2010 Italian Grand Prix - Discussion

[GwilymJJames]

If the pitstops had been equal Button would have one.

But they weren't and he didn't.

[Sauber010]

FORZA FERARRIIIIIIIIIIIIII! YEAH

Wearing with proud my ferrari outfit !

Got the tears still istanding in my eyes of joy <3

Oh gosh.There really is always one, isn't there?
What was you opinion on the "Team orders-gate", by the way?

[CarlosFerreira]

You mean "good result". There was nothing good or interesting about that race.

I would say the exact opposite. I found Alonso's harrying of Button throughout the first two thirds of the race pretty gripping stuff, but was generally disappointed that Alonso got the win in the end.

I agree - up until Button's stop, we could see the gap between the two of them ebbing and flowing as each one improved slightly, although you knew that Alonso would eventually find a way past, as he did have the faster car overall. Still, Button did well to resist the pressure from Alonso for so many laps, whilst still putting in good lap times.

I respect your opinions guys, but disagree. Alonso holding on to Button may have been gripping, but there was no harrying in there. Alonso was always too far, and either pulled out to nominally show himself to Button, or to get some cool air. I'm sorry, I found today's race Bahrain-boring.

[fjackdaw]

Alonso didn't win the race it was the Ferrari mechanics. If the pitstops had been equal Button would have won. None of Alonso's "wins" this year have been deserved - in Bahrain it was Vettel's problem, in Hockenheim it was team orders, and now this. He is the most overrated driver in F1. If he wins the title it will be a disgrace.

Plus LOADS of "wins" (why that's in speech marks, I'm not sure) come from other people's misfortunes and good pit stops. Are none of them deserved? Or is it just the Alonso ones?

[CarlosFerreira]

FORZA FERARRIIIIIIIIIIIIII! YEAH

Wearing with proud my ferrari outfit !

Got the tears still istanding in my eyes of joy <3

Oh gosh.There really is always one, isn't there?
What was you opinion on the "Team orders-gate", by the way?

There's a thread for discussing that, lads. This is about the race, OK?

[tc3j3r]

Plus all the other laps spent racing Button. It's a team effort.

Would you be saying the same thing if the situation had been reversed and Button had jumped Alonso in his pit stop?

Exactly, it's a team effort. I never said that Ferrari didn't deserve to win, on the contrary, it was the Ferrari mechanics that won the race, not Alonso. And as for keeping up with Button, that wasn't too difficult considering Button was missing a chunk of diffuser...

[CarlosFerreira]

Alonso didn't win the race it was the Ferrari mechanics. If the pitstops had been equal Button would have won. None of Alonso's "wins" this year have been deserved - in Bahrain it was Vettel's problem, in Hockenheim it was team orders, and now this. He is the most overrated driver in F1. If he wins the title it will be a disgrace.

Plus LOADS of "wins" (why that's in speech marks, I'm not sure) come from other people's misfortunes and good pit stops. Are none of them deserved? Or is it just the Alonso ones?

Come on, tc3j3r. Give monobrow a break, Alonso has done well to win this one!

[fjackdaw]

Plus all the other laps spent racing Button. It's a team effort.

Would you be saying the same thing if the situation had been reversed and Button had jumped Alonso in his pit stop?

Exactly, it's a team effort. I never said that Ferrari didn't deserve to win, on the contrary, it was the Ferrari mechanics that won the race, not Alonso. And as for keeping up with Button, that wasn't too difficult considering Button was missing a chunk of diffuser...

But all Grands Prix are a team effort... Alonso put in a sufficiently good drive to enable the mechanics to do a sufficiently quick pit stop, just as Button would have put in a sufficiently good drive to enable the mechanics to do a sufficiently quick pit stop had he kept the lead. I'm not sure why it's such a bad thing today when this has been the story of F1 for the last few decades.

[DemocalypseNow]

Yamamoto's accident.

As you can see, the guy is working out of Yamamoto's sight. The lollipop man lets him go...so clearly his fault. This may escape Yamamoto from possible ROTR status

[tc3j3r]

Plus all the other laps spent racing Button. It's a team effort.

Would you be saying the same thing if the situation had been reversed and Button had jumped Alonso in his pit stop?

Exactly, it's a team effort. I never said that Ferrari didn't deserve to win, on the contrary, it was the Ferrari mechanics that won the race, not Alonso. And as for keeping up with Button, that wasn't too difficult considering Button was missing a chunk of diffuser...

