas. The FIA will not accept tracks without the run-off. Having wide run-offs is not ideal for the view - and is very different from the old tracks where the guardrail was right by the edge of the track. It used to be completely different, but in our times it is not possible to do that any more."

The other point is that, whilst we may focus on Formula 1 as a sport, the circuit owners don't exactly sit around twiddling their thumbs until next year. They need to bring in other series - Endurance Racing, Formula 2 or GP2, Formula 3 or GP3, WTCC and so forth. All of those other series will have their own demands for run off and circuit facilities.
The deal breaker, however, seems to be MotoGP, which shares a number of the circuits with Formula 1, and have very different requirements. A good example is Silverstone, where the track design ultimately had to be compromised slightly in order to accommodate the motorbike riders - and, furthermore, it seems that the motorbike riders have been very vocal in getting the run off areas changed.

"Then, remember, most track owners and investors want to have motorcycles too. And motorcycles have to have even more run-off, and different types. And some corners where for F1 or cars you do not need any run off, for motorcycles you need it. Then people criticise it and say, 'it is stupid to have this run off!'"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86442

It reminded me that during the MotoGP coverage of the race at Misano, the commentators mentioned that the riders are fans of tarmac run off areas, because the riders don't slow down abruptly when they go off the track. Although there is a potentially higher risk of the riders being injured from sliding across the tarmac (Capirossi had the skin on his right hand little finger stripped off due to a crash in Misano, and will be having surgery for his injuries), the probability of a more severe injury due to being pitched from the bike suddenly stopping, or tumbling across a gravel trap, has been reduced.

[Waris]

The person who created this thread either is, or is very "inspired" by Prisoner Monkeys from F1Fanatic.

[Captain Hammer]

Is.

[thehemogoblin]

Is.

Well, you're Captain Monkey now.

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

Krautmeir Engineering meanwhile had something like this in mind.

Isn't that St Jovite? If it is, it's in Canada.

Part of it is. Actually, not much.

[Aerospeed]

Krautmeir Engineering meanwhile had something like this in mind.

Isn't that St Jovite? If it is, it's in Canada.

Part of it is. Actually, not much.

Part of it is? It is cross-border? That's a weird location.

If so, then wherether country the pit lane is, that's the country of the grand prix. Or we can just throw in the title "North American Grand Prix" and get on with it.
That is a good idea, though.

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

I meant part of the track design incorporates Mont Tremblant. The rest is made up of Jerez, Estoril, Oulton Park and Adelaide.

But a North American GP ain't bad.

[madmark1974]

Part of it is? It is cross-border? That's a weird location.

If so, then wherether country the pit lane is, that's the country of the grand prix. Or we can just throw in the title "North American Grand Prix" and get on with it.
That is a good idea, though.

I also like that idea - here's my suggestion, a street race around Niagara Falls, you could cross over the river in which the falls are, which basically forms the USA/Canada border.

If Webber gets airborne again like at the Valencia street track, things could get very interesting ... Never mind going over the falls in a barrel .. A (can of) Red Bull would be better!

[Waris]

Part of it is? It is cross-border? That's a weird location.

If so, then wherether country the pit lane is, that's the country of the grand prix. Or we can just throw in the title "North American Grand Prix" and get on with it.
That is a good idea, though.

I also like that idea - here's my suggestion, a street race around Niagara Falls, you could cross over the river in which the falls are, which basically forms the USA/Canada border.

If Webber gets airborne again like at the Valencia street track, things could get very interesting ... Never mind going over the falls in a barrel .. A (can of) Red Bull would be better!

They could also have a race across the river from that one town in Ontario which is the only Canadian place south to the USA (can't remember its name).

[tommykl]

Toronto?

[ADx_Wales]

Maybe I've missed this suggestion/rumour earlier in the thread, but only one person (the owner) WANTS this race to be in Austin, the other people who live in Austin dont...

[CarlosFerreira]

Maybe I've missed this suggestion/rumour earlier in the thread, but only one person (the owner) WANTS this race to be in Austin, the other people who live in Austin dont...

Remember, in Western democracies we suffer from a post-NIMBYist syndrome called BANANA: Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything. Americans, because of a long-standing culture of independence with respect to government and corporations, are particularly vocal in that...

[ADx_Wales]

BANANA!!!! CARLOS THAT IS BATHPLUGGING GENIUS!!!...Hurt myself laughing.

[CarlosFerreira]

BANANA!!!! CARLOS THAT IS BATHPLUGGING GENIUS!!!...Hurt myself laughing.

Serious? Pretty old joke, mate. Had made it into Wikipedia and everything...

[ADx_Wales]

Well if you lived under a rock, like I do, the things you found funny years ago I'd be laughing my blown diffuser off today.

[CarlosFerreira]

Well if you lived under a rock, like I do, the things you found funny years ago I'd be laughing my blown diffuser off today.

Wales really is a far, remote place, huh?

Please don't kill me.

[ADx_Wales]

More Rocks than Sheep before anyone else chips in with their own personal cheap shots

[thehemogoblin]

More Rocks than Sheep before anyone else chips in with their own personal cheap shots

Your so-called "country" is horrible at every sport.

[DonTirri]

More Rocks than Sheep before anyone else chips in with their own personal cheap shots

Your so-called "country" is horrible at every sport.

Horrible enough to ride the coattails of the English and the Scottish (and to a degree, the northern irish) in any major sport outside Football

[ADx_Wales]

More Rocks than Sheep before anyone else chips in with their own personal cheap shots

Your so-called "country" is horrible at every sport.

Horrible enough to ride the coattails of the English and the Scottish (and to a degree, the northern irish) in any major sport outside Football

Its not an insult if I agree with you.
And I do.
The Welsh Football team being a shining example.
And no-one will beat Colin Jackson's ability to jump hurdles as fast as him anymore.
The Welsh Rugby team........well I just dont care about them anyways.
Tom Pryce is god though.