But all Grands Prix are a team effort... Alonso put in a sufficiently good drive to enable the mechanics to do a sufficiently quick pit stop, just as Button would have put in a sufficiently good drive to enable the mechanics to do a sufficiently quick pit stop had he kept the lead. I'm not sure why it's such a bad thing today when this has been the story of F1 for the last few decades.

The reason I'm annoyed is the fact that Alonso has had all lucky wins and no deserved wins so far this year. It's true that I'm biased, but no F1 fan is unbiased... But lets end this argument. This is my last post in this topic.

[Sauber010]

FORZA FERARRIIIIIIIIIIIIII! YEAH

Wearing with proud my ferrari outfit !

Got the tears still istanding in my eyes of joy <3

Oh gosh.There really is always one, isn't there?
What was you opinion on the "Team orders-gate", by the way?

There's a thread for discussing that, lads. This is about the race, OK?

I was more going for the intense "Ferrari wins tonight, Ferrari is god to me, Ferrari can never do wrong" angle.
Sorry for unintentionally dragging this away from the race.

To my dismay, i would not be surprised if the stewards cast an eye over the Hulkenberg-temporarly-losing-steering-for-half-a-second-every-lap incidents in the following hours.

But then again, we are talking about F1 stewards here.....

[CarlosFerreira]

I was more going for the intense "Ferrari wins tonight, Ferrari is god to me, Ferrari can never do wrong" angle.
Sorry for unintentionally dragging this away from the race.

No problem. Just don't drag it into the personal angle or name-calling - and apart from that I am all for tarring Ferrari and covering them in white feathers.

[Ferrim]

Alonso didn't win the race it was the Ferrari mechanics. If the pitstops had been equal Button would have won. None of Alonso's "wins" this year have been deserved - in Bahrain it was Vettel's problem, in Hockenheim it was team orders, and now this. He is the most overrated driver in F1. If he wins the title it will be a disgrace.

This kind of post belongs to the Autosport Forums I think. To call a WC "a disgrace" just because you didn't like the way his wins came is going a bit too far...

[Sauber010]

I am all for tarring Ferrari and covering them in white feathers.

Will the Korean GP be forced to run on dirt due to the extreme lack of tar available after the entire Tifosi follow suit?

Webber leading after the Red Bull 'points saving' rounds. Have Ferrari developed their car enough over the summer break mount a challenge on the higher downforce tracks, or was this win a shoe in, showing the best characteristics of the F10?

[patrick]

there are some disgraces we can agree on, firstly that Flav was on the grid again, although they can't stop him, it was a shame brundle decided to give him some attention - not that i could understand anything he said
secondly, it was a shame to hear that karun chandhok got robbed outside a restaurant last night (at monza). hopefully he gets his belongings back.

And while alonso clearly drove a good race, I don't like his wing prodding. he did the same to felipe at silverstone and the Briton in me wants to say he was trying to slice jenson's tires too - and he arguably succeeded by knocking off some diffuser.

[fjackdaw]

The reason I'm annoyed is the fact that Alonso has had all lucky wins and no deserved wins so far this year. It's true that I'm biased, but no F1 fan is unbiased... But lets end this argument. This is my last post in this topic.

At least you admit you're biassed, which is more than many do! Actually, Alonso deserved two of his three wins so far this year - like I say, it's a large part of racing that people ahead will have problems, or some pitstops will go better than others. By that rationale, no WDC and probably only a half of wins over the last two decades have been deserved.

[Ed24]

Here's a video of Yamamoto's pit incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39kbeW2C3-o&feature=player_embedded

A frightening incident, I don't know what the lolly pop man was thinking!

[mario]

there are some disgraces we can agree on, firstly that Flav was on the grid again, although they can't stop him, it was a shame brundle decided to give him some attention - not that i could understand anything he said
secondly, it was a shame to hear that karun chandhok got robbed outside a restaurant last night (at monza). hopefully he gets his belongings back.

And while alonso clearly drove a good race, I don't like his wing prodding. he did the same to felipe at silverstone and the Briton in me wants to say he was trying to slice jenson's tires too - and he arguably succeeded by knocking off some diffuser.

It just doesn't ever seem to go right for Chandhok at the moment, does it? At least he didn't loose everything, but even so, it must have been quite a stressful evening down the police station.
As for Alonso's wing prodding, I think that suggesting that he wanted to try and sabotage Button is going a little too far - I think that it was more down to the fact that he was trying to keep in touch with Button, and simply got on the throttle a bit too quickly.

[CarlosFerreira]

I have to get this off my chest, really...

[rant]
How was it that Jenson Button, great driver though he is, was able to stay calmly ahead of Fernando Alonso's Ferrari, despite the fact he was running a rear wing set up more akin to a parachute than to an aero device? What the hell has F1 come to? Button's car was the slowest through the speed traps, the Ferrari was among the fastest, Button had bits missing from his diffuser - and still one of the most aggressive drivers on the grid couldn't get close enough to make a move on him!

Seriously, somebody needs to look at this race and figure out what's wrong. The same thing with the everlasting tyres, while you're at it. It's ridiculous.

Thank you, and good night.
[/rant]

[fjackdaw]

I have to get this off my chest, really...

[rant]
How was it that Jenson Button, great driver though he is, was able to stay calmly ahead of Fernando Alonso's Ferrari, despite the fact he was running a rear wing set up more akin to a parachute than to an aero device? What the hell has F1 come to? Button's car was the slowest through the speed traps, the Ferrari was among the fastest, Button had bits missing from his diffuser - and still one of the most aggressive drivers on the grid couldn't get close enough to make a move on him!
[/rant]

Because he had the extra downforce required to keep him ahead in the corners. While Alonso had more speed on the straights, the straights were never quite long enough for him to be able to pass Button. Button had the quicker car throughout the rest of the lap, where downforce counted for more.

[shinji]

Here's a video of Yamamoto's pit incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39kbeW2C3-o&feature=player_embedded

A frightening incident, I don't know what the lolly pop man was thinking!

Terms of use violation.

[CarlosFerreira]

And now for something completely different: Vettel's problem wasn't anything to do with the engine, it was actually the bakes jamming on for a bit.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86668

[Cynon]

Renault's old trick of picking number 1 and number 2 is back.

Typical.

[CarlosFerreira]

Renault's old trick of picking number 1 and number 2 is back.

Typical.

Actually, where the heck was Petrov all weekend? I can't remember even seeing the fellow.

[Tealy]

Renault's old trick of picking number 1 and number 2 is back.

Typical.

Actually, where the heck was Petrov all weekend? I can't remember even seeing the fellow.

He was sitting in 10th most of the race but fell back to 13th somewhere near the end for reasons unknown to me. Perhaps he had a pit strategy similar to Vettel's and dropped out of the points then.

[patrick]

Here's a video of Yamamoto's pit incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39kbeW2C3-o&feature=player_embedded

A frightening incident, I don't know what the lolly pop man was thinking!

Terms of use violation.

Probably for the best really, it explains why it wasn't shown on TV either - he really did get quite a wallop as the car charged (well, as much as a HRT can charge) out of the box. it wasn't very pleasant to see

[watka]

Soft tyres last the entire race. What a travesty.

I hope Pirelli will make tires whose performance differential actually matters and which will allow more strategy. Seriously, IMO they should just ban drivers from talking bad about tires so there would be less fear of negative PR.

Here's an idea; no fuel or tyre stops allowed in any race.

[FullMetalJack]

I'm gonna say unlucky to Mr.Anonymous of 2010, Sebastien Buemi. Unlucky on not getting a point. He was 10th for most of the race and next thing I saw, Rubens scored the point.

[eytl]

I'm surprised that there's been little discussion about how Red Bull brought Webber in straight after Kubica and gained zero advantage in the pits, whereas they kept Vettel out there and he managed to leapfrog the lot of them, including Rosberg.

Or is that just because it's not as controversial as it looks and there's not that much to discuss? (<------- hinting at my personal opinion)

[fjackdaw]

I'm surprised that there's been little discussion about how Red Bull brought Webber in straight after Kubica and gained zero advantage in the pits, whereas they kept Vettel out there and he managed to leapfrog the lot of them, including Rosberg.

Or is that just because it's not as controversial as it looks and there's not that much to discuss? (<------- hinting at my personal opinion)

Perhaps one conspiracy theory (the well-timed but temporary engine gremlin) cancels out the other.

[ADx_Wales]

And to rub salt into the wound, James Allen was asking the questions in the press conference.

Here's to another crap weekend.

[mario]

I'm surprised that there's been little discussion about how Red Bull brought Webber in straight after Kubica and gained zero advantage in the pits, whereas they kept Vettel out there and he managed to leapfrog the lot of them, including Rosberg.

Or is that just because it's not as controversial as it looks and there's not that much to discuss? (<------- hinting at my personal opinion)

Normally there would be an advantage in pitting early - we've seen a number of occasions where a driver has been several tenths of a second a lap, if not more, faster when changing tyres (for example, at Spa, part of the reason that Sutil could breeze past Schumacher was down to the fact he had just changed tyres, and had just set the fastest lap of the race on his first flying lap). So, normally, when you have two drivers in a close fight, if one pits, the other will want to pit soon afterwards to cover them off (for example, Alonso pitted two laps after Button, and Massa very shortly afterwards) - as was the case here with Webber and Kubica.
However, Monza is a little unusual compared to most circuits. The track was very well rubbered in, thanks to the GP2 races and the fact that the weather was dry (i.e. any rubber laid down stayed there), and although we might have criticised Bridgestone for bringing durable tyres (including myself to a certain extent), Monza doesn't have that many high speed corners which will heavily load up a tyre. In addition, thanks to that DDD loophole, the cars are producing a lot more downforce then they normally would, even for a Monza spec set up, which would stop the car sliding about quite as much as they normally would (and it is when the car slides, and shears the surface of the tyre, that you start having big problems with tyre degradation).

So, basically, what Red Bull decided to do was mimic the strategy used by Kobayashi in Valencia - run for as long as was humanly possible on those soft tyres whilst they still offered you grip, and only when you either had to switch, or they dropped off, would you switch.

And to rub salt into the wound, James Allen was asking the questions in the press conference.

Here's to another crap weekend.

No, what really rubs salt into the wounds would be what has subsequently happened to HRT - a $20,000 fine for that accident involving the mechanic being run over. http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1 ... ent-40.pdf

[Shizuka]

I'm surprised that there's been little discussion about how Red Bull brought Webber in straight after Kubica and gained zero advantage in the pits, whereas they kept Vettel out there and he managed to leapfrog the lot of them, including Rosberg.

Or is that just because it's not as controversial as it looks and there's not that much to discuss? (<------- hinting at my personal opinion)

It is controversial. Also, in my eyes, Vettel's "engine problem" seems to be making the Red Bull hierarchy a bit more upside down. Now are they going to finally decide who to support in the fly-aways?

Clearly, there was one + for Webber, and then, because of Bridgestone's "soft" (yes, used "-s) tires could last all the race (what they clearly should NOT do), Vettel got ahead of Webber as well.

[CarlosFerreira]

I'm surprised that there's been little discussion about how Red Bull brought Webber in straight after Kubica and gained zero advantage in the pits, whereas they kept Vettel out there and he managed to leapfrog the lot of them, including Rosberg.

Or is that just because it's not as controversial as it looks and there's not that much to discuss? (<------- hinting at my personal opinion)

They were very square in that one, yeah. It's the same error McLaren committed, in essence.

[Phoenix]

No, what really rubs salt into the wounds would be what has subsequently happened to HRT - a $20,000 fine for that accident involving the mechanic being run over. http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1 ... ent-40.pdf

Another unfair penalty imposed to a Spanish by the FIA. That lollipop man was human and, as such, he can make a mistake. And the Saurus penalized for cutting a chicane, but the stewards refused to investigate Hülkenberg? What's going one with these idiots?

[Yannick]

I'm sorry, I found today's race Bahrain-boring.

So did I.

[Pedestrian]

The race was so-and-so, and the first laps were really good, at least in my opinion. It is indeed a bit frustrating that after all these reforms we still have races decide in the pits, but it wasn't really a bad race.

The problem I think is that the older "classical" circuits are overhyped and thus have a great potential to dissapoint. Probably if you had seen this race on Bahrain or another new circuit you would have liked it.

[watka]

No, what really rubs salt into the wounds would be what has subsequently happened to HRT - a $20,000 fine for that accident involving the mechanic being run over. http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1 ... ent-40.pdf

Another unfair penalty imposed to a Spanish by the FIA. That lollipop man was human and, as such, he can make a mistake. And the Saurus penalized for cutting a chicane, but the stewards refused to investigate Hülkenberg? What's going one with these idiots?

The bottom line is that it was an unsafe release. What's more, HRT shouldn't have been in any sort of rush because they were dead last.